As an update I'd like to discuss some plans for continual growth in this endeavor. So far it has gone really well and I have had lots of individuals come to me ranging from B+ up-and-comers to D- nubs struggling to understand this glorious game. So far the results have all been positive which is promising!
I am enrolled in my final classes for college so I can now shape my schedule and openly discuss when I am available.
As of now, Tuesdays and Thursdays are mostly filled up with class time and probably are not conducive to a good training session. However, Monday, Weds, Friday and most weekends ARE OPEN for training.
Additionally, I'd like to offer deals that are both productive for you (the prospective student/customer) and myself:
DEALS 1. If you are a first time student, a 2 hour session is now only 15$ as oppose to the 20$ regular price. This means you get 30 minutes free. The idea is that I want to expose my teaching prowess to more people and hopefully grow my business while not costing you as much with a first time experience.
2. If you purchase a bundle of hours exceeding 4 hours you will get 5$ off each hour purchased after the 4 hours. That means, if you purchase 6 hours of training at once you will pay only 50$
3. Returning customers who purchase 4 hours of training at once get 1 hour free along with the deal discussed in #2. This means for 40$ they get 6 hours of training. This however is a 1 time offer per returning customer.
So hopefully this has good feed back! Let me know your thoughts and as always PM me if you have q's or post in here.
As always, I encourage you to read the customer reviews provided in the first link. As an update, I can now host games so there is no restriction that way.
There is critical discourse in this thread that allows for individuals to consider this coaching with both perspectives in mind. Please, if you are on the fence, read my post on page 4 before ruling it out. This has been a good thing for many including myself and I would hate to miss the opportunity to work with you because of the words of misguided or uninformed (for the most part) individuals I look forward to doing business with you all!
On January 05 2010 20:36 ven wrote: You might wanna get your facts straight so that it doesn't seem like you're ripping people off with misleading slogans.
I think he's just nitpicking #2 like distant_voice suggested. It isn't technically an exponentially growing benefit, although it's clear from your description that you simply get five dollars off per hour over 4 that you purchase so I don't see a problem.
I'm thinking about doing this eventually, and now seems like the best time.
A question though:
How useful do you think this would be for someone who has played StarCraft only minimally (I'm talking a few games on Battlenet, a year or two ago), without any build order knowledge. The only thing they have going for them is the most basic understanding of the game.
Sorry for the confusion, I was just trying to help. I never said that you were ripping people off nor that you were trying to. The statement just bothered me because it increases the the discount's perceived value which might put people off if they notice the fallacy whether it's unintentional or not.
y? because he isn't doing it for free? Obviously there would be to much demand if that were the case + there would be no incentive for Incontrol.
10 $ are pretty cheap after all for an hour of tutoring. I can see this being worthwile for people who want to get better but are somehow stuck at a specific lvl.
That is so cheap, imo. every single starting player (or better obvs) who can afford this should insta call this offer if you're serious about getting better in SC.
Had you offered this a year ago I would've been one of the first in line.
bw classes coming back? lol i remember years ago when it started, satanik(a guy from greece) would give 100h for 100€ and ppl flamed him as hell for destroying their business
Because a defining trait of the Starcaft community was its volunteer contributions, amazing amount of work that some people put in to write articles, bring news, upload/seed vods, write great strategy articles etc. Imagine where we would be now if those people attempted to monetize their contributions. It just defies the whole spirit of the community.
I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
On January 05 2010 23:16 Foucault wrote: I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
You're right - it's greedy to offer an optional service in exchange for payment. Wait, what?
On January 05 2010 23:16 Foucault wrote: I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
I disagree both with your message and method of delivery. If he wants to offer lessons for sale, that's fine. If he does a good job and it's worth it then people will pay (as they are doing apparently). If you are right and he isn't good enough at sc for this, and he's being greedy, then people shouldn't pay for his lessons. If people want his lessons and are satisfied then you have no right to complain.
You could make the argument that he shouldn't use TL as his ad venue but I even disagree with you there.
On January 05 2010 22:53 orangeshines wrote: Because a defining trait of the Starcaft community was its volunteer contributions, amazing amount of work that some people put in to write articles, bring news, upload/seed vods, write great strategy articles etc. Imagine where we would be now if those people attempted to monetize their contributions. It just defies the whole spirit of the community.
It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
No offense, but you're probably the last known player I'd come to for coaching. Your style is messy, you have a lot of mechanics issues, and you're not exactly THAT successful. There's an echo chamber in the US of players your skill level, who are active in the community, praising other US players creating an illusion that some of you are more decent than you are. Artosis does it a lot when it comes to you, Lzgamer and Nyoken. I cry a little everytime I watch a rep of yours and you sit at 3k minerals 15 minutes in.
On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote: It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
StylishVods thread - that helped me as a terran player immensly. And probably tons of other people too. It is a wonderfull structured, precise, detailed compilation of information, advice, strategy. The guy has put a ton of effort into it, he has made vods, replays, everything you need to effectively pick up and play terran. All free of charge. EVERYBODY interested in Starcraft benefits.
If he had gone the 1to1 private lessons route, I am not sure how many people would have benefited. Other than himself that is. Starcraft owes everything to its community and the community wouldn't have gained anything.
If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money.
On January 06 2010 00:39 Scooge wrote: No offense, but you're probably the last known player I'd come to for coaching. Your style is messy, you have a lot of mechanics issues, and you're not exactly THAT successful. There's an echo chamber in the US of players your skill level, who are active in the community, praising other US players creating an illusion that some of you are more decent than you are. Artosis does it a lot when it comes to you, Lzgamer and Nyoken. I cry a little everytime I watch a rep of yours and you sit at 3k minerals 15 minutes in.
Then don't use his service? And stop watching his reps apparently since it makes you "cry".
Honestly, I don't see why ANYONE would have problems with this. He's offering a hard to come by service for people who want to pay for it. His customers are satisfied, so what's the issue?
On January 05 2010 23:16 Foucault wrote: I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
You're right - it's greedy to offer an optional service in exchange for payment. Wait, what?
On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote: It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
StylishVods thread - that helped me as a terran player immensly. And probably tons of other people too. It is a wonderfull structured, precise, detailed compilation of information, advice, strategy. The guy has put a ton of effort into it, he has made vods, replays, everything you need to effectively pick up and play terran. All free of charge. EVERYBODY interested in Starcraft benefits.
If he had gone the 1to1 private lessons route, I am not sure how many people would have benefited. Other than himself that is. Starcraft owes everything to its community and the community wouldn't have gained anything.
If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money.
And what is this. Inc has contributed a ton to the community. But now that he's offering a tutoring service in addition to that, he's ripping everybody off. Wtf logic is this?
On January 06 2010 00:39 Scooge wrote: No offense, but you're probably the last known player I'd come to for coaching. Your style is messy, you have a lot of mechanics issues, and you're not exactly THAT successful. There's an echo chamber in the US of players your skill level, who are active in the community, praising other US players creating an illusion that some of you are more decent than you are. Artosis does it a lot when it comes to you, Lzgamer and Nyoken. I cry a little everytime I watch a rep of yours and you sit at 3k minerals 15 minutes in.
Then don't use his service? And stop watching he reps apparently since it makes you "cry".
That was my personal opinion of him. Of course I'm not going to use his service. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to share what I think or my opinions.
On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote: It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money.
Just purely ridiculous logic: Someone did something charitable for the community so we should hold everyone to that standard. Nonsense.
I don't think you should tell inc what to do with his free time at all. If someone gave me a free drink, I wouldn't get upset when I don't get another free one, nor would I expect that. I'm happy I got it and I moved on.
Incontrol has probably spent in the neighborhood of 5000 hours (about the time it takes to get a degree) playing the game as well as being a proven top player in the game. Someone with these credentials in any other discipline would be charging much more. Accomplished Chess teachers 40+ (closer to 100+ for grandmaster level), billiards 50+ / hour, a poker coach is 100+ and that's for low stakes, a top player will run you 300+ / hour.
That should help put Incontrol's measly 7.50 into perspective. Imo he should raise it.
On January 06 2010 01:10 orangeshines wrote: OK Chill, what is next? A monthly subscription fee for Liquipedia access?
Sure, why not?
The value earned by TL is the members. By having people put their time in, the content gets better, and TL "earns" more members, more and longer page reads and more hits from it (in this example it is the potential earnings of the website when sold, or advertising revenue).
Charging for services which used to be free would alienate the members and be counterproductive to the goal of any free business - getting viewership to later be sold to advertising.
So while I see no problem in charging for Liquipedia access, it would be a completely stupid move. Further, it in no way relates to the point you're trying to make.
I didn't realise that TL was operating on those commercial principles.
But in this view, I agree that Incontrol's service, coupled with the obvious existing demand as signalled by the amount of interest generated so far, does make sense.
Can y'all stop arguing? He wants to make money like this so let him... If he thinks he is good enough to be a teacher of the game then let him make money off it, as long as there are people below his rank he will have customers. If i decided to teach people below C then I could have money off it as well but I wouldn't get business because I'm not as known as Inc is.
PS, what smurf said about the billiards tutors amazes me, I don't really see that game as a game that needs a tutor. I'm not great at it but I can beat most people I play or meet in poolhalls, it just doesn't take that much strategy... unless I see something most people don't?
Paying for lessons is fine, someone well known and good, probably with teaching qualities has a right to earn from teaching. One could say it's little tricky since SC2 is at it's dawn.
However Liquipedia couldn't be carged for, because the contributors theiselves would be the rightful owners of their intelectual property.
On January 06 2010 01:36 GreEny K wrote: unless I see something most people don't?
It's the other way around. You're the one missing something.
Also, you can learn pretty much anything on your own but in most cases it'll be a lot quicker if you're taught.
How am I missing something if I beat most people I play, I just don't understand how they lose if they saw the same shots and opportunities I did... Unless I just execute better?
On January 06 2010 01:14 Smuft wrote: This is a steal imo.
Incontrol has probably spent in the neighborhood of 5000 hours (about the time it takes to get a degree) playing the game as well as being a proven top player in the game. Someone with these credentials in any other discipline would be charging much more. Accomplished Chess teachers 40+ (closer to 100+ for grandmaster level), billiards 50+ / hour, a poker coach is 100+ and that's for low stakes, a top player will run you 300+ / hour.
That should help put Incontrol's measly 7.50 into perspective. Imo he should raise it.
Best post so far.
Supply vs demand, nothing more, nothing less. If people pay for it, it's worth it.
Coaching poker for me at that price would be shooting myself in the foot, people pay more, am I greedy now, too? =P
Oh, also, @ inc: I'd defintly raise the price to 20$+. 10$/h is lower than a shitjob at a mall. Not something a person with years of practice and knowledge should get for teaching other people.
Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
I'm not saying tutoring is bad, but I'm not a fan of the money aspect of it in this case. 99% of the players who pay to get lessons will not make a cent from Starcraft. Also, what does inc teach? Foreign (as opposed to the gosu korean) styles of SC? Low apm play? You don't just "teach" Starcraft, you teach it in a certain way, and is it a good way? Incontrol is a pretty good SC player, I'm not saying he isn't, but he plays the game in his own way just like everyone else. Also, SC is alot about mechanics these days and incontrols mechanics aren't all that impressive.
Also the fact that incontrol is a respected member of the community makes it easy for him to get customers, people who hover at D level and who will never amount to anything in SC. Potentially he could make ALOT of money off these group of people. While I'm all for free markets, I'm not sure that TL should encourage this.
To be honest, I think a lot of the people who are against inc providing lessons are just jealous of the fact that he can make money off of something that they can't.
On January 06 2010 02:51 Empyrean wrote: To be honest, I think a lot of the people who are against inc providing lessons are just jealous of the fact that he can make money off of something that they can't.
:/
When it is 10$/hour i feel really sorry for them lol. Funny haters.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
are u really suggesting that a community filled with gosu players who have never taken the initiative to coach newbies is suddenly going to flood the market and compete with inc who is basically doing this for minimum wage?
and that the "worst case scenario" u outline here is that they will "not want to coach newbies" which is exactly the status quo right now? lol
I'm not saying tutoring is bad, but I'm not a fan of the money aspect of it in this case. 99% of the players who pay to get lessons will not make a cent from Starcraft.
99.999% of students who take piano lessons, or painting lessons, or any sort of lessons will NOT make money off that, so are u saying all those teachers should quit too?
Also, what does inc teach? Foreign (as opposed to the gosu korean) styles of SC? Low apm play? You don't just "teach" Starcraft, you teach it in a certain way, and is it a good way? Incontrol is a pretty good SC player, I'm not saying he isn't, but he plays the game in his own way just like everyone else. Also, SC is alot about mechanics these days and incontrols mechanics aren't all that impressive.
this is stupid because hes clearly getting business so what do u care if others decide to pay him and are apparently satisfied?
