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I see there are two other threads about the Spades thread in Website Feedback, however they are concerning moderation which is not quite what I want to touch on, so I feel a new thread is justified.
A mod should do an IP check of the OP and expose his main account. This should be done because of the manner in which the OP went about accusing Spades. He exaggerated and misinterpreted NUMEROUS times, in ways that can only lead us to conclude he did so deliberately. For example, claiming that moving an SCV to a watchtower w/o looking at the watchtower is evidence of a hack is simply dishonest, and intended to capitalize on the hasty-conclusion hive mind that was sure to follow his post. In other words the OP created the illusion of painstaking examination when in fact his evidence was HEAVILY circumstantial.
It's only fair that his identity should be outed if he's going to pretend to be the judge and jury. I know TL doesn't have a policy against outing smurf accounts on principle, since if you're temp banned it tells you that if you make a new account you will be exposed.
Can a mod please explain the reasoning for why this can't be done?
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United States8476 Posts
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
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Oh okay, good stuff. Thank you.
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It's not very hard to use a proxy, an computer from the outside or anything like that. I imagine that if there wasn't anything controversial posted the topic would be closed immediately. But the accusation made some sense, and even if there was some exaggeration I guess that anyone can raise concerns about pro players cheating (with a ban on the line if they are not founded I imagine).
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On June 05 2012 11:43 NrGmonk wrote:
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
I think its Spades himself.
He just wants to become infamous over this ordeal.
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I understand from RaGe's post in a blog that the mods have in fact found IP matches with other accounts and are debating whether to reveal this information. I would once again encourage them to do so, for several reasons.
For one, as I stated before, the OP exaggerated many of his points in order to create the impression that there was more certainty than in fact existed. Indeed he claimed it to be a fact that Spades hacks. He did not give Spades due course and exercise caution with his accusations, which is something that's critically important considering the potential for career assassination resulting from false accusations. Just look at page one of the thread, numerous people immediately assume the OP is right without having watched the replays yet. No one should be allowed to accuse in this way with impunity, on the principle that if their accusations are false they should be held accountable.
In addition, by not revealing the identity of the OP it would set a dangerous precedent for more people to make anonymous accusations in the future. This may lead future anonymous accusers to exaggerate and embellish in ways that the ensuing mob latches onto and accepts without questioning. This is connected to my first point, because if the accusers know that their statements will be tied to their identity, they will excercise more caution in the claims they make.
I hope the mods take these thoughts into consideration in their debate.
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Calgary25981 Posts
ok were not dumb and we dont know who he is. thread closed.
Edit: Okay I lied. The registered IP does hit existing members. Thread reopened.
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You lied? Nice.
I hope you all don't conviently decide to keep OP's identity secret, especially after 160+ pages that ruined player's career without even getting to the point of having undeniable proof.
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I guess I should repost my thoughts on the matter as you recommended, Doodsmack.
I hope the mods take a nice long time to discuss the possible unveiling of the poster. As they probably know, there are a number of possible consequences:
a) If the allegations are deemed false, his reputation is marred just because he reported a pro.
b) Concerned parties can enact retribution in various unpleasant ways.
c) If either of the previous is the case, we can forget about anyone posting anonymous tips again, which also means more maphackers unreported.
d) If the previous points can be disregarded, there's still the question that they alone can decide regarding the particular details of the relationship between him and Spades.
e) Lastly, we damage the message that objective arguments trump authority of the speaker.
P.S. (b) also includes litigation on slander. Yet, TL's choice to reveal the identity of the OP does not change whether that litigation will take place, only its process. A judge can hypothetically order TL to reveal the information.
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On June 06 2012 00:59 Doodsmack wrote:
I understand from RaGe's post in a blog that the mods have in fact found IP matches with other accounts and are debating whether to reveal this information. I would once again encourage them to do so, for several reasons.
