• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:23
CEST 20:23
KST 03:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5TL.net Map Contest #21 - Finalists4Team TLMC #5: Vote to Decide Ladder Maps!0[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Mile High15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up2PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition245.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)108$2,500 WardiTV TL Map Contest Tournament 152Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada11
StarCraft 2
General
WoL: how does "advanced construction" work? 5.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version) Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition ZvT - Army Composition - Slow Lings + Fast Banes
Tourneys
$2,500 WardiTV TL Map Contest Tournament 15 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Tenacious Turtle Tussle Stellar Fest Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More Mutation # 491 Night Drive
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site Question regarding recent ASL Bisu vs Larva game BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro8 Day 4 [ASL20] Ro8 Day 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Proposed Glossary of Strategic Uncertainty Current Meta TvZ Theorycraft - Improving on State of the Art 9 hatch vs 10 hatch vs 12 hatch
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts The Automated Ban List BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final
Blogs
[AI] From Comfort Women to …
Peanutsc
Mental Health In Esports: Wo…
TrAiDoS
Try to reverse getting fired …
Garnet
[ASL20] Players bad at pi…
pullarius1
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1598 users

#5 Wherein We Discuss the Nature of Shit on a Wall

Blogs > Thereisnosaurus
Post a Reply
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
September 05 2010 07:29 GMT
#1
[image loading]
This week Make a Game of That dons a beret, practices its sneer and infiltrates the highbrow world of art theory, only to flip it the bird and dance naked upon the altar of games design while eating symbolic hamburgers.

When studying aesthetics, it’s important that one understands the history of the aesthetic movements. I’ve always found people get scared when you throw around words like postmodernism and auteurial intent, with good reason. There are a lot of pretentious types who like to make these concepts sound more fearsome than they actually are. I’m sure some will take me to task for doing this, but over time as part of my thoughts as a designer, I’ve been forced to construct a simple and more usable model of this history which requires neither beret nor latte to grasp. If you are a trained art historian, tissues have been provided in the atrium in case of ocular bleeding. Please don’t weep blood on the other readers.

Now, the western movements in aesthetics are broad ideas that took the public and artistic imagination of the time. For much of history, we were in what you might term the ‘naive’ era. We made music and stories and art without really thinking about what we were doing. during the middle ages and peaking in the renaissance, however, people began to write treatise and study the act of making their artwork, studying the effects it had and trying to improve it through this understanding. Really, people had been doing this for millenia, but this was the first time it was a noticeable movement across literature, music and visual art. We began to codify the ‘rules’ of artwork, and from this arose the great classical masters of music and painting, exemplified by the likes of Bach, Da Vinci and Michelangelo. This is what I call the ‘classical’ movement- classical music, classical art and classical storytelling- at this time, the grand narrative was still more or less the same as the greek myth, the archetypal story that Joseph Cambell later examined in ‘The Hero with a Thousand Faces’, the book that inspired George Lucas to begin his Star Wars series.

[image loading]
Star Wars was very carefully and deliberately written to a script that had been common to almost all myths across cultures for thousands of years, the growth of the hero from ignorance to wisdom, the defeat of evil and the cycle of power. When people call it epic, it actually deserves the title...


Then, once these rules were established, people began to question them. I would say it began with Beethoven, just because I find his progression exemplary of this trend. Beethoven is often stated as the first of the romantic musicians, a movement that produced works like O Fortuna, Carmen, In The Hall of the Mountain King, The Planets and many others. Romantic music was typified by a questioning and rejection of the strict rules of classical music, and by the author’s intent to portray not just a complex sound, but a story. Note that all the above works are titled with something evocative, instead of ‘symphony 5 in B#’or similar. visual artists soon followed, and the impressionists, expressionists and cubists began to gain public acclaim, again, rejecting the meticulous style of the old masters for wilder, less collected work. Literature also changed- perhaps the most- becoming literature as we know it today, varying from the myth-telling of old into the modern novel, period piece, mystery and political drama.

As time wore on, works began to not just play with the boundaries but deliberately and openly flout them, beginning what we call the modernist movement. Books like Ulysses, music like the 20 minutes of silence and artwork like that of Mondrian. The sort of stuff we love to hate. The hardcore modernists aimed to show us that there are in fact no rules, as the classical had spent hundreds of years trying to codify. All there is is what the author produces and, in a disconnected way, what the viewer or listener takes away. For those educated in the classical movements, modernism was shocking, exciting, almost indecent. For us today, it is generally just annoying.

[image loading]
I recommend this for anyone struggling with the stuff. Cheap, effective and probably only moderately toxic.