Also the fact that incontrol is a respected member of the community makes it easy for him to get customers, people who hover at D level and who will never amount to anything in SC. Potentially he could make ALOT of money off these group of people. While I'm all for free markets, I'm not sure that TL should encourage this.
shouldnt it be a positive that hes a respected member of the community? its not like hes misleading people or stealing their monies, afaik his students are happy -- have u even read a student saying he was dissatisfied?
i dont understand y u are so against it, u just sound like a very negative, haterish person in general
On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote: It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
StylishVods thread - that helped me as a terran player immensly. And probably tons of other people too. It is a wonderfull structured, precise, detailed compilation of information, advice, strategy. The guy has put a ton of effort into it, he has made vods, replays, everything you need to effectively pick up and play terran. All free of charge. EVERYBODY interested in Starcraft benefits.
If he had gone the 1to1 private lessons route, I am not sure how many people would have benefited. Other than himself that is. Starcraft owes everything to its community and the community wouldn't have gained anything.
If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money.
great, tl should stop forcing all its newbies to take lessons then
I can't believe people have such a big problem with this. What's the difference between paying to learn starcraft and paying to learn a musical instrument? You're buying time from someone willing to teach higher level skills then that in which you already have. It doesnt matter how good 'you' think the teacher is, players with less skill that are willing to learn will be drawn to this. And imo for good reason.
I think this is a totally legit service and it's nice to see higher level foreigners willing to share.
With the size of incontrol, I do not believe there should be much resistance in this thread. Everyone should probably stick to saying things like "Sounds great incontrol! I can't wait!"
Not to mention the dude is worshiped on another particular set of forums :p
1. I can understand people are uncomfortable with someone asking for money in return for a service where the community has experienced tremendous charity continually. I just flat out, understand the discomfort with that.
But I'd ask that you take a consideration for the opposing perspective: I am offering, not forcing, to teach individuals what I know and have learned from 11+ years of playing a game for a wage that is very cheap. This hasn't hurt the game of SCBW for anyone, in fact it has made it more enjoyable for many. Why do you care? Has there been a huge influx of foreigners refusing to play noobs unless they get money? Probably not. Are our forums being overran with coaches asking for money? Nope. So why get so angsty when I decide to offer a service that isn't 100% charitable?
2. Criticizing my skill, mechanics or knowledge is pretty shallow logic and doesn't actually apply to the real world. Are you saying all "teachers" in various fields are the best ever at what they teach? No, in fact that is rarely if ever the case. Usually they are just really informed (hopefully) individuals that know how to cultivate knowledge or ability and want to develop that in individuals.
I watch more replays than any 3 of you. I play more games than most 5 of you. I compete in all the top tourneys and I do well. My mechanics aren't top notch, so I don't teach MY mechanics. My style is usually unorthodox, so I teach the mainstream style. I don't understand knocking me with 0 knowledge on what I do and basing it on some reps you saw of me out of context from a tourney or worse: a fun rep uploaded.
Arguing in this blog is fine. I am not going to offer a service then demand that everyone likes it and has nothing bad to say. That is why at the conclusion of EACH SESSION I ask my student, "If you feel good, bad or indifferent I'd like you to share your thoughts in a review so others can read it (if you are comfortable with that)." And so far, 100% have been mostly happy with what they got. The reviews are viewable in the first link btw.
However, bad arguing is not welcome. Posting "lame" or Foucault basically running a terribad argument based on "incontrol sucking" basically is not a constructive approach.
I appreciate the discussion and I enjoy people's opinions but please keep it mindful that this has already been going on for 4-5 months and is now completely successful. Saying it is a "waste of money" or bad for various reasons you don't research (I offer all the info you need in those links) is not good posting.
seriously guys, every time inc posts one of these people get all pissy cuz the dudes trying to make some money. its not like he's forcing anyone to give him money, he's offering a very good service for a very reasonable price. dont like it? fuck off or at least post a logical argument instead of bitching about how incontrol sucks and would therefore be a shitty teacher. and i dont think anyone is qualified to say incontrol sucks unless they qualified for tsl.
On January 06 2010 04:12 DyEnasTy wrote: Hey Inc, where do you get all your reps from?
All the usual places I am just pretty omnipotent about it.. I also have a reputation at this point so a lot of people come to me with reps they get from various methods even I don't know of!
On January 06 2010 01:30 orangeshines wrote: I didn't realise that TL was operating on those commercial principles.
But in this view, I agree that Incontrol's service, coupled with the obvious existing demand as signalled by the amount of interest generated so far, does make sense.
TL doesn't operate under commercial principals the world does. Luckily for us TL in and of it's self does not, and for no reason other than an unparalleled sense of community and willingness to do professional work for nothing in return other than a smile on some people's faces.
I think people are starting to take this for granted.
InControl won a wcg US, and is a professional level zerg. he is currently in a tournament for with a first place prize of 10k and is on a professional team. to suggest he isn't "that good" is absolutely retarded. If you want to argue whether or not he knows how to teach, ask his former students, don't make up wild conjectures as to how it isn't beneficial to low level players.
edit: also 10$ an hour with a shitton of discounts for buying in "bulk" for a top player in any field is ridiculously low.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
If you have other marketable skills or abilities (like poker), this price is low, but for most college students in America 10 USD an hour and the ability to set your own schedule is an ideal job. Internships rarely pay that much more and most are forced to work for minimum wage in the service sector.
You're also assuming other good SC players are from developed western countries. 10 USD an hour for someone from Peru, Chile, etc.. which have large amounts of good players is a decent return.
The reason people don't do it is because the demand is extremely low.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
If you have other marketable skills or abilities (like poker), this price is low, but for most college students in America 10 USD an hour and the ability to set your own schedule is an ideal job. Internships rarely pay that much more and most are forced to work for minimum wage in the service sector.
You're also assuming other good SC players are from developed western countries. 10 USD an hour for someone from Peru, Chile, etc.. which have large amounts of good players is a decent return.
The reason people don't do it is because the demand is extremely low.
You speak of demand as if you have any idea what the demand is for coaching in the foreign SCBW scene.
You have no idea what the demand is.
The reason more people aren't doing it is because it is hard work. And please, don't bother wasting time comparing it to a desk job or manual labor.. I am not saying this is one of the hardest jobs on earth or anywhere near it.. I am saying in a community based on a game coaching someone for multiple hours on something you already know is less than recreational and is work.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
If you have other marketable skills or abilities (like poker), this price is low, but for most college students in America 10 USD an hour and the ability to set your own schedule is an ideal job. Internships rarely pay that much more and most are forced to work for minimum wage in the service sector.
You're also assuming other good SC players are from developed western countries. 10 USD an hour for someone from Peru, Chile, etc.. which have large amounts of good players is a decent return.
The reason people don't do it is because the demand is extremely low.
You speak of demand as if you have any idea what the demand is for coaching in the foreign SCBW scene.
You have no idea what the demand is.
The reason more people aren't doing it is because it is hard work. And please, don't bother wasting time comparing it to a desk job or manual labor.. I am not saying this is one of the hardest jobs on earth or anywhere near it.. I am saying in a community based on a game coaching someone for multiple hours on something you already know is less than recreational and is work.
What? Where did I say anything about this not being a job. It's a job, it's a good job. People aren't doing it because of demand, you can argue all you want, but if the demand were there, MANY more people would jump at this. You're not the only one in this economy who can't find a better job and would resort to this.
Others have tried this and quit because of lack of people willing to pay (Elky, Grr, etc..). Please tell me all about the thousands lining up to take lessons.
Edit: Went through your customer reviews, in 2-3 months you had 13 unique customers who wrote reviews. Unless you're willing to correct this and say it's significantly more, I'm going to stick with lack of demand being the primary reason why this "hard" job is not taken up by more.
In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
If you have other marketable skills or abilities (like poker), this price is low, but for most college students in America 10 USD an hour and the ability to set your own schedule is an ideal job. Internships rarely pay that much more and most are forced to work for minimum wage in the service sector.
You're also assuming other good SC players are from developed western countries. 10 USD an hour for someone from Peru, Chile, etc.. which have large amounts of good players is a decent return.
The reason people don't do it is because the demand is extremely low.
You speak of demand as if you have any idea what the demand is for coaching in the foreign SCBW scene.
You have no idea what the demand is.
The reason more people aren't doing it is because it is hard work. And please, don't bother wasting time comparing it to a desk job or manual labor.. I am not saying this is one of the hardest jobs on earth or anywhere near it.. I am saying in a community based on a game coaching someone for multiple hours on something you already know is less than recreational and is work.
What? Where did I say anything about this not being a job. It's a job, it's a good job. People aren't doing it because of demand, you can argue all you want, but if the demand were there, MANY more people would jump at this. You're not the only one in this economy who can't find a better job and would resort to this.
Others have tried this and quit because of lack of people willing to pay (Elky, Grr, etc..). Please tell me all about the thousands lining up to take lessons.
Everything is relative. Elky/Grrrr... were what, 5 maybe 6 years ago? I, unlike you, wouldn't comment on something I don't know about.. what I do know is NOW I have given over 200 hours of sessions to over 30 individuals in roughly 4 months. Could I live off of this? Nope. So sure, comparing to a real job this isn't experiencing "high demand" but relative to what you are saying I think you are ignorant on the actual level or you are misrepresenting what you are trying to say. There is enough "demand" for me to have 4-5 sessions a week which is a part-time job. I consider that "good demand."
Anyways I don't care to defend this point as it is pretty meaningless. Just was taken aback by your reasoning but you seem to enjoy cross applying things that really have no connection and extracting logic from it so I will give you the opportunity for the final word then close out this argument (as far as I am concerned).
On January 06 2010 02:34 Foucault wrote: Yeah but the thing is that if other good SC players catch on to this (why aren't they btw?) the market will be flooded and prices will eventually drop so low that no one wants to sit and coach a newbie anymore for $2/hour.
other good sc players aren't catching up to this because the price he demands is extremely low. I wouldn't bother doing what inc is doing for less than $30/hour, and at that point I would be charging an amount I wouldn't be certain my service was worth, so I wouldn't be comfortable with it. complaining about him charging $7.50 per hour (or even $10 if you disregard his discounts) is ridiculous.
If you have other marketable skills or abilities (like poker), this price is low, but for most college students in America 10 USD an hour and the ability to set your own schedule is an ideal job. Internships rarely pay that much more and most are forced to work for minimum wage in the service sector.
You're also assuming other good SC players are from developed western countries. 10 USD an hour for someone from Peru, Chile, etc.. which have large amounts of good players is a decent return.
The reason people don't do it is because the demand is extremely low.
You speak of demand as if you have any idea what the demand is for coaching in the foreign SCBW scene.
You have no idea what the demand is.
The reason more people aren't doing it is because it is hard work. And please, don't bother wasting time comparing it to a desk job or manual labor.. I am not saying this is one of the hardest jobs on earth or anywhere near it.. I am saying in a community based on a game coaching someone for multiple hours on something you already know is less than recreational and is work.
What? Where did I say anything about this not being a job. It's a job, it's a good job. People aren't doing it because of demand, you can argue all you want, but if the demand were there, MANY more people would jump at this. You're not the only one in this economy who can't find a better job and would resort to this.
Others have tried this and quit because of lack of people willing to pay (Elky, Grr, etc..). Please tell me all about the thousands lining up to take lessons.
Everything is relative. Elky/Grrrr... were what, 5 maybe 6 years ago? I, unlike you, wouldn't comment on something I don't know about.. what I do know is NOW I have given over 200 hours of sessions to over 30 individuals in roughly 4 months. Could I live off of this? Nope. So sure, comparing to a real job this isn't experiencing "high demand" but relative to what you are saying I think you are ignorant on the actual level or you are misrepresenting what you are trying to say. There is enough "demand" for me to have 4-5 sessions a week which is a part-time job. I consider that "good demand."
Anyways I don't care to defend this point as it is pretty meaningless. Just was taken aback by your reasoning but you seem to enjoy cross applying things that really have no connection and extracting logic from it so I will give you the opportunity for the final word then close out this argument (as far as I am concerned).
As simple as I can:
You don't realize what sort of demand is necessary to create a real market for something like this. You give yourself too much credit when you say the difficulty of this job is why there are so few people willing to do it.
You're the only source for this service during this 4 month period and you had 30 customers. Imagine if 5 more people offered services how much that would cut into your customer base. 10 more? 15 more? There are hundreds and hundreds of B+ foreigners, many from underdeveloped countries who would do this for 10 USD. There is not enough demand to support a market for this. That is why more people aren't willing to do it, not because it's a hard job, not because it pays low.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
Perhaps $10 / hourly is a lot in Iraq, which is going through a rougher economic change than many other developed/developing countries, but... I dunno. I don't know anyone in the city I live in that would think 10 US dollars would be anything substantial. I want to take lessons from incontrol but I have to wait to start my new job in a few weeks, where I'll be making, minimum, $20 an hour teaching. The more students I have, the more money I make, too, so really, I'm going to be making quite a bit more than that. At worst, it'll take me a half hour to pay for a full hour of inc's services. Sweet deal to me, as I have enormous admiration for his skills, and I'm going to work less for the time he puts in.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
Perhaps $10 / hourly is a lot in Iraq, which is going through a rougher economic change than many other developed/developing countries, but... I dunno. I don't know anyone in the city I live in that would think 10 US dollars would be anything substantial. I want to take lessons from incontrol but I have to wait to start my new job in a few weeks, where I'll be making, minimum, $20 an hour teaching. The more students I have, the more money I make, too, so really, I'm going to be making quite a bit more than that. At worst, it'll take me a half hour to pay for a full hour of inc's services. Sweet deal to me, as I have enormous admiration for his skills, and I'm going to work less for the time he puts in.
