• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:28
CEST 16:28
KST 23:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL21Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30[ASL19] Ro4 Recap : The Peak15
Community News
Weekly Cups (May 19-25): Hindsight is 20/20?0DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack8[BSL20] RO20 Group Stage2EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1)17Weekly Cups (May 12-18): Clem sweeps WardiTV May3
StarCraft 2
General
The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN Can anyone explain to me why u cant veto a matchup Karma, Domino Effect, and how it relates to SC2.
Tourneys
DreamHack Dallas 2025 Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO12 - Group B EWC 2025 Regional Qualifiers (May 28-June 1) [GSL 2025] Code S:Season 2 - RO12 - Group A
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void Mutation # 472 Dead Heat
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Battle.net is not working Practice Partners (Official)
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] RO20 Group D - Sunday 20:00 CET [BSL20] RO20 Group B - Saturday 20:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Monster Hunter Wilds Beyond All Reason Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Plays: Diplomacy TL Mafia: Generative Agents Showdown Survivor II: The Amazon
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine All you football fans (soccer)! European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL.net Ten Commandments
Blogs
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Yes Sir! How Commanding Impr…
TrAiDoS
Poker
Nebuchad
Info SLEgma_12
SLEgma_12
SECOND COMMING
XenOsky
WombaT’s Old BW Terran Theme …
WombaT
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 14731 users

TSL staff, your decision is a hastily done mistake

Blogs > beetlelisk
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 22:15:47
February 10 2010 20:21 GMT
#1
edit
I understand very well reasons why this had to be done but


Since it was my translation that caused this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=111991
On February 10 2010 14:59 TL.net Bot wrote:
[image loading]


<font size=3>Tarson Penalized For Leaking Results</font>

It has come to our attention that Tarson spoiled the results of his Ro16 match with Nony by posting on a Polish forum. These posts happened immediately after his match with Nony and several hours before the TSL Ro16 Broadcast that showed his games.

Tarson's Posts
(Translation from Polish included):
+ Show Spoiler [Show Posts] +
[image loading]

"I advise you to not watch my games."

[image loading]

"I'm just saying do not watch those fucking games, fucked up... [more expletives, grief, regret] ... fucking starcraft. I can't believe myself what has happened"

[image loading]

"Where did I write result ? I'm saying to not watch [those] games, that's all lol ;]"

We understand the frustration and anger that comes with losing, especially in the way that Tarson lost. However, it does not excuse a player's actions. Here, the results were leaked in a Polish forum accessible by many people. While Tarson initially argued that he did not technically reveal results, what he said essentially gives away the final result of the series and encourages people not to watch. Later, Tarson admitted what he posted was incorrect, and issued an apology to us:

Show nested quote +
Tarson wrote:
As you probably know I kinda revealed my results vs Nony on a Polish forum. I was very frustrated after my loss but I shouldn't have said that. I want to apologize everyone for my behavior.


Normally, we would simply punish the player by taking away his prize money. However, this is the first incident we've had, and taking into consideration Tarson's apology, we feel that a 50% prize reduction ($125 penalty) is more appropriate. The penalized money will be donated to a charity to be determined later. This action is not about the actual monetary amount, but more about sending a message that leaking results is a serious offense. Temporary anger or frustration after a loss does not mean a player escapes responsibility for his own choices and actions.

For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers. Spoiling results to anyone is one of the most damaging things a player can do to our broadcast. It greatly harms the TSL and our ability to secure sponsorship for future tournaments. Players were informed prior to the TSL that any spoilers would result in possible forfeiture of their prize money.

It is unfortunate that we were forced to do this. Aside from this one incident, Tarson was an exemplary player and dealt with us very professionally. However, we will not hesitate to punish future leaks with a full revocation of prize money. Hopefully, now that this incident is resolved, we will not have to do this in the future.

--TSL Staff


The way you handled this makes me think you at least have not consulted my translation with any other person with enough knowledge of Polish and English.

