So, when my sister was born, my family was in an extremely difficult financial situation. Me and my mother were living with my grandma, my mom was single after having just broken up with my sister's father (we have different dads) and my mom was trying to get through nursing school. My wealthy Aunt and Uncle are unable to have children and offered to adopt the girl, as they've always wanted a kid. So, my sister was born and then adopted by my wealthy aunt and uncle.
I didn't see her much growing up as my family was always moving around. A few years ago we moved back to the area and now I've been visiting them every weekend staying over from Friday afternoon - Sunday morning, mostly to help them out with littler children. They adopted a boy from Mexico a while back, he's 6 now, and they also occasionally take care of a hyperactive little girl of about 8 years. They were going to become this girl's foster parents, but when the little boy (Let's call him Omar) was growing up she had fits of violence and even bit him in his crib. For the boys sake, they had to send her back to the foster home which has given my uncle intense feelings of guilt. He has her under his care as much as he can though (Let's call her Katie)
So I watch Omar and his friends from school and sometimes I watch Katie. I don't get a lot of time to spend with my sister (Let's call her Sarah) because of this. Usually from about 8-10pm I help her with her homework and we play some board game and then she goes to bed.
There are a few problems, I'll go through them.
1) My uncle/aunt. They are unbelievable hardcore evangelists. To the point where your average Christian would find them reprehensible. My uncle feels that homosexuals, feminists, and atheists are the reason for hurricanes and 9/11, that the President is a Muslim who plans on creating an army of atheist zombies. He teaches my sister that Dinosaurs are not real and that fossils were planted in the ground by Satan and that atheists are possessed by demons. So, as an atheist, this is all very upsetting to me. This would even upset me if I were a Christian who followed a belief system of love, understanding, and tolerance. How do I bring up to her a more rational perspective and begin to help unravel all the bullshit he's stuffed into her brain? I feel that she's an intelligent girl and a bit resentful of her parents in some aspects. She has a lot of respect for me and tends to listen to me over her mother (when her parents get mad at her for being too hyper/whining she usually won't stop unless I ask her to)
So if you were in a situation like this, how would you bring it up? Or at least help her get on the track where she is thinking rationally and scientifically
2) There isn't much "fun" for us to do. When the younger kids are napping, my Uncle is usually busy in his office and my Aunt is out running errands. What sort of things could I do with my sister for our enjoyment and maybe bonding a little? I don't really like board games, that's all we've been doing. My sister is about 13 and not particularly girly or tomboyish. Because of her upbringing her interests aren't the "standard" 13 yo girl interests but she's fairly normal aside form that.
As a christian, I do hate people like that. I mean it really doesn't help anyone, it just makes the people look like idiots and puts a bad image on all christians. Its a shame some people feel thats what they should do.
On January 12 2010 09:30 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Teach her SC!
lol we actually watched fantasy versus ZerO together. More like I was watching it and she sat next to me and asked some questions. She didn't understand it so it wasn't particularly interesting to her.
It's her life, bro. Let her make her own mistakes; you can't shove beliefs down someones throat. when her time comes she'll want truth in the world and create her own beliefs; what you're doing is isn't any superior than what your aunt and uncle did. Let her think for herself, as an individual.
On January 12 2010 09:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote: 2) There isn't much "fun" for us to do. When the younger kids are napping, my Uncle is usually busy in his office and my Aunt is out running errands. What sort of things could I do with my sister for our enjoyment and maybe bonding a little? I don't really like board games, that's all we've been doing. My sister is about 13 and not particularly girly or tomboyish. Because of her upbringing her interests aren't the "standard" 13 yo girl interests but she's fairly normal aside form that.
Have you tried reading books with her? That can be a bonding experience and it might broaden her horizons. You and she could find a nice shady spot somewhere outdoors to read.
Also (especially if you can drive), you can go with her to places like a cinema, museum, concert, park, beach, whatever she's interested in...
Cooking is fun if you have someone to do it with.
Being family means that you don't have to have the same interests and/or personality, you can enjoy spending time together anyway. And if you do happen to have the same interests, so much the better
On January 12 2010 09:31 Revolt wrote: It's her life, bro. Let her make her own mistakes; you can't shove beliefs down someones throat. when her time comes she'll want truth in the world and create her own beliefs; what you're doing is isn't any superior than what your aunt and uncle did. Let her think for herself, as an individual.
yeah it would be just as bad if I convinced her to think for herself and learn about the facts of science as my uncle telling her it is our holy duty to commit genocide in the middle east and kill all of the muslims who are possessed by the devil-spirit
I would say start by showing her some of the parts of the bible that contradict what ur uncle/aunt have been teaching her. Example: Jesus preaching to the prostitutes and murders. Paint this as a contrast to what ur aunt and uncle have been teaching (intolerance). Something to open her eyes to the hypocrisy.
a belif doesn't have to be a god, you know. she can believe in rationality; im a deist btw, so don't confuse me with a religious freak. i believe in natural law. people learn from their mistakes and they'll take great value in it; let her experience them for herself.
