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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 04 2011 09:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 09:06 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote:
Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community.
TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums.
You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play.
Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered.
You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players?
You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame.
Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. Thank you for this post, it's exceptional. 100% agree with this. Collosus was already slightly nerfed (they brought the damage down but increased firing rate, this is an indirect nerf since all units have armour) for the reasons they brought out. Further nerfing it would just make it an ineffective counter to something that otherwise has no counter (hydra/roach). It's simply too expensive to spam immortal-templar (immortal vs roach templar vs hydra).
I have to agree too.
I watched like 20 minutes of their show, but then i got bored.
Usually i love watching Artosis talking about game matchups etc., but this show didnt seem like a show where they tried to discuss in an objective way about possible imbalances.
It more seemed like Idra had a little too much influence on Artosis, and now they felt they had to tell us how overpowered the Collosus is.
After Artosis asked Idra what he thinks about the Collosus, idra answered: "I think its too strong".
Coming from a zerg player, or should i say from THAT zerg player, it didnt surprise me.
But what disappointed me, was that they did talk little about the TvP where the Collosus is doing fine, and not a word about how hard it is for Protoss to GET the collosus without dying to Ling / Roach Army in the early midgame.
Roaches scale far better with upgrades than gateway units. Why dont they talk about that?
Its kinda easy to talk about the strength of a unit, when ignoring every other aspect of the unit / the background.
Its a bit like saying that Broodlords are kinda imbalanced vs. Terrans because they mess up with the bio AI.
That comparison may not be the best. I just want to point out, that its not that easy to get Broodlords, and you have to think about that too, when you talk about the strength of a unit.
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One thing that strikes me is that no one seems to have any solution to imbalance issues. It seems like even Blizzard is unknowing in this. On the battle.net forums Blizz representatives respond to IMBA-threads by asking for concrete examples and suggestions..
So say it was up to the pros to come up with suggestions to fix the game, what would those be?
For example: what can be done to fix the collossus imbalance? As Idra indicates, the Collossus is too strong compared to the other units. How to tone down the collossus and up the other units to even it out more?
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To be honest, I was really surprised how many negative reactions there were. When I watched the episode, sure, I supposed there would be some uproars, as the two (or 1.5) zerg players were mainly focusing on their race and its current problems in the game.
However, I really liked how well differenciated they have been on the topic of imbalance. Not only did they thoroughly explain what they exactly understand by the term imbalance, they also made very, very clear that it is mostly their opinion or feeling, and every so often they mentioned that they could as well just be wrong and their assumptions could prove false. They even gave a lot of alternative possibilities, never claiming that Zerg was UP or the Colossus itself too strong. Most notably the part where (I believe it was) IdrA said, the strength of the Colossus even puts restrictions on protosses, since they don't really have an alternative unit to use in many circumstances, especially in PvP and PvZ. So if there was a way to make the Colossus not weaker, but to give Protoss a few other ways of reacting to certain situations, it would not only open up more possibilities for P but also probably give Z more ways to deal with Protoss in a macro game.
I really don't think they should have focused more on the PvT matchup, since, as it was also said in the show, the viking really is a unit that can deal with the colossus. As a Terran player myself, I never have this odd feeling of "Oh damn, he lived long enough to build X colossi, what am I gonna do now". You have many more possibilities to deal with that - e.g. abuse their immobility (because compared to dropships, they are, even with cliffwalking) - and if they just ignore the drops and go straight for your base, you could as well have loads of tanks sitting around there, making it impossible for any colossus force to move along. The current shift to mech or biomech in TvP clearly indicates that those are possibilities.
However, since they decided to specifically focus this one unit in their first episode of the show, it makes perfect sense to concentrate on the PvZ matchup.
Maybe some of you should really wait for some more episodes, because I can't imagine they won't also focus on other races and other units of concern, even if Z has no problems dealing with them. Just try to not assume they are biased. It really drives you away from the argument(s) they are trying to make. If you disagree with anything they've said - well that's perfectly alright, it was even stated it is nothing but their opinion. As long as you attack the thesis with reason and don't attack the person because you sense it's nothing but QQ, everyone's happy to read your comments.
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I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition:
BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them.
Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead.
BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play.
BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg.
Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance.
Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs.
Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP)
Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/
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What about not letting the protoss build up a huge collossus ball ?
