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Math puzzle #2 - Page 2

Blogs > LastPrime
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 All
Steve496
Profile Joined July 2009
United States60 Posts
September 10 2010 06:36 GMT
#21
Why does CRT force d=p^n?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 06:54:09
September 10 2010 06:43 GMT
#22
On September 10 2010 15:30 gondolin wrote:
We may assume by the CRT that d=p^n, with p odd, the case p=2 being trivial.
Now by induction, there exist N such that 2^N+N=0 mod phi(d).
Write 2^N+N + k phi(d) =0.
Then 2^(N+k phi(d)) + (N + k phi(d)) = 2^N+N+k phi(d) = 0 mod p^n.
CQFD.


Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 13:20 mieda wrote:
Now back to preparing lecture notes for serre duality and its applications to riemann roch type theorems..


Nice. Will you use it to prove the Hasse-Weil theorem on the zeta function of algebraic curve? From what I remember you can prove it without the classical proof from Weil with Jacobians by clever user of the Riemann-Roch (the hardest part being the Riemann hypothesis, with Jacobians you have the Rosati involution, here I don't remember how you do it).

By the way I infer from your signature that you are working on Complex Multiplication? That's one of the most beautiful area in Mathematics (according to Hilbert )!


Riemann Roch is useful for just about everything involving curves (ofc there is an analogue for surfaces.. but the formulas get nasty when dimensions rise)! I'm preparing the notes as a background for students who are starting to count dimensions of automorphic forms of various weights. They'll need to know some dimension theory on the complex surfaces formed from congruence subgroups, and that's just riemann roch ^^. Actually you don't need serre duality for proof of riemann roch theorems, especially if one is only working over the complexes, but the idea is nice enough

I'm not really working on complex multiplication per se. That's more lower dimension (i.e. elliptic curves). Of course there are analogues for higher dimensional abelian varieties, but the thing I work on is nice combinatorial descriptions (if I can!) of cohomology of rapoport-zink spaces.

Also, you should probably fill in more detail for reduction to d = p^n case. Chinese Remainder Theorem directly doesn't apply, as you will see. The problem is that the modulus are not pair-wise coprime when you apply it directly. But it just takes a little more work to get it to work.

Are you working on math also?
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 06:51:59
September 10 2010 06:44 GMT
#23
On September 10 2010 15:36 Steve496 wrote:
Why does CRT force d=p^n?


It doesn't, not directly at least. You still need to work a little bit to reduce to the d = p^n case. The moduli are not pair-wise coprime when you try to apply it directly, but just takes a little more massage to get it to work.
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 06:58:29
September 10 2010 06:55 GMT
#24
+ Show Spoiler +
Solution


Other nice problem
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
September 10 2010 07:50 GMT
#25
On September 10 2010 15:43 mieda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 15:30 gondolin wrote:
We may assume by the CRT that d=p^n, with p odd, the case p=2 being trivial.
Now by induction, there exist N such that 2^N+N=0 mod phi(d).
Write 2^N+N + k phi(d) =0.
Then 2^(N+k phi(d)) + (N + k phi(d)) = 2^N+N+k phi(d) = 0 mod p^n.
CQFD.


On September 10 2010 13:20 mieda wrote:
Now back to preparing lecture notes for serre duality and its applications to riemann roch type theorems..


Nice. Will you use it to prove the Hasse-Weil theorem on the zeta function of algebraic curve? From what I remember you can prove it without the classical proof from Weil with Jacobians by clever user of the Riemann-Roch (the hardest part being the Riemann hypothesis, with Jacobians you have the Rosati involution, here I don't remember how you do it).

By the way I infer from your signature that you are working on Complex Multiplication? That's one of the most beautiful area in Mathematics (according to Hilbert )!


Riemann Roch is useful for just about everything involving curves (ofc there is an analogue for surfaces.. but the formulas get nasty when dimensions rise)! I'm preparing the notes as a background for students who are starting to count dimensions of automorphic forms of various weights. They'll need to know some dimension theory on the complex surfaces formed from congruence subgroups, and that's just riemann roch ^^. Actually you don't need serre duality for proof of riemann roch theorems, especially if one is only working over the complexes, but the idea is nice enough


Yes, the "nice" generalisation is Grothendieck-Riemann-Roch, but it is harder to expose
(But I still find it beautiful that Riemann-Roch is a relative theorem)


I'm not really working on complex multiplication per se. That's more lower dimension (i.e. elliptic curves). Of course there are analogues for higher dimensional abelian varieties, but the thing I work on is nice combinatorial descriptions (if I can!) of cohomology of rapoport-zink spaces.


Well Complex Multiplication on elliptic curves is known since Kronecker. (The fact that the j-invariant give the Hilbert class field of Imaginary Quadratic fields). The work of Shimura was to generalize this to abelian varieties. (The modular invariants of an abelian variety with CM by K lies in the Hilbert class field of the reflex field + the reciprocity law expressing the action of the Galois group in term of the type norm of the ideals of the reflex field.)