But the modernist movement began to peter out as the modernists just started to do wierd stuff. You can only crap on a wall and frame it so many times before the public starts looking at you funny and the critics reach for their pince-nez. When the artistic community calmed down a bit, they began to re-acknowledge the power of the classical rules. That certain types of story, sight or sound could spellbind you, send you into a rage or make you dissolve into tears. You just had to do it just right. We realised that this was powerful and, as all powerful things are, dangerous. So began the postmodernist movement.

Postmodernism, for all the la-de-da that surrounds it can be summed up very simply: A work with postmodern elements draws attention to the classical rules it uses. Breaking the fourth wall, anachronism, parody and pastiche are all heavily post-modern concepts. By doing this, the postmodernist attempts to show you how the magic is performed, so you won’t be fooled again. The great postmodernists can not only do this, but actually hit you with all the power of a classical work even though they’re telling you time and again how they’re making it happen. These days you’re hard pressed to find work without a bit of postmodern flavour, so powerful the movement has been. It lies in in almost all the great modern works- the simpsons, scrubs, Discworld and the Hitchhiker’s guide and many pieces of referrential, surreal and tongue-in cheek artwork

[image loading]
This is perhaps the most emblematic work of the spirit of postmodernism. The text reads ‘this is not a pipe’, drawing attention to the idea that a representation is not the thing in and of itself.

And so we arrive, somewhat more confused than we set out, to the present day. The great aesthetic movements are still with us- most attempts at art are still mostly of the naive kind, based simply on what feels good at the time. those who put a bit more time and effort in graduate to the classicist school more often than not, and still the majority of art is primarily influenced by this school- producing more work within the great rules of powerful art. The modernists have found a role within the system of the world. Each time they break the established rules, the classicists will swarm into the breach and measure, analyse and compile the discovery into the great tomes of learning that form the cultural history of the west, turning newly turned earth into another garden plot. The Postmodernists study and critique the classicist works, or simply seek to ensure that as many as possible understand the rules of art in such a way that they can appreciate them without being controlled. Our progress through aesthetics and art can thus be summed up with a simple flow chart:

do>understand>question> expand> control

This summary came from a tutorial I worked through with a friend I am tutoring in games design. What, I hear you say, does this have to do with games design? We don’t need this artsy fartsy stuff to pwn noobs and top the scoreboards. Yet games, particularly video games, have been as powerfully influenced by the aesthetic movements as any other creative pursuit. I challenged my friend to identify some designers and studios who identified strongly with one of the movements.

We looked at Valve and Irrational as examples of very classicist studios (though TF2 was agreed to be a rather postmodern dabble). Powerful use of aesthetics to tell equally enthralling stories, games with stories that are so real they’re not games any more.

Will Wright and Tale of Tales came up as examples of modernist influenced work in games design- pushing the boundaries of what videogames are, often with remarkable success

And, of course, who but Blizzard could fill our postmodern slot. You might initially twinge a bit at this. What, you say, but Blizzard make enthralling games! I totally get into the story! I totally get into the game!

Of course, and if you read Pratchett or watch the Simpsons, you’ll know the same feeling- being utterly engrossed in a work of art while never forgetting that it’s just that. Look back through Blizzard games, how often do they remind you you’re playing a game? through jokes and humor mostly, but even aesthetics themselves, from the exaggeratedly referential style of WoW to the just a bit too larger than life personalities of Starcraft 2, Blizzard has more often than not been about hitting you in the face with the fact that you’re playing a game, that this is not real. And, like all good postmodern art, their story suffers very little from it.


if you can deal with the obnoxious british voice, this is perhaps the most... colourful... example of what I’m talking about. Who else but Blizzard.

Till next time

Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
September 05 2010 07:40 GMT
#2
This horse is made of stars

oh god rofl
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
September 05 2010 07:50 GMT
#3
I hope you got the reference, yeah, there's a reference. IN EVERY FREAKING LINE.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
September 06 2010 04:40 GMT
#4
I'm wondering if I'm trying to be a bit too educative. I'm trying to keep this stuff light and amusing, but it has to be wordy to get the whole thing out so you can wrap your head around it.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
YoureFired
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States822 Posts
September 06 2010 04:59 GMT
#5
I lost interest after the Pipe picture. I think you went a bit too long explaining the philosophy behind it. I don't think this is a problem if you don't mind having a reverse pyramid article scheme.
ted cruz is the zodiac killer
Trap
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States395 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-09-06 05:06:45
September 06 2010 05:04 GMT
#6
On September 05 2010 16:29 Thereisnosaurus wrote:
Now, the western movements in aesthetics are broad ideas that took the public and artistic imagination of the time. For much of history, we were in what you might term the ‘naive’ era. We made music and stories and art without really thinking about what we were doing. during the middle ages and peaking in the renaissance, however, people began to write treatise and study the act of making their artwork, studying the effects it had and trying to improve it through this understanding. Really, people had been doing this for millenia, but this was the first time it was a noticeable movement across literature, music and visual art. We began to codify the ‘rules’ of artwork, and from this arose the great classical masters of music and painting, exemplified by the likes of Bach, Da Vinci and Michelangelo. This is what I call the ‘classical’ movement- classical music, classical art and classical storytelling- at this time, the grand narrative was still more or less the same as the greek myth, the archetypal story that Joseph Cambell later examined in ‘The Hero with a Thousand Faces’, the book that inspired George Lucas to begin his Star Wars series.