For one, as I stated before, the OP exaggerated many of his points in order to create the impression that there was more certainty than in fact existed. Indeed he claimed it to be a fact that Spades hacks. He did not give Spades due course and exercise caution with his accusations, which is something that's critically important considering the potential for career assassination resulting from false accusations. Just look at page one of the thread, numerous people immediately assume the OP is right without having watched the replays yet. No one should be allowed to accuse in this way with impunity, on the principle that if their accusations are false they should be held accountable.
In addition, by not revealing the identity of the OP it would set a dangerous precedent for more people to make anonymous accusations in the future. This may lead future anonymous accusers to exaggerate and embellish in ways that the ensuing mob latches onto and accepts without questioning. This is connected to my first point, because if the accusers know that their statements will be tied to their identity, they will excercise more caution in the claims they make.
I hope the mods take these thoughts into consideration in their debate.
Or they can post from their friend's house/pc bang/proxy
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Why not prove, with 100% certainty, that drolets information is completely wrong before going for your witch hunt on a guy that wants to stay anonymous? Only people that should be made aware of the identity is spades and the team liquid staff. If spades is innocent then he can go and slander drolets reputation all he wants. You nor I should have any say in the matter. The fact that this thread still exists means that team liquid is actually considering it, and that would be bad for anyone and everyone who wants to out cheaters and stay anonymous from the mob of people that want to discredit and/or defame said posters.
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-Anonymous accusations or rather anonymous tips are important when it comes to matters like this. Assuming this would be about a top pro and I had information about him hacking I wouldn't want his angry fanboys to stay in front of my door the next day.
While I completely disagree with how the OP put his stuff, there should be a possibility to remain anonymous while also "exposing" a hacker. If this means sending the entire analysis to some 3rd party who will take care of it or being allowed to put your own analysis up for discussion under a smurf is a different subject.
-Easiest way to protect both people who find out stuff like this and players reputation is to keep said information to a small circle and let those people decide what is worthy of a "real" thread and what isn't. Any post similar to the OP in the spades case can ruin a reputation big time, this should not be debated in public. (Not to mention that unless someone sees the thread and is like "I got replays to contribute" basically the entire discussion there is pointless because only very few people have actually a clue about this stuff and can contribute to analyzing it. =P)
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I believe that disclosing the exact identity is a huge risk, and not necessary to the point.
I do however believe that a statement on whether or not the OP is an unbiased 3rd party would be necessary.
unfortunately, inaction will most likely be interpreted as evidence in some way or another by the mob.
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Really I'm just playing around with ideas here that others could perhaps elaborate on (or indeed ditch if it sounds like crap). I was thinking that perhaps to prevent peoples careers being negatively affected (semi-pro/pro) that there should be a sort of independent (as much as one can define it) council of pro players, casters or other people in the scene.
The function of which would be investigating hacking allegations against top players rather than allowing mob-rule to define someone as guilty or not guilty. In the end after watching replays, consultation and so on they could vote and release a statement on their findings. Whether guilty, not guilty, inconclusive or other. Obviously this would be quite a work load, and I would only suggest that such a council would deal with serious, well thought out and "evidence" supported allegations (such as the case against spades) and again it would only be for dealing with semi-pro/pro players.
Obviously such a system would not be perfect and it would have its flaws but I think it would be a positive step towards a proper self-regulation of the community rather than the mob-rule and career ending disgrace that we have witnessed in this particular instance. If SC2 is going to be a proper sport then it must have some form of organised independent regulation that has credibility and can speak in such cases.
A possible example would be a 5 person council, one team leader, two pro players, one caster, one community figure. It would be good to have as wide a scope as possible, i.e. these should be people associated with different teams and different sections of the community as much as is possible. Maybe the lineup could be changed each year?
Again perhaps this is not an idea people will agree with but just throwing it out there to promote some constructive discussion towards the future of our community.
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On June 06 2012 01:21 whiterabbit wrote:
You lied? Nice.
I hope you all don't conviently decide to keep OP's identity secret, especially after 160+ pages that ruined player's career without even getting to the point of having undeniable proof.
