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South Africa4316 Posts
Beetlelisk, we found out that he had spoiled the games before you translated those posts. Your posts just translated exactly what he said. The fact that it happened on a polish site is no excuse either. There are lots of Polish fans watching the TSL, and spoiling the results for them alone is unacceptable. However, like it has already been said, word of mouth allows information like this to travel quickly, and even while the games were being played, people mentioned that Tarson said he lost on a Polish forum. As the original post says, there are few things more harmful to the TSL than results being spoiled:
For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers. Spoiling results to anyone is one of the most damaging things a player can do to our broadcast. It greatly harms the TSL and our ability to secure sponsorship for future tournaments. Players were informed prior to the TSL that any spoilers would result in possible forfeiture of their prize money.
Tarson was upset and he made a bad decision which spoiled good games for many viewers. However, we appreciate all the hard work that he has put into the tournament, and also that he made an honest apology. Because of this, we have only penalized him with half his prize, a compromise which we believe is fair. If players know that they will be penalised if they leak the results, then we won't have this situation when the semi-finals or finals are played (which would be a disaster). On the other hand, Tarson is still rewarded for his hard work and for participating in the TSL. We believe that this is the most fair decision given the situation.
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Posting on a polish forum mitigates the damage of what he did, but it doesn't excuse it in anyway.
What if he had posted on an english site like gosugamers or tlnet? People would be clamoring for his head. He got off really lucky, and I think the tl staff are being very lenient.
So much work goes into TSL, and it's incredible and all he has to do is shut up for a few days
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On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught.
I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way?
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On February 11 2010 06:22 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught. I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way?
That is just damage control though. You need to get to the root of the problem, which is Tarson talking about the games on a forum when he's not supposed to.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On February 11 2010 06:22 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught. I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way?
Did you post the translation before or after the broadcast?
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If they tried to cover it up, then eventually somebody else who speaks Polish will bring it up and then everybody will be in shit. TL will be disgraced, Tarson must be perma banned and the TSL will be hard to keep going. That's not even remotely a good solution.
These kinds of things have happened before, at some point you have to stop slapping wrists and start laying down punishment. Sadly, this time it hit on Tarson, but he got off pretty easy and hopefully it sends a message that will keep this from happening again.
This wasn't an attack on Tarson personally, it was laying down the law on what will not be tolerated. No other solution makes as much sense as what the TSL admins did here.
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On February 11 2010 06:27 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:22 beetlelisk wrote:On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught. I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way? Did you post the translation before or after the broadcast?
After 2 games have been played and 3rd was well on the way.
If I remember correctly NonY didn't reach Tarson's ramp yet, he was about to do it.
What happened then couldn't have been foreseen in any way, could it?
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On February 11 2010 06:29 maareek wrote:
If they tried to cover it up, then eventually somebody else who speaks Polish will bring it up and then everybody will be in shit. TL will be disgraced, Tarson must be perma banned and the TSL will be hard to keep going. That's not even remotely a good solution.
These kinds of things have happened before, at some point you have to stop slapping wrists and start laying down punishment. Sadly, this time it hit on Tarson, but he got off pretty easy and hopefully it sends a message that will keep this from happening again.
This wasn't an attack on Tarson personally, it was laying down the law on what will not be tolerated. No other solution makes as much sense as what the TSL admins did here.
I don't mean pretending as if nothing happened.
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Then why would they remove your post? If they make it look like it wasn't Tarson who said something, it will lead to bad things because someone will point out that it was. If they show that it was Tarson, then they must punish him, which brings us right back to where we are now.
