On October 30 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote:DoctorHelvetica's Candidacy: Orgoloves "reality"Just step back, and take a look. Forget all personal feelings, and just look at the facts.
We are trying to vote for a mayor of the town. The chosen will:
- Kill one person of his choice immediately at the end of the first day
- have increased voting power for each subsequent lynches
- near invincibility to night kills thanks to the presence of bodyguards
Night kill invincibility is not a huge concern for a mafia, the first two powers are the ones we are really concerned with. Invincibility to night kills, however, is something the mafia really worry about since having a townie it in it, much less a mostly confirmed one is a disaster. For them.It is not a decision to be made lightly. If we select a mafia into the position, it would be a disaster of cosmic proportions. Conversely, if we select an important blue into the position, the town will be much closer to victory.
It is hardly a disaster to elect mafia in this game. In fact there are multiple scenarios in which it could benefit the town. This isn't a point I'm trying to make against you. The true power of a mafia mayor comes not from the day 1 lynch (a mafia mayor is most likely to choose the candidate the town wants to avoid pressure/disagreement that could paint him red), but from the increased voting power at the end of the game. Mafia can control bandwagons easier and achieve LYLO faster. 2 increased voting power is an effective mafia increase of 1. A mafia mayor invites role checks and will probably be inducted into the town circle, an immense amount of pressure is placed on him.
When Artanis announced that rolechecks reveal alignment even of the mayor I figured someone would drop out of the race and that person would be a nervous mafia afraid of the pressure. Since that hasn't happened I can only assume that the mafia is a very experienced/ballsy candidate (I admit I fit this bill) or someone who is losing in the polls anyway and is just going to stay in for fear of suspicion.DrH's candidacy hinges on two points.
- His claim that his role is extremely important - so much so that his role deserves the extra protection afforded to the mayor.
I would say that yes, my role is very useful and that protection can help me perform critical coordination of blues. I can constantly confirm my role to people throughout the game (Not just Day 1) and there are various ways I have shown it can be proven if, say, my poke actually infects somebody or not, both of which are concerns of the town.
It has also been demonstrated by me that if my confirmations are made up, I would have to consistently out scumbuddies. This is a scenario where me as a mafia mayor benefits town immensely in the late game.
- His claim that he is not a red, and that he will roleclaim without a shadow of doubt after the first day.
Well not being a red is definitely important and I will use my confirmation power every night unless it is proven to be an insane role that infects people with M-Rus
To support his first point, he revealed that his role is "Mr Sticky," a role that allows him to "poke" someone as his night action. If his claim is correct, he will then know if the target has Murrayitis.
Not Mr Sticky, but yes this is true. To make the mechanics as clear as possible.
I poke someone at night. If the person DOES NOT have murrayitis they receive a poke and are told "You have been poked by DoctorHelvetica"
If the person DOES have murrayitis they receive no message and I know they have murrayitis.On October 30 2010 13:43 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 13:40 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:31 bumatlarge wrote:
I think it's safe to say you are claiming plague doctor, and the person you protect gets notified that you did this? That could be convenient. I do find it possible that mafia could have there own plague doctor, but Im not here to speculate that. If you use your power on me, and I can add you, we can start a circle. To verify it, you would give me one bodyguard who I would relay all of the information I learn. A medic can protect me if they wish, without fearing M-rus. If there is another plague doctor besides Dr.H (if that is what you are) Id suggst picking fishball, who has stated he has means to a circle and a role. That way another medic can choose between myself and fishball to protect. Whats really important is that the medics are safe in this from the M-rus, and if fishball or I die from a lucky shot by mafia, then oh well, fishball or myself die.
Is this plausible Dr. H? If so, then you have my vote.
DrH is NOT claiming Plague Doctor. He says that he can tell if someone has the plague but he cannot confer immunity.
His other apparent ability is to have Artanis PM a player with confirmation that DrH is who he says he is.
I'm still not sure why that would be related to Sticky.
sticky is a stick
I poke people with a stick and they are told if I poked them or not. If the poke is unsuccessful than I know that person has m-rus or that I was roleblocked if there is a roleblocker.
