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With the conclusion of the Hana Daetoo MSL, Jaedong has now been in a finals 7 out of the last 8 seasons.
Fall 07: 3-1  Stork
Winter 08: 3-1 Kal
Summer 08: 0-3  fOrGG
Fall 08: Protoss season, no finals.
Winter 09: 3-2 fantasy
Summer 09: 3-0  Yarnc
Fall 09: 3-1 Flash
Spring 10: 0-3 Flash
The only player with a similar streak is Nada, who made it to finals 6 times in 8 seasons, but made dual finals twice for a total of 8 finals in 8 seasons.
Boxer and Savior made it to five straight finals, iloveoov to four, and Bisu to three.
Flash's two straight finals, even though they were both dual finals, are nothing compared to this. Don't call him bonjwa, yet.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
jalstar is a pretty cool person.
Good for you for showing that dominance doesn't have to be too, too compact.
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On June 01 2010 03:42 jalstar wrote:
Flash's two straight finals, even though they were both dual finals, are nothing compared to this. Don't call him bonjwa, yet.
Yes, because in order to be called bonjwa, Flash must match all the individual accomplishments of past bonjwas.
He must make at least 10 finals (Nada)
He must obtain both the Golden Mouse (various) and Golden Badge (various)
He must win every final he appears in (iloveoov)
He must reach 80% lifetime win rate in ZvZ (Jaedong)
etc
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Flash is a Bonjwa. If you dont think he is the favorite in every single game, and if you don't think he is superior to every single player you are blind. I hate Flash and I'm a Jaedong Fanboy, but the kid is pretty much invincible, and all his mus are simply godlike, it takes the game of your life to take down Flash.
Jaedong will become the GOAT anyways, so I don't mind that much ^__^.
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I can't remember who said it recently but I agree with the person, it was something along the lines of that to be bonjwa is more of a psychological thing rather than pure, raw accomplishments or statistics. JD and Flash are still "doubted" far more than the other dominant players of their times and really just don't have the same aura to them.
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On June 01 2010 03:42 jalstar wrote:With the conclusion of the Hana Daetoo MSL, Jaedong has now been in a finals 7 out of the last 8 seasons. Fall 07: 3-1 StorkWinter 08: 3-1 KalSummer 08: 0-3 fOrGGFall 08: Protoss season, no finals. Winter 09: 3-2 fantasySummer 09: 3-0 YarncFall 09: 3-1 FlashSpring 10: 0-3 FlashThe only player with a similar streak is Nada, who made it to finals 6 times in 8 seasons, but made dual finals twice for a total of 8 finals in 8 seasons. Boxer and Savior made it to five straight finals, iloveoov to four, and Bisu to three. Flash's two straight finals, even though they were both dual finals, are nothing compared to this. Don't call him bonjwa, yet.
And none of these guys made 4 finals in 2 seasons with ~85% winrate in PL so none of them are bonjwa either =p
seriously -.-
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On June 01 2010 03:43 flamewheel wrote:jalstar is a pretty cool person. Good for you for showing that dominance doesn't have to be too, too compact.
How are you always first? Whats your secret?
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On June 01 2010 03:58 Puosu wrote:
I can't remember who said it recently but I agree with the person, it was something along the lines of that to be bonjwa is more of a psychological thing rather than pure, raw accomplishments or statistics. JD and Flash are still "doubted" far more than the other dominant players of their times and really just don't have the same aura to them.
I guarantee that if you look at the liquidbet statistics for matches like savior vs midas, or savior vs iris they will be _alot_ more even than flash vs mvp, or flash vs pure.
(And the matches also turned out alot more even)
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On June 01 2010 03:58 Puosu wrote:
I can't remember who said it recently but I agree with the person, it was something along the lines of that to be bonjwa is more of a psychological thing rather than pure, raw accomplishments or statistics. JD and Flash are still "doubted" far more than the other dominant players of their times and really just don't have the same aura to them.
I agree. As much as I fancy Flash, I don't consider him bonwja, not yet at least.
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On June 01 2010 04:02 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 03:58 Puosu wrote:
I can't remember who said it recently but I agree with the person, it was something along the lines of that to be bonjwa is more of a psychological thing rather than pure, raw accomplishments or statistics. JD and Flash are still "doubted" far more than the other dominant players of their times and really just don't have the same aura to them. I guarantee that if you look at the liquidbet statistics for matches like savior vs midas, or savior vs iris they will be _alot_ more even than flash vs mvp, or flash vs pure. (And the matches also turned out alot more even)
You're comparing Midas and Iris to MVP and Pure?
The fuck?
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"Flash is not a bonjwa" police has arrived
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I think if Flash wins the next OSL/MSL then people won't get all anghtsy about calling him Bonjwa. He IS the best Starcraft player out there right now.
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On June 01 2010 04:03 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 04:02 KlaCkoN wrote:On June 01 2010 03:58 Puosu wrote:
I can't remember who said it recently but I agree with the person, it was something along the lines of that to be bonjwa is more of a psychological thing rather than pure, raw accomplishments or statistics. JD and Flash are still "doubted" far more than the other dominant players of their times and really just don't have the same aura to them. I guarantee that if you look at the liquidbet statistics for matches like savior vs midas, or savior vs iris they will be _alot_ more even than flash vs mvp, or flash vs pure. (And the matches also turned out alot more even) You're comparing Midas and Iris to MVP and Pure? The fuck?
They were flash's and saviors quarter and semi final opponents respectivly so yeah I am.
You can argue that their name value is less and I would agree, that's not really got anything to do with it though, what matters is dominance over the current competition.
