EPTRecommend me a game - Page 4
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Yaqoob
Canada3351 Posts
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shavingcream66
United States1219 Posts
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
On October 01 2009 03:50 Foucault wrote: After TheYango ripped ToEE a new one I probably won't be playing it but instead go for Icewind Dale II I think. Dont let one persons opinion stop you from experiencing the greatest CRPG combat system ever created. TheYango, you did not specify if you played the co8.org modded version or the vanilla (broken) version. As I said Im not a D&D junkie (I just play the PC games) so I dont know the intricasies but I find it hard to belive that a community like Circle of Eight who are mostly 30+ year old D&D players, wouldnt do everything in their power to created a game as close to table top as and CRPG has ever come. And IMO thats exactly what they have done. Could you please name a couple games that surpass TOEE's TBS Combat system? You seem to be aware of better ones, I would like to try them. Also, as far your battle strategies go, I can say a few things. 1 - your battle sequence is pretty much the same as any infinity game (diable,buff,tank,kill - repeat). I dont understand your point. 2 - games of this nature can almost always be exploited to created a super character. This is a role playing game, it is your responsibility to play that ROLE. If you choose to make a uber-godly character, then thats your choice. I dont see this as a flaw in the game, I see it as quite the boon. TOEE is very much a sandbox game. Its a simple dungeon crawl. Make a party and see how long you can survive. Rinse/Repeat. So much fun. 3 - Again, perhaps you need to think outside the box a little bit and try some different strategies. Honestly its not the games fault that you choose to approch every battle in the same manner. Let me just say a thing or two of why I think this game is "close to table top as they come" If your a D&D player, you would probably recognize these terms, if not, Im not gonna explain them. - Ready vs Withdrawl, Ready vs Spell, Spell Counter, Ready Vs Approch, Feint, Withdrawl, Run, Flee, Coup De Grace, Trip Attack, Charge Attack, Fight Defensively, Cast Defensivley, Deal Non-Lethal Damage Five foot step, Full attack, Thrown Weapons, Spell components (certain spells require you to have "ingredients" in your inventory to cast), crafting, and so much more. I could go on and on. These are all really intresting options and they make combat so tactical and diverse. I really dont understand your complaints. I would also like to point out that i am infact a very big fan of the Black Isle games (RIP), but having recenty played through BG1&2 in some epic run through, I just really realised how lacking the combat was. But to each his own I guess, my point is FOCAULT. I hope you at least give this a shot. Its a fantastic game. EDIT: Here is a fantastic write-up of the game: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23648 Please read this if you want to learn more about the game | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: TheYango, you did not specify if you played the co8.org modded version or the vanilla (broken) version. As I said Im not a D&D junkie (I just play the PC games) so I dont know the intricasies but I find it hard to belive that a community like Circle of Eight who are mostly 30+ year old D&D players, wouldnt do everything in their power to created a game as close to table top as and CRPG has ever come. And IMO thats exactly what they have done. They've done a fine job of modeling the tabletop system. And that's exactly what's bad about it. D&D tabletop is designed to be played with pen, paper, dice, and a DM. With a computer, you lose the DM, and gain the added complexity a computer can handle, but if you migrate the system rule-for-rule, you don't gain anything. The Infinity Engine's combat system was not a faithful translation of D&D. A lot of hardcore fans bashed Baldur's Gate at time of release for it. It still became tremendously popular. You know why? Because it didn't need it. Having a stripped down combat system reduced the focus on combat, which, given the flawed nature of D&D's combat from the beginning, is a good thing. Effectively, ToEE is a game focused on trying to be good at all the things D&D is bad at. It's a good effort, but that's still not a formula for success. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: Could you please name a couple games that surpass TOEE's TBS Combat system? You seem to be aware of better ones, I would like to try them. X-Com UFO Defense, Mount and Blade, some of the old Wizardry games. The former 2 aren't RPGs, but honestly, the plot in ToEE is too thin to redeem it as one. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: 1 - your battle sequence is pretty much the same as any infinity game (diable,buff,tank,kill - repeat). I dont understand your point. There are encounters in which the sequence did not apply. Those encounters were made more numerous with the myriad AI mods. On top of that, BG1/2 and ESPECIALLY Planescape Torment were not as combat-centric as ToEE. ToEE has to ride on it's combat because in terms of world interaction, dialogue, and plot, it fails. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: 2 - games of this nature can almost always be exploited to created a super character. This is a role playing game, it is your responsibility to play that ROLE. If you choose to make a uber-godly character, then thats your choice. I dont see this as a flaw in the game, I see it as quite the boon. TOEE is very much a sandbox game. Its a simple dungeon crawl. Make a party and see how long you can survive. Rinse/Repeat. So much fun. If they wanted to make a good dungeon crawl, then Undermountain or Tomb of Horrors would have been better adventures to make (hell, I would have liked ToEE MUCH more if it had converted Tomb of Horrosr, and used appropriate variant sources like Tome of Battle to deal with the class imbalance). As it stands, the adventure-as-written for ToEE was meant to be somewhat story-driven, which makes it fail without a DM or well-developed characters to drive the plot. The problem with D&D3E from day 1 is that there's no exploiting to do. A cleric or druid need to make no correct decisions to actually have a strong character--all the tools are spoon-fed to them. You could take toughness and skill focus in a ton of random skills you don't have, and your cleric would still be better than your Fighter past level 7. It's one thing for you to exploit a flaw of the system to have an absurdly good character. It's entirely another if your character just *is* better when you hit a certain level. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: 3 - Again, perhaps you need to think outside the box a little bit and try some different strategies. Honestly its not the games fault that you choose to approch every battle in the same manner. It is the game's fault if it's possible for me to do so. A combat-centric game should have the expectation that some effort was spent on designing challenging encounters. Translating the PHB word-for-word into game mechanics is not hard development work, it's a one man job. Beyond that, there's nothing outstanding that ToEE seems to do with the combat mechanics. Add to that the fact that the adventure is also effectively straight-ripped from the sourcebooks, I don't see how you can't have the expectation for them to design interesting combat encounters. It's all that's left for them to do. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: Let me just say a thing or two of why I think this game is "close to table top as they come" If your a D&D player, you would probably recognize these terms, if not, Im not gonna explain them. - Ready vs Withdrawl, Ready vs Spell, Spell Counter, Ready Vs Approch, Feint, Withdrawl, Run, Flee, Coup De Grace, Trip Attack, Charge Attack, Fight Defensively, Cast Defensivley, Deal Non-Lethal Damage Five foot step, Full attack, Thrown Weapons, Spell components (certain spells require you to have "ingredients" in your inventory to cast), crafting, and so much more. Bolded the ones that actually ever get used. Of those, charge is only extensively used with feats/class features in tabletop that make it good (none of which are in ToEE). Defensive casting, full attack, 5-foot-steps, coup de grace, and spell components only create the illusion of choice (e.g. any situation where they're relevant, the choice to use them is obvious). At a table, they create roleplaying variation. At a computer, they're just meaningless busywork. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: I could go on and on. These are all really intresting options and they make combat so tactical and diverse. I really dont understand your complaints. They're effectively null choices, like the Queen's abilities in SC2. Either they're worthless, and having them doesn't actually give you any choice. Or there's absolutely zero reason not to use them in the situations they're relevant. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: I would also like to point out that i am infact a very big fan of the Black Isle games (RIP), but having recenty played through BG1&2 in some epic run through, I just really realised how lacking the combat was. Again, combat is not the focus of BG1&2. They bring enough to the table that a slightly gimped combat system doesn't hurt them. On October 03 2009 08:43 nofAcedAgent wrote: EDIT: Here is a fantastic write-up of the game: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=23648 Please read this if you want to learn more about the game Welcome to the Codex, one of the biggest gaming-related troll pits on the internet. The posting quality in TL Closed Threads is higher than the acceptable post quality there. There are a few good contributors there, but they get absolutely zero respect from anyone. Personally, I find any evaluation from them highly suspect. | ||
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nofAcedAgent
United States952 Posts
Eh you really seem to be mad at the game for your choice in playstyle.. You say only a select of those tactical combat options are actually usefull, but the ones you didnt bold i used all the time. You also seem to be upset that TOEE is on the computer and not actual table top. I dont really get your point. Ready vs Approch - Used very often. Put your lead fighters into this to get a free attack of opportunity when the enemy approches. Very vaulable. Withdrawl - You can escape close range combat without the enemy getting an attack of opportunity. Fighter get too close to your mage? Now you know you can flee without getting one-hit-gibbed. Trip Attack - Trip the enemy to the ground so you are able to perform a Coup De Grace, and hoppefully gib them. Fight Defensivley - Gain Defense bonus while lossing chance to hit. Need your tank to survive longer while the ranged attack finish off the enemy? I could go on for almost all the tactical options. Sure some are more usefull then others. The combat engine is so well done, makes for such dynamic intense battles. Its all up to the players creativity. Its really unfortunate you seem to be locked into a certain playstyle, because your really missing the brilliance of TOEE. And I have to disagree, it is not the games fault that you abuse the system. It was designed that way purposfully. Really, most your complaints are your own making I feel. Pretty simmilar to your thoughts on Fallout3. Your comment about the SC2 Queen is kinda silly, lets not turn this into theorycraft ok? Were talking about games that exist. Anyway, the options are not 'null' in the least. I guess we can agree to disagree man  As to your game sugestions they are quite good but I was thinking more along the lines of D&D esque RPG games. Not Sqaud Based Shooters or whatever you would classify M&B as lol. Wizardry, while great absolutley pales in comparison to TOEE combat - seriously. As far as RPGCodex goes, Im not fammilar with the site, and I certainly wasnt aware they were the scum of the internet as you depict. I found a very detailed article about the tactical combat options and I linked it for people who would like to learn more about TOEE. It documents combat well. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