Remember the mechanic of Murrayitis:
On October 29 2010 07:44 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Murrayitis Mechanics. The amount of people infected with Murrayitis is posted at the start of the day. Murrayitis is transferred if a carrier is visited, or visits someone during the night. Doctors can cure someone from Murrayitis. While Plague Doctors can cure and transfer immunity to someone with Murrayitis. If over half of the Game has Murrayitis, every carrier of Murrayitis dies.
So let me reiterate. According to his own descriptions, DrH can check ONE person a night to see if he has Murrayitis.
Murrayitis isn't a disease that kills immediately. Rather than acting on a timer, it requires the mafia to go through and infect more than half the town.
If the mafia managed to infect over 20 townies, then the game's probably already over.
You decide - is the ability to check what is essentially second priority on ONE person ONE night, in a 40 person game,
so important that it requires the protection afforded to a mayor?
Next, to support his second point, he continued from his roleclaim and declared that by "poking" someone the first night and having the target confirm the event, he will definitely be shown as a blue.
Considering the number of unknowns in this game, there are so many potential traps in here that we can't possibly trust this. And apparently I'm not the only one to pick up on it. Just to name a few:
On October 30 2010 13:12 kingjames01 wrote:
Everyone, consider this scenario. The mafia share the names and abilities of their individual roles with the group. DrH claims the name and abilities of one of his mafia teammates, ie. "Sticky". He gets elected mayor during the day and then at night, he gets elected Godfather. As Godfather, he chooses to appear as "Sticky" to any detective checks. At night, the real "Sticky" does whatever "Stickies" are supposed to do. When day breaks, DrH claims responsibility so we start to believe him more. We go along with his scheming and then we lose.
Just to remind everyone, this is an impossibility. Since my poke goes through under my name, it is my ability.
On October 30 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Just thought of another way DrH might fake the role:
Suppose his claim about the poking is correct, including that the poked knows DrH did the poking. But say DrH were a mafia and the 1 person infected with Murrayitis. This "poke" could be the method by which he transfers Murrayitis... and the person poked would still confirm that DrH poked him, thus establishing credibility. The plague doctors would immunize the people DrH tells them to, possibly including any reds that end up infected.
The easy way to confirm is this is for plague doctors to check the people I poke and see if they turn out infected.This possibility has me extremely paranoid
if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
On October 30 2010 13:31 kingjames01 wrote:I just want to point out that Sticky is the name of the stick that Bill Murray used to defend himself when the mafia took him out in Mafia XXXI. I don't think that is a coincidence since a major theme of this game is Bill Murray.
On October 13 2010 13:02 BrownBear wrote:Night 3
It was a dark and stormy night. The survivors huddled in the ruins of their houses, shivering, makeshift weapons pointed at the doors. Bill Murray had found a pointy stick. It was his favorite pointy stick. He had named it Sticky. Thunder crashed in the distance as he shivered in his bed, Sticky pointed directly at the door, pointy end first.
The door creaked open. Bill Murray leaped up and screamed "PROTECT ME, STICKY!!!", then charged at the door, Sticky first.Bill Murray the
Miller is now dead.
Anybody have any ideas how this is related to DrH's role? Maybe if we can figure that out we can confirm/deny DrH's claims.
I seriously doubt there are clues in a previous games clueless day post to the true nature of my role. While it is obvious my role is inspired by this post, I think the most likely scenario is the one where Artanis was truthful in his role description. All possibilities must be considered, but we could have fun doing this to anybody and it doesn't really make me look bad, it just adds an extra degree of uncertainty. On October 30 2010 13:55 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Just thought of another way DrH might fake the role:
Suppose his claim about the poking is correct, including that the poked knows DrH did the poking. But say DrH were a mafia and the 1 person infected with Murrayitis. This "poke" could be the method by which he transfers Murrayitis... and the person poked would still confirm that DrH poked him, thus establishing credibility. The plague doctors would immunize the people DrH tells them to, possibly including any reds that end up infected.
This possibility has me extremely paranoid
if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
DAMN. That's so true. I was so excited to figure out the connection that I forgot to stay suspicious.