(And the competetion nowadays is obviously alot harder today anyways, with the skill level ever rising and all)
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United States33651 Posts
Jaedong is pretty good, I was hoping he'd get his 6th major title to tie nada before the gom-blizz murder BW
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I would be so happy if this word wouldn't exist. Even if I don't give a fuck how you wanna call the best player over whatever period for whatever reason, sadly you cannot read TL without having to read about this nonsense all the time.
I think they are both pretty good, lol.
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I think whatever level is higher than bonjwa that's flash.
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On May 31 2010 04:56 jalstar wrote:
If Flash wins another title this year I will call him bonjwa.
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Flash has been the clear #1 on the scene since October (8 months) and has during that time broken a ton of records and done several unprecedented things (consecutive dual finals, Kepsa point record, multiple ELO records, reaching 70+% in all MU's, 3-0'ing JD in a final etc etc). I really don't care if you label him bonjwa or not, the dominance Flash is showing warrants a new title IMO. If he can get just a couple of more Starleague titles he'll definitely go down in history as the best player of all time (well, he pretty much is the best player already, but he still isn't the greatest or most accomplished).
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Imagine Flash and Forgg in KT house, celebrating their 3-0 msl finals victory over JD
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I would rank Jaedong higher then some of the bonjwas if I where to make a "Greatest players of all time"-list but still in my eyes he has never been one.
In a way his high consistency over these ~2.5 years is more impressive then having been this totally unstoppable force for about a year or so.
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Flash has the most dominant win rate out of all players, thus making him statistically the best SC player out there. Psychologically, he is not a bonjwa yet, but he and Jaedong really deserve to be on the list for being the best players to have ever played Starcraft.
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It's always funny to see randoms on the internet think they have a say in the matter. Yeah you go tell 'em bro, those commentators in south korea are clueless and idiots to call Flash above Bonjwa, I mean, what do they know? It's not like they've been in the pro scene since it started.
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if i remember correctly forgg wasnt on KT but on OZ when he 3-0d jaedong
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I've always said that if we were to call flash a bonjwa now then we would have to call JD a bonjwa for totally dominating january-august 09, which was even harder then because of the GOM league (again a reason why many believed flash struggled back then was because he was too spread out among the 4 leagues just like JD was).
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Flash is Yoda and Jaedong is Obi Wan.
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Fucking Jesus Christ.
I don't like to swear seemingly randomly, but really, fuck, stop it with the flash bonjwa discussion.
Sure he is the favorite to win at the moment, but so was stork, bisu, and a host of other progamers at their prime. During iloveoov's 20 something to 1 TvZ streak, I'd be willing to bet a good amount of my life on his games. Can I say the same for Flash? Certainly not.
Flash is the favorite to win against ANY player, surely, but he does not have the same aura of dominance that the other bonjwas had.
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On June 01 2010 07:39 SoManyDeadLings wrote:
Fucking Jesus Christ.
I don't like to swear seemingly randomly, but really, fuck, stop it with the flash bonjwa discussion.
Sure he is the favorite to win at the moment, but so was stork, bisu, and a host of other progamers at their prime. During iloveoov's 20 something to 1 TvZ streak, I'd be willing to bet a good amount of my life on his games. Can I say the same for Flash? Certainly not.
Flash is the favorite to win against ANY player, surely, but he does not have the same aura of dominance that the other bonjwas had.
No.
You are so unbelievably hypocritical I want you to die.
"STOP WITH THIS DISCUSSION...BUT WHILE YOU ARE DISCUSSING IT, HERE'S MY PERSONAL OPINION."
Just no.
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Flash is obviously the #1 programmer in the world atm. However, he is not a bonjwa. He doesn't need to match the accomplishments of past bonjwas. He just needs a general consensus of the community he is dominant. As long as there are die hard Jaedong fans (hi) disputing Flash's dominance, Flash can't be seen as a bonjwa. I.E. No one disputed past bonjwa's dominance or their label as bonjwa. It is clear you are number one in the world right now Flash, but no bonjwa for you, sowwy
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I can't believe this is still happening. You guys need to realize bonjwa is dead. It's 2010. Flash is neo-bonjwa. Eat it.
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On June 01 2010 08:08 TheMute wrote:
Flash is obviously the #1 programmer in the world atm. However, he is not a bonjwa. He doesn't need to match the accomplishments of past bonjwas. He just needs a general consensus of the community he is dominant. As long as there are die hard Jaedong fans (hi) disputing Flash's dominance, Flash can't be seen as a bonjwa. I.E. No one disputed past bonjwa's dominance or their label as bonjwa. It is clear you are number one in the world right now Flash, but no bonjwa for you, sowwy
Your post is also ridiculous.
You and everyone else says Flash is #1. You say it repeatedly in THIS post for F's sake... and you are not the only one....
You then say "He just needs a general consensus of the community he is dominant."
WELL GUESS WHAT HE HAS IT LOL
I mean seriously... you begin with the statement "Flash is obviously the #1 programmer in the world atm."
edit: just noticed your classic typo... programmer haha xD
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United States17042 Posts
well he was as dominant as the other bonjwas before he started his fall to effort. It's not about the statistics, but he was destoying people earlier this year. He hit timings that no one thought was there, and he's been demonstrating consistent play. Sure, it's not as dominant as nada was when he was playing for Pantech-ex, but you can see the same quality and persistence that nada had in flash.
read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=24190
or watch the game that they're talking about:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/2093_GoRush_vs_NaDa/vod
and then watch flash do something similar in many of his TvZ's this season, most notably:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/41763_Action_vs_Flash/vod
Flash was evoking the same feeling of dominance over me earlier this year, as was jaedong when he looked invincible. The maps and metagame changes mean that there is probably not going to be a continued period of dominance like there was during savior, Nada's, or Oov's reign, but there is still that feeling that no matter what the maps are, flash will continue to be "the exception" to map and matchup trends.
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Jaedong bonjwa! 
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EPT