Early pressure. Force him into stalkers or whatever. Im no pro, but there are alot of strategys.
You cant let him turtle and then be surprised he kills you with a 200 army. o_O
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On February 04 2011 10:18 PapaDragon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 09:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 04 2011 09:06 SoLaR[i.C] wrote:On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote:
Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community.
TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums.
You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play.
Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered.
You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players?
You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame.
Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now. Thank you for this post, it's exceptional. 100% agree with this. Collosus was already slightly nerfed (they brought the damage down but increased firing rate, this is an indirect nerf since all units have armour) for the reasons they brought out. Further nerfing it would just make it an ineffective counter to something that otherwise has no counter (hydra/roach). It's simply too expensive to spam immortal-templar (immortal vs roach templar vs hydra). I have to agree too. I watched like 20 minutes of their show, but then i got bored. Usually i love watching Artosis talking about game matchups etc., but this show didnt seem like a show where they tried to discuss in an objective way about possible imbalances. It more seemed like Idra had a little too much influence on Artosis, and now they felt they had to tell us how overpowered the Collosus is. After Artosis asked Idra what he thinks about the Collosus, idra answered: "I think its too strong". Coming from a zerg player, or should i say from THAT zerg player, it didnt surprise me. But what disappointed me, was that they did talk little about the TvP where the Collosus is doing fine, and not a word about how hard it is for Protoss to GET the collosus without dying to Ling / Roach Army in the early midgame. Roaches scale far better with upgrades than gateway units. Why dont they talk about that? Its kinda easy to talk about the strength of a unit, when ignoring every other aspect of the unit / the background. Its a bit like saying that Broodlords are kinda imbalanced vs. Terrans because they mess up with the bio AI. That comparison may not be the best. I just want to point out, that its not that easy to get Broodlords, and you have to think about that too, when you talk about the strength of a unit.
They did talk how roaches > gateway units. Idra talked about how he felt the matchup was stale because it relies so much on collosus, to the point where zerg is willing to throw away a 200 / 200 army just to kill the collosus so that when he remaxes he can fight the much weaker gateway composition
On February 04 2011 10:22 PapaDragon wrote:
What about not letting the protoss build up a huge collossus ball ?
Early pressure. Force him into stalkers or whatever. Im no pro, but there are alot of strategys.
You cant let him turtle and then be surprised he kills you with a 200 army. o_O
Obviously theres timing pushes you can do vs collosus but in general Zerg isn't good at being aggresive or forcing the tempo, and a protoss with good cannon placement, positioning, and forcefield use can pretty effectively shut down aggresion. Not to mention that almost any early roach ling attack is all in or semi all in. Even then, if the whole premise is "collosus aren't imbalanced, just don't let him get them" I think that's pretty bad too. A unit shouldn't be so good that the only way to kill it is to kill the opponent before it becomes prominent (yes carriers in brood war vT were retarded =_=).
I'm wondering if its a good idea to nerf the collosus but buff gateway units to compensate. Collosus would still play a role in the game but not so much that they dictate everything. Obviously this would require tweaking warpgates or else 4 warpgate is unbeatable of course
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Where do we submit questions?
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On February 04 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition: BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them. Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead. BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play. BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg. Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance. Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs. Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP) Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/
1) I think you completely misinterpreted their definitions.