I think you're taking the phrase " I lied " a bit too literally, It's a common thing to say for people I know when they actually mean " my mistake " or " I was wrong ".
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On June 06 2012 01:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Really I'm just playing around with ideas here that others could perhaps elaborate on (or indeed ditch if it sounds like crap). I was thinking that perhaps
to prevent peoples careers being negatively affected (semi-pro/pro) that there should be a sort of independent (as much as one can define it) council of pro players, casters or other people in the scene. + Show Spoiler +
The function of which would be investigating hacking allegations against top players rather than allowing mob-rule to define someone as guilty or not guilty. In the end after watching replays, consultation and so on they could vote and release a statement on their findings. Whether guilty, not guilty, inconclusive or other. Obviously this would be quite a work load, and I would only suggest that such a council would deal with serious, well thought out and "evidence" supported allegations (such as the case against spades) and again it would only be for dealing with semi-pro/pro players.
Obviously such a system would not be perfect and it would have its flaws but I think it would be a positive step towards a proper self-regulation of the community rather than the mob-rule and career ending disgrace that we have witnessed in this particular instance. If SC2 is going to be a proper sport then it must have some form of organised independent regulation that has credibility and can speak in such cases.
A possible example would be a 5 person council, one team leader, two pro players, one caster, one community figure. It would be good to have as wide a scope as possible, i.e. these should be people associated with different teams and different sections of the community as much as is possible. Maybe the lineup could be changed each year?
Again perhaps this is not an idea people will agree with but just throwing it out there to promote some constructive discussion towards the future of our community.
You're thinking in the right direction, but setting it up is the tricky part. The most famous cheating/misconduct case was judged by KESPA that pretty much has the structure (in less detailed form) that you described.
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I found it kind of depressing that the mob so easily jumped on Spades. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not he's actually maphacking (I'm not skilled enough to pretend to know) along with almost everybody posting in that thread. Anybody under GM will read the thread, and then see what they want to see, especially potentially interpreting a better player's game sense for map hacking. Which is why I think that only the pros comments matter.
In light of that information, I agree with exposing his identity. It's silly for accusations like this to remain unknown, especially when other pros as far as I understand have agreed that a lot of the OP's accusations are very very flimsy. (Not that the accusation of maphacking is, just that his comments are).
For better or worse, Spades' career is pretty over most likely. Only he will ever actually know whether or not he's getting what he deserves (And nobody will ever know otherwise unless he admits it or somebody hacks his desktop and looks at his files O.o), but nobody will know who did it to him, which is a shame if that person is somebody notable.
Edit: On reading above posts, I think it would be really interesting if any accusations like this could be run through a council/at least moderators. Moderators would review it and look to see if there is any credibility to their argument. Or ideally a "council" like somebody above suggested. If there is nothing wrong with it, and the OP sending the information has no ulterior motive for exposing X player, then a moderator can post it. That way, we can be sure that there is at least some credibility to his statement as ascertained by a moderator/pro players, the identity of the person accusing is protected (credible anonymous tip), and we know that he is an unbiased third party.
If the person accusing fails at any of these, then just don't post. Because even a bad post with terrible information can get a mob going if it is worded properly.
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On June 06 2012 01:42 Alryk wrote:
I found it kind of depressing that the mob so easily jumped on Spades. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not he's actually maphacking (I'm not skilled enough to pretend to know) along with almost everybody posting in that thread. Anybody under GM will read the thread, and then see what they want to see, especially potentially interpreting a better player's game sense for map hacking. Which is why I think that only the pros comments matter.
In light of that information, I agree with exposing his identity. It's silly for accusations like this to remain unknown, especially when other pros as far as I understand have agreed that a lot of the OP's accusations are very very flimsy. (Not that the accusation of maphacking is, just that his comments are).
For better or worse, Spades' career is pretty over most likely. Only he will ever actually know whether or not he's getting what he deserves (And nobody will ever know otherwise unless he admits it or somebody hacks his desktop and looks at his files O.o), but nobody will know who did it to him, which is a shame if that person is somebody notable.
