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On June 08 2012 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 15:26 Aurious wrote:Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments. 4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it. This states clearly that one's ID is form of obfuscation of identity. This isn't Google, you do not insert your real name to use TL. In the end, this issue is bigger and more precarious for a mere argument twisting the meaning of the 10 commandments. Edit: Perhaps you assume that the poster has an earlier TL account that differs from Drolets and say that it is basis enough to ban Drolets? Because I thought Gheed uncovered that Drolets has been a member for a while, editing Liquipedia but not posting.
Mods have stated that drolets's IP matches other accounts. So yes he had a previous account and thus broke the commandment. Funny how TL would ignore this.
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United States5162 Posts
On June 08 2012 23:59 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2012 21:22 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 08 2012 15:26 Aurious wrote:Person in Gheed's blog posted about the top 10 commandments. 4. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID
This means you don't use clones or aliases or any other form of obfuscation of identity (other than the ID you first signed on with). Try any skullduggery with your ID and you get an automatic ban. We can see your IPs in real-time and if we even suspect someone's abusing, we just ban you. So, don't even try it. It's not worth it. This states clearly that one's ID is form of obfuscation of identity. This isn't Google, you do not insert your real name to use TL. In the end, this issue is bigger and more precarious for a mere argument twisting the meaning of the 10 commandments. Edit: Perhaps you assume that the poster has an earlier TL account that differs from Drolets and say that it is basis enough to ban Drolets? Because I thought Gheed uncovered that Drolets has been a member for a while, editing Liquipedia but not posting. Mods have stated that drolets's IP matches other accounts. So yes he had a previous account and thus broke the commandment. Funny how TL would ignore this.
TL has only one hard and fast rule - no martyrs. Everything else I can think of depends on the specific context. In this case, there's an understandable reason to maintain anonymity; whistle blowers often do.
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Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
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United States8477 Posts
This isn't really an official statement at all, but I'll provide some insight on the above issue and then my opinion as a regular TL member. I recently found out there's 2 separate IP checkers on TL, which explains my erroneous statement on the first page. There's a less reliable one that all mods/banlings and admins have. Because mods, and not admins, handle most of the bans, this IP tracker is most often used when you see people banned for having 2 accounts or signing up as a PBU. Drolets did not show up as having another ID with this tracker, which explains why he wasn't banned immediately.
The other IP checker is the one only admins have, which did identify that drolets probably has another or other IDs on TL. Admins probably checked his IP much after this whole Spades thing blew up and his having another ID became a much smaller issue than the actual accusations. I mean, you could ban drolets now, but what would be the point? He's probably never going to post with that account again and it would send mixed signals to people.
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On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
What is the definition of a whistleblower? I checked on wikipedia, but it matched what you said he did. I'm confused.
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We need to know who this is, end of story. You should not be able to make accusations that directly affect the ability of someone to make money without revealing who you are. Whether or not the accusations are true does not change this fact. Overall, I am extremely disappointed by the way TL mods handled this situation. Too much trust was placed in the community. Seriously, the mods should have known better and the thread should have been deleted or closed shortly after it was made. The OP should have contacted Western Wolves with his concerns and evidence. I don't think WW would have pushed it under the rug, because no team wants to be known as having actively shielded or protected a map hacker.
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Hyrule19269 Posts
On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule.
Going by the commandments, the first of which being "this is our house", it's basically stated that we can do whatever we want, even ignore the other commandments if we feel like it.
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On June 13 2012 02:17 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:
Sorry but drolets is not a whistleblower. He went straight to a public forum, stated that it's a fact that Spades hacks, and proceeded to provide a laundry list of exaggerations and misrepresentations. The credible evidence has come from other people, mainly pros.
And the commandments say what they say. There's no asterisk with a footnote that says it depends on the context. A commandment by definition is a hard and fast rule. Going by the commandments, the first of which being "this is our house", it's basically stated that we can do whatever we want, even ignore the other commandments if we feel like it.
Constitutional law is fun!
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Hyrule19269 Posts
Poll: TL and Canada are the same thingConfirm (33) 52% Deny (30) 48% 63 total votes Your vote: TL and Canada are the same thing (Vote): Confirm
(Vote): Deny
ding 8k
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I thought it was a privilege to use/browse/post on TL. Not our some kind of rights.
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TL is a sovereign nation, that's at least self-evident...
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On June 13 2012 04:09 tofucake wrote:Poll: TL and Canada are the same thingConfirm (33) 52% Deny (30) 48% 63 total votes Your vote: TL and Canada are the same thing (Vote): Confirm
(Vote): Deny
ding 8k
Lol how did you not see yourself getting trolled with this? hahaha
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On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though?