On January 12 2010 09:35 Revolt wrote: a belif doesn't have to be a god, you know. she can believe in rationality; im a deist btw, so don't confuse me with a religious freak. i believe in natural law. people learn from their mistakes and they'll take great value in it; let her experience them for herself.
I can't stand by comfortably and watch my sister get indoctrinated into wacky extremist bullshit. She's been taught never to question the bible, never to read anything that isn't by a christian author, they don't even eat at restaraunts not owned by christian owners.
If there is something I can do to break a piece off of the cage she's been put in, I will. She needs some positive outside experience.
1) My uncle/aunt. They are unbelievable hardcore evangelists. To the point where your average Christian would find them reprehensible. My uncle feels that homosexuals, feminists, and atheists are the reason for hurricanes and 9/11, that the President is a Muslim who plans on creating an army of atheist zombies. He teaches my sister that Dinosaurs are not real and that fossils were planted in the ground by Satan and that atheists are possessed by demons.
I hope he's not like this
That's so....disheartening. Well since she does listen and respect you, try teaching her a less paranoid anti everyone way of life, letting her choose what she believes in her own right, given in unbiased circumstances(just derail her from that hardcore evangelist stuff and let her choose how she wants to be). and as Husky said have bonding time playing SC or just watch some TV shows?
1) My uncle/aunt. They are unbelievable hardcore evangelists. To the point where your average Christian would find them reprehensible. My uncle feels that homosexuals, feminists, and atheists are the reason for hurricanes and 9/11, that the President is a Muslim who plans on creating an army of atheist zombies. He teaches my sister that Dinosaurs are not real and that fossils were planted in the ground by Satan and that atheists are possessed by demons.
That's so....disheartening. Well since she does listen and respect you, try teaching her a less paranoid anti everyone way of life, letting her choose what she believes in her own right, given in unbiased circumstances(just derail her from that hardcore evangelist stuff and let her choose how she wants to be). and as Husky said have bonding time playing SC or just watch some TV shows?
He feels that way about Pokemon and Harry Potter. he was disgusted when I was 12 and had some yugioh cards and told me not to show my sister that "sorcery"
I won't lie, I'd very much like to convince her Christianity is a farce, however I've decided that if I do anything it would be leading her toward a skeptical/critical way of thinking and teaching her not to blindly accept whatever her uncle/pastor/teacher says.
Children being taught that science/biology is a satanic lie is some pretty scary shit and I will try my best to undo that. However, what I want advice on is not what to say but how to say it, or rather how to bring it up.
I can't just waltz into her room and be like "HEY, DID U KNOW ATHEISM IS PRETTY COOL AND UR "DAD" IS FULLOF SHIT LOL"
On January 12 2010 09:31 Revolt wrote: It's her life, bro. Let her make her own mistakes; you can't shove beliefs down someones throat. when her time comes she'll want truth in the world and create her own beliefs; what you're doing is isn't any superior than what your aunt and uncle did. Let her think for herself, as an individual.
Uhm, they're pretty much stopping her from doing that by indoctrinating her with bullshit lies. A belief is a belief, but there's still a difference between believing things that are completely absurd, based on nothing but hate and prejudice, etc. and believing things that are based on evidence.
As teenagers get older they tend to pull away from parents' views and explore a bit, especially if the parents have really strong views. If you do too much and cause trouble between her and your uncle you may end up in a situation where you aren't welcome in the home. Just staying in here life and being ready to offer an alternative perspective when she has questions.
As far as activities... maybe get her a head start on a poker career?
On January 12 2010 09:30 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Teach her SC!
best idea in this thread (except maybe cooking thats hella fun w/multiple ppl)
She wants to be a chef, but her dad won't "allow" it since Chef's don't make enough money. He owns a lucrative construction company that operates in Florida and Texas and despises the poor and anyone who pursues a career because of their love/passion.
When I told him I was interested in the career of a Professor (some professors have 6 figure salaries) he told me I might as well go to art school and that education jobs are for the weak and unmotivated. So he wants her to do business or something where she'll be making lots of money, since besides Jesus that's all that matters to him.
I told her she should do what she wants first and think about money second and that if she is successful as a chef she could get involved in the business aspect of owning a restaurant.
So that's actually a really good suggestion, I don't know anything about cooking. Maybe I'll ask her to teach me how to cook stuff.