Also, you should probably fill in more detail for reduction to d = p^n case. Chinese Remainder Theorem directly doesn't apply, as you will see. The problem is that the modulus are not pair-wise coprime when you apply it directly. But it just takes a little more work to get it to work.

Are you working on math also?


Yeah that's true, you need to keep track of the congruent relations of the N_i solution for p_i to verify you can "glue" the solutions. (That's funny how the point of view change, before I thought of the CRT as an arithmetic statement, now when I think about it I visualize it as local sections over Spec(Z/NZ) that we try to glue).

I have a background in mathematics, but now I am working on computer science By the way I see that you are from Harvard. Do you know Sophie Morel? She attended the same "college" as me and is very good
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 08:21:41
September 10 2010 07:55 GMT
#26

Yeah that's true, you need to keep track of the congruent relations of the N_i solution for p_i to verify you can "glue" the solutions. (That's funny how the point of view change, before I thought of the CRT as an arithmetic statement, now when I think about it I visualize it as local sections over Spec(Z/NZ) that we try to glue).


Yea, that's actually a nice way to visualize it.


I have a background in mathematics, but now I am working on computer science By the way I see that you are from Harvard. Do you know Sophie Morel? She attended the same "college" as me and is very good



Oh good. Yes, of course I know Sophie Morel, she's a new professor here. But I don't see her here nowadays. I presume she's visiting IAS now with the big number theory thing going on there this year.

It's interesting to see another person who did math in TL.net ^^.
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
September 10 2010 08:21 GMT
#27

It's interesting to see another person who did math in TL.net ^^. Did you play SC also?


There is a user (Muirhead I think) that is also doing math (he works on algebraic geometry in MIT).
Yeah I discovered SC when I went to the "college" I mentioned. I played warcraft 3 before, but once I discovered SC i switched
Ivs
Profile Joined January 2008
Australia139 Posts
September 10 2010 12:08 GMT
#28
There is a generalisation to this:
Fixing any a, d, k, and gcd(d,k)=1
ka^x = x mod d
always has infinitely many solutions x.

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

let x=ka^y mod d
then all we need to do is to find infinitely many y satisfying
a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
But since for any a, powers of a in mod d eventually cycles in period phi(d), it is sufficient to find infinitely many solutions to
ka^y = y mod phi(d)
now phi(d)<d so this is the same problem in a smaller mod. The result is certain true for d=1, induction cleans up the rest.


Setting a=2, k=-1 solves your question =).
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
September 10 2010 13:04 GMT
#29
On September 10 2010 17:21 gondolin wrote:
Show nested quote +

It's interesting to see another person who did math in TL.net ^^. Did you play SC also?


There is a user (Muirhead I think) that is also doing math (he works on algebraic geometry in MIT).
Yeah I discovered SC when I went to the "college" I mentioned. I played warcraft 3 before, but once I discovered SC i switched

And I just finished my undergrad in Math! Yay! Now doing some work in Topology :3
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 15:24:09
September 10 2010 15:23 GMT
#30
On September 10 2010 21:08 Ivs wrote:
There is a generalisation to this:
Fixing any a, d, k, and gcd(d,k)=1
ka^x = x mod d
always has infinitely many solutions x.

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

let x=ka^y mod d
then all we need to do is to find infinitely many y satisfying
a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
But since for any a, powers of a in mod d eventually cycles in period phi(d), it is sufficient to find infinitely many solutions to
ka^y = y mod phi(d)
now phi(d)<d so this is the same problem in a smaller mod. The result is certain true for d=1, induction cleans up the rest.


Setting a=2, k=-1 solves your question =).


The problem is that x = ka^y mod d doesn't imply a^(ka^y) = a^x (mod d).
Ivs
Profile Joined January 2008
Australia139 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 16:07:47
September 10 2010 15:55 GMT
#31
On September 11 2010 00:23 mieda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 10 2010 21:08 Ivs wrote:
There is a generalisation to this:
Fixing any a, d, k, and gcd(d,k)=1
ka^x = x mod d
always has infinitely many solutions x.

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

let x=ka^y mod d
then all we need to do is to find infinitely many y satisfying
a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
But since for any a, powers of a in mod d eventually cycles in period phi(d), it is sufficient to find infinitely many solutions to
ka^y = y mod phi(d)
now phi(d)<d so this is the same problem in a smaller mod. The result is certain true for d=1, induction cleans up the rest.


Setting a=2, k=-1 solves your question =).


The problem is that x = ka^y mod d doesn't imply a^(ka^y) = a^x (mod d).


I didn't say it implies, rather, it is suffice to solve the second equation to obtain a solution to the first.

edit: More specifically,
If x = ka^y, then
ka^x = x mod d if and only if a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-10 19:55:57
September 10 2010 17:07 GMT
#32
On September 11 2010 00:55 Ivs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 00:23 mieda wrote:
On September 10 2010 21:08 Ivs wrote:
There is a generalisation to this:
Fixing any a, d, k, and gcd(d,k)=1
ka^x = x mod d
always has infinitely many solutions x.

