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On February 27 2011 03:18 chaoser wrote:Wouldn't mafia, if they were trying to redirect off annul, find it easier to pick gryf to stack on? He lied multiple times, changed from no to the PMs to yes to PMs but with his own list. I mean, that's a much easier case to be made than to do it on jackal right? It doesn't make sense to try to push jackal is a viable lynch candidate for mafia when the big juicy target of gryf is there.
they tried to shift votes onto me
notice how i was also voted at the start of this phase
they definitely want me gone.
I didn't just vote annul, I actually made about a 40 line case on him, which I guess people missed
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On February 27 2011 04:54 chaoser wrote:I don't agree with you LSB, Jackal wasn't an easier choice than Gryf or icemac. I think at that point, no one had voted for Jackal yet, so for mafia to start a completely new bandwagon instead of using one that already had a decent amount of people in it is weird and not what mafia would do. Show nested quote +Priority 1: Automatic night 1 snipes if possible
These players are proven scumhunters
LSB
Foolishness So basically you claimed town, you didn't even say "good players" you said "proven scumhunters" aka keep us around cause we'll help town win please don't lynch us or town is fucked. Not to mention you scream for medic protection, making it seem like you're town. Show nested quote +Basically if we are going to lynch a priority 1 person, the analysis must be far better than a priority 3 person, because if we're wrong, that would be far worse for the town. If we're wrong about you being town and you're actually mafia then it's far worse for the town as well. The whole time you've been building up this image of, don't lynch me town, you're going to get dicked cause you need me via subtle threats to town. BC's guide has stated that we need multiple leaders and not to depend on one guy. By trying to consolidate power in a way that's subtle and a bit underhanded, aren't you just making the town depend on you? That's the worse possible thing for town to do, especially since there's a decent amount of newbies who will sheep. What are you trying to pull? I don't know if you're red but I do know that if barundar flips green, you're the first one on my lynch list.
If you take the bolded parts, gryf is an easier mislynch than jackal, because of newbies sheeping... I actually agree with that.
People don't step up and provide their own analysis. I'm not going to take hours to compose a defense, because I don't feel like I need to. If I had to pick on who was scum between LSB/Barundar, well, who pushed the Annul lynch? LSB. After that, it stalled, and I pushed it again. You know what's even more funny? I tried to engage both of these guys in PM. LSB was non-compliant, and sarcastic. That is what I know of him from his town play, though he is fully capable of misleading people as scum. I'm pretty sure he's town. I'm not going to vote for him, or deter his lynch, though. I won't vote for him because I'm not sure if he's scum, but I won't deter his lynch not only because I'm not sure he isn't, but because I find him to be detrimental to the town as a whole due to focusing too much on mechanics and policy. He also has AtE in relation to him dying in the night, is very arrogant when not justified, and his play is self indulgent. So no, I'm not going to defend him, and I don't care what he flips, but I'm not going to vote him.
His AtE is a "i don't want to die" and could also be read as power-role-coaching
His arrogance is relating to his scumhunting, when his push he would have done regardless
He pushed Annul because he didn't like him, that is null, even if he will lie and say he didn't
His defense he will push of this of "I found Annul to be scum, lynched him, etc." doesn't mean that he couldn't have found annul as scum or lynched him as scum, as he would surely know he was scum here. I saw reference to a statement with which he said "when annul flips red", and I'm pretty sure it was read too far into, but it is interesting to note that he said that.
List 3 of his list "people to kill when blue" is interesting to say the least. Him having that at all makes me ask why is he so concerned with who is a power role? Could it be because he is sending in the kills?
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On February 27 2011 05:03 chaoser wrote:EBWOP (is that how you abbreviate it? lol): Show nested quote +I don't agree with you LSB, Jackal wasn't an easier choice than Gryf or icemac. I think at that point, no one had voted for Jackal yet, so for mafia to start a completely new bandwagon instead of using one that already had a decent amount of people in it is weird and not what mafia would do. The only reason mafia would pick jackal over BOTH grfy and icemac is if both of them were mafia and they had to start a new one. So if barundar does flip red, we should pay attention to those two
icemac has been scumslipping throughout the thread, and Annul voted me with his last bated breath.