His career isn't over... It hasn't even started. He can easily gain any lost reputation by winning or placing well in a lan.
Also, there is only one pro so far that is defending spades out of seven or so.
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So, who was it? I think this information should be given to the community.
Pros:
Keep people honest, anonymous accusations can be made against anyone.
Acknowledges the whistleblower, shows the community that it is acceptable to rat out cheaters.
Cons:
The OP could be wrong and that will affect them poorly (but they should accept the consequences).
It could scare off future whistleblowers if the community doesn't feel the evidence is sufficient.
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United States4991 Posts
I think it's better to keep the identity anonymous. While I'm personally curious who it is, there are always going to be haters who refuse to believe Spades is guilty, and will harass the whistleblower. Subjecting them to harassment because people are immature seems to serve no purpose other than to allow people who support Spades to harass them.
The validity of the accusations doesn't rest at all upon the identity of the original accuser, as a large number of well-respect pros have taken up the accusations since then.
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On June 06 2012 03:43 Insane wrote:
I think it's better to keep the identity anonymous. While I'm personally curious who it is, there are always going to be haters who refuse to believe Spades is guilty, and will harass the whistleblower. Subjecting them to harassment because people are immature seems to serve no purpose other than to allow people who support Spades to harass them.
The validity of the accusations doesn't rest at all upon the identity of the original accuser, as a large number of well-respect pros have taken up the accusations since then.
This is why I would use a smurf when making such claims.
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On June 05 2012 11:43 NrGmonk wrote:
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too.
Ever heard of a proxy server?
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I don't know if this is in the right thread, but i thought this might be the place to say this.
Can't all the spades thread just be closed? It's in no one's interest that they stay open, because they all end up in one big accusation thread with or without arguments. it's so frustrating and embarressing. ):
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TL has the users IP, they are now debating if they should release it, incase anyone still thinks it hasnt been found.
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United States8476 Posts
On June 06 2012 06:24 crocodile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:43 NrGmonk wrote:
Because his IP doesn't match those of any other accounts. If it did, the new account would probably be banned instantly. Trust me, checking the IP was the first thing I did when I saw that thread from an account with 1 post. I bet every other mod did that too. Ever heard of a proxy server?
I don't see what that has to do with what I said. My erroneous statement was because I didn't know that I didn't have full IP viewing privileges. Obviously, there's the consideration that the user was using a proxy server or just a random public computer. However, as stated before, in this scenario, this was probably not the case.
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On June 06 2012 01:52 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 01:42 Alryk wrote:
I found it kind of depressing that the mob so easily jumped on Spades. I don't think it's a matter of whether or not he's actually maphacking (I'm not skilled enough to pretend to know) along with almost everybody posting in that thread. Anybody under GM will read the thread, and then see what they want to see, especially potentially interpreting a better player's game sense for map hacking. Which is why I think that only the pros comments matter.
In light of that information, I agree with exposing his identity. It's silly for accusations like this to remain unknown, especially when other pros as far as I understand have agreed that a lot of the OP's accusations are very very flimsy. (Not that the accusation of maphacking is, just that his comments are).
For better or worse, Spades' career is pretty over most likely. Only he will ever actually know whether or not he's getting what he deserves (And nobody will ever know otherwise unless he admits it or somebody hacks his desktop and looks at his files O.o), but nobody will know who did it to him, which is a shame if that person is somebody notable. His career isn't over... It hasn't even started. He can easily gain any lost reputation by winning or placing well in a lan. Also, there is only one pro so far that is defending spades out of seven or so.
Well as we see, he has to leave his team. Obviously his career isn't over but it's much harder to overcome a rep like this, even if it turns out to somehow be false.
I know, I wasn't saying the pros agree with Spades. I'm just saying that nobody else's opinion should matter. So if everyone on TL was like "Spades is innocent" but we had 10 pros who were pretty suspicious, I think the pros would carry much more weight.