Ok i guess im just inexperienced in this sort of topic considering ive played the game since 98'. I know most people bitch about the price of MMO's being around 12-15$ a month so in comparison in that same aspect it felt as in just 1 hour on a lesson on a game that takes countless hours improve and master, it felt a bit too much.
Also i dont live in Iraq, im currently deployed. For myself, i can afford 10$/hour quite easily. But i wasnt really talking bout myself.
On January 06 2010 05:29 Scooge wrote: Others have tried this and quit because of lack of people willing to pay (Elky, Grr, etc..). Please tell me all about the thousands lining up to take lessons.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
Perhaps $10 / hourly is a lot in Iraq, which is going through a rougher economic change than many other developed/developing countries, but... I dunno. I don't know anyone in the city I live in that would think 10 US dollars would be anything substantial. I want to take lessons from incontrol but I have to wait to start my new job in a few weeks, where I'll be making, minimum, $20 an hour teaching. The more students I have, the more money I make, too, so really, I'm going to be making quite a bit more than that. At worst, it'll take me a half hour to pay for a full hour of inc's services. Sweet deal to me, as I have enormous admiration for his skills, and I'm going to work less for the time he puts in.
Ok i guess im just inexperienced in this sort of topic considering ive played the game since 98'. I know most people bitch about the price of MMO's being around 12-15$ a month so in comparison in that same aspect it felt as in just 1 hour on a lesson on a game that takes countless hours improve and master, it felt a bit too much.
Also i dont live in Iraq, im currently deployed. For myself, i can afford 10$/hour quite easily. But i wasnt really talking bout myself.
People who complain about MMOs that cost $15/month are uninformed whiners. The cost of maintaining servers so that a persistent world filled with hundreds, if not thousands of players can exist and interact with each other at any given moment.... it's mind-boggling.
Having said that, however, comparing the cost of MMOs to the cost of tutoring is a poor analysis. Many other people in this thread have correctly compared taking a class from incontrol like taking private lessons on an instrument, poker, billiards, etc. Private tutoring is not cheap. Vocal or Piano lessons in Las Vegas (where I live) will average you $60 for a 1 hour lesson. I took American Sign Language private lessons and the guy who tutored me took pity on me and charged me $60 / hour instead of his normal $120. Before that, I was taking Ninjitsu lessons and Contra Bass lessons, both of which came to about $30 / hour.
The point is: you're paying for someone to devote their time to train you. Not everyone can be a good tutor. On top of having to know your field, you need to be able to analyze and instruct an individual (or individuals) and give them advice on how to improve, and be able to properly instruct them to how to practice when they're not under your guidance; not everyone is capable of this.
$10 / hour is about $15 an hour less than I would expect someone to charge for a service. Let us not forget that in Korea they have college classes available on Starcraft and how to play it better. Where there are college courses, there will be private tutors, as well. I would bet money that there are many, many private tutors in South Korea for Starcraft. I'd also put money down that if incontrol marketed himself elsewhere other than teamliquid, he could easily fill his schedule up, to the point where he would have to turn away potential students.
On January 05 2010 23:16 Foucault wrote: I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
I disagree both with your message and method of delivery. If he wants to offer lessons for sale, that's fine. If he does a good job and it's worth it then people will pay (as they are doing apparently). If you are right and he isn't good enough at sc for this, and he's being greedy, then people shouldn't pay for his lessons. If people want his lessons and are satisfied then you have no right to complain.
You could make the argument that he shouldn't use TL as his ad venue but I even disagree with you there.
Yeah, this is the only thing I was going to comment about. Most people I would say shouldn't be allowed to polloute the forums with self advertising, but I guess it could be argued that incontrol has earned it.
On January 05 2010 23:16 Foucault wrote: I think this is getting a bit out of hand tbh. While it's cool to make a little money from teaching a game, you want to make it into a growing business. C'mon, it's Starcraft.
I think this is kind of stupid, you are not *that* good in all honesty. Don't make this into a way to pay for college or your daily life expenses, that's just greedy. The community is built on contribution and you just want to make a buck from bad players.
You're right - it's greedy to offer an optional service in exchange for payment. Wait, what?
And yes Chill, you make a good argument, this is not mandatory service it is optional, but its the same dilemma with the donation threads. Yes, it is optional and no one is required to do it and those who WANT to do it have the right to do so. However should we allow TL to become polluted with these threads? That I don't know. I mean while we could argue that inc has contributed a lot he hasn't done too much except upload a bunch of replays (which is good and all) but when people like gretorp/Lzgamer have streamed hours upon hours of video for us to watch it isn't fair to say he earned something like this over them when I think most would agree having constantly streamed games with commentary is better than just uploaded reps and a high post count.
I mean lets look at Gretorp, I think he is a good example of how he went about advertising his lessons. He set up a streaming channel would constantly stream games and explain builds timing and a bunch of other little shit then would randomly mention that he offers lessons for money (I have heard they were good and very detailed as well) and even so he also taught a LOT of shit on his stream as well and got his "business" growing.
I think that is the most respectable way to go about it, and I am inclined to agree with a post I saw earlier. Incontrol I get that your knowledge of the game is probably very fucking high after watching countless replays and playing for 11 years. But a lot of the people who just watch progaming frequently probably have similar knowledge, just not execution/timing sense. The point I was aiming to make here is that I don't believe your mechanics were ever as sublime as other top players and you do rely a lot on gimmicks and cheeses in order to get an advantage that you can ride to victory or win you a game immediately. I mean I know you used to (if not still ) don't really rely on mutalisk openings in ZvT too much because your control was so weak, so instead did lurker/ling opening with spire mixed in for scourge.
I mean I know that if I were to really try I could probably hit B/B- skill level but I am just a lazy shit. When I train players/friends I have plenty of advice to give them and when watching a replay or a live game I do see the little things that make all the difference. I just get lazy and put everything I know into the game and for the most part just play Phantom Diplo nowadays.
Anyway inc, gl with your lessons even if I don't like the way you advertise it. I recognize that you have plenty of knowledge to share and are probably a pretty good teacher.
I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
You don't realize what sort of demand is necessary to create a real market for something like this. You give yourself too much credit when you say the difficulty of this job is why there are so few people willing to do it.
You're the only source for this service during this 4 month period and you had 30 customers. Imagine if 5 more people offered services how much that would cut into your customer base. 10 more? 15 more? There are hundreds and hundreds of B+ foreigners, many from underdeveloped countries who would do this for 10 USD. There is not enough demand to support a market for this. That is why more people aren't willing to do it, not because it's a hard job, not because it pays low.
You remind me of those managers who are all gung-ho about outsourcing.
"Yeah, we can send all our programming out to poor 3rd world countries and save tons of cash! It will be great!"
Then they realize they suck at defining requirements and it all goes to hell when they have to actually communicate.
So here we have someone:
good at Starcraft
who can speak English clearly
who can teach well, or at least make people feel good about the lesson
Sounds good to me. I doubt he can make a lot of money off this, but who knows?
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
On January 06 2010 06:18 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: And yes Chill, you make a good argument, this is not mandatory service it is optional, but its the same dilemma with the donation threads. Yes, it is optional and no one is required to do it and those who WANT to do it have the right to do so. However should we allow TL to become polluted with these threads? That I don't know. I mean while we could argue that inc has contributed a lot he hasn't done too much except upload a bunch of replays (which is good and all) but when people like gretorp/Lzgamer have streamed hours upon hours of video for us to watch it isn't fair to say he earned something like this over them when I think most would agree having constantly streamed games with commentary is better than just uploaded reps and a high post count.
You act like the blog section is some holy bastion of rational, interesting discourse. Half the threads in there are garbage or have a really, really narrow audience.
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
Well although i dont see the point of it, in other ways i can see how others do. They love the game, they want to get better. If paying someone to teach them will make them think/feel better at the game then by all means they should do it. Its their money . I guess its more of a personal preference, as with everything else.
On January 06 2010 06:18 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: And yes Chill, you make a good argument, this is not mandatory service it is optional, but its the same dilemma with the donation threads. Yes, it is optional and no one is required to do it and those who WANT to do it have the right to do so. However should we allow TL to become polluted with these threads? That I don't know. I mean while we could argue that inc has contributed a lot he hasn't done too much except upload a bunch of replays (which is good and all) but when people like gretorp/Lzgamer have streamed hours upon hours of video for us to watch it isn't fair to say he earned something like this over them when I think most would agree having constantly streamed games with commentary is better than just uploaded reps and a high post count.
You act like the blog section is some holy bastion of rational, interesting discourse. Half the threads in there are garbage or have a really, really narrow audience.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
Well although i dont see the point of it, in other ways i can see how others do. They love the game, they want to get better. If paying someone to teach them will make them think/feel better at the game then by all means they should do it. Its their money . I guess its more of a personal preference, as with everything else.
I wouldnt consider this a scam though.
you are right, i misjudged the whole situation... Regardless of everything if they pay him 10$ they are getting the lesson
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
How stupid do you need to be for complaining about this. Im a left-wing guy and even I couldnt find anything wrong even if I tried. He is charging 10 bucks an hour for teaching something he is relativily good at. If people want to pay to get that, thats their problem. He is helping people who want help for money and they want to be better at a skill that has nothing to do with survival. Its not like he is charging for water and air.
On January 06 2010 06:31 Pooshlmer wrote: You act like the blog section is some holy bastion of rational, interesting discourse. Half the threads in there are garbage or have a really, really narrow audience.
Agreed, but why broaden that scope?
I don't think the scope is at all broadened. Pure (unfunny) troll posts will be deleted, lame posts will be mocked.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
Even though i can afford $10 for going to movie quite easily, i think its outrageous.
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
Put it in perspective. A typical job here in the US would pay you $10 to do just about anything (at least here in California, the minimum wage is over $8 so 10 is no far stretch) Guitar lessons I've seen range from $45-150 for a half hour to hour long lesson. And people pay for it. Are all these guitar playing teachers completely excellent? Have they won acclaim in their field, been in top bands that released records worthy of praise and awards? Probably some of them don't even teach good technique, as some of you seem to want to bash inc for before even thinking to ask a student. But people still pay for lessons from these guys for guitar.
I don't know if the comparison is amazing but gaming and musicianship as hobbies seem related in many ways. I want to take guitar lessons despite the fact that I don't have the income to do so. What inc's doing is a STEAL and the only scam he's pulling is the one on himself for how little he asks for these lessons. $800/month is nothing to write home about (rent here for a 1br apartment is probably $700-800/month), and I think he said himself he so far is earning about $500/month (which is even less than that.)
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
It is difficult to understand the differences in living standards if you don't experience it. How much do you pay in rent a month? For example:
Random 3rd world country: $10? Honestly I don't know. Midwest US: $400 San Francisco, Seattle: $1000 Manhattan, London, Tokyo: $3000+
See the difference? That is why many people would find $10/hr to be really cheap.
I hardly even play BW anymore, but I almost want to do this a couple of times just to see what all the fuss is about. Maybe it'd even make me want to play more again. I would, however, have to set up a pay-pal account and being the lazy procrastinator that I am I don't know if I will.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
Even though i can afford $10 for going to movie quite easily, i think its outrageous.
If Incontrol was teaching giant groups of like 80-100 people (i dunno how many seats are in the average theatre) then he would probably charge a small fraction of his current price, meanwhile for a private party to use a screen at cineplex odeon it's like $180 for 2 hours T_T http://www.cineplex.com/Theatres/Birthdays/XBoxParties.aspx
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
i like how people are saying "he's not *THAT* good". Is IdrA *that* good when you compare him to Flash or Jangbi? Bisu? Stork? Lee Jae Dong? I'm even playing devil's advocate here a little, this isn't even the point i'm going to make. The true point is that IdrA could probably take a few games off of someone like iloveoov, even possibly beat him in a best of 41 (i have no idea nor do i care [i'd love to see it though]; it's not the point). iloveoov could *definitely* outcoach IdrA though.
my point is that a person doesn't have to be an S-class player to teach you starcraft, and originally i'd like to say "he just has to be better than you." That isn't completely true, though. I'm sure that Flash could learn a few things from boxer. Is Flash better than boxer? of course he is. InControl is an old school player who is still performing very well. He is definitely in the top 48 foreigners, and if you scroll up the list of people who qualified ahead of him (for TSL2), i don't know anyone who would be a better TEACHER. We're talking about practice. PRACTICE.
