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Hey everybody! I'm an American. Being an American, I'm attached to my country. I like to participate in various heated debates over how our politics should go, who's ruining us internally, what we're ruining externally, etc etc etc. However, taking a break from all that, since Teamliquid is a spirited international community, I have the unique opportunity to call for outside perspectives and only outside perspectives. I'd like all the TLers who do not identify as US nationals to debate anything they want about the US in this thread. US nationals are strictly banned, aside from the ability to pose questions to ask.
The Rules
1. If you do not have your country of nationality listed as your country on TL, please preface your post with your nationality.
2. If you are a US national, you may only pose prompts for our friendly outsiders to discuss. Please do not ask loaded questions, e.g. "Why do you think Obama is retarded?" If you'd like to talk to me about the idea of this thread in general, please PM me.
3. If you have any previous personal experience with the US, such as living in it, doing a homestay, talking to family from the US, please note it if you feel it has colored your view of the US.
4. Standard TL rules apply - let's treat each other with respect.
5. Debate, debate, debate. Don't just use this thread as a platform to rattle off all of your general views on the US, debate with the people who've already put up their opinions. If you agree with someone, feel free to quote them, say you agree, and provide justifications. I want to see reasoning, not just ideologies.
Anyone found disobeying these rules or posting in a disruptive fashion in general will be banned from my blog. I will list bans publicly such that arguably unfair cases can be debated.
The Prompts
Gone. People have answered most of the prompts that I've put up, so please read other people's responses and debate where you don't agree - many ideas are lacking justification, I need you guys to wean each other's thought processes out of each other. Thanks :D
  
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I once stayed at the US as my brother works in a Bank and was offered a job there at new york which he took and moved with his family. I was shocked that people where he lived (westchester county, eastchester) didn't have fences at their houses and almost share a common yard. I understand its a wealthy area but not even in the richest places here people have houses open without at least fences.
I'd like to comment that I always looked up to the US as the country were people always tried to be the "best" and get shit done, symbolized on winning WWII and getting a man on the moon, etc. I mean I assummed excelling at w/e was the default american spirit and what I mentioned before were just symbols that portrayed that.
It seems that know people there just don't care about doing their best but rather how to work less and receive the most from the government, aka what I've always tought about Spain (A stereotype, do not be offended :p)
I also dislike its current foreign policy as I find myself being a libertarian and I beleive you guys should cut government spending, specially in terms of fighting a pointless war.
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Interesting topic you brought up there, I hope there's going to be a good discussion. I picked some of the questions that I care/can comment on. Btw, I'd say I'm a right-wing liberal.
Answers
1. What do you think of the current state of two-party politics?
- Because of the two party system, neither party has a very distinctive agenda and there seems to be a stalemate, which makes some voters turn to radicals like some members of the tea party. Maybe, some parts of either party should segregate to form "distinct" programs and win back frustrated voters.
2. What do you think of US foreign policy?
- When it comes to the economic aspects of US foreign policy, I think the USA are imposing way to many regulations upon foreign countries.
- In some way, I'm thankful that the USA have always been very active and resolute when it comes to waging wars against "threatening" countries or dictators. Here in northern/western Europe, people tend to look down on this policy, because they don't know what it is like to be threatened or oppressed, so they think they can negotiate with everybody to solve problems
2a. With regards to the Middle East?
- With regards to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I think that the US foreign policy is way to passive and pro-israeli and prevents finding an effective solution.
- I appreciated the USA invading Iraq and getting rid of Saddam Hussein. Bad job on the follow-up though.
2c. Africa?
- Seems to me, that the USA do not take such a big (political/social) interest in Africa. This might change with the rise of Muslim governed countries though.
- I'd love to see the USA, Europe and the IMF take actions to develop African countries. As of yet, there has been a lot of money spent without achieving much because of corruption, inefficiency and fundamental cultural differences.
10. What do you think of Obama's presidency?
- One the one hand, I think he's had a tough presidency up until now. But on the other hand, I think he's massively overrated and I'm afraid that his fiscal policy will damage the American economy even more. This would lead to further losings in the world wide economy.
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Regarding the first question about the two-party system, let me say I find it very bad. With the majority voting system you employ, there will never be a chance for a third party to gain any influence. Voting arithmetics also mean that not every vote is worth the same. Didn't Bush win one of his elections with fewer votes than his opponent due to the representative voting system? That's not supposed to happen.
