On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Other carnivores also practice murder against one's own species (e.g. Lions killing each other to become the alpha male) - does that make it OK for humans to kill each other to exert dominance?
Hey, other animals do it so it must be OK! Forget free will and restraint.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Do they torture them for years? Pump them full of toxic stuff, make them stay in one place to constantly breed, and not gain any muscle, and not have any sunlight?
There's a difference between animals eating animals and us eating animals by torturing them in the extremely long process.
I wouldn't have a problem if animal rights supporters focused on the living conditions of factory farmed animals instead of saying it's not okay to eat any kind of meat. It's not like trying to convert a species of omnivores into herbivores is a natural thing to do either. Maybe both sides should leave nature alone.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Do they torture them for years? Pump them full of toxic stuff, make them stay in one place to constantly breed, and not gain any muscle, and not have any sunlight?
There's a difference between animals eating animals and us eating animals by torturing them in the extremely long process.
I wouldn't have a problem if animal rights supporters focused on the living conditions of factory farmed animals instead of saying it's not okay to eat any kind of meat. It's not like trying to convert a species of omnivores into herbivores is a natural thing to do either. Maybe both sides should leave nature alone.
A fair look at the evidence shows that humans are optimized for eating plant foods, according to the best evidence: our bodies. We're most similar to other herbivores, and drastically different from carnivores and true omnivores.1,2,3 The science shows that the more meat we eat, the sicker we get -- heart disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, and every other major degenerative disease. If eating meat were so natural, it wouldn't destroy our health.
Since this is a long article, here's a condensed version:
*
Our so-called "canine teeth" are "canine" in name only. Other plant-eaters (like gorillas, horses, and hippos) have "canines", and chimps, who are almost exclusively vegan, have massive canines compared to ours. *
Our early ancestors from at least four million years ago were almost exclusively vegetarian. *
Our omnivorism means we're capable of eating meat (useful from a survival standpoint if that's all that's available), but our bodies aren't geared for it to be a normal, significant part of our diets. *
The animals most similar to us, the other primates, eat an almost exclusively vegan diet (and their main non-plant food often isn't meat, it's termites). * Our teeth, saliva, stomach acid, and intestines are most similar to other plant-eaters, and dissimilar to carnivores and true omnivores.
* Among animals, plant-eaters have the longest lifespans, and humans are certainly in that category (and yes, this was true even before modern medicine).
* We sleep about the same amount of time as other herbivores, and less than carnivores and true omnivores.
* The most common cause of choking deaths is eating meat. (source) Real carnivores and omnivores don't have that problem.
The meat-eating reader already has half a dozen objections to this before s/he's even read the rest of the article, and I will address those objections specifically, but first let me address them generally: It is human nature to want to feel that what we're doing is right, proper, and logical. When we're confronted with something that suggests that our current practices are not the best ones, it's uncomfortable. We can either consider that our choices may not have been the best ones, which is extremely disturbing, or we can reject that premise without truly considering it, so that we don't have to feel bad about our actions. That's the more comfortable approach. And we do this by searching our minds for any arguments we can for why the challenge must be wrong, to justify our current behavior. This practice is so common psychologists have a name for it: cognitive dissonance.
Think about that for a moment: Our feeling that our current actions are correct isn't based on our arguments. Rather, our actions come first and then we come up with the arguments to try to support those actions. If we were truly logical, we'd consider the evidence first and then decide the best course of action. But often we have it in reverse, because it's too difficult to accept that we might have been wrong.
Vegan bodybuilders shatter the myth that vegans are skinny and malnourished. This is particularly true when it comes to vegetarianism. It's easy to identify because the anti-vegetarian arguments are usually so extreme, compared to other kinds of discourse. A person who would never normally suggest something so fantastic as the idea that plants can think and feel pain, will suddenly all but lunge for such an argument when they feel their meat-eating ways are being questioned, and they're looking for a way to justify it. It's human nature.
I used to be in the same position as most readers probably are now. Long ago my habits were challenged by a book I ran across in the library called Going Vegetarian. I didn't want to consider it fairly, because I wanted to keep eating meat. I'd grown up eating it, and I liked it. And there was another reason: I'd grown up in a small farming community raising and killing chickens. Accepting the book's premise really meant that I'd have to admit that I might not have made the best choices. So I came up with various weak defenses to justify my behavior. But deep down I knew I was kidding myself, and practicing a form of intellectual cowardice. When I considered the arguments honestly, I stopped eating animals. There was really no other logical choice. That was 25 years ago and it was absolutely the best decision I ever made.
