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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
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On February 04 2011 10:45 MindRush wrote:
what about making collosi slightly slower?
they are so fast and they strike from a distance too......
main problem in ZvP is that collosi come out of their deathballs and reign chaos from a safe distance, just to run back once something arrives
Artosis said that he was not completely sold on imbalance yet and I'm not either but this was the best suggestion I saw yet which would make toss need more warp prisms with the speed upgrade.
The deal with collosus death ball is it is easy for zerg to deal with the collosus by it self or the gateway ball by itself. With the collosus as fast as it is if the zerg harasses the collosus can keep up with the main army so it doesn't get left by itself. (also would help with bigger maps) If toss in the future needs to keep warp prisms around to keep their collosus ball mobile that would be the best change if anything IMO. Kinda like reavers in BW.
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i just have some suggestions for the show's format.
assuming you guys don't change the visuals in the show, i think you guys should release the show in audio and video formats. i'd probably download the mp3 and listen to it away from the computer.
if you're going to change the visual format of the show, i think you guys should include replays and such to give examples of the imbalance in action. have games where we can see specific times where the zerg was put too far on the backfoot by the colossi, for example (esp. on steppes and the short maps where this problem is very evident). show also under what circumstances zerg players can solve it/take advantage of mistakes made by the protoss player. this would take a lot more effort than just talking about past experiences and such, but it'll make the show much more interesting imo.
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Yeah I don't like how mobile the colossus is. The reaver in BW was limited by the fact at how immobile they were and how you needed to get a shuttle for them. In Starcraft 2, the colossi is almost as mobile as a shuttle, as devastating as a reaver (maybe even more since army AIs clump together), is about the same cost as a shuttle+reaver combo, and takes faster to build than a shuttle+reaver combo. They're way better than reavers are and are easier to control en masse in my opinion, and the reaver was already a ridiculously amazing unit.
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I really like both IdrA and Artosis, and I'd really like to have a new sc2 related show to watch. But having watched this episode I can't help but feel that the format isn't conducive to analytical discussion. It feels like the decision on whether something is imbalanced or not has been made before the show is recorded, and there is no effort made to see things from a difference perspective.
The other issue that has been mentioned by many is that you have absolutely no Terran input. I would be loath to watch future episodes because everyone knows that after maybe a token zerg unit episode to give the semblance of impartiality, the next episodes are going to be Mules, Marines, Stim, Banshees, Vikings, Ravens, Medivacs and Supply Depots.
That said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I would welcome a high-level discussion on these issues because then the poor players (the ones who mostly complain about imbalance) would have the chance to hear a reasoned argument. But what I don't what to see is 2 people who don't play Terran railing on how OP the race is, and not having their views contested.
edit: i can't tell if this post is breaking the thread rules or not. I'm not suggesting that IdrA and Artosis are biased against Terran, merely that they may not understand the intricacies of the race well enough to speak up for it adequately.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 04 2011 10:36 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:33 SubtleArt wrote:On February 04 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition: BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them. Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead. BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play. BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg. Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance. Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs. Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP) Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/ 1) I think you completely misinterpreted their definitions. 2) Idra's a pro gamer whos been practicng day in day out ever since beta was released, and whos played in all gsls so far. You don't think he's "played a few PvP and PvZ games" to see how to deal with collosus? Really? Did you even watch the video? They spent like 5 minutes talking about how Idra Artosis Ret and Haypro spent days practicing early brood lords as a new style to ZvP Did you read my post? Obviously he's played those games, so why not show us the reps and explain thought processes instead of just saying "it's imbalanced according to my completely made-up definition of imbalanced"
I agree with this. More than anything else, the production of the show needs to be changed. IdrA and Artosis sitting on a couch is kind of weird, and doesn't help them illustrate their points at all. Game footage would go a long way to making it a much better show.
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Overall it was a great half hour of intelligent discussion about the Colossus. Especially for the ZvP match-up.
I did, personally however, disagree with IdrA's assessment of map balance concerning the Colossus. When Artosis asked if slightly bigger maps would help, considering flanking and whatnot, I felt that Idra's response to that was not satisfactory.