Lastly, someone said "well he's zerg! he can't teach me teh otha racez" What if you need desperate help PvZ because you have bad timing on making cannons in your main vs 2 hatch mutalisks? What if you just cant seem to fend off those pesky lurker drops at your 4th and 5th bases in late game and you tend to lose 30 probes in 10 seconds when you're playing someone really good? I'm sure he would be able to roll over anyone posting in this thread (or almost anyone) by doing a strategy which you would know previously, probably one you need help on. Have a problem pulling off a 1 rax fast expansion vs Z on a certain map? i'm sure he could tell you what you're doing wrong.
Furthermore, he is not an idiot. If you need help PvT, I'm sure he is a good enough. he has 30 students. he can tell you that your macro is bad, your strategy is flawed, or you aren't using your units correctly. I'd also bet that his offraces would beat most if not all C/C+/B-/B maybe some B+ level players (i can think of 1 offhand who hit B+ last season that he could curbstomp by offracing)
I'm not going to rant on this all night, but i don't see why people are hating on someone trying to train the foreign community. Imagine that InControl wakes someone up to all the possibilities, opens their eyes to the world of starcraft, and trains the next bonjwa where fanboys scream HWAITING for the guy in SC2 as he dominates the pro-korean scene. I'm not saying it will happen, but wouldn't that be amazing?
As someone who was a bit skeptical about doing this at first (especially since I know a lot of top foreigners personally) I must say this is really worth it.
Think of it like this- You spend 50 dollars for 6 hours of high end training doing something we all do ANYWAYS. If you are going to spend your time trying to become better, you might as well do it the right way and have fun improving. Think of it as an investment into your hobby, sort of like buying different filters for photography, or stamps for your collection.
I can say, I do this now and I've so far enjoyed it a lot.
Hire ret! I bet the demand of this would go up and people would be willing to pay higher. I think this is cool though, I'd definitely sign up for this.
On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote: oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Ok, then what about instrument tutors? As other people in this topic already said, piano/guitar/etc. teachers charge far more than $10 per hour and they are far worse at what they do comparatively than inc is at Starcraft. And most people who take guitar lessons (fortunately) do not go on to become Steve Vai.
On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote: oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Ok, then what about instrument tutors? As other people in this topic already said, piano/guitar/etc. teachers charge far more than $10 per hour and they are far worse at what they do comparatively than inc is at Starcraft. And most people who take guitar lessons (fortunately) do not go on to become Steve Vai.
There are small diferences, no matter how small they exist. Many people paying a tutor to learn an instrument, dream to be a musician even if they are not the best, or even famous, they can still live their lives as musicians in an orchestra for instance. Others just do it as a hobby, nevertheless will always count for something even if it's just to put it in your curriculum.
In contrast, what would you get for your starcraft skills?
Important note: Do not flame please. I got nothing againt Incontrol, actually I think he's a good player. I'm just stating my opinion about this matter.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Damnit QuakerOats already pointed out what I was gonna say, but ok here it is again: Lets compare it to musical training: I pay 50€ for one hour of guitar lesson. And by one hour I dont mean 60, I mean 45 minutes. Thats over 85$ per 60 minutes of training. Is my guitarist one of the 10 best guitar players in the entire country? Most certainly not. Is Incontrol one of the 10 best players in the USA? Without a doubt. So is incontrol's pricing of 10$ an hour really so outrageous? Fuck no.
P.S. I study medicine and learn the guitar as a hobby. Just like I play starcraft as a hobby.
On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote: oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Ok, then what about instrument tutors? As other people in this topic already said, piano/guitar/etc. teachers charge far more than $10 per hour and they are far worse at what they do comparatively than inc is at Starcraft. And most people who take guitar lessons (fortunately) do not go on to become Steve Vai.
There are small diferences, no matter how small they exist. Many people paying a tutor to learn an instrument, dream to be a musician even if they are not the best, or even famous, they can still live their lives as musicians in an orchestra for instance. Others just do it as a hobby, nevertheless will always count for something even if it's just to put it in your curriculum.
In contrast, what would you get for your starcraft skills?
Important note: Do not flame please. I got nothing againt Incontrol, actually I think he's a good player. I'm just stating my opinion about this matter.
That's what I'm talking about, the people who play instruments as a hobby (and there are many of them). They're not paying >$50 an hour to "put it in their curriculum." They're paying it because they enjoy doing it and they enjoy improving. Same applies to SC.
I see this argument going nowhere.. if you want to pay 10$ per hour to improve your bw skills go ahead. Thinking back about it now, that ain't so bad.. I mean some guys pay hundreds of dollars to get beat up by some freak dominatrix! Compared to that, paying 10 bucks to improve your bw skills is absolutely nothing.
One thing is for sure, I've met some people who are now good players back when they were C- midgets. I can assure you they didn't pay anyone to improve their skill yet they turned that C- into an A- in a bit more than 1 year.
It's all about establishing a goal, play a lot and learn from your mistakes. If you get stuck in a situation you can't surpass on your own, just watch good players replays, you'll eventually find the key to your problem
Hey Inc, thanks for this thread, I love the idiots that keep bashing you for what you're doing. It is highly entertaining as well as being a good service to the community.
People dont realize how much time out of your day it takes. You simply cant do everything for free. If I helped even half the people who asked ME for it I'd have no free time. I can only imagine how it would be for someone who is actually decent at the game.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Then obviously the problem you have is with how much value people are putting on StarCraft. Not any of the other crap you decided to talk about. Everyone has their own standard of values, there's nothing to talk about here.
That's the point... you can't tell other people that $10 isn't worth it because to many people it is.
And the same applies to everything else as well. There are famous guitarists who are self-taught (like Marty Friedman... his picking style is fucked up). But having someone teach you is almost always faster and more efficient.
On January 06 2010 08:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Hey Inc, thanks for this thread, I love the idiots that keep bashing you for what you're doing. It is highly entertaining as well as being a good service to the community.
People dont realize how much time out of your day it takes. You simply cant do everything for free. If I helped even half the people who asked ME for it I'd have no free time. I can only imagine how it would be for someone who is actually decent at the game.
Regardless, keep it up.
You clearly haven't had the decency of reading the whole blog before calling me an idiot.. Otherwise you would have noticed I'm just sharing my opinion and stating some interesting facts.
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
What is the difference between a Starcraft teacher and a language teacher? They both teach you 1 on 1. You don't need to be a English Major to teach someone who has no or little experience of the language (like D- or C starcraft players) but InControll is a Top Starcraft player. So why can't Inc train players in Starcraft for something as small as 10$? I definitely thing he should be charging more.
I think it's pretty ridiculous that people are still arguing about this. HONESTLY, who CARES if $10 is too high or too low, if the whole "SC Lessons for pay" is ethically right or wrong in this kind of community. He didn't start up this service nor post this thread so we can all argue about it. Obviously, this "update 3" is here because his services has been of use to some individuals, and he's posting this offer up again for some more potential clients.
Personally, I wouldn't pay $10/hour, nor any amount of money, to be taught how to play a game. But that's just me, and even with that, I don't see any problem with him offering his services for pay. No need, AT ALL, to compare his fee with other professional fees from different services. He set the price he wants, and there ARE people that are being taught by him. His customer reviews shows that it's working for the people that want it.
Just get off his ass already and go raid another blog
On January 06 2010 08:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote: Hey Inc, thanks for this thread, I love the idiots that keep bashing you for what you're doing. It is highly entertaining as well as being a good service to the community.
People dont realize how much time out of your day it takes. You simply cant do everything for free. If I helped even half the people who asked ME for it I'd have no free time. I can only imagine how it would be for someone who is actually decent at the game.
Regardless, keep it up.
You clearly haven't had the decency of reading the whole blog before calling me an idiot.. Otherwise you would have noticed I'm just sharing my opinion and stating some interesting facts.
Right, right. I'll just share my opinion here:
You're an idiot.
Sadly, it's not very interesting.
It's better to be clear about things than to use backhanded insults like "Paying $10/hr for Starcraft lessons is a scam."
On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote: In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion.
People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different?
On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote: I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork.
I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people.
You got a point there...
Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson.
I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous.
If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a
You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person.
I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10.
You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right?
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
I never said he's the same as a doctor or lawyer. I'm saying that if you believe $10/hr for a specialized service is "outrageous" then you must never have paid for a $300/hr lawyer. Obviously Incontrol teaching BW != doctor, otherwise he'd be charging $300/hour. He's not.
On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote: oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Ok, then what about instrument tutors? As other people in this topic already said, piano/guitar/etc. teachers charge far more than $10 per hour and they are far worse at what they do comparatively than inc is at Starcraft. And most people who take guitar lessons (fortunately) do not go on to become Steve Vai.
There are small diferences, no matter how small they exist. Many people paying a tutor to learn an instrument, dream to be a musician even if they are not the best, or even famous, they can still live their lives as musicians in an orchestra for instance. Others just do it as a hobby, nevertheless will always count for something even if it's just to put it in your curriculum.
In contrast, what would you get for your starcraft skills?
Important note: Do not flame please. I got nothing againt Incontrol, actually I think he's a good player. I'm just stating my opinion about this matter.
No, there are no differences. Do you think every kid who plays piano wants to do it for a living, full time? That makes no sense, plenty of people pay learn leisure skills. Are you saying someone who gets tutored in chess wants to make a living beating Kasparov? Or that someone who pays to go to soccer camp when they are young is trying to make a professional team?
Many people do things for the pure enjoyment of them, and getting better at something they enjoy doing is perfectly natural. You make it sound like in order to pay for lessons for anything, it has to be some sort of resume-builder or career-thing. Paying money for something you enjoy doing is the basis of every recreational activity everywhere. Millions of people do it, and they pay far more than $10/hr for this quality of teaching.
On January 06 2010 07:29 Red_Storm wrote: Hey Inc, you still taking money through Full Tilt?
Yes. And to the guy who didn't want to set up a paypal account I accept money over pokerstars and fulltilt, which are easier to establish.
And in general: Some of you are missing the fundamental points of this entire situation. I am offering a service. It is CLEARLY recreational based as SCBW is not an essential aspect of anyone's life. However, people for thousands of years have paid money towards things that aren't essential but improve the quality of their life. If I can help someone get better at the game they have been playing for years so they can win more games or enjoy a higher level of gaming who the hell are you to tell me it is outrageous to charge a fee? Nevermind the rate, the rate isn't even important. I could charge 5$ and people would say the same thing. Point is, don't judge what others spend their money on with this game. I had a guy sign me up for TLT2 which cost him money for no pleasure aside from him getting to support me and watch me play. I went on to take 4th in the biggest foreigner tourney of that time.. did he GAIN from it? Nope. None of you even know who he is.. but he experienced a joy out of it and he paid money towards scbw with 0 return.
A lot of you that are negatively commenting on the coaching haven't even read the reviews. If you actually had an inkling of consideration you'd do that, not just make assumptions about something and call it a "scam" which btw is so blatantly not the case it actually angers me that you then later say "I am just posting my opinion" n3m0. Posting an ignorant opinion and calling something important to others a "scam" is not simply "posting" it is bad posting. And I'd like it if you either refrained from doing that in this blog or you took the time to read the 2 other threads including the customer reviews and then tell me how it is again, that I am scamming people when I clearly lay out my services, charge a fee, give a service, and they respond positively. It literally goes against the definition of "scam" when people GET WHAT THEY WANT/EXPECTED in return for a fee.
incontrol's competitive gaming style is pretty wild and i would definitely not suggest trying to emulate it because he's... a special kinda guy
however, his knowledge of the accepted standard of gameplay is IMMENSE. the guy definitely knows what he's talking about. if you purchase lessons from incontrol, he can teach you any style of zerg you want to learn. this extends to protoss and terran as well! If you have trouble maintaining a solid C, incontrol can teach you terran and protoss very effectively
You can definitely get the knowledge incontrol offers for free, but it would most likely take alot more time and effort to get better by yourself as opposed to paying for a coach. If you have money that you don't know where to spend and want to get better at starcraft i don't think there is anything wrong with this for the most part.
I do get a slight uncomfortable with charging for something starcraft related anyway though, but i don't really feel i have any rational arguments against it other than a gut-feeling that this is somehow wrong :p ( i don't really think it is wrong, i'm just saying somewhere it feels like it should be wrong-.-).
You guys bashing this should definitely find some real arguments against this if u're going to do it at all, as for me i think it's blatantly obvious from what is shown so far that incontrol is in no way trying to rip anyone off.
It still makes me scratch my head when we as people chose to argue over something we never wanted or never will use just to argue. Or to try to prove they are right. You live in your world and I in mine if you do not like my world get the f out if not stay awhile and put your feet up. But please whatever you do ( nemo scrouge etc) can you stop crapping on the carpet or at least clean it up before you leave/kicked out.
Inc <3 to you and yours sir thanks for being here.
did you just delete gearhead's posts r1ch? haha, nice.
anyways, i really don't get why some people are making this such a big deal. just let people do what they want with their money, if you think it is a waste then don't do it...
On January 06 2010 07:29 Red_Storm wrote: Hey Inc, you still taking money through Full Tilt?
Yes. And to the guy who didn't want to set up a paypal account I accept money over pokerstars and fulltilt, which are easier to establish.