2) Idra's a pro gamer whos been practicng day in day out ever since beta was released, and whos played in all gsls so far. You don't think he's "played a few PvP and PvZ games" to see how to deal with collosus? Really? Did you even watch the video? They spent like 5 minutes talking about how Idra Artosis Ret and Haypro spent days practicing early brood lords as a new style to ZvP
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On February 04 2011 10:33 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:I really don't like their definition of imbalance, it seems like with the definition they use BW is more imbalanced than SC2 because there's more possible unit compositions to use in SC2. By Artosis and Idra's definition: BW Siege Tanks are imbalanced, they're necessary in TvP and TvT and it's hard but not impossible to play TvZ without them. Scouts, Queens, Dark Archons, Devourers, Disruption Web, and Ghosts are all imbalanced, since it's almost always optimal to make some other unit instead. BW ZvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever, since muta-ling crushes any sort of hydra or tech focused play. BW Marine-Medic is underpowered since it's impossible to use in any matchup besides Zerg. Not every unit combination has to be viable in a balanced game. In fact, it's easier to balance a game if there's a good deal of units that are pretty much useless in high-level multiplayer. The only SC2 one I can think of is the Reaper, which Artosis claims is "balanced" even though it pretty much meets his definition of imbalance. Basically the title seems like a way to rope people into watching a show about unit diversity, which I don't believe is something the game really needs. Edit: My post seemed a bit unproductive, so here's what I'd rather see. I'd like to see a show about how to beat things that are considered imbalanced, even if it is just theorycrafting. I want to see them play a few PvP and PvZ games and try to take down colossus play instead of just talking about it. (obviously without going colossus in the PvP) Example: Day[9] trying to figure out how to beat mech play before the siege tank nerf. http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3732380/ and http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/3716106/ 1) I think you completely misinterpreted their definitions. 2) Idra's a pro gamer whos been practicng day in day out ever since beta was released, and whos played in all gsls so far. You don't think he's "played a few PvP and PvZ games" to see how to deal with collosus? Really? Did you even watch the video? They spent like 5 minutes talking about how Idra Artosis Ret and Haypro spent days practicing early brood lords as a new style to ZvP
Did you read my post? Obviously he's played those games, so why not show us the reps and explain thought processes instead of just saying "it's imbalanced according to my completely made-up definition of imbalanced"
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The IMBALANCED! show is thoroughly good, OP even. Much welcomed, compared to grating my eyes over balance argument flame threads.
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what about making collosi slightly slower?
they are so fast and they strike from a distance too......
main problem in ZvP is that collosi come out of their deathballs and reign chaos from a safe distance, just to run back once something arrives
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For example: what can be done to fix the collossus imbalance? As Idra indicates, the Collossus is too strong compared to the other units. How to tone down the collossus and up the other units to even it out more?
One thing he did say that contributed to it being too powerful in the matchup is the fact that it has a very long range. The zerg units take a lot of damage before they are even able to attack. So, maybe just taking the collossus range upgrade out of the game would solve this.
It would allow zergs to move in, and the collossus can't hide behind the gateway units as well. Makes them a little more vulnerable. But, with good control and what not - someone could still protect them.
I know that if I ever go Collosus I always get that upgrade.
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On February 04 2011 10:18 PapaDragon wrote:
But what disappointed me, was that they did talk little about the TvP where the Collosus is doing fine
The show is called imbalance.
Why talk about a matchup where the unit is actually balanced? They specifically stated early in the cast that they wouldn't talk about TvP because it is already balanced there.
You really wanted to hear about exactly how it is balanced?
I enjoyed the discussion anyways, thanks artosis. Some people here take this a little too seriously.
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On February 04 2011 10:52 HeadDesk wrote:Show nested quote +
For example: what can be done to fix the collossus imbalance? As Idra indicates, the Collossus is too strong compared to the other units. How to tone down the collossus and up the other units to even it out more?
One thing he did say that contributed to it being too powerful in the matchup is the fact that it has a very long range. The zerg units take a lot of damage before they are even able to attack. So, maybe just taking the collossus range upgrade out of the game would solve this. It would allow zergs to move in, and the collossus can't hide behind the gateway units as well. Makes them a little more vulnerable. But, with good control and what not - someone could still protect them. I know that if I ever go Collosus I always get that upgrade.
maybe make higher range atack have longer cooldown? ida know ............
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On February 04 2011 10:29 Gentso wrote:
Where do we submit questions?
IMBALANCEDshow@gmail.com
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I would LOVE to actually see some solutions to the mentioned balance issues.
I see a lot of talking in the whole SC2 community. Imbalances are felt, and are addressed by all levels of players. Now there's even this show, which is definitely a great idea, because it tries to analyze the issues and scrape all the superficialness from the discussion, so we get closer to the point and the actual status quo.
BUT I see also that, beyond the description of the problem, there's not much solution to it. The two outcomes of the situations mentioned in the video are a) waiting until Z players figure it out and b) changing the maps (which, as IdrA stated, is not sufficient, or would destroy other parts of the game).