I strongly believe that anyone who has shown support of your decision, like for example iNc

On February 10 2010 18:09 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
YES

Bout friggin time someone started punishing for these kind of things.

"Too harsh" bullshit. This is a HUGE tourney and Tarson KNEW he wasn't supposed to do that but he let his emotions get the best of him. I'm tired of the general scbw community wanting a slap on the wrist for these kind of things.. bring the fucking hammer.

GW tl

would not know about what Tarson wrote on netwars.pl if there would be no thread about punishing Tarson.

Whatever result are, TSL games are not meant to be read about. They are meant to be watched!
Moreover I posted this after 2 games have already been played - punishing Tarson would make sense if results were leaked (long before) any games were casted.
In these circumstances it can not be understood as as leaking results but only as Tarson's resentment of the way he performed in his match as a whole.




If you believe that this translation damages your broadcast then THE VERY FIRST THING YOU SHOULD DO is to contact with me about it and/or ban me as a person responsible for bringing this to you.

Punishing Tarson wasn't my motive behind this!
This decision doesn't need to be magnified by lowering Tarson's prize.
Please revert this as he is not losing any money in this way; if you will not I will send him exact amount of money he may lose by your decision.




edit:
On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:

A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.

I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.

If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught.

I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way?

**
wwww
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
February 10 2010 20:22 GMT
#2
Thats noble of you, but if you hadn't translated it, someone else would have. I don't think it can really be argued that this is your fault at all.
White-Ra fighting!
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
February 10 2010 20:24 GMT
#3
Why would they ban you?

OP makes no sense
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
February 10 2010 20:25 GMT
#4
He shouldn't have said anything to anyone. It has nothing to do with the translations. Word of mouth is very powerful.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
February 10 2010 20:29 GMT
#5
In this event players agree ahead of time that they will keep their mouth shut until after the match.... he didn't... he revealed some pretty key information there. He doesn't have to say "I lost" to spoil it. It's possible he wouldn't have been 'caught' if not for your translation but that's irrelevant to whether or not the TSL should penalize him and his prize. If I were in your position I wouldn't send him the 125 dollars since I am not the one who violated the rules of the TSL... just possibly did something unethical.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
maareek
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2042 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 20:31:16
February 10 2010 20:30 GMT
#6
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

Still, based on that time stamp I can't see how Tarson didn't post this before the games were over, which still constitutes a breach of (verbal, I guess) contract.
FrozenArbiter: Obless PvT master
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
February 10 2010 20:30 GMT
#7
I don't think anyone would make screenshots or even just copy paste and translate this.
wwww
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
February 10 2010 20:31 GMT
#8
On February 11 2010 05:30 maareek wrote:
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

OP should correct me if I'm wrong... but the Tarson posts were well before the broadcast.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
February 10 2010 20:31 GMT
#9
I am 100% certain this would not happen if 3rd game of that set would look any different than it did
wwww
maareek
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2042 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 20:33:37
February 10 2010 20:32 GMT
#10
1-31-10 16:38 (I'm assuming CET) would be right around the start of broadcast, I think. Again, not defending Tarson here, just trying to make the OP a little clearer (at least what I got from it).

Edit at below: it's a preemptive strike at the principal of the thing. No leaking means no leaking. Anywhere.
FrozenArbiter: Obless PvT master
ZeroCartin
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Costa Rica2390 Posts
February 10 2010 20:32 GMT
#11
For me 125 bucks for this is just too much, specially in aforum thats not that big and mainly didnt influence most of the people watching the TSL -_-
"My sister is on vacation in Costa Rica right now. I hope she stays a while because she's a miserable cunt." -pubbanana
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 20:35:09
February 10 2010 20:33 GMT
#12
On February 11 2010 05:31 micronesia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2010 05:30 maareek wrote:
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

OP should correct me if I'm wrong... but the Tarson posts were well before the broadcast.