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why are we still having this discussion?
tarson knew the rules and didn't abide by it
he didn't even receive the full penalty
beetlelisk i know you're upset but even tarson acknowledged his mistake, so just live with it and give him the 125$ you said you would give him because you're weird like that
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On February 11 2010 06:17 Daigomi wrote:Beetlelisk, we found out that he had spoiled the games before you translated those posts. Your posts just translated exactly what he said. The fact that it happened on a polish site is no excuse either. There are lots of Polish fans watching the TSL, and spoiling the results for them alone is unacceptable. However, like it has already been said, word of mouth allows information like this to travel quickly, and even while the games were being played, people mentioned that Tarson said he lost on a Polish forum. As the original post says, there are few things more harmful to the TSL than results being spoiled: Show nested quote +For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers. Spoiling results to anyone is one of the most damaging things a player can do to our broadcast. It greatly harms the TSL and our ability to secure sponsorship for future tournaments. Players were informed prior to the TSL that any spoilers would result in possible forfeiture of their prize money. Tarson was upset and he made a bad decision which spoiled good games for many viewers. However, we appreciate all the hard work that he has put into the tournament, and also that he made an honest apology. Because of this, we have only penalized him with half his prize, a compromise which we believe is fair. If players know that they will be penalised if they leak the results, then we won't have this situation when the semi-finals or finals are played (which would be a disaster). On the other hand, Tarson is still rewarded for his hard work and for participating in the TSL. We believe that this is the most fair decision given the situation.
Thank you for clearing that you knew about this before translation...
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On February 11 2010 06:29 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:27 Rekrul wrote:On February 11 2010 06:22 beetlelisk wrote:On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught. I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way? Did you post the translation before or after the broadcast? After 2 games have been played and 3rd was well on the way. If I remember correctly NonY didn't reach Tarson's ramp yet, he was about to do it. What happened then couldn't have been foreseen in any way, could it?
Then blame yourself and apologize to Tarson and pay him 125$ like you said. Once again, just because no harm came from his actions, doesn't mean they weren't wrong.
Please revert this as he is not losing any money in this way; if you will not I will send him exact amount of money he may lose by your decision.
Sorry buddy, but he's losing money because of his decision. And he would have gotten away with it (maybe? lol) if it weren't for your decision to translate and leak it. TL.net's decision is correct. Whether or not he should be given that 125$ penalty or not is up to individual discretion...some may feel thats not fair some feel it's totally justified. Either way what you or anyone thinks doesn't really matter as the power and integrity of this tournament lies in TL.net's hands and they are doing a damn better job than anyone else could.
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Dude you seriously need to calm down. He spoiled the results regardless of whether or not what
time it was, who was subjected to it, etc.. If tl did nothing then anybody could break the rules and there would be no control.
Did tarson like threaten you or something or so you just feel really bad or what? You just wrote the stuff out, somebody else probably would have done it if it wasn't you. He ruined some results (regardlesss of whether or not you think that's spoiling, and it is because it reveals some sort of results whether or not they were directly stated), and that's that.
TL made the right decision.
Edit: for spelling errors
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If you agree to a non-disclosure sort of agreement then it does not even matter if measurable damage has occurred or not, breach of the contract is enough to warrant a penalty.
If anything, he got off lightly. I'm sure if it happens again that player will receive a much harsher penalty.
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It's Tardson what did you expect?
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I wouldn`t treat it like a punishment ; More as a way to prevent such things from repetetion in the future, by giving out a clear message - players cannot spoil.
Price reduction by 50 %.
There is a need for being that harsh - because it makes players respect the rules and more importantly - remember about them at times of frustration and anger, like after a disheartening loss.
Tarson failed hard and it is then, at these times of frustration and anger - when players have to remember not to make it worse.
However I think that it could be lowered to 25 % . Even 50 $ won by playing starcraft is enough to have motivation to not spoil tsl and further in this tournament : 25 % is 100 $ - so I don`t see anyone ignoring it.
Price reduction by 50 % - is it necessary in this case ? The goal of motivating players to not spoil is already achieved, either 50 % or 25 % does this. So in this light, 50 % is a harshness that doesn`t serve anyone. Its not necessary for it to be 50 %.
Reverting this decision is out of question.
Modifyng it - maybe not.
Tl.net would need a solid , really [b[solid[/b] reason to change such decision. Even if it had - still it might be not enough - because reputation of tl.net matters too, if the players are to respect the rules.
This reason might be that this harshness, even though not that harsh, doesn`t serve its purpose.
The purpose of this punishment is achieved by 25 % price reduction anyways.