Wow ive never met people like that but ive heard about them. Such a contrast to my family where they are highly christian but are so moderate and understanding. I would say to just tell her to think for herself and to not take everything they say as truths. If you get too involved you could end up getting banished from visiting (sounds like your aunt/uncle are the type to do that). Just work with her here and there on things and try to give her a way to broader knowlage that she can explore so she doesn't have only one source of information. Just tread carefully coming on too strong would just create this polar relationship where she has them saying one thing and you another which would create a lot of confusion.
Wow, you're right, I'm a normal Christian I guess you could say and I find all that stuff ridiculous.
How old is your sister? Cause at a certain age she should be able to make her own rational decisions and I assume you're concerned because, of course, she might grow up believing that stuff up until she's a lot older. I guess what you could do is just talk to her about it once in a while? It doesn't seem like you need to fully put down what her parents teach her but just nudge yourself in there a bit.
On January 12 2010 09:45 mucker wrote: As teenagers get older they tend to pull away from parents' views and explore a bit, especially if the parents have really strong views. If you do too much and cause trouble between her and your uncle you may end up in a situation where you aren't welcome in the home. Just staying in here life and being ready to offer an alternative perspective when she has questions.
As far as activities... maybe get her a head start on a poker career?
That's exactly why I'd rather influence her way of thinking than her specific beliefs. If I told her "jesus is a lie" and she told that to her Uncle, I wouldn't be welcome. If I told her "beliefs must be backed up by scientific evidence" that's another story.
give her books or take her to see some science exhibitions or talk to biology experts or w/e
then teach her martial arts so she can execute her nutbag parents. pokemon was the fucking biz when i was in year 3 or something, i played red version all day. anybody who thinks pokemon or w/e is sorcery should be taken out and shot
On January 12 2010 09:47 Slaughter wrote: Wow ive never met people like that but ive heard about them. Such a contrast to my family where they are highly christian but are so moderate and understanding. I would say to just tell her to think for herself and to not take everything they say as truths. If you get too involved you could end up getting banished from visiting (sounds like your aunt/uncle are the type to do that). Just work with her here and there on things and try to give her a way to broader knowlage that she can explore so she doesn't have only one source of information. Just tread carefully coming on too strong would just create this polar relationship where she has them saying one thing and you another which would create a lot of confusion.
Yea its true, you don't want to get booted out of her life so you have to be careful. And thankfully I've never met people like this either.
On January 12 2010 09:49 JohnColtrane wrote: give her books or take her to see some science exhibitions or talk to biology experts or w/e
then teach her martial arts so she can execute her nutbag parents. pokemon was the fucking biz when i was in year 3 or something, i played red version all day. anybody who thinks pokemon or w/e is sorcery should be taken out and shot
I thought about maybe giving her a book about biology/science or watching a documentary on evolution with her or something like that. It would start discussion and it wouldn't make me seem too pushy
do you listen to music DoctorHelvetica? I know that me and my sister bonded over that. I didn't really know her when I was younger because we went to different schools and she was in the hospital a bunch so it was awkward but I bought Since I Left You and put it on while we were studying and it became what we talked about all the time, we tried all different genres of music; it was a lot of fun. Not everyone is into music though, especially at that age and I don't know if that's what you're into either.
Also, I encourage you to try and reverse some of the indoctrination, but be careful. I don't imagine you're aunt and uncle will be happy if she repeats what you say to them.
On January 12 2010 09:30 killanator wrote: As a christian, I do hate people like that. I mean it really doesn't help anyone, it just makes the people look like idiots and puts a bad image on all christians. Its a shame some people feel thats what they should do.
On January 12 2010 09:52 Beside_kr wrote: do you listen to music DoctorHelvetica? I know that me and my sister bonded over that. I didn't really know her when I was younger because we went to different schools and she was in the hospital a bunch so it was awkward but I bought Since I Left You and put it on while we were studying and it became what we talked about all the time, we tried all different genres of music; it was a lot of fun. Not everyone is into music though, especially at that age and I don't know if that's what you're into either.
Also, I encourage you to try and reverse some of the indoctrination, but be careful. I don't imagine you're aunt and uncle will be happy if she repeats what you say to them.
Good luck man, I'm pulling for you.
She wouldn't be like "OH HEY CHRIS TOLDME THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THIS"
I know it'll come up eventually that I'm an atheist, the household being the way it is I can't hide it forever. I'd rather choose a time to let it out when it won't be a huge ordeal.
You can start by just exposing her to some awesome things produced by other cultures. Then progress from artifacts to behaviors. Ideally this would involve meeting normal but cool people who happen to believe in crazy shit like that the universe is infinite and made out of tiny spontaneously interacting particles or that people get reincarnated as squirrels, etc.
Watching Planet Earth together might spark some discussion your looking for, and if not it's still informative and entertaining. Get her to watch anime?