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

let x=ka^y mod d
then all we need to do is to find infinitely many y satisfying
a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
But since for any a, powers of a in mod d eventually cycles in period phi(d), it is sufficient to find infinitely many solutions to
ka^y = y mod phi(d)
now phi(d)<d so this is the same problem in a smaller mod. The result is certain true for d=1, induction cleans up the rest.


Setting a=2, k=-1 solves your question =).


The problem is that x = ka^y mod d doesn't imply a^(ka^y) = a^x (mod d).


I didn't say it implies, rather, it is suffice to solve the second equation to obtain a solution to the first.

edit: More specifically,
If x = ka^y, then
ka^x = x mod d if and only if a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d


Sure, but when k < 0 you're raising a to a negative power. For example in our case a = 2 and k = -1, you're saying -2^x = x (mod d) iff 2^(-2^y) = 2^y mod d, and how will you interpret 2^(-2^y) ? it's not an integer.

Also, in your original proof you wrote x = ka^y (mod d), thus sufficient to solve a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d, from which I thought that you seemed to be saying that if x = ka^y (mod d) then a^x = a^(ka^y) mod d, which isn't true.

Remark: When k > 0, the remark I made earlier in this thread is exactly this method. This solution doesn't seem to work, because we have k < 0 now. I made the remark that when we have to solve 2^N = N (mod d) and not 2^N = -N (mod d), then it's a bit easier.

Edit: There is a way to fix this argument, and that is to choose k so that gcd(d,k) = 1 and k > 0 by adding d to it sufficient number of times.
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
September 10 2010 17:23 GMT
#33
This exercise taught me a useful lesson in how the normal conditions given for CRT are stronger than necessary
You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 10 2010 19:06 GMT
#34
On September 11 2010 02:23 KristianJS wrote:
This exercise taught me a useful lesson in how the normal conditions given for CRT are stronger than necessary


The exercise has served its purpose!

Ivs
Profile Joined January 2008
Australia139 Posts
September 11 2010 02:30 GMT
#35
On September 11 2010 02:07 mieda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 11 2010 00:55 Ivs wrote:
On September 11 2010 00:23 mieda wrote:
On September 10 2010 21:08 Ivs wrote:
There is a generalisation to this:
Fixing any a, d, k, and gcd(d,k)=1
ka^x = x mod d
always has infinitely many solutions x.

Proof:
+ Show Spoiler +

let x=ka^y mod d
then all we need to do is to find infinitely many y satisfying
a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d
But since for any a, powers of a in mod d eventually cycles in period phi(d), it is sufficient to find infinitely many solutions to
ka^y = y mod phi(d)
now phi(d)<d so this is the same problem in a smaller mod. The result is certain true for d=1, induction cleans up the rest.


Setting a=2, k=-1 solves your question =).


The problem is that x = ka^y mod d doesn't imply a^(ka^y) = a^x (mod d).


I didn't say it implies, rather, it is suffice to solve the second equation to obtain a solution to the first.

edit: More specifically,
If x = ka^y, then
ka^x = x mod d if and only if a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d


Sure, but when k < 0 you're raising a to a negative power. For example in our case a = 2 and k = -1, you're saying -2^x = x (mod d) iff 2^(-2^y) = 2^y mod d, and how will you interpret 2^(-2^y) ? it's not an integer.

Also, in your original proof you wrote x = ka^y (mod d), thus sufficient to solve a^(ka^y) = a^y mod d, from which I thought that you seemed to be saying that if x = ka^y (mod d) then a^x = a^(ka^y) mod d, which isn't true.

Remark: When k > 0, the remark I made earlier in this thread is exactly this method. This solution doesn't seem to work, because we have k < 0 now. I made the remark that when we have to solve 2^N = N (mod d) and not 2^N = -N (mod d), then it's a bit easier.

Edit: There is a way to fix this argument, and that is to choose k so that gcd(d,k) = 1 and k > 0 by adding d to it sufficient number of times.


I did impose gcd(d,k) = 1, read the whole thing =P. You are right about the negative part though, and yup it is easily fixed.
mieda
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States85 Posts
September 11 2010 02:36 GMT
#36

I did impose gcd(d,k) = 1, read the whole thing =P. You are right about the negative part though, and yup it is easily fixed.


I read the whole thing. Only the $k > 0$ is meant to be new. You should read my last sentencen as "gcd(d,k) = 1" *and also* "k > 0"

Ivs
Profile Joined January 2008
Australia139 Posts
September 11 2010 02:43 GMT
#37
On September 11 2010 11:36 mieda wrote:
Show nested quote +

I did impose gcd(d,k) = 1, read the whole thing =P. You are right about the negative part though, and yup it is easily fixed.


I read the whole thing. Only the $k > 0$ is meant to be new. You should read my last sentencen as "gcd(d,k) = 1" *and also* "k > 0"


Oh right, fair enough (=.
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