And in general: Some of you are missing the fundamental points of this entire situation. I am offering a service. It is CLEARLY recreational based as SCBW is not an essential aspect of anyone's life. However, people for thousands of years have paid money towards things that aren't essential but improve the quality of their life. If I can help someone get better at the game they have been playing for years so they can win more games or enjoy a higher level of gaming who the hell are you to tell me it is outrageous to charge a fee? Nevermind the rate, the rate isn't even important. I could charge 5$ and people would say the same thing. Point is, don't judge what others spend their money on with this game. I had a guy sign me up for TLT2 which cost him money for no pleasure aside from him getting to support me and watch me play. I went on to take 4th in the biggest foreigner tourney of that time.. did he GAIN from it? Nope. None of you even know who he is.. but he experienced a joy out of it and he paid money towards scbw with 0 return.
A lot of you that are negatively commenting on the coaching haven't even read the reviews. If you actually had an inkling of consideration you'd do that, not just make assumptions about something and call it a "scam" which btw is so blatantly not the case it actually angers me that you then later say "I am just posting my opinion" n3m0. Posting an ignorant opinion and calling something important to others a "scam" is not simply "posting" it is bad posting. And I'd like it if you either refrained from doing that in this blog or you took the time to read the 2 other threads including the customer reviews and then tell me how it is again, that I am scamming people when I clearly lay out my services, charge a fee, give a service, and they respond positively. It literally goes against the definition of "scam" when people GET WHAT THEY WANT/EXPECTED in return for a fee.
I made a correction from my 1st post, it's obviously not a scam. I don't need to be reading reviews I never doubted you were indeed giving good lessons and that your "costumers" were pleased with your teachings. If you read throughout the blog you'll notice that i'm against this whole idea in general, this is not a personal attack..
Anyway i've shared my thoughts about this matter, there's no need to start a flame war when i'm not even flaming anyone.
I just feel sad because some members of this website quote 1 of my posts to call me an idiot.. Anyway what was I expecting, Inc posts something, I state my opinion about the matter (it goes against his idea), his fellow ass-lickers come out of nowhere insulting me without any argument.
I'm not refering to everyone, just a few. Again, I don't have nothing against incontrol and i'm not flaming him.
I've read the very last page of quotes on this blog and have come to the conclusion that the problem is 10 costs too much if you're from portugal :o
Stop complaining guys there's nothing tooo it shit :/ its not even a scam. Imagine yourself spending an hour talking to a guy over ventrillo or something for an hour trying to help him/her improve I would go insane. Incs working hard here and making a fEw extra bucks. He's not going out there making hundreds
On January 06 2010 19:25 OhThatDang wrote: I've read the very last page of quotes on this blog and have come to the conclusion that the problem is 10 costs too much if you're from portugal :o
Stop complaining guys there's nothing tooo it shit :/ its not even a scam. Imagine yourself spending an hour talking to a guy over ventrillo or something for an hour trying to help him/her improve I would go insane. Incs working hard here and making a fEw extra bucks. He's not going out there making hundreds
nah that's not it :p you spend 10$ here in Portugal on your lunch in a normal restaurant
On January 06 2010 07:29 Red_Storm wrote: Hey Inc, you still taking money through Full Tilt?
Yes. And to the guy who didn't want to set up a paypal account I accept money over pokerstars and fulltilt, which are easier to establish.
And in general: Some of you are missing the fundamental points of this entire situation. I am offering a service. It is CLEARLY recreational based as SCBW is not an essential aspect of anyone's life. However, people for thousands of years have paid money towards things that aren't essential but improve the quality of their life. If I can help someone get better at the game they have been playing for years so they can win more games or enjoy a higher level of gaming who the hell are you to tell me it is outrageous to charge a fee? Nevermind the rate, the rate isn't even important. I could charge 5$ and people would say the same thing. Point is, don't judge what others spend their money on with this game. I had a guy sign me up for TLT2 which cost him money for no pleasure aside from him getting to support me and watch me play. I went on to take 4th in the biggest foreigner tourney of that time.. did he GAIN from it? Nope. None of you even know who he is.. but he experienced a joy out of it and he paid money towards scbw with 0 return.
A lot of you that are negatively commenting on the coaching haven't even read the reviews. If you actually had an inkling of consideration you'd do that, not just make assumptions about something and call it a "scam" which btw is so blatantly not the case it actually angers me that you then later say "I am just posting my opinion" n3m0. Posting an ignorant opinion and calling something important to others a "scam" is not simply "posting" it is bad posting. And I'd like it if you either refrained from doing that in this blog or you took the time to read the 2 other threads including the customer reviews and then tell me how it is again, that I am scamming people when I clearly lay out my services, charge a fee, give a service, and they respond positively. It literally goes against the definition of "scam" when people GET WHAT THEY WANT/EXPECTED in return for a fee.
I made a correction from my 1st post, it's obviously not a scam. I don't need to be reading reviews I never doubted you were indeed giving good lessons and that your "costumers" were pleased with your teachings. If you read throughout the blog you'll notice that i'm against this whole idea in general, this is not a personal attack..
Anyway i've shared my thoughts about this matter, there's no need to start a flame war when i'm not even flaming anyone.
I just feel sad because some members of this website quote 1 of my posts to call me an idiot.. Anyway what was I expecting, Inc posts something, I state my opinion about the matter (it goes against his idea), his fellow ass-lickers come out of nowhere insulting me without any argument.
I'm not refering to everyone, just a few. Again, I don't have nothing against incontrol and i'm not flaming him.
Actually husky hadnt even quoted anything from you at all and he didnt say "n3m0 youre an idiot", he said "the idiots who keep bashing incontrol". You were certainly not the only one critical of incs teaching so how do you know he even meant you. Only after your weird self defense there you got called an idiot, which wasnt too surprising by then (not saying that it was right)
how on earth can you be against the idea of offering an optional service... obviously there are people who think its worthwhile to pay for his lessons. so this is awesome for them. there are people who dont think its worthwhile. so they dont take them and it doesnt affect them at all.
On January 06 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote: how on earth can you be against the idea of offering an optional service... obviously there are people who think its worthwhile to pay for his lessons. so this is awesome for them. there are people who dont think its worthwhile. so they dont take them and it doesnt affect them at all.
where is the problem?
There is no problem, people are just voicing their own opinions as to why they think its worthwhile for them or not worthwhile for them.
People are just taking it to literally and think they are flaming inc, when they are just stating why they disagree with this optional service in general.
Kids need to learn how to read or atleast read the whole blog before flaming an individuals opinions.
The only issue I would see with it is how hes advertising on TL. He can feel free to make it his sig, or do what Gretorp did or something, but its just something I can't quite put my finger on. Just posting a bunch of blogs on TL trying to make money seems a little, I dunno, wrong? I mean look at all the admins and coders on this site who do everything for free and they never do anything for profit really. But I don't feel its really fair that he uses TL to advertise his lessons while giving very little if anything back.
I mean if he was donating like 5$ of every 100$ he made to TL for a tournament or something that would be cool. He is basically just getting free ad space.
On January 07 2010 01:38 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only issue I would see with it is how hes advertising on TL. He can feel free to make it his sig, or do what Gretorp did or something, but its just something I can't quite put my finger on. Just posting a bunch of blogs on TL trying to make money seems a little, I dunno, wrong? I mean look at all the admins and coders on this site who do everything for free and they never do anything for profit really. But I don't feel its really fair that he uses TL to advertise his lessons while giving very little if anything back.
I mean if he was donating like 5$ of every 100$ he made to TL for a tournament or something that would be cool. He is basically just getting free ad space.
^ Yeah, this is what bothers me too. I have no issue with incontrol giving lessons for money but do it more discretely or make a website of your own and you can have the URL in your signature or something.
Something just doesn't feel right about this. Nothing costs money on TL, except for pro-gamer swag, which of course is optional. However, incontrol makes pretty easy money from all the newbies who think that they will become good players in 2 hours.
What is even funnier about this discussion is that some people write down some arguments and the other side doesn't even recognize what they are talking about. "I don't understand what you're complaining about" or "I have no idea what you're talking about". How can this be? Are some people just dumb and saying stuff that's retarded? Of course not.
If it was combat-ex making blogs about him tutoring for money he would probably get banned lol.
On January 07 2010 01:38 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only issue I would see with it is how hes advertising on TL. He can feel free to make it his sig, or do what Gretorp did or something, but its just something I can't quite put my finger on. Just posting a bunch of blogs on TL trying to make money seems a little, I dunno, wrong? I mean look at all the admins and coders on this site who do everything for free and they never do anything for profit really. But I don't feel its really fair that he uses TL to advertise his lessons while giving very little if anything back.
I mean if he was donating like 5$ of every 100$ he made to TL for a tournament or something that would be cool. He is basically just getting free ad space.
^ Yeah, this is what bothers me too. I have no issue with incontrol giving lessons for money but do it more discretely or make a website of your own and you can have the URL in your signature or something.
Something just doesn't feel right about this. Nothing costs money on TL, except for pro-gamer swag, which of course is optional. However, incontrol makes pretty easy money from all the newbies who think that they will become good players in 2 hours.
It's a blog by "Incontrol."
You know this before you open it, and you really don't have to open it or read it at all. And it's his blog he can write almost whatever the hell he wants there, and he can definitely advertise just about anything.
On January 07 2010 01:38 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: The only issue I would see with it is how hes advertising on TL. He can feel free to make it his sig, or do what Gretorp did or something, but its just something I can't quite put my finger on. Just posting a bunch of blogs on TL trying to make money seems a little, I dunno, wrong? I mean look at all the admins and coders on this site who do everything for free and they never do anything for profit really. But I don't feel its really fair that he uses TL to advertise his lessons while giving very little if anything back.
I mean if he was donating like 5$ of every 100$ he made to TL for a tournament or something that would be cool. He is basically just getting free ad space.
...
Something just doesn't feel right about this. Nothing costs money on TL, except for pro-gamer swag, which of course is optional. However, incontrol makes pretty easy money from all the newbies who think that they will become good players in 2 hours.
...
Incontrol offering to give lessons isn't optional?
Also, I don't agree with your argument about incontrol not being allowed to "advertise" on TL. First off, you claim that people who work on the website do it without profit. How people create and maintain the website is contextually irrelevant. Incontrol is using the website, and more specifically the blog section, for it's purpose. He is talking about what he does. Secondly, you claim that Incontrol's blog gives very little if anything back to TL. I disagree. It is a benefit for the members of TL to be informed about, and have access to, the services he is offering. It is easy to skip over Incontrol's blog if you're not interested. The blog is no more invasive than if I created a blog that says "Fuck I love gatorade." By reading the blog section you are already expecting a grab bag of whatever someone wants to talk about.
On January 06 2010 22:25 IdrA wrote: how on earth can you be against the idea of offering an optional service... obviously there are people who think its worthwhile to pay for his lessons. so this is awesome for them. there are people who dont think its worthwhile. so they dont take them and it doesnt affect them at all.
where is the problem?
There is no problem, people are just voicing their own opinions as to why they think its worthwhile for them or not worthwhile for them.
People are just taking it to literally and think they are flaming inc, when they are just stating why they disagree with this optional service in general.
Kids need to learn how to read or atleast read the whole blog before flaming an individuals opinions.
You contradict yourself. There are not only people posting their opinions about why it's not suitable for them but there is a discussion about the idea of the service in general. I don't know if everyone read the entire blog but Idra is addressing one of the arguments.
Why is it Tenryu, Foucault and n3mo suddenly think they are the voice of what is right or wrong on TL when Fakesteve, chill, Hot_bid, Sonuvbob, R1ch, Liquid~Drone etc etc etc.. have ALL POSTED IN HERE defending this?
Please guys? We are really straying away from what is even close to the truth.. you have a problem with this.. GREAT I can understand that. But please stop grasping at straws for some kind of final logical death-blow to the coaching concept. There is none. You are uncomfortable with this. It isn't for you. You voiced it. It was heard and argued. Now leave it be. TL has clearly received it fine and there is no inherent damage aside from some discomfort a few people are having with me making money on a website.
You'd think I was pan-handling for fuck sakes. You guys realize I am training people right? What the hell do you think happens in a session? I sit there and go "no, that is wrong. Nope, that was bad" etc etc? NO I REALLY work with these individuals and I REALLY train them. I friend add most of them on ICCUP and continue to answer questions off the clock. I watch reps with them and discuss improvements etc.. I REALLY take this serious and I'd be appreciative if you (the very few that have continued to heckle this concept) would please try and respect that as oppose to try and disrespect that.
guys be car3fuL ok incont0L is using brayn washing device to force u to send him money on papypal
On January 07 2010 03:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Ty Durak, couldn't have said it better myself.
Why is it Tenryu, Foucault and n3mo suddenly think they are the voice of what is right or wrong on TL when Fakesteve, chill, Hot_bid, Sonuvbob, R1ch, Liquid~Drone etc etc etc.. have ALL POSTED IN HERE defending this?