IF Bill Murry died while using Sticky, then it's VERY LIKELY that Sticky is infected with Murrayitis. If Sticky pokes someone that would pass it on... VERY LIKELY? That's a bit of a stretch. I don't think we should be making conclusions about someones role, that supercede their role PM and description, based on metagaming and individual interpretations of the storyline of a previous game. Does this really seem like the sound and solid reasoning that helps the town? Is this the sort of logic that will "destroy my platform"? I'm sorry but this is absolutely absurd and I'm calling it out. Then DrH pretends to be notified.
On October 30 2010 14:05 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 13:55 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Just thought of another way DrH might fake the role:
Suppose his claim about the poking is correct, including that the poked knows DrH did the poking. But say DrH were a mafia and the 1 person infected with Murrayitis. This "poke" could be the method by which he transfers Murrayitis... and the person poked would still confirm that DrH poked him, thus establishing credibility. The plague doctors would immunize the people DrH tells them to, possibly including any reds that end up infected.
This possibility has me extremely paranoid
if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
DAMN. That's so true. I was so excited to figure out the connection that I forgot to stay suspicious.
IF Bill Murry died while using Sticky, then it's VERY LIKELY that Sticky is infected with Murrayitis. If Sticky pokes someone that would pass it on... Then DrH pretends to be notified.
You're speculating on mod logic based on the storyline of a past game
pretty far out there if you ask me. this is getting way too meta.
I disagree. Your role is "Sticky". You admitted that yourself. It cannot be denied that the theme of the game revolves around Bill Murray. My logic isn't based on the storyline of a past game. It's based on finding connections around the theme:
- Bill Murray died in Haunted Mafia giving rise to Murrayitis
- Bill Murray died in Mafia XXXI holding a sticky named Sticky
- There is an actual role called "Sticky"
- Sticky's ability involves poking people
And the storyline of my role is that with Bill Murray's death I was given new life and immunity to his disease. This is a very basic interpretation and it appears to be the one of Artanis, who is, by the way, the mod of this game. Not you. Your entirely subjective speculation about what my name could or couldn't mean in the vague context of a previous game is utterly USELESS especially given the fact that the possibility of myself being a plaguebearer can be checked. Not to mention the fact that it is impossible for me to currently be infected with M-Rus since the day post says NO ONE IS INFECTED WITH M-RUS.
Did we forget that? Currently, no one is a plaguebearer. This makes me think the role that spreads the disease is something like a mad scientist type role. He isn't infected per se, but has the ability to infect others. This is speculation on my part, but for now the safest assumption is that no one has M-Rus.
To jump from not really knowing anything about it to accusing me of being the M-Rus spreader when my role seems to be designed to everything but it, I have told a few ways in which this can be counteracted, I have offered my life to the town and the lives of those I confirm to in the case that I die and flip mafia, AND the fact that all of this speculation is based on "what if" dream scenarios and previous storylines I think it's safe to say that it is a pretty far out accusation. At best.On October 29 2010 06:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Day 1
Rise and Shine! It is now Day 1! And no one is infected by Murrayitis... Yet.
If no one has Murrayitis yet, then no PERSON has Murrayitis yet.
However, a Sticky might. That Sticky is you.
You put the word PERSON in there yourself. You inserted that. That's not what Artanis said. That SCREAAAAAAAAAMS wordplay trickery to me.
If Artanis says no one is infect by M-Rus, why can't that mean no one is infected by M-Rus. So because no one is infected by M-Rus, I'm infected by M-Rus? Ridiculous. What should he have said? "No one and a stick has M-Rus yet?" This is baseless bullshit designed to make me look bad. That's all that is. This is garbage. On October 30 2010 14:27 infinitestory wrote:On October 30 2010 14:21 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 14:20 Coagulation wrote:On October 30 2010 14:05 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 13:55 kingjames01 wrote:On October 30 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Just thought of another way DrH might fake the role:
Suppose his claim about the poking is correct, including that the poked knows DrH did the poking. But say DrH were a mafia and the 1 person infected with Murrayitis. This "poke" could be the method by which he transfers Murrayitis... and the person poked would still confirm that DrH poked him, thus establishing credibility. The plague doctors would immunize the people DrH tells them to, possibly including any reds that end up infected.
This possibility has me extremely paranoid
if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
DAMN. That's so true. I was so excited to figure out the connection that I forgot to stay suspicious.