I don't see how you can categorize me with him, as a mislynch, when he is likely scum
I'm surely going to vote him.
vote: icemac
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On February 27 2011 10:29 bumatlarge wrote:
Well I read into the whole annul thing, and it doesn't seem to be an organized bus. Especially with that little squirming performance, but then dropping it quickly in a manner I'd expect from him as scum. I didn't find much to point out on who was leading the accusations, but it does give me a nice ladelful of confidence for the town. Deconduo is not scum I feel, and mostly everyone behind it is likely not. GMarshal is a bit tricky because he seems a little too apologetic, but I've only played with him as town, and he would tend to get apologetic when he isn't inquisitive. Maybe he's just more confident?
Anyway, I think annul is probably the better catches for town to get early. I think town would be better served in pressuring the more reserved since that roster seems fairly slim in this game. I like icemac as a lynch target, and others like him that don't quite cut the bill. They are much easier to tell apart then good townie players that keep their mouths in check but speak when it is right, such as ohn.
LSB is silly.
Good analysis
That slot was so.. inactive.. but I'm glad to see you have your head in the right place.
Are you referring to LSB/Barundar as the scum playfighting?
Have you analyzed the d1 wagons yet?
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On February 27 2011 11:45 Kenpachi wrote:
Lynch Targets i feel are Barundar and maybe LSB is Barundar provides good evidence pointing the LSB that hes scum. I dont want to vote Barundar yet cause i thought Annul was townie but ended up being Mafia. We have to pressure the inactives but the one i want to participate is astroorion. he is doing absolutely nothing and should ask for a replacement.
##vote: Astroorion
do something yo.
Lynch targets described as A and B
Votes for C
Found Annul to be town, whoops he ended up as mafia, information instead of analysis
You want someone replaced? How about Beneather who was just nearly modkilled for Diplomacy
Kenpachi just earned himself some scumpoints
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I disagree with you Gmarshal, on whether or not bussing is prevalent here.
How long have you been playing here? Reds usually stick together. Sure, they will jump onto players like Icemac if the voting is heavy, but... teamliquid's voting is rarely heavy.
Post I accidentally posted in the voting thread, where I ended up pushing Annul:
+ Show Spoiler +
OK, listen up guys, this is pitiful the amount of people voting, and the size of the wagons. We only have 5 people on the major wagons, how are we going to properly analyze voting with all of these split votes and cases? We need to consolidate to see who swings late, etc.
Annul - 6
Gofarman
deconduo
Ser Aspi
LSB
astroorion
Icemac - 5
why
kevonism
seraph
ICanFlyLow
OriginalName
People who need to pick one of the above, because their votes are on people with 2 or less:
coagulation
Jackal58
Barundar
Darmousseh
chaoser
Jbright
annul
We've got 7-8 hours, from my recollection. Let's do something about it. People on 1-2 person wagons need to get on either Icemac or Annul.
Vote: Annul
Reasoning: Bandwagonning, and LSB believing he is scum. I also like the wagon more, excluding astroorion who I feel will probably come off of it due to being Annul's scumbuddy.
So I took the time to tally ALL the votes, even if I only listed these. The other wagons, such as my own, only had 2 votes on them. Jackal, for one, shouldn't even count. Regardless of alignment, he should be lynched on policy for his tunneling. That is very unhelpful, and gives an excuse not to scumhunt.
Onto more important issues, notice how close the voting was here? It was like 5-5, and I voted Annul, making it 6-5. Would mafia bus at that point?
Also, look at the Icemac wagon. Many of the players, such as kevconsim, end up actually joining the Annul wagon. Bussing? Perhaps, but I doubt it. With Annul's vote ending up on me, I'm pretty sure they were considering staging a late push on me, but my rekindling of the Annul wagon with this votecount and me accusing him of bandwagonning (WHICH HE LATER ATTACKED ME FOR), came too far late in the day for them to properly stage a counter push.
What of these two wagons, Gmarsh? I personally feel they were both on scum, hence why I'm voting Icemac. As you can see from the above post that is spoilered, I am also fine lynching astroorion, but considering it is being used to deter the Barundar-LSB situation, I'm seeing that Kenpachi might be pushing an easy lynch on him. That makes me want to wait on that.
I was afraid you would strawman that post when I saw you were dissecting it, and to be honest you only made 1 huge mistake from it other than jumping to the wrong conclusions, where you stated I was trying to make associative tells between you and iceman. How can I do that? I only know my own alignment, so if I was to do that like I did with you and annul/iceman and annul it would really only be relative to someone flipping.