Now when there are only two parties, each of them has to have a very general agenda to cater to its wide range of voters. If I may make use of a few stereotypes, a rich businessman, a skinhead and a religious priest will probably all vote for the same Republican party, although they have completely different political views. There are currently four different parties in Austria's parliament, and each of them has more or less differentiated political agendas and caters to different audiences, and their influence is roughly proportional to the number of votes they got. That makes a lot more sense in my eyes.
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"Being an American, I'm attached to my country."
hahahahahahahahahah
User was temp banned for this post.
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Belgium9942 Posts
I'm gonna have a field day with this once I get back from my exam.
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i was shocked a few weeks ago when i watched a documentary film, about healthcare in the U.S.
I saw a by far superior technologically advanced healthcare system that had something to offer only to the rich and people with a good health insurance.
I saw people being refused treatment and thrown out of hospital, dazed and confused in the middle of nowhere in nothing but a hospital gown.
I saw people in pain sailing to cuba to become american refugees in a foreign land to receive decent healthcare for free.
I saw a country who refused volenteer workers at the countries biggest catastrophes who spent countless hours recuing and finding bodies, be refused any kind of help medically or financially.
I see a country whos war heroes are exalted and its poor and suffering rejected. A country whos billion dollar wars which cause death abroad have preference over saving their own people.
I see a first world superpower with 3rd world tendencies.
I see cover ups and intentional bending of the truth. All the while many american civilians oblivious to certain facts that change so much in so many places.
I see a country whos citizens are wonderful people and high moral standards, suppressed by a government that is profit orientated, and doesnt really care how many people have to die to get it.
I feel america needs a true leader like jfk. Who cares about the american dream and not about profit.
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Just one thing that I have though to bring up is the subject of gun laws. Obviously in America it is far easier to get guns and possess and whatnot. Even after all these shootings in schools, people still persist to say "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and "they were one-off nutcases that managed to circumvent the gun ownership regulations with regards to mental health etc".
[I'm not the most informed person on American politics and history, so please excuse my ignorance and correct me where I have made incorrect statements.]
Sure, a person has to pull the trigger, but it just constantly baffles me that it is so easy to get guns and no one does anything about it. But if there are no guns there to pull the triggers of, it will be a much less dangerous weapon. The fact that a gun owner has the easy choice to go shoot down people at a whim (highly unlikely) seems like too much power for your average joe.
To make such a powerful weapon available to the general public doesn't make sense. I get that it's in the constitution and all that, but god forbid that something in the constitution be changed for safety or a change in times.
Yes, I have heard arguments that removing easy gun ownership only takes guns away from innocent people. To that I must concede is a valid point, but all I can say is that it helps take a considerable amount of guns off the street and widdles down their number by a huge amount and helps to break the cycle of "that guy has a gun so therefore I should have a gun to protect myself" and on it goes. I speculate that this would also greatly help authorities crack down on illegal guns and reduce gun related crimes.
Referring to my above talk of shooting incidents in schools that just flat out should not happen, I realise that someone could run in with a knife, an illegal gun or some other weapon and wound or kill people, but that fact of the matter is that it would be much more difficult to obtain a gun and if a knife or some other weapon was used, casualties would be much lesser because it is frankly a lot easier to stop a knife attacker than a gun attacker (not saying it's easy though).
To finish off, yeah I know that making guns off limits for the general public and reserving them for hunting and sport purposes would not make them and gun related crimes disappear, but it is a step forward to reduce the tragedies that are so easily committed with guns. Imo, authorities (corruptible, I know) should be the only ones with legal possession of firearms in the setting of crimes.
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I just watched the movie Zeitgeist: Addendum and wonder how much truth there is in the concept of the Economic Hitman.
The theory goes that if a country has some form of wealth (Oil, Poppy fields etc) the US will use a 3 stage process to gain access to those resources.
First step is send in the Economic Hitman who's job it is to corrupt the leaders by offering them money. They will try to create debt and use it as leverage to control the countries' leaders into giving up the resources. (UAE would fit this case)
The second step is to send in the CIA jackels to stage a coo of some form. (Panama, Guatamala fits this)
If that does not work the final step a military invasion. (Iraq twice & Afghanistan)
So do you think these arguments carry more truth than being mere conspiracies?