IF Bill Murry died while using Sticky, then it's VERY LIKELY that Sticky is infected with Murrayitis. If Sticky pokes someone that would pass it on... Then DrH pretends to be notified.
You're speculating on mod logic based on the storyline of a past game
pretty far out there if you ask me. this is getting way too meta.
I disagree. Your role is "Sticky". You admitted that yourself. It cannot be denied that the theme of the game revolves around Bill Murray. My logic isn't based on the storyline of a past game. It's based on finding connections around the theme:
- Bill Murray died in Haunted Mafia giving rise to Murrayitis
- Bill Murray died in Mafia XXXI holding a sticky named Sticky
- There is an actual role called "Sticky"
- Sticky's ability involves poking people
On October 29 2010 06:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Day 1
Rise and Shine! It is now Day 1! And no one is infected by Murrayitis... Yet.
If no one has Murrayitis yet, then no PERSON has Murrayitis yet. However, a Sticky might. That Sticky is you.
the plot thickens.
however i cant help but notice that he revealed his role honestly ( as far as we know it was pretty much confirmed by the fact that we found a logical link to it in another game that fits perfectly?)
then there is still the chance hes mafia sticky.
but I cant see a scum willingly giving up this kind of info like that.
I hate the way drH plays but his story is starting to come together. i still worry that he is too fucking good at this game to chance him possibly gaining such an advantage as a red.
again why would mafia have a sticky, a role clearly designed to stop the spread of m-rus, a disease that benefits mafia
Even assuming what you've told us is the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, there's an advantage in rallying the plague doctors to cure infected reds. I want to see something more well thought out, please~
This is true. I suppose if I were infected my reds only to have them immunized this would be an advantageous play if it weren't for the fact that I'd have to publicly out them and the pattern would be clear pretty quickly, leading to a swift kill of the entire mafia.
The issue with me being mafia is that no matter what happens I've put myself in a position where I must reveal my team to you over the course of the game while being put in a negligible position of power. This is not a rational mafia play which, all things considered, is pretty easy to see.@Meapak_Ziphh: I'm not considering whether "sticky" represents a m-itis infector or a m-itis stopper. I'm just presenting a possible scenario which, if nobody finds a way around it, compromises DrH's claim of 100% guaranteed proof of townieness. It doesn't bank on meta at all.
Nothing is 100% in this game aside from whatever it is somebody flips at death. Unless there is a good neighbor type role, I still feel I have done the most to confirm myself to you guys as being pro-town. It's too bad the mafia have come out to smear me. On October 30 2010 14:44 Ace wrote:That doesn't confirm your alignment though
On October 30 2010 14:59 orgolove wrote:-_-
On October 30 2010 14:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 13:51 infinitestory wrote:Just thought of another way DrH might fake the role:
Suppose his claim about the poking is correct, including that the poked knows DrH did the poking. But say DrH were a mafia and the 1 person infected with Murrayitis. This "poke" could be the method by which he transfers Murrayitis... and the person poked would still confirm that DrH poked him, thus establishing credibility. The plague doctors would immunize the people DrH tells them to, possibly including any reds that end up infected.
This possibility has me extremely paranoid
if only because it gives the reds such a gigantic advantage. The only ways I can think of to beat this scenario are very WIFOM.
here is my solution:
if plague doctors visit the people I poke, then the numbers of murrayitis won't rise assuming that I am the one transferring murrayitis (a scenario which i would call extremely unlikely)
I can prove I'm townie because mafia don't know who I will confirm to. They thus can't infect that person reliably and it will become evident very soon that the people I'm poking do not have murrayitis.
If they infect that person that night they would do so to trick plague doctors. If we discover this is their pattern of infection then there will never be a spread of infections because plague doctors just visit the people I poke.
this forces mafia to infect other people, which means I'll be confirmed. it is a bigger loss to them to infect nobody than it is to let me get off confirmed as town so I think it'll work out.
does that make sense?
And no, that won't work. In a game where we don't know how many plaguebearers there are, if the mafia ever has their own plague doctors, then the numbers can remain the same while the mafia "heals" one of their previous disease hits.
I suppose there are an infinite number of scenarios in a game where we don't know somebodies role. I don't think endless hypothetical situations are really a point against me, but this is a good point.