I find that most of the time the activity itself isn't what's important, it's just something to do while you talk, so you could do anything really, like cook meals together or go to a movie, watch tv shows, just walk around, and conversation will start naturally. Talk to her about what you're interested in and find out what she finds interesting.
I like how you're taking this seriously, I would if I were you. I'm the youngest in my family but I've always thought of helping a younger sibling learn about the world and how much fun/important it can be.
Also, you can suggest to her cool stuff to look at, things she might not know. Maybe TED.com, or Digg, just basic stuff like that. Though, I guess you don't want to get into trouble if she sees something on there that her 'parents' disapprove of.
Anyways, good luck!
About her being a Chef, even if her 'Dad' doesn't want that for her you can still support her by showing her cool recipes and learning to cook together to perpetuate her interest.
Like xxio said, TED.com is an awesome website. Maybe you could show her the presentation by the guy who makes robots that are wind powered and walk on beaches.
He feels that way about Pokemon and Harry Potter. he was disgusted when I was 12 and had some yugioh cards and told me not to show my sister that "sorcery"
You have great self-control, because honest to Moses, I'd completely fly off the handle if someone said bullshit like that to me. I'm actually laughing as I type this because I'm so mad just thinking about these kinds of people... I would have said, "Hey, Jesus was basically the greatest magician ever born, why all the hate?"
Yeah, look, I was raised in a super-religious, super-conservative household. As an example, my friends were uncomfortable being in my house because of all the pictures and statues of Jesus... heh. Anyway, I don't remember any particular event, but I remember questioning and doubting a lot of what I was told ever since I was eleven, I would often ask 'those' questions to my teachers and bishop. Anyway, my goal wasn't to give you my life story; but it's important to know that just because you're bombarded with bullshit, it doesn't mean you're doomed to be "brainwashed." Skepticism is natural and logical. Your sister will eventually have a moment of "weakness' (as the crazy people say) where she looks he beliefs objectively and begins to wonder. Your fear is that she will supress these doubts and revert to the programming that was put in place by your aunt and uncle. That's rough, but it's not something that you can fully prevent. The best thing you can do is let her know is if she ever has any question about matters like this, or anything at all, that she doesn't want to talk with the guardians about, you're the first person she can turn to. A well advertised open door is very useful to bringing alternative viewpoints to others. Don't worry too much over it. If she trusts you, she'll come to you. You'll just have to wait this one out.
Oh and fossils were put on Earth to test our faith, how dare thee; or, as my parents believe, the Earth is made up by debris of other planets that had collided, and so those fossils are really alien fossils (o.O), and though they, and the encasing minerals, are dated to be billions of years old, the Earth itself has only been in this form for 6000 years... Hilariously convenient, am I right?
Go to the zoo. Go to the science museum. Ride bikes. Shoot hoops. Go to the park. Go to the pool. Watch a movie. Volunteer at an animal shelter with her (walking dogs, petting cats etc etc). Start a model together. Do puzzles.
as for the religious problem: I understand you see her getting indoctrinated and you do not like it. I understand you want to intercede but chances are you will do more harm than good. If you directly compete you will force her to be in the middle. If you subtly try to suggest the competitive mode of thought you are as bad as they are. It is tough when people are raised in hardcore X households but it isn't our place to decide to "free" them or "arm" them with the "superior knowledge."
If she asks you questions answer them honestly. If she wants to know about your belief system share. But don't plot to control her thoughts or beliefs through direct or indirect methods.
just tell her exactly what you think. explain that everybody has their own opinions and that she gets to choose what she believes (and what she does as a career).
in my experience i've always found it best to follow my heart and not care what other people think.
On January 12 2010 11:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Go to the zoo. Go to the science museum. Ride bikes. Shoot hoops. Go to the park. Go to the pool. Watch a movie. Volunteer at an animal shelter with her (walking dogs, petting cats etc etc). Start a model together. Do puzzles.
as for the religious problem: I understand you see her getting indoctrinated and you do not like it. I understand you want to intercede but chances are you will do more harm than good. If you directly compete you will force her to be in the middle. If you subtly try to suggest the competitive mode of thought you are as bad as they are. It is tough when people are raised in hardcore X households but it isn't our place to decide to "free" them or "arm" them with the "superior knowledge."
If she asks you questions answer them honestly. If she wants to know about your belief system share. But don't plot to control her thoughts or beliefs through direct or indirect methods.