There are some serious accusations being presented in the movie. If you haven't seen it, you should check it out. I havent yet watched the first movie, going to do that soon.
My personal view on US foreign policy is quite negative. I think the US government has blind folded the people of the country for a long time and they are unable to see the pain and suffering they have caused outside of the US. I hope that the people of the country take back control.
EDIT:
Just to make my previous paragraph more specific, I am talking about the US supporting an Israeli appartheid system in Palestine. A real sore point for South Africans.
I just read another article about how the US subpoenaing Twitter to release personal information and communication of users. Some not even US citizens. They did this under a US based law (Patriot Act - intimidating name isn't it) which has no jurisdiction over non US citizens...hmm not cool. link
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watch these documentaries too if you ever get time. Watch all 3 to have a broad understanding.
The obama deception, illuminati and lastly the great global warming swindle.
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I'm from Israel, but have lived in the US for extended periods of time, visited it on vacations repeatedly, totaling over six years.
I think that the two party political system is a decent one. Every system has flaws, but the US generally has a stable political system. My main problem is that the media is more and more controlled by editorial choices rather than clean objective journalism in the past twenty years or so. The rise of CNN, MSNBC and Fox News as the main sources of information is a problem, as all of these have the general flaws of news agencies (focus on the latest source of hysteria instead on objectively important stories, sales oriented editing), but considering they are cable based, this allows for a far greater trend of editorializing and polarizing opinions, as well as some obvious direct financial considerations when running stories. The US political system has relied on the media to keep it honest for many years, and the transition to the newer form of media allows for a more polarized, less objective public, in turn, making the elections more based on money than ever before.
As to the US foreign policy... that's a big one. Generally speaking, the US has a history of exploiting South America and Africa in the financial/private sector, and for a large part, the government backs this (edit: examples are the extremely lucrative weapons sales to countries there, generally helping exploitative dictatorships maintain an iron grip, cheap resource imports for support of corrupt officials, etc). Foreign policy on environmental issues specifically is tainted with financial considerations, something that probably won't change due to the political system relying so heavily on funding from businesses and lobby-based influences.
As to Israel specifically, the US tends to go to extremes (edit: I will stay away from the morality of Israel issue here, despite what other people wrote, this is not what this thread is about). In the 90s, the strong pressure of the US towards a peace solution between Israel and it's neighbors backfired badly - when the talks broke down, things went back nearly to the starting point (leading up to the current situation). Bush had the exact opposite approach, but lack of involvement in a bad situation just caused stagnation (and allowed for a lot of mistakes on both sides). So far, Obama has been very careful on the Israeli front (he has increased pressure for peace talks, and has forced Israel to be more careful, without any radical changes that could have caused an explosion in the already heated relationship between the sides).
As for the rest of the Middle East, the US has been doing a bang up job on with a lot of the countries (Egypt and Saudi Arabia are examples of two countries who have enjoyed the fruits of good relations with the west due to US involvement), but has been a polarizing issue in other cases. Iran specifically uses anti-US sentiment as a rallying point for support. Iraq is a complicated problem - if the country is better off due to US involvement (and the removal of the dictatorial regime there) is a huge question, but in the long term I believe this is a good thing (though it has considerably strengthened Iran in the short term).
Overall, the US is foreign policy is a very good one in theory, but the practice seems to be messy at times. But that's the real world for you. From an ideological standpoint, the US is striving for a capitalist, democratic world, which is a pretty decent goal (not that these are the best systems, just the best in practice from a historic point of view).
The US economic policies are generally a good thing, but the near-religious belief in the free market is a dinosaur in the modern world. The market doesn't balance itself, it just learned to push the failings onto the general public instead of on the companies. Risky mathematical models aimed at high risk, high profit moves used by banks with nearly zero regulation, investment packaging and encapsulation and near-zero government involvement in the important economic decisions were some of the main reasons that the last world-wide financial crisis was caused. The near exact opposite from a capitalist point of view is the carefully regulated Canadian market, one of those hit least from the mentioned crisis. Generally speaking, the US financial system is outdated, and allows the rich to make billions for themselves and have their falls broken on the average joes.
That being said, free trade agreements are a great thing for the world going forward. Naturally, the US has greatly helped the world achieve bustling economies in many places that would have been completely unexpected, something that has helped a lot in the European Union as well. As to the International Monetary Fund, I know too little about the subject to give an educated opinion.