Please guys? We are really straying away from what is even close to the truth.. you have a problem with this.. GREAT I can understand that. But please stop grasping at straws for some kind of final logical death-blow to the coaching concept. There is none. You are uncomfortable with this. It isn't for you. You voiced it. It was heard and argued. Now leave it be. TL has clearly received it fine and there is no inherent damage aside from some discomfort a few people are having with me making money on a website.
You'd think I was pan-handling for fuck sakes. You guys realize I am training people right? What the hell do you think happens in a session? I sit there and go "no, that is wrong. Nope, that was bad" etc etc? NO I REALLY work with these individuals and I REALLY train them. I friend add most of them on ICCUP and continue to answer questions off the clock. I watch reps with them and discuss improvements etc.. I REALLY take this serious and I'd be appreciative if you (the very few that have continued to heckle this concept) would please try and respect that as oppose to try and disrespect that.
do u really think this is a coincidence? who cares if he places consistently in top foreigner tournaments and has extensive knowledge of starcraft he is still an evil fascist forcing you to pay
what is more conspicous than a rarely bumped blog on TL, i mean he might as well put up billboards. actually, i am kind of inspired by his evil genius plans. i might go as far as to charge 20 dollars an hour for something like guitar lessons, I don't know if I'm a bad enough person tho to offer a service to people who are williing to pay
On January 07 2010 03:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Ty Durak, couldn't have said it better myself.
Why is it Tenryu, Foucault and n3mo suddenly think they are the voice of what is right or wrong on TL when Fakesteve, chill, Hot_bid, Sonuvbob, R1ch, Liquid~Drone etc etc etc.. have ALL POSTED IN HERE defending this?
Please guys? We are really straying away from what is even close to the truth.. you have a problem with this.. GREAT I can understand that. But please stop grasping at straws for some kind of final logical death-blow to the coaching concept. There is none. You are uncomfortable with this. It isn't for you. You voiced it. It was heard and argued. Now leave it be. TL has clearly received it fine and there is no inherent damage aside from some discomfort a few people are having with me making money on a website.
You'd think I was pan-handling for fuck sakes. You guys realize I am training people right? What the hell do you think happens in a session? I sit there and go "no, that is wrong. Nope, that was bad" etc etc? NO I REALLY work with these individuals and I REALLY train them. I friend add most of them on ICCUP and continue to answer questions off the clock. I watch reps with them and discuss improvements etc.. I REALLY take this serious and I'd be appreciative if you (the very few that have continued to heckle this concept) would please try and respect that as oppose to try and disrespect that.
I never said I was right or wrong. Everyone has the right to state their own opinion and that's what we are doing. Maybe your friends don't agree or just post here supporting your "cause" cause that's what friends do, I(we) respect everyone's opinion as well as I hope everyone respects mine(ours).
I don't agree with what you are doing. However it doesn't mean you aren't good at it and it also doesn't mean I don't respect what you are doing.
On January 07 2010 03:05 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Ty Durak, couldn't have said it better myself.
Why is it Tenryu, Foucault and n3mo suddenly think they are the voice of what is right or wrong on TL when Fakesteve, chill, Hot_bid, Sonuvbob, R1ch, Liquid~Drone etc etc etc.. have ALL POSTED IN HERE defending this?
Please guys? We are really straying away from what is even close to the truth.. you have a problem with this.. GREAT I can understand that. But please stop grasping at straws for some kind of final logical death-blow to the coaching concept. There is none. You are uncomfortable with this. It isn't for you. You voiced it. It was heard and argued. Now leave it be. TL has clearly received it fine and there is no inherent damage aside from some discomfort a few people are having with me making money on a website.
You'd think I was pan-handling for fuck sakes. You guys realize I am training people right? What the hell do you think happens in a session? I sit there and go "no, that is wrong. Nope, that was bad" etc etc? NO I REALLY work with these individuals and I REALLY train them. I friend add most of them on ICCUP and continue to answer questions off the clock. I watch reps with them and discuss improvements etc.. I REALLY take this serious and I'd be appreciative if you (the very few that have continued to heckle this concept) would please try and respect that as oppose to try and disrespect that.
I never said I was right or wrong. Everyone has the right to state their own opinion and that's what we are doing. Maybe your friends don't agree or just post here supporting your "cause" cause that's what friends do, I(we) respect everyone's opinion as well as I hope everyone respects mine(ours).
I don't agree with what you are doing. However it doesn't mean you aren't good at it and it also doesn't mean I don't respect what you are doing.
So you respect what he's doing but you don't agree with it at the same time.
LOL.
I never said I was right or wrong.
You're wrong. Basically, he's offering a service and if people want it they take it, if they don't want it they don't. It's only ten dollars for fuck sakes lmao. This isn't a war in Iraq or anything man. It's broodwar for ten dollars on the mother fucking internet.
And no, I don't think anyone here respects your sniveling opinion, especially not after saying something as dumb as not agreeing with what he's doing but respecting it at the same time.
Damn Mr. Serial killer I don't exactly agree with what you did but holy fuck I respect you a shitload for being able to get away with it for so long without being caught high five!
Alright. It's not my place to critizise you for giving Starcraft lessons for money, as TL is not my website. I just stated my opinion and I see no need to argue further.
I think it's great what Incontrol is doing. I can understand the viewpoint that people might think by having some sort of business in the Starcraft realm, you deface the community and make it look cheap, like the respective teacher is trying to just make some money from some lower ranked players. However, I believe that stance is terribly incorrect and it's looking at this with blinders on.
I do agree with the idea of optional service so I won't keep talking about that.
However, I want to just touch on the fact that doing this starts to position Starcraft as a serious industry. Once you start services like this, we note that it is becoming more professional, and it allows Starcraft to be taken seriously in the eyes of potential sponsors and companies. I would even hope there are people that are able to teach much better than Incontrol, as I know he has the capabilities to teach very well, he is well organized, and he has the theoretical capacity to teach a wide range of segments. Having someone or competition in the starcraft teaching scene not only makes Starcraft more of an e-sport, it grows the competitive scene, and drives more players into the pool of competitive players which is great for growth of the respective game.
I'm not saying that teaching implies Starcraft is all of a sudden an industry, however, I do think it is a good discriminator in assessing if Starcraft can be a profitable/marketable industry ie good for sponsorship.
I hope people stop looking at this with some made up moral stance based on what they think Teamliquid should be rather look at the big picture and see it as just a trade of a product for currency, just as progamer gear, or teamliquid shirts is a product traded for currency. Just because this product is coming from a mind of a very capable player, and that product is derived by "free" means doesn't mean it should discredit the product as a whole.
Honestly, just watch Day[9] Vods. Keep his tips fresh in your mind, practice, rinse and repeat. A couple hours of "SC lessons" will not change your play noticeably.
On January 07 2010 12:26 superbabosheki wrote: Honestly, just watch Day[9] Vods. Keep his tips fresh in your mind, practice, rinse and repeat. A couple hours of "SC lessons" will not change your play noticeably.
As a regular commentator and a personal teacher, there are some things that you just can't go into detail unless you work with someone. I'm probably one of the few that can say that too and streaming sessions about overall gameplay, keeping in mind your target audience is such a large spectrum, is extremely different than gearing your lesson to a specific person or a group of individuals.
You can't just say that what you think theoretically works for you works for everyone else. Everyone is different and everyone learns different. You can't just say what works for you works for everyone. Please stop trying to undermine the legitimacy of teaching Starcraft one on one as there really aren't any valid points with any bit of substance. Yes there exist free forms of learning Starcraft. I can argue that if i know everything on liquipedia, I will be a top foreigner but it isn't feasible. The learning everything in liquipedia or everything from a single commentator is a massive task that is too big too exhaust all ways of learning the game, and these mediums can't even touch one on one in many aspects.
On January 07 2010 12:26 superbabosheki wrote: Honestly, just watch Day[9] Vods. Keep his tips fresh in your mind, practice, rinse and repeat. A couple hours of "SC lessons" will not change your play noticeably.
As pr0terg said, watching an instructional VOD is helpful in some ways. However, having an excellent player go over your play and point out mistakes and areas upon which you can improve is huge and will definitely facilitate the speed at which any player can improve.
I realize InControl is most likely capable of giving really advanced personal advice to a player, but I would think that most players interested in this endeavor would be between the D- to C- ranks. When teaching players at this level [which I have personally done many times], it's difficult to explain advanced concepts about scouting, cues, game sense etc. You need to start basic and then slowly introduce those concepts. What I am saying is, while InControl is perfectly capable of providing the foundation for improving as a player, I think that information can be found readily and easily for free. I would expect a Zerg of C+ or B- quality to be able to improve a D Zerg player very similarly to InControl up until a certain point, which would most likely be C+ or B-. That's fine, and at that point I would say InControl's personal training would be beneficial, but I am skeptical about the amount of players at this level that would pay for training.
That paragraph seems scattered, basically I am saying that I think the audience that would be interested in paying InControl can receive the same quality basic foundational advice for free elsewhere, and for players that are at the level where InControl's advice is most useful, I wouldn't expect there to be much of a market. Of course this is all speculation, perhaps most of InControls pupils are between the C+ - B ranks.
The debate about "watch vods for better/same advice" and the "this only helps better players (and the same has been said about worse players ironically) is both tired guys
a. vods help. Training sessions help more. Their money is spent on something they enjoy, leave it be.
b. No. I have equally helped a D- player as well as a B+ player and both needed help with their game and received it. Speculating on who i can help more is doing nobody good.. let them decide if I can help (btw, so far the results and the reports have all been good).
I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Things such as rush distance, number of gas expo's, strategic places to put ur tanks(like on blue storm the area behind the nat while using barrack to get vision), and when longinus was first introduced how the extra mineral patch in the main allowed u to pump a ton of marines in tvz. These are just the common things that are mentioned but of course they go much more in-depth than this. Sadly this only applies if you understand korean which sucks becuz alot of my friends who love this game have the desire to improve and mass game, but just blindly copy the progamers without knowing the reason behind it.
But if they knew korean, the announcers go over every detail and what each sides need to be donig to make a comeback. And build orders is a simple matter as u just set the replay in slow speed and copy it verbatum.
Once you learn the build order and have a general understanding of the game through sc vods, you just have to play people that are better than you and just get in the habit of doing everything(building depots on time so u dont get ur supply stuck, constant peon pump, putting an scv in the zerg's third gas expo spot before mutas come out in tvz, etc).
This is just my opinion and what poor ppl like me can do as an alternative. I hope this post doesn't sound like I'm shooting down incontrol becuz i know he's a good player who understands this game but for a college student like me with no job, I'm just better off playing games with him and watching the replay to see where i went wrong. Mostly this game is about repetition and reacting to what the opponent is doing with good scouting.
But for non-korean speaking ppl you can still learn through day[9]'s podcast. He even plays the same race as incontrol. I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned that it would take at least 5 lessons for someone in the D ranks to get good. There are so many resources out there already to learn the basics of this game and although incontrol's guidance would speed up the process, I think this lesson would be more helpful for someone in the C to C+ ranks that hit a brick wall that wants to reach the B and upper B ranks. Becuz by the time ur C level, you have the basics of this game and do things like constant peon production+making overlords on time so ur supply doesn't get stuck - by habit.
Incontrol can of course teach these things but in the end you just have to do it on your own through endless repetition till u can do them by habit.
For a C+ player who already has all of the basics down, incontrol would be very beneficial as to get to the upper B ranks requires more than mechanics alone(this part im not sure of becuz i've never gotten upper B so I wouldn't know which is where incontrol would be very helpful in helping a player get past that brick wall to the next level or rank). Basically I'm trying to say for someone who already has the basics down, incontrol's lesson would be cost effective becuz he is an A level player and knows what it takes to get there.
Sorry if anything was unclear, I'm writing this at 5am so I'm going to bed now.
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of Koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
I stop reading after the first paragraph. You have to understand Korean in the first place. Come on people, the man is just offering his service to the community with a very reasonable price and absolutely OPTIONAL. I see nothing to argue here. Dont like it? Never click the title in the first place. This is in a freaking Blogs section. It meant to be a private thread that the OP can post whatever he wants.
Even if you think Inc. sucked, it's an optional service. It doesn't make sense to get upset over someone selling something that you wouldn't buy. Just don't but it, obviously. Even if this logic makes sense, and it doesn't, there are a shitton more crap out there that are even more ridiculous. You ever go to a "Karate Class?" Those mother fuckers are paying something like $500 a month at some places, basically to get treated like retard special ops, get their asses kicked by some power-trippin' dumbass, and wear power ranger uniforms.
Also, it's $10 for fuck's sake. Before I opened this thread, I didn't even think I would ever consider taking classes. I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to pay someone else for something I can do on my own. But once I saw it was only $10, I was like "WTF? That's it?" I might just even buy a couple hours for shits and giggles. We spend way more than that on way dumber shits and giggles (i.e. night out at movies, food, etc.). And if you learn something, this is going to affect something we like and will like for a long time coming. If you don't learn anything, just think of it as money spent on a bad movie.