However, the current decision should and is appreciated , its good and fair.
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On February 11 2010 06:36 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 06:29 beetlelisk wrote:On February 11 2010 06:27 Rekrul wrote:On February 11 2010 06:22 beetlelisk wrote:On February 11 2010 06:12 Rekrul wrote:
beetlelisk:
A breach of contract is a breach of contract. It is irrelevant if what Tarson did actually caused any harm or not. It's about the implications that such behavior that could potentially damage the event. You're right, it is indeed very minor of an offense especially in this case especially how it was posted on such an obscure forum using a language hardly anybody speaks only a short time before the broadcasts. But the fact of the matter is SC tournaments / ladders have gone on far too long without any self-protection and finally TL.net is taking steps to ensure the integrity and entertainment value of it's own tournament along with setting precedent and making an example for other tournaments to come. TL.net has always been a very simple user-oriented site but with many companies like pokerstrategy willing to put up huge prizes on the horizon (sc2 etc) it's important to act more professionally and hold to the contract/rules to a T unless special circumstances arise.
I know what you're trying to argue right now is that these are special circumstances as results were pretty much not spoiled for anyone at all and he didn't say anything exactly and it was language bs blah blah. You also said TL.net is trying to find 'scapegoats.' You are completely wrong. In TL's explanation of the matter they clearly stated that they have sympathy for Tarson and realize what he did was a simple mistake in the heat of the moment. Adding to that they only removed 50% of his prize money instead of 100% which they were totally in their right to do seeing as how he was completely in breach of contract.
If you walk around town shooting a silenced gun in the air for fun with no intention of harming anyone and no one sees you you're not going to get in trouble. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong and that you won't be punished in the event you're caught. I understand but couldn't it just be silenced by removing my post from live report thread and still releasing a warning for anyone who spoils the results in any way? Did you post the translation before or after the broadcast? After 2 games have been played and 3rd was well on the way. If I remember correctly NonY didn't reach Tarson's ramp yet, he was about to do it. What happened then couldn't have been foreseen in any way, could it? Then blame yourself and apologize to Tarson and pay him 125$ like you said. Once again, just because no harm came from his actions, doesn't mean they weren't wrong. Show nested quote +Please revert this as he is not losing any money in this way; if you will not I will send him exact amount of money he may lose by your decision. Sorry buddy, but he's losing money because of his decision. And he would have gotten away with it (maybe? lol) if it weren't for your decision to translate and leak it. TL.net's decision is correct. Whether or not he should be given that 125$ penalty or not is up to individual discretion...some may feel thats not fair some feel it's totally justified. Either way what you or anyone thinks doesn't really matter as the power and integrity of this tournament lies in TL.net's hands and they are doing a damn better job than anyone else could.
I edited what I wrote about looking for scapegoats out.
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Tough for me to side with anybody but the mods here. If i am understanding correctly, the main offense here was Tarson's posting on the Polish site, not beetlelisk's translating the posts. Tarson broke the contract the second he posted on the Polish site, not when beetlelisk translated. TL very easily could have taken all 250. They didn't, they only took half and are giving that half to charity... in my opinion, if there is going to be any disagreement with this decision it should be that harsher punishment could be deserved, not lighter.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
goddamn polish bastard ._. sprzedawczyk ehhh
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How stupid can a person be?... It's tarson's problem if he isn't able to keep calm for a few days, although he knows that he will be punished if he's not capable of doing it.
What have we recognized so far? -> The TSL2 is a well-run tournament with strict rules no one should disobey. All players were informed and accepted these rules before playing...
It's the fault of the players that are not able to play fair. How can a person dare to disobey these rules even after the hard (but good) punishment which occured right after the ladderstage? How is this possible? 8[
So please get it: we, the spectators and fans, want a cheat-, abuse- and spoilerfree tournament. The TSL Team has done a great job so far and hopefully players will stop doing such shit in future.
Personally I have nothing against Tarson. Always thought that he is quite a nice guy. But for the sake of this and future tournaments punishment has to be carried out.
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EPT