Did he post this on TL? No he didn't, taking all circumstances into consideration there is no need to split his prize.

The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results!
wwww
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24637 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 20:37:26
February 10 2010 20:34 GMT
#13
On February 11 2010 05:31 beetlelisk wrote:
I am 100% certain this would not happen if 3rd game of that set would look any different than it did

Irrelevant since he agreed not to do this beforehand. The conditions by which he was caught doesn't really matter since no rules/laws prevent the TSL staff from acting on the info they were provided with for punishing him. Perhaps the TSL should either make their investigation more thorough or explain what else they did besides use your translation though.

On February 11 2010 05:32 ZeroCartin wrote:
For me 125 bucks for this is just too much, specially in aforum thats not that big and mainly didnt influence most of the people watching the TSL -_-

He agreed beforehand not to do this. His prize is void. They are giving him half anyway. It's pretty generous and demonstrates that the TSL staff DOES in fact care.

On February 11 2010 05:33 beetlelisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2010 05:31 micronesia wrote:
On February 11 2010 05:30 maareek wrote:
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

OP should correct me if I'm wrong... but the Tarson posts were well before the broadcast.

Did he post this on TL? No he didn't, taking all circumstances into consideration there is no need to split his prize.

The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results!

The fact that he didn't post this on TL is irrelevant. As I said before he also doesn't need to say "I lost" to point out that he probably lost. He needs to keep quiet until the broadcast like everyone else or he runs the risk of exactly what happened. He got caught disseminating the information. Don't give incontrol a hard time as if he doesn't know this topic very well... he had to keep the WCG Ultimate Gamer info quiet for a while with a MUCH greater penalty at stake than this.

Edit: you are not being reasonable so I won't discuss this with you anymore. I'm sorry you feel responsible but you shouldn't and he's gonna get half his prize so this isn't horrible.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
February 10 2010 20:36 GMT
#14
I don't see anything wrong in showing that TSL cares. I am against making this so harsh.

I repeat:
The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results
wwww
maareek
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
United States2042 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-10 20:40:03
February 10 2010 20:38 GMT
#15
On February 11 2010 05:33 beetlelisk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2010 05:31 micronesia wrote:
On February 11 2010 05:30 maareek wrote:
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

OP should correct me if I'm wrong... but the Tarson posts were well before the broadcast.

Did he post this on TL? No he didn't, taking all circumstances into consideration there is no need to split his prize.

The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results!


Would he have said "I played terrible, don't bother watching" if he beat Nony? Or even had a decent series? Those comments make it blatantly obvious who won, which is just the same as saying he lost. Just like "omg, the games are freaking awesome everybody check 'em out holy shit it was amazing" would be borderline spoiling it the other way (though it'd get him huge props if he lsot and did that, he might get in trouble if he did it and won. It sounds like Tarson has already admitted the mistake and gotten over it, so it would probably be best if you let it go, as well. It's a sad situation, but the TSL admins are being lenient here, not harsh.
FrozenArbiter: Obless PvT master
LordWeird
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3411 Posts
February 10 2010 20:40 GMT
#16
On February 11 2010 05:36 beetlelisk wrote:
I don't see anything wrong in showing that TSL cares. I am against making this so harsh.

I repeat:
The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results


Ok, so if I were to post after a big tournament series "Fuck this, fuck starcraft, i can't believe this... i did so poorly"

You wouldn't think I lost?

Wtf don't dance around technicalities, that's stupid.
Chains none
MooCow
Profile Joined September 2008
1434 Posts
February 10 2010 20:41 GMT
#17
On February 11 2010 05:36 beetlelisk wrote:
I don't see anything wrong in showing that TSL cares. I am against making this so harsh.