Iceman had stated he didn't want to lynch you, annul, myself, or chaoser.. possibly among others... and this post was so scummy Why grilled him on it. I don't know if he answered the case on him, I doubt he did. Why, at the least, wanted to know if he meant 0 or 1 there, as it would change the entire meaning of the post from defense to offense just based upon what he meant. That would be the only association I remember you having with Icemac, but I wasn't saying that, you took my words out of context on accident. If I was pushing you for that, I would have to push myself, as he lumped you and I into the same category. The fact he lumped Annul in there as well, who flipped scum, makes me believe that he actually wasn't for voting any of the people who were generally active who he listed. His post was rather bland and unhelpful, really, even if it was a defense. Saying "i don't want players 1, 2, 3, and 4 lynched" without any evidence as to why you don't is generally useless. I hope that clears up that I was stating you and annul as having associative tells, completely from him towards you. I highlighted that later in the post, about his FoS into a vote of someone else which is a JEEP tell on d1, and you praised my scumhunting of you. Your defense of this was that "I'm wrong", basically. We'll see if I'm wrong.
All in all, I hope you're town.
On February 27 2011 12:29 Jackal58 wrote:
C'mon man. You've been reading every page of this game. What more do you want me to say about Gryf? He's nuts.
Since when is being nuts indicative of alignment?
Aren't town the ones who have to rely on conspiracy theories moreso, as mafia are comforted in the sanity of knowing who is who? So, if anything, I would access that as a town tell.
On February 27 2011 14:19 Coagulation wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 10:57 icemac wrote:On February 27 2011 10:29 bumatlarge wrote:
Well I read into the whole annul thing, and it doesn't seem to be an organized bus. Especially with that little squirming performance, but then dropping it quickly in a manner I'd expect from him as scum. I didn't find much to point out on who was leading the accusations, but it does give me a nice ladelful of confidence for the town. Deconduo is not scum I feel, and mostly everyone behind it is likely not. GMarshal is a bit tricky because he seems a little too apologetic, but I've only played with him as town, and he would tend to get apologetic when he isn't inquisitive. Maybe he's just more confident?
Anyway, I think annul is probably the better catches for town to get early. I think town would be better served in pressuring the more reserved since that roster seems fairly slim in this game. I like icemac as a lynch target, and others like him that don't quite cut the bill. They are much easier to tell apart then good townie players that keep their mouths in check but speak when it is right, such as ohn.
LSB is silly. Oh boy, if ohn is mafia and i'm town, i'm going to quote the hell out of this afterwards. Anybody see the scum slip? "if im town" ..
Yeah, I saw that. I'm voting him.
On February 27 2011 14:44 LunarDestiny wrote:
Back. Catchup time...
So mafia are targeting experienced players like they always do.
People are talking about annul's lynch and there is a bus on annul. First of all, I don't think mafia would sacrifice one of their member to make others more safe. So those who voted annul early or greatly accused him aren't likely to be mafia. Those who jump onto the bandwagon or voted late without giving good reasons should be looked at.
Now THIS is an accurate assessment of bussing on Teamliquid
I completely agree with LunarDestiny. Why else do you think Mr.Wiggles as killed? He was voting Annul. You think they're going to kill someone who wasn't voting annul last night? Maybe, but they surely killed someone who was. It is more likely people tacked their votes on when it was more clear he was going to be the lynch, at like 8-5 or more spread out on the votecount between him and icemac.
@Barundar, you quoted a post explaining Annul's vote on me, then you say if me/icemac aren't red he is bussing? I agree that Icemac is probably red, but Annul was voting me, probably having been instructed to do so.
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Barundar, I was strongly suspecting you as being scum creating a "false" argument with LSB. A tit for tat that would sew enough doubt in everybody's mind to allow a 3rd candidate to get pushed to the lynch. But after your Homeric epic on LSB I feel that I must dismiss that idea. I don't believe Scum would go that far in a charade. Instead of believing you both to be scum I am fairly certain one of you surely is. However I am not 100% sure which.
However I will be after today's lynch. As I've said before this is a numbers game.
I am playing them now. Town still has a large numerical advantage. If LSB flips green you are surely scum and will be dealt with tomorrow.