Just keep in mind, no team means much harder to practice. And who else would want to practice with spades when they think he might be maphacking? It invalidates any practice he might want to do with other pro players. Therefore it's much harder for him to actually practice and prepare for games. So while his career isn't over, it's significantly harder to maintain now.
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So come on just tell us who the hell the OP is, or at least tell us from which country his IP comes from ?
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On June 06 2012 08:36 lulutheking wrote:
So come on just tell us who the hell the OP is, or at least tell us from which country his IP comes from ?
Probably in the 192.168/16 block!
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On June 06 2012 03:43 Insane wrote:
I think it's better to keep the identity anonymous. While I'm personally curious who it is, there are always going to be haters who refuse to believe Spades is guilty, and will harass the whistleblower. Subjecting them to harassment because people are immature seems to serve no purpose other than to allow people who support Spades to harass them.
The validity of the accusations doesn't rest at all upon the identity of the original accuser, as a large number of well-respect pros have taken up the accusations since then.
My question to this is.... what about all the people who believed he was guilty before any sufficent evidence was truly presented? Why can some no-name anonymous member sic the brainless mob on Spades and have people harass him (death threats et al that started well before there was even close to enough 'evidence' against him) without any personal ramifications or involvement? You seem to be being incredibly unfair towards the accusee (if we want to continue to use the spades situation you have to revert your way of thinking to having read only the incredibly weak and incomplete OP post and not any of the followup information or evaluations by pros).
I don't like that it's apparently ok to harass to a completely unproven suspect but NOT ok to harass a completely unproven whistleblower. Either this should happen behind closed doors so that neither party is harassed before a conclusion or completely out in the open so that both parties are.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
what about them? in any thread there are going to be people who take everything at face value. the OP was as good as hack accusations get; it included a replay pack and the poster's analysis of the games broken down by minutes. the thread was closed early on because nobody qualified to review them had chimed in yet, and it was reopened only after quantic's illusion deemed the matter as a claim with some legitimacy. since then multiple pros have given their opinions.
i understand how spades may seem like a victim here if you aren't familiar with the history of hackers in this community and haven't reviewed the evidence with an experienced eye. there are currently no publicly known methods to 100% determine a hacker so all we have to go on is the analysis of pros, personal judgments and a player's history. we try our best to prevent unfounded bandwagons but at the same time maphacking is the ultimate crime in competitive rts - it'd be irresponsible if we didn't let it be discussed.
it would make sense to punish the accuser if he was just messing with someone's reputation just for shits and giggles, but i don't understand how his identity is relevant if his claims have held up to public scrutiny (unlike spades's games).
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If you guys are interested in trying to find the identity of 'Drolets' come over to Gheed's blog. There are a number of us working on figuring out the identity of the poster and, I think, we're on the right track.
We'd all love your input.
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Here's the link to Gheed's blog.
And intrigue's cat is sooooo cute.
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On June 06 2012 01:22 Ghanburighan wrote:
I guess I should repost my thoughts on the matter as you recommended, Doodsmack.
I hope the mods take a nice long time to discuss the possible unveiling of the poster. As they probably know, there are a number of possible consequences:
a) If the allegations are deemed false, his reputation is marred just because he reported a pro.
b) Concerned parties can enact retribution in various unpleasant ways.
c) If either of the previous is the case, we can forget about anyone posting anonymous tips again, which also means more maphackers unreported.
d) If the previous points can be disregarded, there's still the question that they alone can decide regarding the particular details of the relationship between him and Spades.
e) Lastly, we damage the message that objective arguments trump authority of the speaker.