I repeat:
The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results

He didn't leak the information but the comments he made on his performance would make it pretty obvious what the results were to anyone.
Making history not reliving it.
beetlelisk
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Poland2276 Posts
February 10 2010 20:43 GMT
#18
On February 11 2010 05:38 maareek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2010 05:33 beetlelisk wrote:
On February 11 2010 05:31 micronesia wrote:
On February 11 2010 05:30 maareek wrote:
Based on what he's saying and the time stamp of those posts, what I'm assuming the OP is saying is that Tarson posted this while the matches were being casted. It would take a little more comparing to see just where the timing was, but I think that's what the OP is trying to get across here.

OP should correct me if I'm wrong... but the Tarson posts were well before the broadcast.

Did he post this on TL? No he didn't, taking all circumstances into consideration there is no need to split his prize.

The thing is there was no leak at all, he commentated his performance not results!


Would he have said "I played terrible, don't bother watching" if he beat Nony? Or even had a decent series? Those comments make it blatantly obvious who won, which is just the same as saying he lost. Just like "omg, the games are freaking awesome everybody check 'em out holy shit it was amazing" would be borderline spoiling it the other way (though it'd get him huge props if he lsot and did that, he might get in trouble if he did it and won. It sounds like Tarson has already admitted the mistake and gotten over it, so it would probably be best if you let it go, as well. It's a sad situation, but the TSL admins are being lenient here, not harsh.

You can say this after you have seen all games. There is a huge prize pool and reputation (mostly in Polish BW scene) involved in this, assuming he spoiled the results isn't fully justified.
wwww
Tossim111
Profile Joined October 2009
United States246 Posts
February 10 2010 20:45 GMT
#19
decision seems to be very uptight. not as bad as having the policy to disqualify ppl for saying ppp, but its just very uptight. maybe u should do something else, rather than cut half of the prize money that he worked for days to get... and managed to fuk it up by just a single post..
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
February 10 2010 20:45 GMT
#20
Hrmm gotta keep serious face to acquire future sponsors so tl staff took excellent decision imo. I'm pretty sure all of us can relate to Tarson and the staff
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Road to EWC
10:00
Asia Closed Qualifiers
RotterdaM1261
CranKy Ducklings169
3DClanTV 76
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1261
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 33888
Calm 4737
Rain 3483
Mini 1260
EffOrt 924
Stork 427
Snow 221
Rush 159
ZerO 108
Killer 102
[ Show more ]
Mind 101
Sharp 72
sSak 56
Barracks 51
Movie 40
ToSsGirL 34
Shinee 29
Aegong 27
GoRush 25
ajuk12(nOOB) 23
IntoTheRainbow 15
Noble 12
Shine 9
Terrorterran 9
Dota 2
Gorgc6412
Dendi2595
qojqva2432
XcaliburYe306
Fuzer 190
BabyKnight42
Counter-Strike
Foxcn188
edward63
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor170
Other Games
singsing1873
B2W.Neo1013
hiko668
DeMusliM523
Mlord372
crisheroes344
Happy247
Hui .194
ArmadaUGS170
Mew2King110
XaKoH 104
QueenE45
ZerO(Twitch)14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• FirePhoenix0
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3842
• WagamamaTV561
League of Legends
• Jankos1262
Upcoming Events
Road to EWC
7h 32m
Road to EWC
18h 32m
Road to EWC
1d 1h
BSL Season 20
1d 3h
Sziky vs Razz
Sziky vs StRyKeR
Sziky vs DragOn
Sziky vs Tech
Razz vs StRyKeR
Razz vs DragOn
Razz vs Tech
DragOn vs Tech
Online Event
1d 13h
Clem vs ShoWTimE
herO vs MaxPax
Road to EWC
1d 18h
Road to EWC
2 days
BSL Season 20
2 days
Bonyth vs Doodle
Bonyth vs izu
Bonyth vs MadiNho
Bonyth vs TerrOr
MadiNho vs TerrOr
Doodle vs izu
Doodle vs MadiNho
Doodle vs TerrOr
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-05-28
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Calamity Stars S2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLAN 2025
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.