So I challenge you: stop trying to figure out ways that I "must" be wrong even before you've bothered to read the rest of this article. Instead, read it, and actually consider it rather than reflexively trying to come out with ways to dismiss it out of hand. You can certainly still disagree after you've considered all the evidence -- but not before.
Most meat-eating readers will find it necessary to try to defeat me, at least in their minds, so let's agree that that would mean providing more and better evidence for your position. One does not win the argument by making a single point, as most of the readers who email me seem to think. The evidence favoring a plant diet for humans is clear, convincing, and overwhelming. There is definitely some evidence for the other side, to be sure, but it's simply not nearly as strong. What I'm saying is, if there are 30 strong points for, and you come up with one or two against, then which is the better position? I mention this because the people who email me about this article seem to believe that whoever makes the fewest and weakest points has presented the most convincing case. They somehow seem to believe that all the evidence I present somehow vanishes into thin air when they present their lone argument. Please don't fall into that trap.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Other carnivores also practice murder against one's own species (e.g. Lions killing each other to become the alpha male) - does that make it OK for humans to kill each other to exert dominance?
Hey, other animals do it so it must be OK! Forget free will and restraint.
Sure, that's fine, as long as you understand there are consequences for your actions, just as there are for the lions.
That is really one of the saddest things i have read in a while. I am a huge animal guy (not like PETA status or anything) and to hear about this makes me cringe. I have had 2 dogs in my family and they have both ended up dead. One was unexpected and one we had to put down. Both were very hard to do. To hear that this guy straight massacred around 100 dogs just seems really dark.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Do they torture them for years? Pump them full of toxic stuff, make them stay in one place to constantly breed, and not gain any muscle, and not have any sunlight?
There's a difference between animals eating animals and us eating animals by torturing them in the extremely long process.
I wouldn't have a problem if animal rights supporters focused on the living conditions of factory farmed animals instead of saying it's not okay to eat any kind of meat. It's not like trying to convert a species of omnivores into herbivores is a natural thing to do either. Maybe both sides should leave nature alone.
A fair look at the evidence shows that humans are optimized for eating plant foods, according to the best evidence: our bodies. We're most similar to other herbivores, and drastically different from carnivores and true omnivores.1,2,3 The science shows that the more meat we eat, the sicker we get -- heart disease, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, and every other major degenerative disease. If eating meat were so natural, it wouldn't destroy our health.
Since this is a long article, here's a condensed version:
*
Our so-called "canine teeth" are "canine" in name only. Other plant-eaters (like gorillas, horses, and hippos) have "canines", and chimps, who are almost exclusively vegan, have massive canines compared to ours. *
Our early ancestors from at least four million years ago were almost exclusively vegetarian. *
Our omnivorism means we're capable of eating meat (useful from a survival standpoint if that's all that's available), but our bodies aren't geared for it to be a normal, significant part of our diets. *
The animals most similar to us, the other primates, eat an almost exclusively vegan diet (and their main non-plant food often isn't meat, it's termites). * Our teeth, saliva, stomach acid, and intestines are most similar to other plant-eaters, and dissimilar to carnivores and true omnivores.
* Among animals, plant-eaters have the longest lifespans, and humans are certainly in that category (and yes, this was true even before modern medicine).
* We sleep about the same amount of time as other herbivores, and less than carnivores and true omnivores.
* The most common cause of choking deaths is eating meat. (source) Real carnivores and omnivores don't have that problem.
The meat-eating reader already has half a dozen objections to this before s/he's even read the rest of the article, and I will address those objections specifically, but first let me address them generally: It is human nature to want to feel that what we're doing is right, proper, and logical. When we're confronted with something that suggests that our current practices are not the best ones, it's uncomfortable. We can either consider that our choices may not have been the best ones, which is extremely disturbing, or we can reject that premise without truly considering it, so that we don't have to feel bad about our actions. That's the more comfortable approach. And we do this by searching our minds for any arguments we can for why the challenge must be wrong, to justify our current behavior. This practice is so common psychologists have a name for it: cognitive dissonance.
Think about that for a moment: Our feeling that our current actions are correct isn't based on our arguments. Rather, our actions come first and then we come up with the arguments to try to support those actions. If we were truly logical, we'd consider the evidence first and then decide the best course of action. But often we have it in reverse, because it's too difficult to accept that we might have been wrong.