The US constitution is a great thing. I think that constitutional legal and political systems are inherently more stable, allow more careful checks on the executive and legislative branches. It would be a great thing for budding democracies to adopt, but that requires a national and political consensus, something that is nearly impossible to achieve in a developing country.
I think that state laws can be a good thing, but they can do harm to the spirit of the country. A lot of heated issues, such as immigration, environmental laws and the such are a source for a lot of controversy, and are greatly emphasized by state legal systems. There are also a lot of ridiculous laws, legal relics from previous times, and so on which exist more commonly the more localized the law is. While in the short term, perhaps harmful, in the long term, it allows the country to have a good check before significant federal legislation.
As to the CIA and FBI, I have very little knowledge about how they actually work. If any US agency scares me, it is the NSA and their abuse of computerized systems to get around privacy laws. Just saying certain key words might get you on a list for your entire life. A list that you will never know about, never be able to appeal, and may cause a few crudely phrased posts on 4chan of someone to make sure he's always searched when returning from international vacations.
I think the current congress is rather decent, being a good representation of the US public opinion and overall rather competent. Nothing more could be asked. As to Obama's presidency, he's done some great stuff. I believe that universal healthcare, and yes, other such "socialist" ideas, in the long term will help the average person much more than they harm the economy. Combatting poverty is a good thing for the economy of the US in the long run, as even the most extreme anti-regulation and free-market enthusiasts will tell you that consumerism pours money into the economy, and people need money to be consumers. He's been far from perfect, but overall, he's doing a great job of fixing some things that caused a lot of the US's woes of late, and done some good forward-looking moves. He's made some blunders, but these aren't nearly as big as the media makes out (back to the point about editorial issues and polarizing views in the media).
In general, the US is doing OK. It is stuck in some messy situations (Afghanistan), inflames others (anti-western sentiments), but historically does more good than bad, and is doing a decent job at it at the moment.
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On January 17 2011 20:11 stafu wrote:
"Being an American, I'm attached to my country."
hahahahahahahahahah
User was temp banned for this post.
I'll post just to clarify what I mean by that statement. Regardless of whether a national approves of the current state of their government and what the country represents, a national should have some sort of hope that the country can improve. If not, I feel that such a person should strive to move to a country that has that hope of improvement, so that such a person could actually improve the world. This applies to a specific class of educated people, but EVERYBODY in the US with a college high-school education or above (and a lot of people even without such education) should at least be actively thinking and debating about how the US should move forward. The more thought we have on the ground level, (hopefully) the more thought-out and intelligent our policymaking will be. If one latches on to an existing ideology with cookie-cutter reasoning and echoes what people before them say, then one is intellectually dead and literally has nothing to contribute to the country's future, other than a single vote (which doesn't mean much in this day and age).
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1. What do you think of the current state of two-party politics?
I think 2-party politics (Conservative vs Left) is probably the best system. What I don't want is a minority group to have the balance of power in government, which will hinder the progress of the country as nothing will get done.
What I don't like about the US system is the "money talks" form of politics. I read an article about how campaign success is correlated to the size of their budget (from "donations"). How is a candidate able to ignore a sizeable donation?
2. What do you think of US foreign policy?
I generally agree with it except that the US really needs to get more countries (esp Europe) on board with what their doing. Failing that, I believe it's best to not do anything.
3. What do you think of internal US regulatory agencies? (e.g. the SEC, the FDA, the USDA, etc etc etc)
I don't know much about the other agencies but I think the FDA is very corrupt. There is conflict of interest because a lot of the people who sit on the FDA boards are the ones selling pharmaceutical drugs. Alot of these agencies are very money driven.
4. What do you think of US-driven economic policies?
I'm for free trade with limited protection policies. For example, I believe it's justifiable to give some protection to a starter industry, but the level of protection should slowly be removed.
5. What do you think of the US constitution and how it should be interpreted?
I believe the constitution stands for freedom to do whatever you want to do (of course within the limits of the law).
10. What do you think of Obama's presidency?
I'm a right-wing person so I don't really think much about the Democrats. I'm a little worried about his plans to socialize America.
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marcoso
Brazil818 Posts
I apologize in advance for my poor English.
3.