Go to the zoo. Go to the science museum. Ride bikes. Shoot hoops. Go to the park. Go to the pool. Watch a movie. Volunteer at an animal shelter with her (walking dogs, petting cats etc etc). Start a model together. Do puzzles.
as for the religious problem: I understand you see her getting indoctrinated and you do not like it. I understand you want to intercede but chances are you will do more harm than good. If you directly compete you will force her to be in the middle. If you subtly try to suggest the competitive mode of thought you are as bad as they are. It is tough when people are raised in hardcore X households but it isn't our place to decide to "free" them or "arm" them with the "superior knowledge."
If she asks you questions answer them honestly. If she wants to know about your belief system share. But don't plot to control her thoughts or beliefs through direct or indirect methods.
Just what he said, you will do no good by forcing it, just show her the world and let her ask herself those questions. Be honest all the time and let her think.
I am curious, what kind of evangelist are they? Presbiterians or what?
lol on a side note that video posted by Doctor Helevtica was amazing! But so far, I think the best thing you can do to bond with her is cooking. I doubt anyone will get mad, and it can be fun to do while offering a reward at the end.
On January 12 2010 09:35 Revolt wrote: a belif doesn't have to be a god, you know. she can believe in rationality; im a deist btw, so don't confuse me with a religious freak. i believe in natural law. people learn from their mistakes and they'll take great value in it; let her experience them for herself.
I can't stand by comfortably and watch my sister get indoctrinated into wacky extremist bullshit. She's been taught never to question the bible, never to read anything that isn't by a christian author, they don't even eat at restaraunts not owned by christian owners.
From what you have spoken in this thread, I despise your uncle with passion. He's everything that's wrong with individuals within in the United States.
i'd totally discuss it directly with your uncle and aunt about religion whenever they bring it up, but since i'm not living your life i'm sure that your judgement is better than mine
i guess alienating them isn't the best thing to do, but i really really don't like those kind of ridiculous people and i love discussing religion with them
On January 12 2010 11:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Go to the zoo. Go to the science museum. Ride bikes. Shoot hoops. Go to the park. Go to the pool. Watch a movie. Volunteer at an animal shelter with her (walking dogs, petting cats etc etc). Start a model together. Do puzzles.
as for the religious problem: I understand you see her getting indoctrinated and you do not like it. I understand you want to intercede but chances are you will do more harm than good. If you directly compete you will force her to be in the middle. If you subtly try to suggest the competitive mode of thought you are as bad as they are. It is tough when people are raised in hardcore X households but it isn't our place to decide to "free" them or "arm" them with the "superior knowledge."
If she asks you questions answer them honestly. If she wants to know about your belief system share. But don't plot to control her thoughts or beliefs through direct or indirect methods.
how can you read the posts in this thread and suggest that teaching the kid the scientific method or skeptical thought is just as bad as telling her that feminists atheists and gays are responsible for 9 11 and that she should never ever read anything that doesnt support their own beliefs?
I actually was raised to a certain point like this. The way I eventually learned it was mostly because my parents cant be with me 24/7. I have a question. Does your sister go to a christian school or is she home schooled?
Your aunt and uncle make all Christians look bad, not everyone believe that obviously... I would suggest taking her to the zoo or a theme park maybe... uhhh a movie or to build a bear? lol
Pure logic! Some common fallacies, maybe work through the ones an evangelist might find acceptable n shiet. Sum deductive reasoning, maybe disguise it! make sum awesome analogies. Oh ya maybe learn and get into sum Socratic method.
also
On January 12 2010 09:31 JohnColtrane wrote: punch your aunt and uncle in the face DICK
I agree with idra - you don't have to tell her god is a lie straight up, just suggest to her to question what she's told and to ask for evidence. That's really the best thing you can do for her, eventually she'll be able to choose for herself.
On January 12 2010 09:30 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Teach her SC!
best idea in this thread (except maybe cooking thats hella fun w/multiple ppl)
She wants to be a chef, but her dad won't "allow" it since Chef's don't make enough money. He owns a lucrative construction company that operates in Florida and Texas and despises the poor and anyone who pursues a career because of their love/passion.
When I told him I was interested in the career of a Professor (some professors have 6 figure salaries) he told me I might as well go to art school and that education jobs are for the weak and unmotivated. So he wants her to do business or something where she'll be making lots of money, since besides Jesus that's all that matters to him.
I told her she should do what she wants first and think about money second and that if she is successful as a chef she could get involved in the business aspect of owning a restaurant.
So that's actually a really good suggestion, I don't know anything about cooking. Maybe I'll ask her to teach me how to cook stuff.
Hello Doctor Helvetica! I think we spoke on the IRC... (and you still rock!) But this is a very difficult issue ( ), especially since it involves somebody you presumably care dearly about, your sister. I don't think you should turn her into an ideological battleground, but rather try to talk to your aunt and uncle, her guardians. You need not convince them that their beliefs are faulty or that they are too extreme... but you might want to ask them to consider the long-term social well-being of the girl they also love.