Vegan bodybuilders shatter the myth that vegans are skinny and malnourished. This is particularly true when it comes to vegetarianism. It's easy to identify because the anti-vegetarian arguments are usually so extreme, compared to other kinds of discourse. A person who would never normally suggest something so fantastic as the idea that plants can think and feel pain, will suddenly all but lunge for such an argument when they feel their meat-eating ways are being questioned, and they're looking for a way to justify it. It's human nature.
I used to be in the same position as most readers probably are now. Long ago my habits were challenged by a book I ran across in the library called Going Vegetarian. I didn't want to consider it fairly, because I wanted to keep eating meat. I'd grown up eating it, and I liked it. And there was another reason: I'd grown up in a small farming community raising and killing chickens. Accepting the book's premise really meant that I'd have to admit that I might not have made the best choices. So I came up with various weak defenses to justify my behavior. But deep down I knew I was kidding myself, and practicing a form of intellectual cowardice. When I considered the arguments honestly, I stopped eating animals. There was really no other logical choice. That was 25 years ago and it was absolutely the best decision I ever made.
So I challenge you: stop trying to figure out ways that I "must" be wrong even before you've bothered to read the rest of this article. Instead, read it, and actually consider it rather than reflexively trying to come out with ways to dismiss it out of hand. You can certainly still disagree after you've considered all the evidence -- but not before.
Most meat-eating readers will find it necessary to try to defeat me, at least in their minds, so let's agree that that would mean providing more and better evidence for your position. One does not win the argument by making a single point, as most of the readers who email me seem to think. The evidence favoring a plant diet for humans is clear, convincing, and overwhelming. There is definitely some evidence for the other side, to be sure, but it's simply not nearly as strong. What I'm saying is, if there are 30 strong points for, and you come up with one or two against, then which is the better position? I mention this because the people who email me about this article seem to believe that whoever makes the fewest and weakest points has presented the most convincing case. They somehow seem to believe that all the evidence I present somehow vanishes into thin air when they present their lone argument. Please don't fall into that trap.
User was temp banned for this post.
The link seemed like he was more interesting in proving that humans weren't carnivores than proving that humans weren't omnivores. He added a table that compared humans to herbivores and carnivores, why would he exclude omnivores from this comparison? Maybe because when the only comparisons are carnivores and herbivores and people read the chart and see that we have a lot more in common with herbivores than with carnivores they think "oh we must be herbivores then!" But I will concede. We are not omnivores. We are herbivores that eat meat as well.
Also, humans aren't monkeys or chimps. The fact that monkeys don't eat cattle isn't evidence that humans shouldn't eat cattle. Monkeys also don't eat apple pie or pasta. If you want to determine what a human's diet should be based on what other animals eat than humans probably shouldn't cook their food since other animals don't seem too fond of that... As they said in the Social Network.. If you guys were the inventors of facebook then you would've invented facebook.. well if humans were meant to be herbivores then humans would be herbivores.
On February 02 2011 14:27 pinke wrote: As far as meat in general goes, I think if you can't pick out an animal and kill it yourself or at least watch someone slaughter it, you shouldn't be eating it.
Yeah I totally agree with this actually... But if it's to actually killing it I am only qualified to eat fish and crab and aquatic things... Watching that video made me really sad
Here's the part with fish:
To be honest it doesn't go into depth and focuses on the environmental reasons rather than the fact that fish also have pain receptors. A lot better than The Cove though.
I'm fine with that. I've killed fish before.
So you're fine with fish feeling pain, but not fine with dogs feeling pain.
Sure. You understand that to kill a thing I feel pain too, it pains me less to kill a fish, i.e. I can kill it w/o feeling too sad. So yes that's fine.
Probably because you can't empathise with it. Likewise the owner who ordered the dogs be slaughtered also failed to empathise with the pain of the dogs. You understand that to kill another human they feel pain too, but it pained them less to kill the dogs, so they were able to order the killing without feeling too sad, therefore it was fine. A recent blog post:
I remember years ago in Papua New Guinea, being out on some super $$$ game fishing launch with a bunch of Aussies. I was there because it was beautiful being out on the water, but they were there to catch marlin and sailfish.
They caught one too. And lots of beers were drunk in disgusting celebration. I was really upset, which was totally pointless and useless. But they hadn’t killed it because they needed to eat. They had killed it for fun! Go figure!
well kill for fun is wrong. i am highly against it. Kill for food is okay.