UNVOTE: Gryffindor
VOTE: LSB
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Vancouver14381 Posts
A lot of interesting arguments are being thrown around, but none of them are particularly compelling enough to throw any one person to the top. For now, I'll go with the possible scum slip and vote for icemac.
##vote: icemac
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On February 27 2011 23:04 JBright wrote:
A lot of interesting arguments are being thrown around, but none of them are particularly compelling enough to throw any one person to the top. For now, I'll go with the possible scum slip and vote for icemac.
##vote: icemac
Then compel us.
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@Barundar, you quoted a post explaining Annul's vote on me, then you say if me/icemac aren't red he is bussing? I agree that Icemac is probably red, but Annul was voting me, probably having been instructed to do so.
The context of my post was LSB being more concerned with who annul flipping red would implicate, than actually questioning annul to see if he was red. Like he makes my post out to be a soft defense of annul, he tried to implicated you and icemac.
On February 27 2011 22:21 Jackal58 wrote:
Barundar, I was strongly suspecting you as being scum creating a "false" argument with LSB. A tit for tat that would sew enough doubt in everybody's mind to allow a 3rd candidate to get pushed to the lynch. But after your Homeric epic on LSB I feel that I must dismiss that idea. I don't believe Scum would go that far in a charade. Instead of believing you both to be scum I am fairly certain one of you surely is. However I am not 100% sure which.
However I will be after today's lynch. As I've said before this is a numbers game.
I am playing them now. Town still has a large numerical advantage. If LSB flips green you are surely scum and will be dealt with tomorrow.
UNVOTE: Gryffindor
VOTE: LSB
Vote me first or vote me second, up to you. Before I raised my finger of suspecion, I was aware he would probably jump on me... I mean if I had just lynched a scum mate for town cred, I too would be pretty pissed off if someone starts putting fingers on me. I’m willing to trade myself for him 1 for 1. And ye putting that shit together and present it in a somewhat readable format took up my Saturday night.
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Epic post dude....I'mma put my vote on him cause there's no fucking way mafia would spend that much time crafting a post like that spanning 3 parts...
Vote: LSB
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if it's btw you and him...I highly doubt you are mafia in my eyes because of that post...jesus...
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I don't think mafia is beyond bussing d1 at all and I'm not prepared to let them succed for it HOWEVER we have to realize that if we get this wrong we are clearly on the wrong track and.
Mafia probably just got some lucky snipes
Probably has one experience player and a load of non-experienced players
If anything I think the bus was instigated by the random vote on annul about mid way through d1
I like risks however so I think the Bus is definitly plaisable
Therefore
##Vote LSB
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Wow nice barundar, I didn't really look into LSB too hard, only that his ideas were presented in his typical and humorous way that makes it seem like a good-natured plan. His plans aren't, as far as I can tell, scummy, but they don't give a lot for town to use, and they don't inhibit mafia at all.
Since Barundar didn't note them as much, LSB's lists are mostly opinionated and way too general to be of any serious help to town. His priority list has broad spectrums of what people are classified as, but he doesn't go into detail about the individuals, he just provides his reads on every single person. It's not bad to do, but it really just puts in your mind that "Oh LSB, he posted a list and stuff, he's useful"
Along with barundar's reasons, I think LSB is red as well. I'll be voting him for now.
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So people are voting for me because I'm too good?
Wow, good job TL Town! Great job!
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On February 27 2011 18:15 Barundar wrote:
1) First of all annul was already under what I believe to be town suspicion before LSB entered the scene. Deconduo had cast his vote on annul at least to pressure him, OriginalName had asked if we should start voting him, GMarshal had been analysing his post and found no contribution, Mr.Wiggles found his playstyle in mafia xxxvi to be indicative of a better player, that wasn’t showing in this game, and why argued that LSB was suspicious.
All of these people argued for annul being suspicious, but they weren’t sure. A number of them tried to scumhunt annul, asking him to explain why he was acting up, trying to gather more evidence. That’s standard pro town play.
LSB wasn't as concerned with if annul was actually just a stupid townie, but more with getting him lynched. He didn't need convincing. I'll go more into detail with that in part 2.
In case you haven't realized, I've already analyzed Annul before, I know how he plays. Secondly, I will say it right now.
I put the most comprehensive analysis on Annul, and without my constant badgering and pushing, annul probably wouldn't have died.
In addition, you completely ignore my town play. My town play = find mafia and kill. There is a reason why I usually don't live to see day 2. Because mafia take me out early.