Had a great session with Inc this evening, put in 2 hours and they just flew by. Very good at spotting the key problems in my play, such as timings, theories and strategy. It works as a great confidence builder too which certainly helps you play vs unknown iccup people. Sadly the first game I played after the session was a 300apm korean but that wont damper my ambition.
Next time I take some fish's stack on Fulltilt ill probably come back with a different matchup, cheers Inc!
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of Koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
I stop reading after the first paragraph. You have to understand Korean in the first place. Come on people, the man is just offering his service to the community with a very reasonable price and absolutely OPTIONAL. I see nothing to argue here. Dont like it? Never click the title in the first place. This is in a freaking Blogs section. It meant to be a private thread that the OP can post whatever he wants.
good job dumbass, because he addresses that about 2 sentences later. What the hell do you think the next 8 paragraphs are about if he didnt?
u guys are stupid i obviously understood incontrol that he meant he knows how to teach non muta micro oriented styles lol...inc i want a few hours ill let u know soon
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Offtopic:
I think this is a stereotype accidentally perpetuated by Koreans. Every time I am watch Starcraft with a Korean I ask them are the commentators saying anything interesting, and every time they say no. I'm sure there are some great comments in there, but it seems to be in reality closer to 1 in 1000 than 1 in 2 like Koreans on this forum would have you believe. There's this stigma that Korean commentary is just so mindblowing that hearing anything else will cause your brain to implode.
On January 12 2010 05:55 DanCeWithDevil wrote: u guys are stupid i obviously understood incontrol that he meant he knows how to teach non muta micro oriented styles lol...inc i want a few hours ill let u know soon
Sounds good! My m/w/f and weekends are really open. I can do early times on t/thur but I have class later in the day.
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Offtopic:
I think this is a stereotype accidentally perpetuated by Koreans. Every time I am watch Starcraft with a Korean I ask them are the commentators saying anything interesting, and every time they say no. I'm sure there are some great comments in there, but it seems to be in reality closer to 1 in 1000 than 1 in 2 like Koreans on this forum would have you believe. There's this stigma that Korean commentary is just so mindblowing that hearing anything else will cause your brain to implode.
i agree with chill but disagree at the same time:
korean commentary is fun and exciting for the general audience...not really for us if it was translated...but as i'm sure you know, its not directly about what they say but how they say it.... they paint an emotional story and to sit there watching it live on ur big screen is quite riveting
but chills right, for a real starcraft player who follows iccup tsl and shit...they will not often say anything insightful and they full often times make hilariously false few-seconds-before predictions about games(especially mr. overlord LOL)...but the korean fans don't give a fuck because the announcers are superb at the generalistics of their jobs
just as you guys read 'generalistics' as a word from me and understand the meaning, despite it not being a real word, the korean announcers describe intricate strategies in the same way every day
On January 12 2010 05:55 DanCeWithDevil wrote: u guys are stupid i obviously understood incontrol that he meant he knows how to teach non muta micro oriented styles lol...inc i want a few hours ill let u know soon
On January 07 2010 16:44 Salv wrote: I realize InControl is most likely capable of giving really advanced personal advice to a player, but I would think that most players interested in this endeavor would be between the D- to C- ranks. When teaching players at this level [which I have personally done many times], it's difficult to explain advanced concepts about scouting, cues, game sense etc. You need to start basic and then slowly introduce those concepts. What I am saying is, while InControl is perfectly capable of providing the foundation for improving as a player, I think that information can be found readily and easily for free. I would expect a Zerg of C+ or B- quality to be able to improve a D Zerg player very similarly to InControl up until a certain point, which would most likely be C+ or B-. That's fine, and at that point I would say InControl's personal training would be beneficial, but I am skeptical about the amount of players at this level that would pay for training.
I would advise that better players don't necessarily have the best advice in this situation. Every teacher knows this--look at the 20million essays written for admission into teacher education programs. The big challenge teachers talk about is learner diversity. Before you express your bewilderment, put your response into perspective. You're the student that learns from replays and VOD's in a community that has been saturated with both for a long time. Others learn better from feedback, on-the-fly pointers, and in-depth personal replay analysis from a superior player.
I think I was one of the first people to get help. I was a D-/D Zerg 24 hours per day, now I'm D+/C- during western hours and D+ during Korean hours. An example of how Incontrol helped me where a replay didn't is this: My mutalisks were never doing any damage to terrans. I analyzed my replays and figured my mutalisk micro must be poor. We watched the replay of our ZvT game, and he said my mutas were slow, so we watched the replay, an I was making a mistake in the standard build order. I fixed it, and now it's fat-fingering, shitty reflexes, and tunnel-visioning my control group that makes me a bad/mediocre ZvT player.
On an even more valuable and general level, the attention paid to timings during our rep analysis has completely flipped my understanding of early game on its head; I can now compete with players better than me for the first ten minutes (and figure out if they're better based on their timings and responses made during scouting) on a dangerous level by utilizing some timing windows and trying to get an advantage that will let me play a longer game against somebody who would otherwise have killed me with his or her first push.
Lastly, I think somebody owes the ghost of Pafnucy a thank you. Or money.
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Offtopic:
I think this is a stereotype accidentally perpetuated by Koreans. Every time I am watch Starcraft with a Korean I ask them are the commentators saying anything interesting, and every time they say no. I'm sure there are some great comments in there, but it seems to be in reality closer to 1 in 1000 than 1 in 2 like Koreans on this forum would have you believe. There's this stigma that Korean commentary is just so mindblowing that hearing anything else will cause your brain to implode.
i agree with chill but disagree at the same time:
korean commentary is fun and exciting for the general audience...not really for us if it was translated...but as i'm sure you know, its not directly about what they say but how they say it.... they paint an emotional story and to sit there watching it live on ur big screen is quite riveting
but chills right, for a real starcraft player who follows iccup tsl and shit...they will not often say anything insightful and they full often times make hilariously false few-seconds-before predictions about games(especially mr. overlord LOL)...but the korean fans don't give a fuck because the announcers are superb at the generalistics of their jobs
just as you guys read 'generalistics' as a word from me and understand the meaning, despite it not being a real word, the korean announcers describe intricate strategies in the same way every day
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Offtopic:
I think this is a stereotype accidentally perpetuated by Koreans. Every time I am watch Starcraft with a Korean I ask them are the commentators saying anything interesting, and every time they say no. I'm sure there are some great comments in there, but it seems to be in reality closer to 1 in 1000 than 1 in 2 like Koreans on this forum would have you believe. There's this stigma that Korean commentary is just so mindblowing that hearing anything else will cause your brain to implode.
i agree with chill but disagree at the same time:
korean commentary is fun and exciting for the general audience...not really for us if it was translated...but as i'm sure you know, its not directly about what they say but how they say it.... they paint an emotional story and to sit there watching it live on ur big screen is quite riveting
but chills right, for a real starcraft player who follows iccup tsl and shit...they will not often say anything insightful and they full often times make hilariously false few-seconds-before predictions about games(especially mr. overlord LOL)...but the korean fans don't give a fuck because the announcers are superb at the generalistics of their jobs
just as you guys read 'generalistics' as a word from me and understand the meaning, despite it not being a real word, the korean announcers describe intricate strategies in the same way every day
On January 08 2010 20:05 MaRiNe23 wrote: I think alot of koreans would stand by me on this but alot of the learning process can be done simply by watching starcraft vods and listening to the korean commentators alone. They give thorough, detailed analysis from the start of the game till the end and gives strategic insight about the map.
Offtopic:
I think this is a stereotype accidentally perpetuated by Koreans. Every time I am watch Starcraft with a Korean I ask them are the commentators saying anything interesting, and every time they say no. I'm sure there are some great comments in there, but it seems to be in reality closer to 1 in 1000 than 1 in 2 like Koreans on this forum would have you believe. There's this stigma that Korean commentary is just so mindblowing that hearing anything else will cause your brain to implode.
i agree with chill but disagree at the same time:
korean commentary is fun and exciting for the general audience...not really for us if it was translated...but as i'm sure you know, its not directly about what they say but how they say it.... they paint an emotional story and to sit there watching it live on ur big screen is quite riveting
but chills right, for a real starcraft player who follows iccup tsl and shit...they will not often say anything insightful and they full often times make hilariously false few-seconds-before predictions about games(especially mr. overlord LOL)...but the korean fans don't give a fuck because the announcers are superb at the generalistics of their jobs
just as you guys read 'generalistics' as a word from me and understand the meaning, despite it not being a real word, the korean announcers describe intricate strategies in the same way every day
ok this is exactly what i expected. im sure korean commentary is extremely entertaining; sucks i cant understand.
I decided to ask Incontrol for lessons because I wanted inspiration to play the game. To be honest, I only play Starcraft once every couple of months. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of playing against random strangers online, and so I was hoping to gain some inspiration from him after undergoing a coaching session with him.
The coaching session definitely helped. We played a few games and he helped me solidify my builds and understand a basic foundation of timing. He also helped me figure out PvZ better, which is a match up that originally made no sense to me but now makes a lot more sense.
He admitted to me that this was probably the hardest session he ever had. And I figured that it would be as such, as my primary goal was NOT to improve my Starcraft but to actually DESIRE playing Starcraft. Instilling enthusiasm is definitely a difficult goal for any teacher to do, as anyone who has taught classes at an education institution would know. What I didn't actually say during the session, was that by the fourth game I was actually getting bored and wanted to stop playing. It wasn't that I was tired of losing or anything, I just didn't feel like playing.
I don't want ANYONE to think this is Incontrol's fault at all. He is actually extremely fun to play with, and I honestly really enjoyed playing my first few games with him. The compliments he gave to me, whether they were genuine or motivational, did make me want to play some more and did give me a mild spark of interest (when he mentioned that he saw I had potential, that definitely made me happy to hear that from an A- level player ).
However, as Incontrol stated in his session, learning is something that takes time. He outright stated that I wasn't going to magically get better in one session (which I have IMMENSE admiration for, being humble enough to admit that) but that he was giving me the tools to develop my game and I would then apply those tools when I play with other people. Likewise, developing interest takes time. Especially for me - it took me an entire year to finally start to enjoy dancing and an entire year before I started to play DDR competitively.
Incontrol definitely had a difficult student on his hands, but I think what I really enjoyed about him was his passion for his students. He seemed VERY interested in helping me get better and making me enjoy Starcraft more. I think that is far more important in teaching than having the knowledge or having the skills to back it up. A teacher must be passionate about helping his students or they won't learn as well. And I respect Incontrol a lot for being so considerate and helpful to someone who isn't even sure if he wants to play the game.
Overall, Incontrol is an EXTREMELY good teacher. He knows what the most important aspects are to focus on, for a player of my level, and he only focuses on those things rather than try to bombard me with every little facet of a game as complicated as Starcraft.
Do I suddenly now have a burning desire to play Starcraft constantly and ladder on ICCUP? No. However, I do now have significantly more interest in the game than I used to, and now I am looking forward to participation in the CSL and I want to find a way to enjoy the game.
As someone who pays $40 weekly for dance lessons, I can say that Incontrol's lessons are DEFINITELY worth the price. He is very helpful and informative, and he tries his hardest to help his clients with what they specifically want. Most importantly, he understands HOW to teach and how to get people to understand things, which I feel are far more important than his rank or credentials.
On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote: It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money.
If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money.
Just purely ridiculous logic: Someone did something charitable for the community so we should hold everyone to that standard. Nonsense.
I don't think you should tell inc what to do with his free time at all. If someone gave me a free drink, I wouldn't get upset when I don't get another free one, nor would I expect that. I'm happy I got it and I moved on.
not that i mind, but it seems principally contradictory to the entire ideal of teamliquid to promote self gain. the reason being that even though the site was initially built by a small group of core individuals it has since blossomed into much of a community effort. teamliquid no longer spiritually belongs to team liquid members rather everyone who is a member of the site.
given the community mentality people freely post (sometimes feel obligated to give back) translation, replays, fpvod, etc on the site because we all gain from it. this becomes problematic when people decide to promote things for their own gain.
we can take for example the backlash at vgtour linking that happened or when people try to link ebay auctions of beta keys, or even when articles that are freely posted on this site are taken from it in its entirety.
the same principles apply, intellectual property debate aside, why would non-staff writers want their articles to be TL exclusive? how many hours did someone spend translating an article, how many hours did it take to build tlpd or write a final edit? why were they done for free? would you feel the same way if said translation or article were constantly linked externally? these are all questions you should ask in order to understand why people view a paying for service on this site as taboo.
the core staff do a lot of work on this site but without a community there would currently be no core staff. similarly it's the community that still holds TL together there may come a day when teamliquid will have to pay people to write front page articles, update tlpd or liquipedia, or even give advice in the strat forum and the people who seek gain will evoke the same argument you have.
Are you seriously arguing that anyone asking for any compensation on TL.net is going to start a snow-ball effect of one day every service TL offers being exclusive to pay services only?
You know that there are commentators who won't do events without pay right? Xeris has asked for money to run tourneys, is that wrong?
I feel like this philosophical argument has been made and is really more a projection of people's general discomfort with anyone monetarily gaining in SCBW without winning a tourney.