On February 03 2011 16:01 Kazzabiss wrote: Thousands of animals are killed everyday to be eaten.
You mean trillions.. every single day. One cow could supply you with a nice steak or a burger once or a twice a week for maybe your entire life. This is a price too high for vegans to pay but I will bet you money that almost every single one of them will run over at least 1 animal with their car at some point in their life.. Lol
btw even if there was a cow raised free and it had a great long life and it died of natural causes and it was determined the meat was safe to eat.. then vegans most likely still wouldn't eat it. They probably wouldn't have a problem with someone else eating it.. but I doubt they would eat it themselves even if they knew the meat would be wasted.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
What sort of comparison is that? Remember, we "pride" ourselves for being really advanced and 'resisting' the basic instincts unlike all the other animals. We even use words like "humane" as synonyms for "ultimate good".We CAN act differently because we have this pretty amazing brain, which is the main difference between us and the rest of the animals.
Yet we still do fucked up things like this.Go figure
if i kill 100 cows to make some hamburgers it's ok man cows are just made to be eaten right? what's the difference between killing 100 dogs and 100 cows. If the dogs had no further use to their owner i believe it's his right to slay them
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
What sort of comparison is that? Remember, we "pride" ourselves for being really advanced and 'resisting' the basic instincts unlike all the other animals. We even use words like "humane" as synonyms for "ultimate good".We CAN act differently because we have this pretty amazing brain, which is the main difference between us and the rest of the animals.
Yet we still do fucked up things like this.Go figure
True, which is why something like this is news and considered an outrage. Even with factory farmed animals we try to slaughter animals as painlessly as possible which is why we use things like cattle stun guns.
Ironically, the fate of these dogs is no different than the fate that a lot of humans choose for themselves. A gun to the head or a cutting of arteries are common methods of suicide. The guy was trying to be humane, he just sucked at it.
Btw, people have also failed when they try to blow their own brains out.
I'm not some crazy animal rights activist. I don't believe animals are in any way equal to humans. Nor do they have the same rights we have, for obvious reasons. But this... Jesus Christ...
I'm all for hunting. And killing wild animals. But dogs? Cats? Y'know, animals like that? I guess you can call me "animalist". Some animals, at least in Western societies, are treated much better than others. And that's fine. Dogs and cats are all wonderful, loving, and caring animals. Even if they are just "work" animals, I'm sure they love to play and horse around and do everything else "normal" dogs do. Slaughtering 100 dogs to save a bit of cash? I'm sorry. That's a federal crime. 100? Really? You can't give these hard working creatures a chance for a loving owner or a cute little kid to play with? Or maybe give them a job somewhere else? Good God in Heaven.
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Other carnivores also practice murder against one's own species (e.g. Lions killing each other to become the alpha male) - does that make it OK for humans to kill each other to exert dominance?
Hey, other animals do it so it must be OK! Forget free will and restraint.
Lions don't kill each other purposely ... When a new alpha arrives in a pack he will kill all the cubs so he can get his own. If a lion dies after a fight, it was a result of the fight for dominance, not a prerequisite.
This is honest to god so incredibly disgusting. I live in Vancouver and if I had known that they DID have these dogs.. I would not have been able to give a home to them all(how I wish I could), I would have done a lot more than sit on my ass last April and play video games.
If the company had seen little use for them, instead of letting their lives go to waste, and generally wasting the money they invested into them, they could have spent a little longer trying to sell them for a decent price. People would have loved to have these dogs.
It is honestly so heartbreaking to hear something like this. I have a puppy and 3 cats, and if ANYONE ever did something like this to them, I would honestly hurt them. I wouldn't care about the consequences. How can you hurt something so innocent and pure? Something that probably hasn't been taught to defend itself.
I need to go home and cuddle with my puppy. ;__;
On February 05 2011 06:43 ishboh wrote: why couldn't they have killed cats instead
You're disgusting. .__. I need to go home and cuddle with my cats too. ;__;
On February 03 2011 12:44 iloveHieu wrote: So sad, the human race's brutality towards other animals is really pissing me off.
As opposed to all the other omnivores/carnivores on the planet? Ever seen a sheep get eaten by wolves?
Other carnivores also practice murder against one's own species (e.g. Lions killing each other to become the alpha male) - does that make it OK for humans to kill each other to exert dominance?.
History has shown us that it's actually perfectly acceptable. What do you think war is? It's only "not OK" if you're doing it and you're not the one in power.