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I see there are two other threads about the Spades thread in Website Feedback, however they are concerning moderation which is not quite what I want to touch on, so I feel a new thread is justified.
A mod should do an IP check of the OP and expose his main account. This should be done because of the manner in which the OP went about accusing Spades. He exaggerated and misinterpreted NUMEROUS times, in ways that can only lead us to conclude he did so deliberately. For example, claiming that moving an SCV to a watchtower w/o looking at the watchtower is evidence of a hack is simply dishonest, and intended to capitalize on the hasty-conclusion hive mind that was sure to follow his post. In other words the OP created the illusion of painstaking examination when in fact his evidence was HEAVILY circumstantial.
It's only fair that his identity should be outed if he's going to pretend to be the judge and jury. I know TL doesn't have a policy against outing smurf accounts on principle, since if you're temp banned it tells you that if you make a new account you will be exposed.
Can a mod please explain the reasoning for why this can't be done?
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United States8476 Posts
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
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Oh okay, good stuff. Thank you.
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It's not very hard to use a proxy, an computer from the outside or anything like that. I imagine that if there wasn't anything controversial posted the topic would be closed immediately. But the accusation made some sense, and even if there was some exaggeration I guess that anyone can raise concerns about pro players cheating (with a ban on the line if they are not founded I imagine).
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On June 05 2012 11:43 NrGmonk wrote:
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
I think its Spades himself.
He just wants to become infamous over this ordeal.
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I understand from RaGe's post in a blog that the mods have in fact found IP matches with other accounts and are debating whether to reveal this information. I would once again encourage them to do so, for several reasons.
For one, as I stated before, the OP exaggerated many of his points in order to create the impression that there was more certainty than in fact existed. Indeed he claimed it to be a fact that Spades hacks. He did not give Spades due course and exercise caution with his accusations, which is something that's critically important considering the potential for career assassination resulting from false accusations. Just look at page one of the thread, numerous people immediately assume the OP is right without having watched the replays yet. No one should be allowed to accuse in this way with impunity, on the principle that if their accusations are false they should be held accountable.
In addition, by not revealing the identity of the OP it would set a dangerous precedent for more people to make anonymous accusations in the future. This may lead future anonymous accusers to exaggerate and embellish in ways that the ensuing mob latches onto and accepts without questioning. This is connected to my first point, because if the accusers know that their statements will be tied to their identity, they will excercise more caution in the claims they make.
I hope the mods take these thoughts into consideration in their debate.
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Calgary25981 Posts
ok were not dumb and we dont know who he is. thread closed.
Edit: Okay I lied. The registered IP does hit existing members. Thread reopened.
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You lied? Nice.
I hope you all don't conviently decide to keep OP's identity secret, especially after 160+ pages that ruined player's career without even getting to the point of having undeniable proof.
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I guess I should repost my thoughts on the matter as you recommended, Doodsmack.
I hope the mods take a nice long time to discuss the possible unveiling of the poster. As they probably know, there are a number of possible consequences:
a) If the allegations are deemed false, his reputation is marred just because he reported a pro.
b) Concerned parties can enact retribution in various unpleasant ways.
c) If either of the previous is the case, we can forget about anyone posting anonymous tips again, which also means more maphackers unreported.
d) If the previous points can be disregarded, there's still the question that they alone can decide regarding the particular details of the relationship between him and Spades.
e) Lastly, we damage the message that objective arguments trump authority of the speaker.
P.S. (b) also includes litigation on slander. Yet, TL's choice to reveal the identity of the OP does not change whether that litigation will take place, only its process. A judge can hypothetically order TL to reveal the information.
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On June 06 2012 00:59 Doodsmack wrote:
I understand from RaGe's post in a blog that the mods have in fact found IP matches with other accounts and are debating whether to reveal this information. I would once again encourage them to do so, for several reasons.
For one, as I stated before, the OP exaggerated many of his points in order to create the impression that there was more certainty than in fact existed. Indeed he claimed it to be a fact that Spades hacks. He did not give Spades due course and exercise caution with his accusations, which is something that's critically important considering the potential for career assassination resulting from false accusations. Just look at page one of the thread, numerous people immediately assume the OP is right without having watched the replays yet. No one should be allowed to accuse in this way with impunity, on the principle that if their accusations are false they should be held accountable.