A: I often used FDA and USDA as reference, in adition to Anvisa (the Brazilian respective of FDA) during college. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is also good. As a nutritionist, FDA, USDA and CDC offers so much more tools for us, like charts from the CDC and the USDA Nutrient Data lab (it's very easy to use, but I can't use for diets here because the nutrient content varies a lot from Brazilian food)
edit: after reading Azzur's reply, I'd just like to add the stevia approval incident. You can't be hasty to approve food and or food compounds after what happened with trans fat. In short: FDA accepted a food compound (stevia extract - a zero calorie sweetener) as "generally recognised as safe", but the UCLA have concluded that it is inadequately tested in terms of cancer.
source (there's another link there to the UCLA study) + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, what do you think of Brazilians, Mexicans, Bolivians, Canadians etc calling themselves Americans? As of being born in the Continent America, not as immigrants that love living in the US.
It's not like I hate hearing US natives saying "I'm American". Some people here think you are all arrogants as if saying "America (the continent) is ours". To me it's just very weird, like lawyers, dentists and medics, without a doctorate, calling themselves doctors.
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I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Thanks Tuna, very good idea.
I'm an American, and have for years now been growing increasingly frustrated with my country. Now anyone familiar with my post history here probably regards me as "that crazy liberal bitch", but seriously I really *want* to love my country. I *want* to be proud of my country, but goddamn if it's not hard these days. Anyway...
I'd love to hear about the various gun policies in other nations. Here in the states we have one of the highest firearm-homicide rates in the world, passing many other "first world" countries by a factor of 50. Wtf is it about us that we just can't stop shooting each other?
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2. The foreign policy of the US from what I can tell has very little globally oriented. It shows very little signs of trying to tackle global problems without it favouring its own country in the process. America's tendency to go to war with or without consent from the global community is problematic. America also prides itself on protecting human rights and free speech while in effect the actions made internationally do not often reflect this.
X. Domestically I feel America does not look out for its people. Families and individuals are left to their own devices. Workers rights are not as strong as they could be. There are less safety regulations than in some other countries. Also, if the worker is hurt on the job, the worker will often get fired because he can't do the job anymore and will have to pay for his own treatment. In essence it is a country that works well for those who have gotten to a good start in life and not been forced to take a crappy job.
1. Politically, it seems like voters are left with few choices and in the processing of votes, many votes end up not counting because there were not enough to win a district or state for your side. Is that what democracy is? Every 4 years you take a red pill or a blue pill and then you've had your say? There has to be a better way to do it. And this does not only apply to the US.
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I can see already that a lot of you don't agree on the prompts given. Care to debate each other? :D
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Nothing, guys? And I had such high hopes too..
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Answers
1. What do you think of the current state of two-party politics?
In a word, awful.
The Republicans are all seemingly mad and uncooperative, and the democrats where too lilly livered to get anything done when they had a chance.
2. What do you think of US foreign policy?
Also not great, although, there is a neo-con legacy that hangs over it, its improved a little, but I did not agree with the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan.
2a. With regards to the Middle East?
See above basically, but I can't help but feel that the policy is driven ultimately by deep concerns not to upset Jewish voters, and while I don't go out of my way to throw my lot in with one side in the middle east, I think that everyone in the region behaves like complete idiots on a regular basis.
2b. South America?
The war on drugs isn't super effective, a better solution is needed, but I'm not in a position to offer one, but sticking our fingers in ears and pretending that everything is going fine is delusional.
in addition, historically what the US has done in SA, the invasion of panama etc hasn't be to the best of tastes.
2c. Africa?
I haven't really heard anything of late regarding American policies on Africa, the only thing which is remotely related is uganda's kill the gays bill.
2d. Region of your choice Europe, of course
We are the slightly socialist, awkward, but friendly cousins.
5. What do you think of the US constitution and how it should be interpreted?
In some ways, I kinda like it, the first amendment is shining example of something pretty good, however, the second amendment isn't to my taste. the problem with interpretation is a problem of absolute and relative ethics, I think that the constitution is certainly a living document, but any us of it has to be very careful.
5a. Do you think a US-style constitution should be adopted by other countries, in the way that the US has pressured some developing countries?
I think that adopting a governmental system that has come from a external source is the wrong way to go about it, a system of governmental ethics has to come from within based on the desire of the people.