P.S. (b) also includes litigation on slander. Yet, TL's choice to reveal the identity of the OP does not change whether that litigation will take place, only its process. A judge can hypothetically order TL to reveal the information.
a) unlike Spades reputation which is marred regardless of whether the allegations are false or not.
b) Not really. They'd have to have a lot more information to go on than just a tl username.
c) People shouldn't make accusations which are so flimsy? The burden has to be on the person accusing, not on the player who is suspected. Anything else is completely unfair. If he had posted it privately, that would be one thing. But he posted circumstantial evidence publicly, with great confidence stating that Spades was 100% a maphacker. Not the actions of a responsible tl user.
d) isn't necessarily relevant and e) is unlikely to be a problem, unless it's someone incredibly high-profile or another pro doing the accusing.
On June 06 2012 01:26 Urasim wrote:
Why not prove, with 100% certainty, that drolets information is completely wrong before going for your witch hunt on a guy that wants to stay anonymous? Only people that should be made aware of the identity is spades and the team liquid staff. If spades is innocent then he can go and slander drolets reputation all he wants. You nor I should have any say in the matter. The fact that this thread still exists means that team liquid is actually considering it, and that would be bad for anyone and everyone who wants to out cheaters and stay anonymous from the mob of people that want to discredit and/or defame said posters.
Because he didn't prove with 100% certainty that his information was correct before posting it himself? And the worry of a witch-hunt on the accuser is mind-boggling, when you consider the amount of hate Spades has endured. Why should just the accuser get to remain annonymous? It's not like Spades was proven guilty before he was "outed" as a hacker.
And you're worried about this guy being discredited or defamed? There's a guy whose name is irrevocably tarnished, all based on 7 replays.
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There's no witch hunt going on over at Gheed's blog. We just want to see if we can find out the truth.
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On June 07 2012 11:16 CursivE wrote:
There's no witch hunt going on over at Gheed's blog. We just want to see if we can find out the truth.
And I for one had some free time. I'm having a good time finding this guy's identity.
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Another thing I would question is whether it's TL's policy to allow people to make new accounts for risky posts in order to avoid potential ban consequences for their main accounts. Also the fact that OP made a lot of bullet points with timestamps doesn't imply solid evidence or a quality post. The real evidence has come from other people and that's why the thread was closed initially. The OP established the precedent that you can make a new account in order to shield yourself from accountability for a hit job.
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On June 07 2012 23:36 Doodsmack wrote:
Another thing I would question is whether it's TL's policy to allow people to make new accounts for risky posts in order to avoid potential ban consequences for their main accounts. Also the fact that OP made a lot of bullet points with timestamps doesn't imply solid evidence or a quality post. The real evidence has come from other people and that's why the thread was closed initially. The OP established the precedent that you can make a new account in order to shield yourself from accountability for a hit job.
The OP didn't even get banned. I'm certain in both past and future if somebody got banned and it was known they had another account, both got banned.
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I'm not sure about other countries, but, in America, there is a legal precedent towards keeping someone's identity anonymous if they wish it to be so. Many of the greatest scandals in our history (such as the Watergate scandal) have been uncovered by informants whose identity was kept secret by the news outlet to whom incriminating evidence was given.
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Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments.
4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it.
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On June 08 2012 15:26 Aurious wrote:Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments. Show nested quote +4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it.
This states clearly that one's ID is form of obfuscation of identity. This isn't Google, you do not insert your real name to use TL. In the end, this issue is bigger and more precarious for a mere argument twisting the meaning of the 10 commandments.
Edit: Perhaps you assume that the poster has an earlier TL account that differs from Drolets and say that it is basis enough to ban Drolets? Because I thought Gheed uncovered that Drolets has been a member for a while, editing Liquipedia but not posting.
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On June 08 2012 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 15:26 Aurious wrote:Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments. 4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it. This states clearly that one's ID is form of obfuscation of identity. This isn't Google, you do not insert your real name to use TL. In the end, this issue is bigger and more precarious for a mere argument twisting the meaning of the 10 commandments. Edit: Perhaps you assume that the poster has an earlier TL account that differs from Drolets and say that it is basis enough to ban Drolets? Because I thought Gheed uncovered that Drolets has been a member for a while, editing Liquipedia but not posting.