In addition, by not revealing the identity of the OP it would set a dangerous precedent for more people to make anonymous accusations in the future. This may lead future anonymous accusers to exaggerate and embellish in ways that the ensuing mob latches onto and accepts without questioning. This is connected to my first point, because if the accusers know that their statements will be tied to their identity, they will excercise more caution in the claims they make.
I hope the mods take these thoughts into consideration in their debate.
Or they can post from their friend's house/pc bang/proxy
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Why not prove, with 100% certainty, that drolets information is completely wrong before going for your witch hunt on a guy that wants to stay anonymous? Only people that should be made aware of the identity is spades and the team liquid staff. If spades is innocent then he can go and slander drolets reputation all he wants. You nor I should have any say in the matter. The fact that this thread still exists means that team liquid is actually considering it, and that would be bad for anyone and everyone who wants to out cheaters and stay anonymous from the mob of people that want to discredit and/or defame said posters.
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-Anonymous accusations or rather anonymous tips are important when it comes to matters like this. Assuming this would be about a top pro and I had information about him hacking I wouldn't want his angry fanboys to stay in front of my door the next day.
While I completely disagree with how the OP put his stuff, there should be a possibility to remain anonymous while also "exposing" a hacker. If this means sending the entire analysis to some 3rd party who will take care of it or being allowed to put your own analysis up for discussion under a smurf is a different subject.
-Easiest way to protect both people who find out stuff like this and players reputation is to keep said information to a small circle and let those people decide what is worthy of a "real" thread and what isn't. Any post similar to the OP in the spades case can ruin a reputation big time, this should not be debated in public. (Not to mention that unless someone sees the thread and is like "I got replays to contribute" basically the entire discussion there is pointless because only very few people have actually a clue about this stuff and can contribute to analyzing it. =P)
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I believe that disclosing the exact identity is a huge risk, and not necessary to the point.
I do however believe that a statement on whether or not the OP is an unbiased 3rd party would be necessary.
unfortunately, inaction will most likely be interpreted as evidence in some way or another by the mob.
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Really I'm just playing around with ideas here that others could perhaps elaborate on (or indeed ditch if it sounds like crap). I was thinking that perhaps to prevent peoples careers being negatively affected (semi-pro/pro) that there should be a sort of independent (as much as one can define it) council of pro players, casters or other people in the scene.
The function of which would be investigating hacking allegations against top players rather than allowing mob-rule to define someone as guilty or not guilty. In the end after watching replays, consultation and so on they could vote and release a statement on their findings. Whether guilty, not guilty, inconclusive or other. Obviously this would be quite a work load, and I would only suggest that such a council would deal with serious, well thought out and "evidence" supported allegations (such as the case against spades) and again it would only be for dealing with semi-pro/pro players.
Obviously such a system would not be perfect and it would have its flaws but I think it would be a positive step towards a proper self-regulation of the community rather than the mob-rule and career ending disgrace that we have witnessed in this particular instance. If SC2 is going to be a proper sport then it must have some form of organised independent regulation that has credibility and can speak in such cases.
A possible example would be a 5 person council, one team leader, two pro players, one caster, one community figure. It would be good to have as wide a scope as possible, i.e. these should be people associated with different teams and different sections of the community as much as is possible. Maybe the lineup could be changed each year?
Again perhaps this is not an idea people will agree with but just throwing it out there to promote some constructive discussion towards the future of our community.
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On June 06 2012 01:21 whiterabbit wrote:
You lied? Nice.
I hope you all don't conviently decide to keep OP's identity secret, especially after 160+ pages that ruined player's career without even getting to the point of having undeniable proof.
I think you're taking the phrase " I lied " a bit too literally, It's a common thing to say for people I know when they actually mean " my mistake " or " I was wrong ".
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On June 06 2012 01:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Really I'm just playing around with ideas here that others could perhaps elaborate on (or indeed ditch if it sounds like crap). I was thinking that perhaps
to prevent peoples careers being negatively affected (semi-pro/pro) that there should be a sort of independent (as much as one can define it) council of pro players, casters or other people in the scene. + Show Spoiler +
The function of which would be investigating hacking allegations against top players rather than allowing mob-rule to define someone as guilty or not guilty. In the end after watching replays, consultation and so on they could vote and release a statement on their findings. Whether guilty, not guilty, inconclusive or other. Obviously this would be quite a work load, and I would only suggest that such a council would deal with serious, well thought out and "evidence" supported allegations (such as the case against spades) and again it would only be for dealing with semi-pro/pro players.