Given the cramped nature of the current map pool Colossus does indeed get quite powerful, but by every incremental increase of map size that power is decreased. Here is my personal disagreement: IdrA said that a map would have to be impractically huge to nullify Colossi and Sentries. How is it balanced when you are able to nullify your enemies' army instantly? Besides as the map gets bigger you need more Sentries or later timing of pushes to build up the amount of forcefields necessary to keep yourself from getting flanked. Ergo the Protoss will have less Colossi (because more gas is spent on Sentries) or a much later push. Sniping sentries would become almost the equivalent in sniping HT's in SC1.
If let's say there is a nerf to the Colossus that can really mess up the PvT balance and make bio even harder to deal with. Would there have to be a nerf to bio or a buff to gate units to compensate?
It's my humble opinion, if anyone will have it, that this Colossus problem will disappear with the new map pool for the GSTL (if they become successful), at least for the PvZ match-up. Also I completely agree with Artosis that the PvP match-up is evolving, and it's still way too early to consider Colossi too centric to the match-up.
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On February 04 2011 12:22 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Yeah I don't like how mobile the colossus is. The reaver in BW was limited by the fact at how immobile they were and how you needed to get a shuttle for them. In Starcraft 2, the colossi is almost as mobile as a shuttle, as devastating as a reaver (maybe even more since army AIs clump together), is about the same cost as a shuttle+reaver combo, and takes faster to build than a shuttle+reaver combo. They're way better than reavers are and are easier to control en masse in my opinion, and the reaver was already a ridiculously amazing unit.
These comparisons don't really work though, because the games are so different. Z in SC1 doesn't have the roach, a cheap spammable unit which basically shits on all toss gateway units. They had the hydra back then but at least hydras got owned by storm. Z in SC1 also didnt have the corruptor, a long range air unit capable of killing reavers almost instantly.
So what I'm saying is, Toss basically NEEDS those colossi in order to survive now. Maybe they can be a little imbalanced in some situations but I think nerfing colossi even a little bit could very easily mess up the balance of the matchup.
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On February 03 2011 12:30 Aquafresh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:42 Rodregeus wrote:On February 03 2011 10:30 blade55555 wrote:On February 03 2011 10:27 prOxi.swAMi wrote:
"Zerg are so underpowered, nerf terran!"
*Zergs dominate GSL*
"You can't say Zerg are fine just because they won GSLs!"
*Terrans dominate GSL*
"OMG, Terran is raping GSL, look how many terrans! Clearly overpowered! There's no zerg representation!"
OK Zerg users, spell it out for us. Are we, or are we not allowed to infer balance conclusions from GSLs? Because once upon a time, we weren't allowed. But now that's what you're doing. Is it because it's convenient to do so now?
So transparent. I think you have something wrong "zergs dominate GSL" is completely wrong. Winning GSL and dominating are completely different. GSL1, Fruitdealer didnt' even "dominate" (almost lost vs TOP) every other zerg was out by ro16 I believe? GSL2 Nestea dominated through almost the entire GSL not zergs just nestea. GSL3 again zergs didn't dominate. As far as I know zergs have never "dominated" a GSL just a zerg has won it twice, winning a GSL and dominating are completely different ^^ I would just like to point out, That in a game with 3 races. Zerg has won exactly 50% of GSL finals. Along with the fact that zerg has been the least represented from the start, by about half that of Terran. Making their base chance at winning the GSL much slimmer than terrans. Even if the game was perfectly balanced, and GSL had 50% terrans, 25% Zerg and 25% protoss, Terran would still be more likely to win as a race because there are more there to begin with. Basically, less Zergs manage to beat out more terrans, for 50% of GSL wins in a game with 3 races. I hardly think that shows that zerg is UP at all. :/ It's all just carry over from beta, the game has changed since then. Ok I hate to derail this thread even more but lets put this to bed once and for all. Zerg did not "dominate" anything as far as GSL is concerned. There had been 3 open seasons before this for a total of 24 Ro8 players. I pick Ro8 as this was a significant milestone in each tournament format and it just looks even worse if you only consider quarter-finalists. Of these 24 spots 11 were Terran, 6 were Zerg, and 7 were Protoss. Furthermore these 6 zerg spots were the work of just 4 players, whereas 9 different Terrans made round of 8, and 6 different Protoss took top 8 spots. On the whole Zerg did not do very well in the GSL. Cool and Zergbong did well in the GSL. The only other Zergs able to even crack the top 8 were Zenio and a one hit wonder by Kirix. Both of these in Season 2, which took place right after a major balance patch in which most the previous top players struggled to figure zerg out for a little while. Is this proof that Zerg is weak? No probably not. But the notion that they "dominated" or even performed particularly well in the GSL is pretty silly.