You are one of the most eloquent people whom I've ever had the pleasure of making a cyber-acquaintance, so i don't think I'll feed you any lines, but here are some points to consider. 1.) Tolerance through ideological compromise. Muslims, like atheists, are not "possessed" by demons, but rather just "misguided." You can give the example of a child who is raised in an atheist family, or raised in a muslim family... the child doesn't know any better, and shouldn't be faulted purely for the absence of exposure to "christ." And so long as they remain benevolently oblivious to the glory of Christ, they should still be respected as God's children. As an atheist, I know this is *probably* (:p) not what you believe (nor is it what I believe, for that matter) but I think using their mindset you can let them see the benefits of letting their little girl at least "accept" other belief systems. 2.) An argument of pragmatism. At some level all religions agree that "God helps those who help themselves." If your sister is able to gain a scientific/rational worldview (even alongside a Christian belief system) she is much more likely to succeed in future endeavors. As an example, she may believe in Divine Creation, but you should explain to her guardians that the academic necessity of at least understanding the scientific mechanism of (if not believing in the theory of) evolution. When she hits high school/college you can open her eyes to reality 3.) Be a quiet role model. I think that the fact that aunt/uncle don't seem to have a problem with your spending time with your sister indicates at least a partial willingness to compromise. They, for example, at least believe that family (in some capacity) trumps religion. Thus, if you are unable to persuade moderation, don't despair and don't get angry. Simply by being a (nonchristian) role model, you are inherently teaching her tolerance, and (hopefully) empathy. From that, in time, an all else follows.
Sorry if none of that helped I literally do not know and have never spent any appreciable time with the type of evangelists your aunt/uncle seem to be. Even the most devout among my acquaintances are reasonable people. I never shy away from civil discourse on religion, and in all of my discussions on the subject, it appears that belief is tempered with rationality; thus I may be underestimating the recalcitrance of your aunt/uncle's intolerant beliefs.
Good luck, anyhow. I hope you're able to prevent your sister from becoming one of those fundamentalist zombies.
Oh snap... I took too long to write this post. So umm tl;dr Incontrol > Idra
Crap... didn't see this part:
I know it'll come up eventually that I'm an atheist, the household being the way it is I can't hide it forever. I'd rather choose a time to let it out when it won't be a huge ordeal.
Everything I wrote was wrong. You're fucked, man. There's no reasoning with people like that.
On January 12 2010 11:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Go to the zoo. Go to the science museum. Ride bikes. Shoot hoops. Go to the park. Go to the pool. Watch a movie. Volunteer at an animal shelter with her (walking dogs, petting cats etc etc). Start a model together. Do puzzles.
as for the religious problem: I understand you see her getting indoctrinated and you do not like it. I understand you want to intercede but chances are you will do more harm than good. If you directly compete you will force her to be in the middle. If you subtly try to suggest the competitive mode of thought you are as bad as they are. It is tough when people are raised in hardcore X households but it isn't our place to decide to "free" them or "arm" them with the "superior knowledge."
If she asks you questions answer them honestly. If she wants to know about your belief system share. But don't plot to control her thoughts or beliefs through direct or indirect methods.
how can you read the posts in this thread and suggest that teaching the kid the scientific method or skeptical thought is just as bad as telling her that feminists atheists and gays are responsible for 9 11 and that she should never ever read anything that doesnt support their own beliefs?
Yup definitely agree. People like them are the reason why someone like Palin even has/had a chance of being a president of the United States.
On January 12 2010 11:12 zekie wrote: just tell her exactly what you think. explain that everybody has their own opinions and that she gets to choose what she believes (and what she does as a career).
in my experience i've always found it best to follow my heart and not care what other people think.
i wish i learned that when i was 13 ^
^
you could play/learn a musical instrument/sing (badly or not) together or in a duet
i know people will call me out on this, but if douchebags in your family are that uptight about religion, just lie about it and fake being a more lenient/liberal christian than they are, if it comes up. it doesn't mean you'll have to give up your beliefs completely, but it might make the difference between being kicked out of their "house" and being allowed to stay and spend more time with your sister.
@IdrA because raising a child to think the way you want them to think is wrong no matter which belief system you hail from. A child should be taught to find the belief system for themselves. If they ask about dinosaurs tell them what you believe and encourage them to find answers for themselves. If they ask about Jesus tell them what you believe and encourage them to pursue their own belief. If they ask about Democracy tell them .. etc etc.
it isn't right to say "This is the way it is and X is stupid, wrong and bad." That short sightedness is the WRONG'ness of many over religious people and equally, overly zealous atheists. I don't expect you to understand greg because on these boards you are about as overzealous with your atheism as it gets. Much of what you hate about religion greg starts when people tell others "this is the only way to think, everything else is wrong and will be punished" the difference is you don't see a difference between what you do and what religious people do when they say those things. I DO!