Obviously such a system would not be perfect and it would have its flaws but I think it would be a positive step towards a proper self-regulation of the community rather than the mob-rule and career ending disgrace that we have witnessed in this particular instance. If SC2 is going to be a proper sport then it must have some form of organised independent regulation that has credibility and can speak in such cases.
A possible example would be a 5 person council, one team leader, two pro players, one caster, one community figure. It would be good to have as wide a scope as possible, i.e. these should be people associated with different teams and different sections of the community as much as is possible. Maybe the lineup could be changed each year?
Again perhaps this is not an idea people will agree with but just throwing it out there to promote some constructive discussion towards the future of our community.
You're thinking in the right direction, but setting it up is the tricky part. The most famous cheating/misconduct case was judged by KESPA that pretty much has the structure (in less detailed form) that you described.
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I found it kind of depressing that the mob so easily jumped on Spades. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not he's actually maphacking (I'm not skilled enough to pretend to know) along with almost everybody posting in that thread. Anybody under GM will read the thread, and then see what they want to see, especially potentially interpreting a better player's game sense for map hacking. Which is why I think that only the pros comments matter.
In light of that information, I agree with exposing his identity. It's silly for accusations like this to remain unknown, especially when other pros as far as I understand have agreed that a lot of the OP's accusations are very very flimsy. (Not that the accusation of maphacking is, just that his comments are).
For better or worse, Spades' career is pretty over most likely. Only he will ever actually know whether or not he's getting what he deserves (And nobody will ever know otherwise unless he admits it or somebody hacks his desktop and looks at his files O.o), but nobody will know who did it to him, which is a shame if that person is somebody notable.
Edit: On reading above posts, I think it would be really interesting if any accusations like this could be run through a council/at least moderators. Moderators would review it and look to see if there is any credibility to their argument. Or ideally a "council" like somebody above suggested. If there is nothing wrong with it, and the OP sending the information has no ulterior motive for exposing X player, then a moderator can post it. That way, we can be sure that there is at least some credibility to his statement as ascertained by a moderator/pro players, the identity of the person accusing is protected (credible anonymous tip), and we know that he is an unbiased third party.
If the person accusing fails at any of these, then just don't post. Because even a bad post with terrible information can get a mob going if it is worded properly.
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On June 06 2012 01:42 Alryk wrote:
I found it kind of depressing that the mob so easily jumped on Spades. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not he's actually maphacking (I'm not skilled enough to pretend to know) along with almost everybody posting in that thread. Anybody under GM will read the thread, and then see what they want to see, especially potentially interpreting a better player's game sense for map hacking. Which is why I think that only the pros comments matter.
In light of that information, I agree with exposing his identity. It's silly for accusations like this to remain unknown, especially when other pros as far as I understand have agreed that a lot of the OP's accusations are very very flimsy. (Not that the accusation of maphacking is, just that his comments are).
For better or worse, Spades' career is pretty over most likely. Only he will ever actually know whether or not he's getting what he deserves (And nobody will ever know otherwise unless he admits it or somebody hacks his desktop and looks at his files O.o), but nobody will know who did it to him, which is a shame if that person is somebody notable.
His career isn't over... It hasn't even started. He can easily gain any lost reputation by winning or placing well in a lan.
Also, there is only one pro so far that is defending spades out of seven or so.
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So, who was it? I think this information should be given to the community.
Pros:
Keep people honest, anonymous accusations can be made against anyone.
Acknowledges the whistleblower, shows the community that it is acceptable to rat out cheaters.
Cons:
The OP could be wrong and that will affect them poorly (but they should accept the consequences).
It could scare off future whistleblowers if the community doesn't feel the evidence is sufficient.
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United States4991 Posts
I think it's better to keep the identity anonymous. While I'm personally curious who it is, there are always going to be haters who refuse to believe Spades is guilty, and will harass the whistleblower. Subjecting them to harassment because people are immature seems to serve no purpose other than to allow people who support Spades to harass them.
The validity of the accusations doesn't rest at all upon the identity of the original accuser, as a large number of well-respect pros have taken up the accusations since then.
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EPT