First and foremost. Please take your index finger and point where in my post I said anything about anyone dominating anything at all. For your own benefit because I already know the answer.
Secondly, are you trying to tell me, that winning the entire GSL twice, and having a place in the quater/semi finals for the other 2, as the least represented race from the start. Does not constitute doing well?
You're seriously saying that the over all winning race, is not doing well in terms of the GSL?
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I liked it best when they disagreed on something. Just hearing two guys(pros) talk and lecture about some sort of imbalance isn't a useful discussion. To really get something out of it it makes sense to have differing viewpoints presented. If one person thinks it is balanced and the other doesn't and they both point out reasons it helps bring out some answers to how one player can deal with it.
I think the most interesting part was when they talked about how they typically overcame the Collossus. Talking about the circumstances an imbalance is overcome leads to very interesting discussion into new techniques and strategies against said imbalance.
I'm looking forward to some new episodes and really hope they bring in some other faces, include replay footage and get some arguing going. Disagreement spurs new knowledge =D
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Great show, THANKS to you guys, I'm really looking forward for more episodes. I think that on this episode you guys were pretty much spot on when analyzing the colossi in zvp - the unit is really hard to deal with since corruptors are pretty much the only choice - for this you need the perfect amount to kill the colossi fast enough they don't demolish your whole ground army before they die. In the other hand the supply tied to units that come absolutely useless after the colossi die cannot be too high, since otherwise the gateway army just tramples over anything you have left and suddenly you don't have a main anymore.
Coupled with voidrays this protoss composition becomes almost impossible to deal with, and i'm pretty much sure there is nothing to do as a zerg when the game gets to this point - and this in my opinion is kind of bad game design. There is one option I have neither got to really test and have never seen used so i have no idea how useful it might be, and that is the use of fungal when dealing with the deathball, but I'm guessing that won't do much since the deathball just overall outranges the zerg army and you can basically just buy some time to resupply with good fungals.
Funny to see the outrage this show has caused, can't believe people can be so intimidated when somebody is discussing balance in a more serious manner. I do agree that it is detrimental to a player's development if he mainly sees all his losses to be because of imbalance and thus never really tries to figure out how to kill something. For example can somebody actually claim that it requires the same amount of skill to perform a slow 2base tank push with a thor and marines in meta close pos than it is to defend that with zerg? I guess that can be defended, but the zerg really needs to do more actions and good decisions just to stay alive there compared to the amount of clicks/decisions needed for the terran to win outright.
Actually I'd LOVE if the scenario I presented would be on the show at some point, not specifically on close pos ofc, but the strength of good tank/marine push with some thors to really kill all mutalisk sniping. This combination is equally hard to deal with as colossi, with the exception that when you get broods you can take it out somewhat reasonably, the problem is this hits you often when you are only with lairtech, and rushing to hive basically hurts so much it''s not viable versus a competent player in my opinion.
Furthermore I'd like to say to everyone complaining about people talking about balance: It's best to discuss this NOW, when the game is still getting actively patched - like Blizzard has stated, they take MANY approaches when considering balance, and I believe community discussion is one of them. It's too late to play for 5 years and then start to see that (just an example here) yeah, zerg can't really do shit against those colossi, too bad Blizz gives us like a patch every two years now. And people doing BW references on balance discussions - this is a different game, Blizzard has developed as an organization, there's no need to do the same mistakes again and trust that imbalances even themselves out when given enough time, they have the resources to address the issues now.
TL:DR:
Great job Artosis and IdrA, spot on on zvp colossi analysis, balance discussions are needed, hope to see you discuss tank/marine/thor in the future.
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I completly agree on the fact that the Colossi are too strong, but not because of the damage, nor the range... but because they're kinda contracitory.