6. What do you think the balance of federal power vs state power? What are the implications of stronger states' rights vs stronger federal rights?
Looking back historically, stronger state power has been a force for malevolence, jim crow laws etc, and I would hate for gay marriage to banned in more states with the federal government unable to repeal it, however I'm aware that the fed could be in the same position, so I'm in 2 minds as to which is better.
10. What do you think of Obama's presidency?
Really quite disappointed. he has started to deliver on some of his promises, DADT eg, but for other things he hasn't been firm enough, trying to get the republicans to work with him, when the repub's seem content to shit over everything with misinformation and stalling tactics.
Perhaps a highlight of my disappointment was the deepwater horizon, Obama should have come down on BP and the short cuts they made, on fad allen and others like a ton of fucking bricks.
It was a great opportunity for Obama to show that he gives a damn, that he is a champion in times of crisis, but he pussy footed around while BP organised their cover up, I mean, the cover up of their clean up operation.
Bush and governmental neglect left New Orleans a mess after Katrina for far too much time, Obama and the collection of idiots that call themselves BP left the gulf of Mexico in a mess that will be hanging around a while.
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On January 17 2011 23:23 Haemonculus wrote:
I'm really enjoying reading this thread. Thanks Tuna, very good idea.
I'm an American, and have for years now been growing increasingly frustrated with my country. Now anyone familiar with my post history here probably regards me as "that crazy liberal bitch", but seriously I really *want* to love my country. I *want* to be proud of my country, but goddamn if it's not hard these days. Anyway...
I'd love to hear about the various gun policies in other nations. Here in the states we have one of the highest firearm-homicide rates in the world, passing many other "first world" countries by a factor of 50. Wtf is it about us that we just can't stop shooting each other?
As per Tuna's request for some discussion:
With the second amendment, I've kinda come to the conclusion that while I think that its a terrible idea, if the US wants it, it has to stop glorifying guns, they are there there to defend the consituation, not to be a replacement phallus.
in addition, you saying "I want to be proud of my country" reminds of something M. Obama said a while back which was "for the first time, I'm proud of my country" and then alot of people attacked her, saying "why haven't you been proud of your country before?!?"
The notion of American exceptionalism is silly, the idea that the USA is just some how better makes no sense to me at all.
Any nation that strives to be a nice place to be has to struggle, there is no free ride, and if any nation is to be exceptional, it because of the efforts of its people and systems every day to make it exceptional, not the other way round.
So being proud of your country, just to be proud of your country, isn't really being proud at all, I'm certainly happy with some of the things my country has done, the NHS for example, but I'm certainly not proud of some of the things that we have done and some of the things we continue to do. (The war in Iraq, our colonial history, our racism, the fact that we still don't have gay marriage)
To me, being proud of something implies contentment, and I'm certainly not content.
On January 17 2011 20:17 eu.exodus wrote:
i was shocked a few weeks ago when i watched a documentary film, about healthcare in the U.S.
I saw a by far superior technologically advanced healthcare system that had something to offer only to the rich and people with a good health insurance.
I saw people being refused treatment and thrown out of hospital, dazed and confused in the middle of nowhere in nothing but a hospital gown.
I saw people in pain sailing to cuba to become american refugees in a foreign land to receive decent healthcare for free.
I saw a country who refused volenteer workers at the countries biggest catastrophes who spent countless hours recuing and finding bodies, be refused any kind of help medically or financially.
I see a country whos war heroes are exalted and its poor and suffering rejected. A country whos billion dollar wars which cause death abroad have preference over saving their own people.
I see a first world superpower with 3rd world tendencies.
I see cover ups and intentional bending of the truth. All the while many american civilians oblivious to certain facts that change so much in so many places.
I see a country whos citizens are wonderful people and high moral standards, suppressed by a government that is profit orientated, and doesnt really care how many people have to die to get it.
I feel america needs a true leader like jfk. Who cares about the american dream and not about profit.
Health care in the US has always bothered me.
To me, health care simply cannot be run for profit, its a massive conflict of interest.
I was hugely offended when Rudy giulani game to this country, and said that his chances of surviving his cancer in the US was significantly highly than the UK.
Not to mention that his stats where wrong, more importantly my chance of surviving cancer in the US would be close to zero, since I'm not MR money bags Giuliani, and I will most likely never be able to afford private treatment.
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EPT