Your attack is all WIFORM: You are saying "hey what if LSB was scum", well he would play that way. Only problem is it is a complete misrepresentation, my scum play and my town play are completely different, here is a link for how Incog describes it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=190444¤tpage=21#415
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On February 27 2011 19:04 Barundar wrote:
Part 2: LSB’s bad logic and scumslips
Hey guys, lets just use our lynch on Barundar, once he flips red, I'll be cleared.
Ezpz.
In addition, this is the same problem with Barundar's push against Jackal58,
+ Show Spoiler +Oops, 'scumslip' I said Barundar was read
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EWBOP
On February 28 2011 02:04 LSB wrote:
In addition, this is the same problem with Barundar's push against Jackal58,
He just reads too much in individual posts.
I know annul red, ezpz. I know Barundar is red. Lynch him and clear me.
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Good analysis, I agree with most of the points. However, I can't vote LSB ahead of someone who has repeatedly lied, changed his opinions from black to white and posts like this:
On February 27 2011 21:17 gryffindor wrote:
I'm not going to take hours to compose a defense
I would also be vary wary of ANYONE posting like this:
On February 27 2011 22:21 Jackal58 wrote:
Barundar, I was strongly suspecting you as being scum creating a "false" argument with LSB. A tit for tat that would sew enough doubt in everybody's mind to allow a 3rd candidate to get pushed to the lynch. But after your Homeric epic on LSB I feel that I must dismiss that idea. I don't believe Scum would go that far in a charade. Instead of believing you both to be scum I am fairly certain one of you surely is. However I am not 100% sure which.
However I will be after today's lynch. As I've said before this is a numbers game.
I am playing them now. Town still has a large numerical advantage. If LSB flips green you are surely scum and will be dealt with tomorrow.
UNVOTE: Gryffindor
VOTE: LSB
On February 28 2011 00:29 chaoser wrote:
if it's btw you and him...I highly doubt you are mafia in my eyes because of that post...jesus...
Why have the two of you completely discounted the possibility of both of them being town?
@LSB
Thats not much of a defense.
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On February 27 2011 19:08 Barundar wrote:
It’s day 1, there is limited information to pick from. Didn’t stop you from providing “proof” of annul of course. What’s interesting is you didn’t find Jackal’s post scummy at all. Other people did, and Darmousseh found it reasoned enough to vote for it. I still don’t know if Jackal is town or not, but you seem to do.
Only mafia know’s whos innocent and whos guilty. The rest of us only have our arguments and assumptions.
Wtf are you talking about?
Annul has already shot down plans and also has tunneled. What other proof do you need?
There is far more than enough to convict him
Now let me show you a contradiction: if Jackal is such an awesome scumhunter, why don’t you place him as such on your list? You place him as an easy bus, yet I can’t recall jackal actually being lynched except as mafia. On the one hand you argue Jackal is a great scumhunter, on the other you argue he is an easy bus. So which one is it?
Jackal is an easy bus. Case in point, TL mafia XXXVII, Barundar the red scum, is trying to bus Jackal because of his first post apologizing that he will be busy.
Why don't you do that to me? My first post is apologizing that I will be gone. Hmm... because I'm not an easy bus
Show nested quote + Contradictions are scummy because they indicate forced analysis. The thing is, when someone plays as mafia, it’s hard to do analysis because you know that the person who you are doing analysis is town, so you have to make up stuff. And contradictions come when mafia isn’t careful with their fiction writing. I completely agree. See this post.
Good Good!
Barundar's contradiction (again)
On February 27 2011 19:04 Barundar wrote:LSB doesn’t need convincing of Foolishness either: Show nested quote + Everyone trusts certain people. For example, I'm trusting Foolishness because I don't believe that RoL would make him mafia given the state of TL town. This argument has no behaviour support at this point in the game. It’s an arbitrary reason for placing trust in someone, and it lacks that distrust of others that is indicative of town behaviour.
So we can't speculate about role picks?
Oh look what you did yourself
On February 27 2011 01:43 Barundar wrote:
At the same time it’s clear from the night hits that we have at least 1 experienced analysist on the scum team. The only really experienced players in the game are LSB and Foolishness.
In fact, you did the exact same thing. You trusted Foolishness with Absolute no behavior support and accused me of being scum for doing the same
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EPT