Up untill now units with alot of range have been and are used as siege units in most RTS games, meaning they're very powerfull and have great range but are hard to be movile with... protoss great advantage is that they're all over the map, if you try to atack an adjacent base they can just warpgate units in (if its an small force you're sending), and with the aid of cannons its really hard to put real preassure on side bases with zerg (unless you're terran dropping marauders  ).
Zerg's only way of victory is to engage the protoss main army and win, but at maxed armies protoss will allways have the advantage because of army eficiency (forcefields + colossi).
In broodwar you could attack into tanks by abusing the mobility, heck even now you can do it, thats basically what MarineKingPrime teached us, if you're opponent's army is strong but immobile flank and hit somewhere else.
both things are nulified by protoss as its easy to get trapped and lose everything if you committ too much of an army to atack side expansios and stuff.
fact of the matter is Colossi are too fast, they're used as siege to lure in with their great range and damage, and can jump in and out of battles with their great speed.
colossi need to get their movement speed reduced, by like half of what it is right now, and engaging a protoss army will be much better / easier to deal with.
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On February 04 2011 12:30 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:36 jalstar wrote:On February 04 2011 10:33 SubtleArt wrote:On February 04 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition: BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them. Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead. BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play. BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg. Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance. Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs. Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP) Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/ 1) I think you completely misinterpreted their definitions. 2) Idra's a pro gamer whos been practicng day in day out ever since beta was released, and whos played in all gsls so far. You don't think he's "played a few PvP and PvZ games" to see how to deal with collosus? Really? Did you even watch the video? They spent like 5 minutes talking about how Idra Artosis Ret and Haypro spent days practicing early brood lords as a new style to ZvP Did you read my post? Obviously he's played those games, so why not show us the reps and explain thought processes instead of just saying "it's imbalanced according to my completely made-up definition of imbalanced" I agree with this. More than anything else, the production of the show needs to be changed. IdrA and Artosis sitting on a couch is kind of weird, and doesn't help them illustrate their points at all. Game footage would go a long way to making it a much better show.
No, it wouldn't. And one couldn't show anything with short video cliips that nay-sayers wouldn't disagree with. So, nope, the show is good as is.
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On February 04 2011 11:52 Krigstar wrote:
Saechiis said everything that needed to be said. What a complete piece of garbage. We have all seen Idra enjoying the privilege of explaining his losses once every week with Artosis agreeing, but to actually see a GSL caster and TL icon who is fucking awesome at his job, sink this low... It honestly makes me sad.
Also, Chills pointers in this thread are the most retarded attempt of censorship I've ever seen. What an embarassingly obvious and lame attempt to give himself the right to ban everyone but the bronze level suckups. Jesus fucking christ...
User was temp banned for this post.
And it's people like you my friends, that make the forums go Q.Q.
We should be VERY lucky to have Chill even allowing this thread to be open.
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On February 04 2011 12:44 theOnslaught wrote:I completly agree on the fact that the Colossi are too strong, but not because of the damage, nor the range... but because they're kinda contracitory. Up untill now units with alot of range have been and are used as siege units in most RTS games, meaning they're very powerfull and have great range but are hard to be movile with... protoss great advantage is that they're all over the map, if you try to atack an adjacent base they can just warpgate units in (if its an small force you're sending), and with the aid of cannons its really hard to put real preassure on side bases with zerg (unless you're terran dropping marauders ). Zerg's only way of victory is to engage the protoss main army and win, but at maxed armies protoss will allways have the advantage because of army eficiency (forcefields + colossi). In broodwar you could attack into tanks by abusing the mobility, heck even now you can do it, thats basically what MarineKingPrime teached us, if you're opponent's army is strong but immobile flank and hit somewhere else. both things are nulified by protoss as its easy to get trapped and lose everything if you committ too much of an army to atack side expansios and stuff. fact of the matter is Colossi are too fast, they're used as siege to lure in with their great range and damage, and can jump in and out of battles with their great speed. colossi need to get their movement speed reduced, by like half of what it is right now, and engaging a protoss army will be much better / easier to deal with.
That would actually make a lot of sense. We could probably even see a lot more warp prizm with speed play used for collossi drops and retreats. Clearly it would be more a callback to the way Reavers worked. Could add some good micro opportunities and balance a bit for the big 1A vs. 1A battles.