Believing in a religion is fine. Being spiritual is fine. Being an atheist is fine. Being completely uninterested in all the above is fine. Indoctrinating children one way or the other is not fine.
There is a difference between pushing her into atheism and showing her a method of viewing the world that relies on her own observations and empirical reasoning. I'm not telling her what is right between ideology X and Y, rather telling her the methods by which you can determine for yourself which is why
However, I won't tell her there is any validity in the idea that the earth is 6000 years old, or that fossils are not real, or that science falls under the baseless faith of human religions. I will not tell her what she believes is wrong but I will tell her that science is right.
If it's indoctrination to tell her my uncle is an idiot for saying the Earth is 6,000 years old then it indoctrination for me to tell her gravity is real if he taught her otherwise.
On January 12 2010 18:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote: @IdrA because raising a child to think the way you want them to think is wrong no matter which belief system you hail from. A child should be taught to find the belief system for themselves. If they ask about dinosaurs tell them what you believe and encourage them to find answers for themselves. If they ask about Jesus tell them what you believe and encourage them to pursue their own belief. If they ask about Democracy tell them .. etc etc.
it isn't right to say "This is the way it is and X is stupid, wrong and bad." That short sightedness is the WRONG'ness of many over religious people and equally, overly zealous atheists. I don't expect you to understand greg because on these boards you are about as overzealous with your atheism as it gets. Much of what you hate about religion greg starts when people tell others "this is the only way to think, everything else is wrong and will be punished" the difference is you don't see a difference between what you do and what religious people do when they say those things. I DO!
Believing in a religion is fine. Being spiritual is fine. Being an atheist is fine. Being completely uninterested in all the above is fine. Indoctrinating children one way or the other is not fine.
thats the thing, you dont have to sit her down and have her memorize on the origin of species. 'science' is not a belief. the problem with religion is that they say "and these crackers are jesus' body" and you say "orly?" and they say "fuck you eat the crackers". science says "we evolved from monkeys" and you say "orly?" and then science can show you the path of evidence and logical reasoning that lead to that conclusion. and at any point you can question that reasoning or that evidence, and if it turns out that evolution is indeed demonstrably flawed people would look to different ideas that fit with the existing evidence.
yes, science can be treated as dogmatic. but that is a problem with the people who become attached to theories. the scientific process in itself is inherently undogmatic as it demands that everything be questioned.
Reread my posts. I am not saying "lie" to her. By all means if she asks tell her EXACTLY what you think... but don't tell her that that is the only way to think and that it is "correct" tell her to find the answers for herself and to educate herself.
I am a christian but I damn well don't believe the world is anywhere near 6k years old. I know dinosaurs weren't traps planted by the Devil and I don't think native americans are being punished by the Morman jesus etc etc.. I however feel strongly that when being around children we shouldn't fill there heads with the correct answers according to us and tell them that their parents are idiots.
This is nearly an impossible tidbit of advice I am seeing.. you (and IdrA) apparently have no idea how to interact with children. I know from your perspective what you "know" is 100% true and 100% correct but you aren't looking at the entire picture. It isn't the information that is important it is that this little girl is being raised in a house where she is TOLD what to believe and is educated to believe strongly that anyone that thinks otherwise is wrong and potentially evil. Now when you come to that little girl and say "actually everything they tell you is wrong, and the opposite is true, and if you believe otherwise you are a fool" you think you are freeing her? You think you are equipping her with tools necessary for a successful life later?
If you do think again. You made the blog asking for advice. If you shut down the first good piece of advice you receive it is not her uncle that is the asshat here it is YOU.
But I'm not going to tell her that, I'm just going to encourage her to think for herself and not blindly accept anything anyone tells her including ME.
That's totally different than telling her "Actually everything you say is wrong"
I will just hold you to the line "I'm just going to encourage her to think for herself..." because that is all I ask.
Words like "show her" and "telling her the methods" etc etc.. are a dangerous line. If I grew up in a house where people "showed me" and "told me the methods" for X be it religion or science with the idea of ruling out the other I'd be a fucking confused child ESPECIALLY if I had both (which she could if you don't hold to your word).
Regarding the stuff about your sister and religion, I think her being aware that perfectly normal people who are 'good' (e.g. her brother) can be atheists then that would go a long way for preventing the indoctrination to hardcore christianity through the direct contrast with what her parents are telling her. Simply knowing that it's possible to be a 'good' non-christian would probably help a lot, especially if all her life they even avoid things like restaurants on the basis that they aren't owned by christians.