Mods have stated that drolets's IP matches other accounts. So yes he had a previous account and thus broke the commandment. Funny how TL would ignore this.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 08 2012 23:59 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 08 2012 15:26 Aurious wrote:Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments. 4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it. This states clearly that one's ID is form of obfuscation of identity. This isn't Google, you do not insert your real name to use TL. In the end, this issue is bigger and more precarious for a mere argument twisting the meaning of the 10 commandments. Edit: Perhaps you assume that the poster has an earlier TL account that differs from Drolets and say that it is basis enough to ban Drolets? Because I thought Gheed uncovered that Drolets has been a member for a while, editing Liquipedia but not posting. Mods have stated that drolets's IP matches other accounts. So yes he had a previous account and thus broke the commandment. Funny how TL would ignore this.
TL has only one hard and fast rule - no martyrs. Everything else I can think of depends on the specific context. In this case, there's an understandable reason to maintain anonymity; whistle blowers often do.
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Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
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United States8476 Posts
This isn't really an official statement at all, but I'll provide some insight on the above issue and then my opinion as a regular TL member. I recently found out there's 2 separate IP checkers on TL, which explains my erroneous statement on the first page. There's a less reliable one that all mods/banlings and admins have. Because mods, and not admins, handle most of the bans, this IP tracker is most often used when you see people banned for having 2 accounts or signing up as a PBU. Drolets did not show up as having another ID with this tracker, which explains why he wasn't banned immediately.
The other IP checker is the one only admins have, which did identify that drolets probably has another or other IDs on TL. Admins probably checked his IP much after this whole Spades thing blew up and his having another ID became a much smaller issue than the actual accusations. I mean, you could ban drolets now, but what would be the point? He's probably never going to post with that account again and it would send mixed signals to people.
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On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
What is the definition of a whistleblower? I checked on wikipedia, but it matched what you said he did. I'm confused.
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We need to know who this is, end of story. You should not be able to make accusations that directly affect the ability of someone to make money without revealing who you are. Whether or not the accusations are true does not change this fact. Overall, I am extremely disappointed by the way TL mods handled this situation. Too much trust was placed in the community. Seriously, the mods should have known better and the thread should have been deleted or closed shortly after it was made. The OP should have contacted Western Wolves with his concerns and evidence. I don't think WW would have pushed it under the rug, because no team wants to be known as having actively shielded or protected a map hacker.
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Hyrule19082 Posts
On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
Going by the commandments, the first of which being "this is our house", it's basically stated that we can do whatever we want, even ignore the other commandments if we feel like it.
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On June 13 2012 02:17 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule. Going by the commandments, the first of which being "this is our house", it's basically stated that we can do whatever we want, even ignore the other commandments if we feel like it.
Constitutional law is fun!
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Hyrule19082 Posts
Poll: TL and Canada are the same thingConfirm (33) 52% Deny (30) 48% 63 total votes Your vote: TL and Canada are the same thing (Vote): Confirm
(Vote): Deny
ding 8k
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I thought it was a privilege to use/browse/post on TL. Not our some kind of rights.
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TL is a sovereign nation, that's at least self-evident...
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On June 13 2012 04:09 tofucake wrote:Poll: TL and Canada are the same thingConfirm (33) 52% Deny (30) 48% 63 total votes Your vote: TL and Canada are the same thing (Vote): Confirm
(Vote): Deny
ding 8k
Lol how did you not see yourself getting trolled with this? hahaha
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On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though?
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On July 22 2012 07:44 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 07:03 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though? Spades admitted to hack in past, and I wish to give him the chance of doubts about his situation against Lucifron. It is true that "a leopard does not change his spot" , but I find it hard to believe that Spades would go so far, again, hacking, once again, ruining his career once for all. But I admit, that there are definitely some behaviours that I would consider suspect by him. But that's not the matter. This guy, Drolets, is basically in a win - win situation. Win, because he overextended certain "suspects" behaviour to prove his point, defiling the overall view of the community, insinuating the doubts through the community. Win, because he basically did it with a false account, that still has one post, and he didn't even expose himself,on his real account, proving further the fact that he wanted just to defile Spades without being accusable in any way. Win, because he is being protected by Teamliquid Staff.