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On July 22 2012 07:44 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 07:03 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though? Spades admitted to hack in past, and I wish to give him the chance of doubts about his situation against Lucifron. It is true that "a leopard does not change his spot" , but I find it hard to believe that Spades would go so far, again, hacking, once again, ruining his career once for all. But I admit, that there are definitely some behaviours that I would consider suspect by him. But that's not the matter. This guy, Drolets, is basically in a win - win situation. Win, because he overextended certain "suspects" behaviour to prove his point, defiling the overall view of the community, insinuating the doubts through the community. Win, because he basically did it with a false account, that still has one post, and he didn't even expose himself,on his real account, proving further the fact that he wanted just to defile Spades without being accusable in any way. Win, because he is being protected by Teamliquid Staff.
If I was some random GM player and did the post drolets did it still wouldn't really change the outcome except for the witch hunt that would follow from creating the thread, so whoever drolets really is he did dodge a bullet by doing it this way.
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What would be gained from being told who Drolets really is? Peace of mind? Certainly nothing substantial. The damage is done, and especially so long after the fact, there's really nothing anyone can do with that information anymore. I also blame the community far more than Drolets for condemning Spades in this way. Whether Spades hacked or not is really quite irrelevant; hell, anyone in Spades' situation would be at the mercy of the whims of the masses. Take someone like White-Ra. Let's say, hypothetically, that he was accused of hacking in a TL thread, and that for whatever reason, the community believed it. We all know White-Ra is among the nicest and most honorable people in the StarCraft scene... but do you think any of that matters to sponsors when nearly the entire community is calling for his head? Public outcry will damn White-Ra more than anything else. The whistleblower is a catalyst for public condemnation of a player or community figure, but he is by no means the prime reason for potential consequences.
In short, you're treating Drolets as a scapegoat, even though he is a relatively minor character in this whole affair.
Oh, and I would bet a good amount of money that TeamLiquid staff either know the identity of the Drolets account, or have put a hell of a lot of time and resources into figuring it out. There's no need to bring up conspiracies like "TL staff is protecting this guy!" until/unless you have significant proof of such.
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On July 22 2012 07:57 JonIrenicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2012 07:47 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 07:44 JonIrenicus wrote:On July 22 2012 07:03 Cokefreak wrote:On July 22 2012 06:33 JonIrenicus wrote:
so, will we never be able to know who ruined the career of Spades irreversibly? I could start thinking that even TL has an unspoken agreement with Drolets.
How is it desiderable such a behaviour on a forum , a place where some kind of clearness should be looked upon?
If you are not saying who Drolets is, no matter what Teamliquid says, he is behaving like a partner of Drolets.
Didn't Spades ruin his own career by hacking though? Spades admitted to hack in past, and I wish to give him the chance of doubts about his situation against Lucifron. It is true that "a leopard does not change his spot" , but I find it hard to believe that Spades would go so far, again, hacking, once again, ruining his career once for all. But I admit, that there are definitely some behaviours that I would consider suspect by him. But that's not the matter. This guy, Drolets, is basically in a win - win situation. Win, because he overextended certain "suspects" behaviour to prove his point, defiling the overall view of the community, insinuating the doubts through the community. Win, because he basically did it with a false account, that still has one post, and he didn't even expose himself,on his real account, proving further the fact that he wanted just to defile Spades without being accusable in any way. Win, because he is being protected by Teamliquid Staff. If I was some random GM player and did the post drolets did it still wouldn't really change the outcome except for the witch hunt that would follow from creating the thread, so whoever drolets really is he did dodge a bullet by doing it this way. Well , you are not wrong about your point of view. The fact is, that Drolets behaved in a way that is not at all desiderable. If you want to accuse someone, you must be tactful, not aggressive as this guy has proven to be. It's not the fact that he made this topic that makes me perplexed, but the way he wrote it. He wanted deliberately to defile Spades. He didn't say "I founded some strange behaviour on Spades vs Lucifron...". He said I think " Apparently, he is maphacking on Starcraft II too or that is the sensation I had while watching his showmatch versus LucifroN last night... " Who are you to say such a thing? Also, you said that a witchhunt would likely be started for Drolets. I don't understand, it is fair that spades is being "hunted", but not for Drolets? Don't you see the "double standards"?
Isn't this thread exactly a 'witch hunt' for drolets though? Even the title "Outing the Spades OP" sounds to me like the point of the thread is to go after whoever it is that posted this thread, and judging from most of the replies not in a nice way either.
I would like to know who "drolets" actually is, not the actual account, just if he is a (semi)pro player or just your average GM player, but I want to know more about this whole ordeal out of curiosity... I was not part of the BW community so I don't actually know anything about the hacking etc. that happened during BW, but still, I recognize the name (actually having watched Spades' stream quite a lot back in the day when he was still featured) so of course I'm curious as to what is going on and who apparently caught him hacking. I'm sure you know of the reason given when he was banned after all this, I trust TL.net staff on this even if some of the moderation and such I haven't really agreed on.
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EPT