I definitely wouldn't try and 'subvert' against the parents wishes, because I imagine that is a fast track to being cut off from your sister and that will make things much worse, beyond the fact that she'll possibly be removed from your life. I can't say this for sure though, as I don't know the uncle and auntie, I'm just making a guess here. Plus inc makes good points as to why this would probably be bad.
Can we ask for some more specific details regarding the extent to which she actually follows her parent's beliefs? Has she yet had any major conflicts with her foster parents as a result of differences in belief? She may still be a bit young to have her own "strong positions" on various issues, but this will likely change soon as she progresses through adolesence.
The least you could do is be supportive to her and answer her inquiries thoughtfully with as much honesty as appropriate. If conflicts arise between her and her parents, make sure she knows that you'll be there to support and guide her.
Honestly speaking, if her parent's beliefs are as extreme as you describe them to be (attributing 9/11 to feminists etc), there there's a good chance that the girl won't end up following these beliefs anyways. However, you need to be more specific on the methods that the foster parents employ when 'indoctrinating' her. Do they simply rant, is she sent to 'extremist evangelical' schools, do they prohibit relationships they deem inappropriate to their beliefs but are completely fine by your perspective? I think some people are beginning to assume too much from the information provided; we need more details to give you better advice here!
All in all, the degree to which her foster parents are 'indoctrinating' her should dictate the level of active intervention that you should be taking.
I'm not sure if you want my advice or not, since I'm probably what some people would call an "unbelievable hardcore evangelist" as well but... I appreciate your good will concerning the matter though, so here's my advice:
Most importantly, always be honest. She's probably brought up to despise dishonesty, right? So you'd just ruin things between you if she feels that you have some kind of hidden agenda or that you're not telling her the whole truth about something.
Of course you don't have to throw it all in her face at once, but let her know what you're really thinking about these things when talking about the subject. In other words, don't try to use some kind of strategy to undermine the things she believes just because it will make it easier to say what you really want to say later on or something.
You should accept her stance on things and if you want her to change her thinking about something, then be honest about that too. Let her know that you would like her to change her thinking and also the reason why you want that. It is possible to say this without actually trying to change her. Just be honest about what you want at the same time as being clear that the decision making about the subject is ultimately up to her.
Since you mentioned that you would like her to start thinking a bit more on her own instead of just blindly believing what people says, I'd say it would be a good idea to start talking about these kind of "deeper" topics a bit more. If she doesn't want to talk about it at all then I don't know if there is anything you can do really, but since she has some kind of beliefs it's probably an interesting topic to talk about for her as well because it actually concerns her own life. At least if you're close enough (I guess some people find the subject too personal to talk about with anyone but the people who are closest to them).
And if you feel that you don't really have a topic to start with concerning beliefs and such things, think about what you usually talk about. Maybe you like to talk about movies? Then suggest watching a movie (a good movie of course!) that you know contains topics related to beliefs and thinking. After seeing the movie I would probably just ask her something like "what do you think about that thing he said in the movie, do you think that's true?" and just say that "I've been thinking about this lately, actually I believe that etc etc." Anything to get the discussion started. Because I think that's what you really want... To actually talk to her. Maybe not convince her about something, but at least let her know what you know and think about all this and give her the opportunity to see an alternative way of thinking. Right?
Of course it doesn't have to be a movie, but I think it helps to have some kind of topic to start with that is related to her interests. I guess you could use a lot of different interests as topic starters.
Keep in mind that the most important advice to children comes from example, not speeches. It sounds like she already looks up to you, so I guess you're doing fine.
I think your post addresses two different issues, one being how can you help your sister to grow up and think for herself, and the second is what activities you can do with her. The first issue is a tough one - as others have stated you really shouldn't do anything that will make things hard for you or her, like directly challenging religion or telling her that her father is lying. What you can do however is promote critical thinking, but not to things directly related to the religious issues. Just ask her her opinion on certain things and then ask her why she holds that view. This may or may not get her to critically think about religion but it's a good step, and you can always confront the issue head on when she is older, so even if you can't talk about religion with her now you will be able to later on.
As for what activities you can do I'm not sure. It doesn't seem like you enjoy being in the house too much, so you can maybe plan on taking trips to different places.
Is she home schooled? If so, then it's pretty much a lost cause at the age of 13, especially in that household.
Does she go to public school? You don't have to do shit. She'll grow up and figure things out on her own.
Does she go to private/catholic school? You should still be alright. Don't get the impression that catholic schools are full of evangelical saints that get their knuckles hit with a ruler if they say something out of line (unless you live in the bible belt or something). Most catholic schools that I knew of, including the one I went to, produced 90% normal people to 10% zombies. Those 10% were usually the ones that went into high school straight from being home schooled at a very evangelical household.
EPT
), especially since it involves somebody you presumably care dearly about, your sister.