On October 03 2009 10:46 TheYango wrote: Again, combat is not the focus of BG1&2. They bring enough to the table that a slightly gimped combat system doesn't hurt them. Well that is odd, i thought bg2 had a ton of combat, especially with the expansion, and with the ascension(?) mod it became a diablo. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Im still not clear wether you spent time playing the co8.org mod. You didnt really clearly say, so its hard to comment on alot of what you say. I have played with co8. + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Ready vs Approch - Used very often. Put your lead fighters into this to get a free attack of opportunity when the enemy approches. Very vaulable. Not really. Any round where you'd ready vs. approach you may as well strike first. Not only do you avoid the possibility of them not approaching you, you also force them to use the withdraw action if they want to ignore your fighter. If they're too far to reach (e.g. you can't move + attack in the same round), you're better off spending the round getting off another close- or touch-range buff spell. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Withdrawl - You can escape close range combat without the enemy getting an attack of opportunity. Fighter get too close to your mage? Now you know you can flee without getting one-hit-gibbed. Tumble skill supercedes this, and your wizard can fit cross-class ranks into it. Static DC means that your Wizard will succeed often enough that you shouldn't need to withdraw, once you pass the early levels. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Trip Attack - Trip the enemy to the ground so you are able to perform a Coup De Grace, and hoppefully gib them. Wrong. Trip does not allow Coup de Grace. Coup de Grace only works against enemies that are incapable of responding (unconscious, dying, asleep, etc.)--if it works vs. tripped enemies, it's a bug. Tripping is like charging--only good with relevant feats. The problem is that any enemy that would be worth tripping has much higher strength or dexterity than your fighters, meaning that they won't succeed reliably, because the feats to boost their tripping aren't there. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Fight Defensivley - Gain Defense bonus while lossing chance to hit. Need your tank to survive longer while the ranged attack finish off the enemy? Cool feature--rarely relevant. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: The combat engine is so well done, makes for such dynamic intense battles. I will concede that the engine is good. It's a shame that it couldn't be put to a better rule system. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Its all up to the players creativity. Its really unfortunate you seem to be locked into a certain playstyle, because your really missing the brilliance of TOEE. What brilliance? Even if it was a good game, it wouldn't be "brilliant". There's no brilliance in straight-ripping the 3.5E PHB and a 2E adventure. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: And I have to disagree, it is not the games fault that you abuse the system. It was designed that way purposfully. I highly doubt that taking a straight copy of someone else's ruleset is intentional design more than laziness. And honestly, stop acting like I'm powergaming. I'm not. The whole problem with D&D3.5 is that it takes zero powergaming for spellcasters to be better than fighters. I wouldn't care if you had to take the perfect selection of feats in order for your cleric to win out against your fighter, but you don't. By level 10, spells just are better than feats, regardless of how you're picking them. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Really, most your complaints are your own making I feel. Pretty simmilar to your thoughts on Fallout3. Yes, they are in the same vein: someone playing the game through for the first time should be able to have a complete, natural experience. While these games have plenty of "bonus" content, the first-time-through experience, which is arguably just as important as subsequent playthroughs, is not a fulfilling a experience. A player who plays Fallout 3 for the first time and is just finishing quests as they come will find the game coming to an abrupt end. A player playing ToEE might find the combat options interesting, but will find that the game also comes to an end before any encounters truly necessitate them (particularly if he/she has had any experience with previous isometric RPGs). Will the second playthrough, where the Fallout player gets to explore the world, and the ToEE player gets to make kooky characters centered around different fighting styles be interesting? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that the first playthrough (which makes up the majority of the playtime of the playerbase as a whole) was dry and uninspiring. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: Anyway, the options are not 'null' in the least. They're null in the sense that they're not needed. The non-obvious ones never find situations where they're required of you. On October 03 2009 12:36 nofAcedAgent wrote: As to your game sugestions they are quite good but I was thinking more along the lines of D&D esque RPG games. Not Sqaud Based Shooters or whatever you would classify M&B as lol. Wizardry, while great absolutley pales in comparison to TOEE combat - seriously. The problem is that D&D has become sort of the industry standard for fantasy RPG systems, and it's just a bad system. Class balance is not maintained (fighters are, in a loose sense superfluous after level 7, and reach actual uselessness by about level 10), CR and wealth-by-level create an artificial, uninteresting way of evaluating encounter difficulty, and the amount of useless things in the system with regards to combat just bog things down. In a well-developed roleplaying experience it's fine, but in a game that's as combat-centric as ToEE, I find it inadequate. On October 03 2009 13:08 Cloud wrote: Well that is odd, i thought bg2 had a ton of combat, especially with the expansion, and with the ascension(?) mod it became a diablo. It did, but my point was that there was enough substance in the non-combat stuff that a sub-par combat system was acceptable. It had a decent story, interesting mechanics like fortress management, and well-hashed out NPCs. ToEE has none of that backing up the combat system. | ||
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