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It's strange that most people just seem to catch on to the word imbalanced and ignore what I thought was the biggest point of the episode - that the problem in PvZ is that the P army with collossus can force an engagement where they want by poking in with the huge range and then use forcefields if the zerg bite. This is why it becomes a problem on small maps.
With this in mind the solution might be fixed by something else than changing the colossuss. Some buff to corruptors might work to create a bigger danger for the protoss in trying to decide where to engage the army. There should be a possibility to sort of catch the collossus off guard if they are trying to poke. Another thing might simply be infestor usage, but that has also the range problem.
The only thing zerg has with range is broodlords and hydras. Broodlords are too slow to "catch" an army, which means that you really have to take the protoss completely by surprise which means its just a situational solution and not really ideal. The hydras is what the collossus counters so that is obviously not the answer. So then the only real ranged threat that remains is the corruptor. I don't know exactly what needs to be done but I think that Idra and Artosis managed to get their point through pretty good and it seems to be a problem here.
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Increase corrupter range to -1 collosus range or decrease collosus movement speed, and voila.. balance.
But to be honest, I've seen a protoss ball of death not have collosus in it vs zerg. But was more a mass voidray stalker immortal build with forcefield and it basically was unstoppable providing they didnt get caught out of position.
Zerg isn't verstaile enough to handle high dps high splash attacks. That being said, I am another zerg player, and everyone will hate me for posting my opinion 
Pheonix's are balanced tooo.......*Cough*
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I feel like this episode is like saying in SC1 omg carriers are imba cause if he gets 20 theiy're unstoppable!
Building a collosus deathball, particularly with voidray support to stop corrupters is not something your opponent can just sit back and do if you are abusing mobility, denying expansions, nydusing, dropping etc.
They seemed to understand this with mass muta saying the counter that protoss discovered that prevents mutas from being imba was a big timing push BEFORE the muta ball came and killed you but somehow with collosi we're supposed to believe they just magically appear and there is no weakness in the protoss defense while they invest 700/500 in the first collosi with range?
Also I think the format would be much better with replays or something.
Like if the collosus is imba show us a game where a clearly better player loses to a clearly worse player due to collosi and analyze the game in a way that would teach your entire audience something.
Even with as much knowledge and insight as artosis and idra have this whole episode felt like a lot of theory crafting rather than solid analysis.
I also will not be watching this show in the future as I think focusing on this type of stuff rather than improving your own game is completely counter productive, but I appreciate that it is a form of entertainment that many may enjoy.
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When Artosis says "reaper whas slightly nerfed" it figures that he doesn't play Terran. Otherwise it would be something sloser to "reaper was nerfed so hard that he was made completely redundant". But I understand how extremely powerful the Reaper was before.
The show is great, Idra and Artosis go in depth without claiming to be the ultimate judges of balance. Keep it up!
The thread is bound to be complete garbage but It'd be good to let if live just to get more people to watch the show itself.
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On February 04 2011 12:30 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:36 jalstar wrote:On February 04 2011 10:33 SubtleArt wrote:On February 04 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition: BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them. Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead. BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play. BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg. Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance. Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs. Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP) Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/ 1) I think you completely misinterpreted their definitions. 2) Idra's a pro gamer whos been practicng day in day out ever since beta was released, and whos played in all gsls so far. You don't think he's "played a few PvP and PvZ games" to see how to deal with collosus? Really? Did you even watch the video? They spent like 5 minutes talking about how Idra Artosis Ret and Haypro spent days practicing early brood lords as a new style to ZvP Did you read my post? Obviously he's played those games, so why not show us the reps and explain thought processes instead of just saying "it's imbalanced according to my completely made-up definition of imbalanced" I agree with this. More than anything else, the production of the show needs to be changed. IdrA and Artosis sitting on a couch is kind of weird, and doesn't help them illustrate their points at all. Game footage would go a long way to making it a much better show.
If people aren't a retard and watch any streams what so ever vs colossi you can understand the points they're making very clearly. Nony has showed this off tons in pvp and ret, idra, mr bitter tons in their streams as well. I could understand the points that were made just fine.
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EPT