The "naive era" is a terrible term. Before the 1500s, people weren't "really thinking about what they were doing?" That statement shows your complete ignorance of some of the greatest and most fundamental works of Western civilization. Have you ever read any Greek literature or philosophy? The Roman tradition that built off of that? The numerous religious treatises and assembly of ta biblia that came out of late antiquity? You're talking out of your ass here.

The thing that Blizzard is hitting your face with isn't postmodernism, trying to break the audience barrier. It's them selling to their 14 year old demographic.
coffeetoss | "Team Liquid Fantasy Proleague: Tales of Miserable Failure and Deep Regret" -Kanil
Thereisnosaurus
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Australia1822 Posts
September 06 2010 06:16 GMT
#7
Have you ever read any Greek literature or philosophy? The Roman tradition that built off of that? The numerous religious treatises and assembly of ta biblia that came out of late antiquity?

First yes, second yes, third some of (assuming we're talking christian stuff here). I've always been interested in greek myth and roman storytelling as a matter of fact. I did say that the emphasis was on 'movements' across all the various artistic traditions. The romans and greeks both had formal, deliberated musical traditions, not so much in literature and visual arts. I'm not saying their works were bad, just that it was not part of their artistic culture that a student first learned the rules of how to make art before becoming an artist (other than the actual technical ability to paint or sculpt etc)

Even there, they thought, but it was not a large, recognized social movement, which is what this was all about. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough ^^

The thing that Blizzard is hitting your face with isn't postmodernism, trying to break the audience barrier. It's them selling to their 14 year old demographic.


Now you're talking out of your ass. Very few, if any, creative people and designers add such things to their works with the express intent of selling them. They do it because they think it's good, and hope people agree with them. Sure, publishers might push things one way or another, sure people might stray away from doing something because it would not sell well, but once a topic is chosen, it becomes an effort of making the product the best it can be, not the best selling it can be. You can't get creative people to work under that chapeau, studios that have tried have failed spectacularly. And blizzard is definitely not the place for designers of that sort.
Poisonous Sheep counter Hydras
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 37m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 694
ProTech76
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 32581
Shuttle 5241
Bisu 4317
Larva 1233
Soma 1065
hero 746
Soulkey 692
Light 674
Snow 463
Mini 299
[ Show more ]
Rush 207
Dewaltoss 136
sorry 104
Backho 55
scan(afreeca) 18
Terrorterran 5
Dota 2
Gorgc9030
Dendi1318
PGG 161
capcasts32
Counter-Strike
fl0m3032
olofmeister2222
pashabiceps530
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu265
Other Games
FrodaN2334
Grubby919
Beastyqt669
crisheroes395
B2W.Neo226
C9.Mang0131
ToD102
Livibee61
QueenE58
Trikslyr56
UpATreeSC49
Mew2King45
JuggernautJason8
MindelVK4
Codebar2
Organizations
StarCraft 2
angryscii 21
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 4
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 27
• Michael_bg 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3420
League of Legends
• Nemesis4735
• Jankos1712
• TFBlade759
Other Games
• imaqtpie721
• Shiphtur308
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
5h 37m
Map Test Tournament
16h 37m
OSC
21h 37m
MaNa vs Harstem
ByuN vs TBD
HiGhDrA vs NightPhoenix
Iba vs Ziomek
TriGGeR vs MindelVK
Lemon vs TBD
YoungYakov vs PAPI
ArT vs sebesdes
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
1d 4h
The PondCast
1d 15h
Map Test Tournament
1d 16h
OSC
1d 21h
Map Test Tournament
2 days
OSC
2 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Map Test Tournament
3 days
OSC
3 days
[BSL 2025] Weekly
3 days
Safe House 2
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Map Test Tournament
4 days
OSC
4 days
IPSL
5 days
dxtr13 vs Napoleon
Doodle vs OldBoy
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 20 Team Wars
Maestros of the Game
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
Acropolis #4 - TS2
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
WardiTV TLMC #15
EC S1
ESL Pro League S22
Frag Blocktober 2025
Urban Riga Open #1
FERJEE Rush 2025
Birch Cup 2025
DraculaN #2
LanDaLan #3
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.