If I was some random GM player and did the post drolets did it still wouldn't really change the outcome except for the witch hunt that would follow from creating the thread, so whoever drolets really is he did dodge a bullet by doing it this way.
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What would be gained from being told who Drolets really is? Peace of mind? Certainly nothing substantial. The damage is done, and especially so long after the fact, there's really nothing anyone can do with that information anymore. I also blame the community far more than Drolets for condemning Spades in this way. Whether Spades hacked or not is really quite irrelevant; hell, anyone in Spades' situation would be at the mercy of the whims of the masses. Take someone like White-Ra. Let's say, hypothetically, that he was accused of hacking in a TL thread, and that for whatever reason, the community believed it. We all know White-Ra is among the nicest and most honorable people in the StarCraft scene... but do you think any of that matters to sponsors when nearly the entire community is calling for his head? Public outcry will damn White-Ra more than anything else. The whistleblower is a catalyst for public condemnation of a player or community figure, but he is by no means the prime reason for potential consequences.
In short, you're treating Drolets as a scapegoat, even though he is a relatively minor character in this whole affair.
Oh, and I would bet a good amount of money that TeamLiquid staff either know the identity of the Drolets account, or have put a hell of a lot of time and resources into figuring it out. There's no need to bring up conspiracies like "TL staff is protecting this guy!" until/unless you have significant proof of such.
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On July 22 2012 07:57 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 07:47 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 07:44 JonIrenicus wrote:On July 22 2012 07:03 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though? Spades admitted to hack in past, and I wish to give him the chance of doubts about his situation against Lucifron. It is true that "a leopard does not change his spot" , but I find it hard to believe that Spades would go so far, again, hacking, once again, ruining his career once for all. But I admit, that there are definitely some behaviours that I would consider suspect by him. But that's not the matter. This guy, Drolets, is basically in a win - win situation. Win, because he overextended certain "suspects" behaviour to prove his point, defiling the overall view of the community, insinuating the doubts through the community. Win, because he basically did it with a false account, that still has one post, and he didn't even expose himself,on his real account, proving further the fact that he wanted just to defile Spades without being accusable in any way. Win, because he is being protected by Teamliquid Staff. If I was some random GM player and did the post drolets did it still wouldn't really change the outcome except for the witch hunt that would follow from creating the thread, so whoever drolets really is he did dodge a bullet by doing it this way. Well , you are not wrong about your point of view. The fact is, that Drolets behaved in a way that is not at all desiderable. If you want to accuse someone, you must be tactful, not aggressive as this guy has proven to be. It's not the fact that he made this topic that makes me perplexed, but the way he wrote it. He wanted deliberately to defile Spades. He didn't say "I founded some strange behaviour on Spades vs Lucifron...". He said I think " Apparently, he is maphacking on Starcraft II too or that is the sensation I had while watching his showmatch versus LucifroN last night... " Who are you to say such a thing? Also, you said that a witchhunt would likely be started for Drolets. I don't understand, it is fair that spades is being "hunted", but not for Drolets? Don't you see the "double standards"?
Isn't this thread exactly a 'witch hunt' for drolets though? Even the title "Outing the Spades OP" sounds to me like the point of the thread is to go after whoever it is that posted this thread, and judging from most of the replies not in a nice way either.
I would like to know who "drolets" actually is, not the actual account, just if he is a (semi)pro player or just your average GM player, but I want to know more about this whole ordeal out of curiosity... I was not part of the BW community so I don't actually know anything about the hacking etc. that happened during BW, but still, I recognize the name (actually having watched Spades' stream quite a lot back in the day when he was still featured) so of course I'm curious as to what is going on and who apparently caught him hacking. I'm sure you know of the reason given when he was banned after all this, I trust TL.net staff on this even if some of the moderation and such I haven't really agreed on.
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EPT