Directly changing the colossus will definitely change not only the ZvP matchup, but also the PvT one, which then might favor the Terran in some kind of way. Tinkering with the colossus will maybe solve one problem, but open another hole in the balance in other matchups. So we do have a problem that is being seen but nobody (neither Blizzard nor the progamers) have a solution. And that's where I see a flaw in the show. Talking about balance issues alone (same way the Morrow interview on maps did, some time ago) doesn't HELP anyone. Blizzard is not so blind to see the issue, but they don't have the solution either. So if progamers wanna contribute, they won't do it by only analyzing the problem, but rather working out ideas to remove it.
I by no means wanna bash the two for doing the show, because analyzing a problem is always the first step to a solution, but imo it doesn't go far enough. I would love to see some actual ideas about how to fix the balance, because addressing it in a more sophisticated, less QQ way does not take the discussion further.
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On February 04 2011 07:37 PD wrote:
The only complaint I can give is the format. It's basically 30 minutes of two dudes looking into a camera from a sofa. Maybe you could add some footage etc to mix it up? Basically show me why this should be a video instead of a podcast!
This is so true. Of course, if the whole idea of the show is only that Artosis and Idra want to give their perspective on things, i guess it doesn't matter.
But if you really want to make something out of the concept and attract a crowd, please spice it a bit up. 
Actually, this post is best suggestion in the whole topic:
On February 04 2011 09:12 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:I like the simple style of the show. I want to suggest a cool artosis-style intro like this: + Show Spoiler +An intro where the camera films the city of seoul only to unexpectedly find Artosis and Idra sitting around somewhere. Artosis and Idra will then get up, approach the camera, take their sunglasses off and greed the audience. This should be the intro theme song of the show: + Show Spoiler +
(even though it's probably not serious, it sounds awesome)
But if you want to keep the editting down, i guess you could already do a lot by having one or more guests to the show. Maybe more a panel format?
Or if you really have time to put in lots of effort, the free to choose (Frieman's docu series in the '80's) format would be unbeatable with Idra performing as Friedman. :p
First some footage, commented by Idra, trying to make a point, followed by a debate with some guests. I'd seriously pay to see that. (but it would of course ask huge editorial efforts, which is a problem i presume)
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Trade your Corruptors for Protoss's Colossi before the battle starts. Problem solved.
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I sent this question to imbalancedshow@gmail.com already, but I wanted to see what others on TL thought:
This sounds like a bit of a silly question, but in the context of what they described as "imbalanced", do you think Brood War is balanced? I mean I played and watched for a long time, but some of their points got me thinking...
Artosis said that there shouldn't be a unit that makes you say "oh no he has X now, the game is over". Is this at all comparable to defilers? I'm not saying defilers were game ending for ZvT or ZvP, but certainly a game could completely change once hive tech hit. The ability to now use lings to take down expos with cannons, or shove a bunch of lurkers into a terran choke certainly changed the dynamics of the matchup once sufficient defilers were around. Would you say defilers might be overpowered?
Similarly talking about PvP, would you say reavers are imbalanced as shuttle/reaver with dragoon was so prevalent in PvP? The reaver was clearly a critical unit for that matchup, but would you say it revolved around it too much?
I think it'd be a great to have a basis for comparison. For example if we just all assume brood war is balanced, then we can start comparing units, situations, etc... to brood war.
For example it might be the case that colossi are only imbalanced if they are able to amass a certain amount by a certain time. I mean imagine if ultras and defilers were lair tech in brood war. That would clearly make those units imbalanced. So using brood war you might be able to draw comparisons to things that are and aren't balanced.
So given what they've said in the show, do you feel that brood war is or is not balanced?
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On February 04 2011 10:55 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 10:18 PapaDragon wrote:
But what disappointed me, was that they did talk little about the TvP where the Collosus is doing fine The show is called imbalance. Why talk about a matchup where the unit is actually balanced? They specifically stated early in the cast that they wouldn't talk about TvP because it is already balanced there. You really wanted to hear about exactly how it is balanced? I enjoyed the discussion anyways, thanks artosis. Some people here take this a little too seriously.
I totally back up this sentiment. Sometimes I wonder about people.. Seriously if you don't like a show, especially an internet based show run by two people, nobody's holding a gun to your head to watch it (or bash it for that matter).
Artosis or Idra if you happen to read this, I enjoyed it and hope to see more of it! Also, I sent in a possible talking point to the e-mail!
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EPT