TL isn't running a banner advertising for me. They haven't staffed me and given me my own subforum. I have 3 blogs that I update and bump where people have the option to pay me for a service. A service btw, that is community based and beneficial for more people than just myself. It isn't like I am charging people for the privilege to game with me.. I am literally training them.
It'd be nice if I had the time/money to selflessly train random people with no compensation except that old phantom hero pat-on-the-back but unfortunately I am not in that place. So instead I require a very small fee. Now I know you are uncomfortable with the principle of this process and not so much the logistics but I cannot help but to boil it down to what is literally happening: No, TL has not experienced this influx of people demanding money for services. No, people are not experiencing a vacuum of top foreigners willing to help without pay for various endeavors. In fact all people are "experiencing" are a bumped blog every once in awhile and some private individuals gaining access to a level of training they would otherwise never get near.
On January 16 2010 20:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Are you seriously arguing that anyone asking for any compensation on TL.net is going to start a snow-ball effect of one day every service TL offers being exclusive to pay services only?
depends on what you consider value. what's the difference between what you're doing and writing articles, commenting on replays, or making fpvods? if you give these things value they can be translated into monetary compensation. if they can do these things for free why do others ask for compensation? this isn't some backhanded insult, to understand the mentality you have to understand the answer to the question.
as i have said i don't have a problem with it but it seems principally inconsistent with tl policy and you can see why people are uncomfortable with it.
you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad.
On January 17 2010 08:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad.
you've done exactly what your opposition has accused you of. you've put yourself on a pedestal by disregarding the hard work of other people who've worked to better the community.
what is arbitrary about value? if someone holds something to be of value they are willing to pay for it and clearly you hold yourself of higher value than the volunteers among the community. to you you are infinitely more valuable because they can easily be replaced and thus my exaggerated snowball example holds no grounds. clearly.
my previous post was quite a tangent. you say that people will always step up to fill in the shoes of valuable community members and it's true but why? what motivates people to work without seeking gain?
if you can answer that question you'll have found the essence of what makes this community so great and perhaps receive insight to a perspective which opposes your own.
what's the difference between what you're doing and writing articles, commenting on replays, or making fpvods? if you give these things value they can be translated into monetary compensation. if they can do these things for free why do others ask for compensation?
I don't really see a difference and I am astonished that so many members of TL are willing to do such things for free. I certainly appreciate it, but it's still quite surprising.
None of those people have any sort of obligation to provide a free service to the TL community.
There are people willing to coach for free. Incontrol is not one of those people. If you wish to have Incontrol coach you, you pay him.
On January 17 2010 08:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad.
you've done exactly what your opposition has accused you of. you've put yourself on a pedestal by disregarding the hard work of other people who've worked to better the community.
what is arbitrary about value? if someone holds something to be of value they are willing to pay for it and clearly you hold yourself of higher value than the volunteers among the community. to you you are infinitely more valuable because they can easily be replaced and thus my exaggerated snowball example holds no grounds. clearly.
He's not more valuable, he didn't say that at all, or flash it. He simply stated that his kind is rare, and what he is doing is more difficult, therefore if he wants to charge a small fee, he can.
How is that hard to understand?
So shh when you say he CLEARLY holds him self of higher value, when you're skimming through what he says, and bring up pointless discussion.
(P.S. Mods say its fine, your argument is invalid anyway.)
did you think out what you posted before you decided to do so?
the concept i'm trying to explain is very simple. perhaps i've convoluted it a bit. consider a writer who fills a majority of the TL front page. there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make. you can understand why those who subscribe to such an ideology will find this monetary venture out of place on TL and if TL embraces such a venture what message does it send?
however, it seems this point can wholly be ignored now because cranking out articles with consistently high quality on a weekly basis is quite easy. easy to the point where the supply of writers for these articles far outstrips demand and therefore are of less value. inc said this himself, and you have repeated it while trying to prove otherwise but somehow only succeeded in proving my point. perhaps our definition of value differs.
i'm not trying to get inc to stop so in a sense im not really providing an argument. it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
On January 17 2010 09:47 mahnini wrote: there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make.
Probably this reason: that writer enjoys writing articles for TL enough to do so for no monetary gain.
If said writer doesn't enjoy writing the articles, said writer should stop writing the articles. Doing something you don't enjoy for no gain, or something that you don't feel is worth the time...
it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
I really don't see what this "underlying issue" is.
so what would happen if a writer decides to stop writing for TL and start his own site and perhaps convince other TL writers to join him. not only that but said writer decides to continually link his own site on TL.
you are not forced to click the link and the link contains a good amount of content. should this still be allowed? what do you think the communities opinion on this would be?
On January 17 2010 11:02 mahnini wrote: so what would happen if a writer decides to stop writing for TL and start his own site and perhaps convince other TL writers to join him. not only that but said writer decides to continually link his own site on TL.
you are not forced to click the link and the link contains a good amount of content. should this still be allowed? what do you think the communities opinion on this would be?
It's fine, depending on how "continually" the site is linked. If it's in three blog posts made a while apart, it's fine. If it's in posts made daily, that's against TL rules.
Most of TL would probably dislike this, but none of the staff has any sort of binding obligation to continue working for TL for free.
Certainly whichever writer it is would become an outcast at TL and rightfully so, but if he's willing to do that and thinks the payoff outweighs the drawback it is the correct decision.
edit to pre-empt a response I thought of: Re: outcast at TL
The reason said staff member should become an outcast is that he was previously providing content for free and then charging money for the same content elsewhere (actually I personally wouldn't treat someone who just left to write articles for free on another site as an outcast, and I also see zero reason for anyone to ever do that anyway). It's the "betrayal" aspect that leads to the person being an outcast, not the fact that he's writing somewhere other than TL or charging for the articles (well actually I can't speak for how all TL would treat him. That's my feeling anyway).
On January 17 2010 09:47 mahnini wrote: did you think out what you posted before you decided to do so?
the concept i'm trying to explain is very simple. perhaps i've convoluted it a bit. consider a writer who fills a majority of the TL front page. there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make. you can understand why those who subscribe to such an ideology will find this monetary venture out of place on TL and if TL embraces such a venture what message does it send?
however, it seems this point can wholly be ignored now because cranking out articles with consistently high quality on a weekly basis is quite easy. easy to the point where the supply of writers for these articles far outstrips demand and therefore are of less value. inc said this himself, and you have repeated it while trying to prove otherwise but somehow only succeeded in proving my point. perhaps our definition of value differs.
i'm not trying to get inc to stop so in a sense im not really providing an argument. it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
Yes I did.
They're not embracing incs "monetary venture" they're simply letting it happen, they're not supporting it, they're not helping him, they just are letting it happen. So this makes no sense.
And I didn't say writing articles is simple, what I said was hes a rare kind, with a service.
A lot more people can write articles then can teach starcraft at his level, and you thinking this is a gigantic issue is ridiculous, its some dude charging for a great service, with great feedback.
Plus inc does a ton of stuff for TL, when hes dedicating 4-5 hours STRAIGHT to a student, why can't he charge?
someone in the gg.net news actually made a good point. they tried to have a student/teacher thread and there was a bunch of people who wanted to be students, but a real shortage of qualified teachers. there is a demand for bw lessons, and even though it may seem unfair to the people who provide services for free, theres gonna have to be money involved to make it happen. teaching is not easy, not particularly fun for most people, and to be honest the people qualified to teach have better, more productive things to do with the time they spend on starcraft.
and the analogy with a staff member who breaks off and forms his own site isnt really a good one, hes competing with tl + the betrayal you talked about. there arent any quality free lessons, and as far as i know never have been. incontrol isnt betraying anyone, he isnt under cutting anyone. basically its either no lessons, or pay incontrol 10$ for lessons if you choose to. do you really think it would be better to have no lessons at all?
I cant support you financially one because I suck ass at broodwar and I have other things pressing me for my time other than broodwar. ( i will buy beers for any TL.netter i meet if asked, age appropriate*)
Why it bothers people is silly to me.
Any students of note Inc ? Someone that blew you away skill wise? Someone that shocked or startled you? Anything weird at all ?
i'm all for it. just saying their are differing perspectives of looking at it.
betrayal (in my hypothetical situation) implies that there is some moral high ground in that situation which there isn't because they are not obligated to write for free, but obviously since multiple people brought it up you can see how people would feel that way. why the people would feel betrayed is what i think some people feel with this situation here.
I cant support you financially one because I suck ass at broodwar and I have other things pressing me for my time other than broodwar. ( i will buy beers for any TL.netter i meet if asked, age appropriate*)
Why it bothers people is silly to me.
Any students of note Inc ? Someone that blew you away skill wise? Someone that shocked or startled you? Anything weird at all ?
I always try and avoid naming people directly just because not everyone wants to be continually brought up as a "student" (this has never been an outright issue, I'd just like to be sensitive in case) but I think what has impressed me the most isn't one particular student but how IN GENERAL decent people are. Really my lessons have been about fixing pretty small things and getting them to implement those things in future play.. there of course have been some that need total rehauls or working on critical issues but I have been surprised at how many students are pretty damn good that nobody has heard of. SC2 is going to be interesting hehe.
btw I really respect this argument. There was no name calling and it remained civil.. I appreciate that. I understand my coaching rubs some the wrong way.. all I ask is that people keep an open mind. I really believe in what I am doing and so far the positive feed back from those that have been taking me up on this is 100%.. that is good btw.
Writing is not easy. I would say good writing is harder than good coaching. The difference is that writing an article is one to many, while coaching is one to one. The writers here can come up with something, put it up, and have thousands of people read it. There is no way to coach even 100 people in the same amount of time you can write an article. Watching a livestream is not the same.
Volunteer work is not done in a vacuum. One of the "payments" you get is recognition. Day[9] is great, and you can see him get thrilled as more and more people watch. Another is the feeling of satisfaction from helping others. Coaching Starcraft doesn't really fulfill either of those in the long term.
or maybe some kind of online practice house, where people could pay for daily training.
That way good players already practicing day long together, can just switch off an hour or two to teach some dudes, and then, when he's done, another player takes his place to teach etc --
You could have like "teaching week ends" and stuff.
things like this are a great step in the right direction for esports to become bigger outside of Korea. love it. if sc2 is as good as its supposed to be I'd bet we'll see more teams pop up and do things like this.
I have some negative comments, but I don't think they need to be said because I'm sure those guys are going to have a great time and a wonderful experience.
On January 21 2010 03:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what? o-O
he's jealous he's not in a house surrounded by men
i'd personally never pay for training in a video game, but how anyone can fault you for trying to make a buck is beyond me. let's see someone of similar skill level ste up and do it??
It has been going great and the nay-sayers in this thread really only comprise a SMALL percentage of people who feel that way... overall I receive tremendous support and I think that makes sense for the reasons you state.
Pretty open schedule guys, get in touch if you have q's or want to schedule something.
On January 21 2010 03:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what? o-O
he's jealous he's not in a house surrounded by men
i'd personally never pay for training in a video game, but how anyone can fault you for trying to make a buck is beyond me. let's see someone of similar skill level ste up and do it??
On January 21 2010 03:33 {88}iNcontroL wrote: what? o-O
he's jealous he's not in a house surrounded by men
i'd personally never pay for training in a video game, but how anyone can fault you for trying to make a buck is beyond me. let's see someone of similar skill level ste up and do it??
Inc is totally cool with us waging all out war on each other here because it continually bumps his thread. Since you were going all 5th grade on me I was going to reference your mom or sister, but decided to take the high road. My class and elegance points are just skyrocketing to your mudslinging slander campaign.
for the sake of the post though I'll just say if I still had the desire to want to play this game more than 2-3games a week I would totally do this. It seems not only would it be worth while, but I'm sure it would be fun getting some lessons from Inc.
hmmmm I paid $20 for an hour, and it dropped!? damn... Depending on if i play enough poker in the upcoming week I might hit you up again Geoff. My PvZ is dying at C rank right now.
On January 31 2010 14:44 CaucasianAsian wrote: hmmmm I paid $20 for an hour, and it dropped!? damn... Depending on if i play enough poker in the upcoming week I might hit you up again Geoff. My PvZ is dying at C rank right now.
heh
I do 2 hour sessions for first time customers at 15$
Session following that are the regular price of 20$
StarCraft Tutor Wanted (Downtown Toronto) Date: 2010-01-24, 4:03PM EST Reply to: job-pfqeg-1568491534@craigslist.org
Starcraft Tutor wanted, with excellent win record.
* Location: Downtown Toronto * Compensation: $12/hr * Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster. * Please, no phone calls about this job! * Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
StarCraft Tutor Wanted (Downtown Toronto) Date: 2010-01-24, 4:03PM EST Reply to: job-pfqeg-1568491534@craigslist.org
Starcraft Tutor wanted, with excellent win record.
* Location: Downtown Toronto * Compensation: $12/hr * Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster. * Please, no phone calls about this job! * Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
EPT
I am just pretty omnipotent about it.. I also have a reputation at this point so a lot of people come to me with reps they get from various methods even I don't know of!