The thing is, we know exactly how many plague-bearers there are at the beginning of each day. Again in this situation, I still have to out members of my team with my confirmation power and I've again made a terrible play for the mafia. If the mafia have plague doctors, then it is unlikely that mafia are the source of infection. I would say impossible. They would merely infect themselves and then immunize themselves and watch M-Rus take over the town and win the game. This is a bullshit scenario.
Thus, not only is his ability, if true, unworthy of mayoral protection, we won't even be sure that he can reveal himself as a townie beyond doubt.I close this with one last thing I place under your consideration. The Town Mayor is a position of leadership. Both with his ability to immediately lynch 1 player, as well as his increased number of votes in the daily lynches, the mayor has a responsibility to take charge of the town and be a levelheaded leader who will not be guided by emotion.
If we do get an experienced, well-intentioned and collected leader
However, DoctorHelvetica has been increasingly emotional and defensive as questions against his alignment mounted.
Because you hurt my feelings by calling me a liar when you couldn't back it up and insulting me for modding a game which I put a lot of work and my life into and that despite the mistakes I feel proud of. I think anyone could understand why that would upset me.On October 30 2010 14:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
you like to paint me as a liar whenever you can based on posts you don't even have the reading comprehension to understand
On October 30 2010 15:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
fair enough. I'm not the one starting the WIFOM bullshit.
On October 30 2010 14:33 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
watch the mafia keep grasping at straws to try to make me look bad and red when I've done more to show i'm town than anyone in this game
and then they want to vote for pandain lololol
DrH could not keep his cool when people merely
questioned him during his candidacy. Can we truly trust him to lead the town as a mayor, unaffected by his personal bias?
You merely questioned me? I like how you point out some of the things I said to you (which you never properly defended or refuted, because you can't) and then put it all in a big nice post of bullshit to make me look bad. This is called a chainsaw defense. Defending yourself by attacking your offender.
Why don't I point out the specific parts where you called me a liar based on misunderstandings and then ducked out of the spotlight? Because I'd like to get specific with my criticism, it'd be nice if you could too.On October 30 2010 14:16 orgolove wrote:
lol, awesome find haha. Now we have second evidence of DoctorHelvetica "Embellishing the Truth" aka lying.
How could you not reveal the *slightly* important fact that whoever you do your night action on will be infected with Murrayitis?
Anything else you're hiding, mr Sticky?
Disproved this immediately. You never responded. However note that as soon as you thought I had messed up (because you didn't read the thread properly) you were extremely quick not only to call me "out" on it, but to rub a little dirt in my face and try to make me look as shitty as possible. This is not the post of someone who is interested in finding out the truth, this is the post of someone who wants to make me look like a liar whenever he can. It's all in the word choice.
Here is his response. Note how he responds carefully.On October 30 2010 14:28 orgolove wrote:On October 30 2010 14:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 14:16 orgolove wrote:
lol, awesome find haha. Now we have second evidence of DoctorHelvetica "Embellishing the Truth" aka lying.
How could you not reveal the *slightly* important fact that whoever you do your night action on will be infected with Murrayitis?
Anything else you're hiding, mr Sticky?
In the words of Antoine Dodson
"You are so dumb. You are really dumb. For real."
kingjames and infinitestory are merely speculating on the fact that my poke could infect them. however in my talks with artanis it is pretty clear the point of my role is to a. confirm my role to others and to b. tell who does and doesn't have murrayitis
i was never told that i infect people with murrayitis and my understanding is that my role is designed to fight its spread
you like to paint me as a liar whenever you can based on posts you don't even have the reading comprehension to understand
obviously mafia would be shitting their pants at the idea of electing me. it's suspicious to say the least.
Anyone who was even
remotely invested in the Haunted Mafia game would be horrified at the prospect of letting you become the Mayor after the way you completely screwed up the game in the final days. Gj killing one of the last 3 mafia, letting the vamps just stroll to victory -_-
I have no interest in allowing someone who screws up in that magnitude in a job as the town mayor.
Besides, if truly that's all you can do, I can hardly think the ability to check ONE player a day for a disease which doesn't even kill unless it's extensively spread to be the "SUPER IMPORTANT" role that you claimed as your role.
Further, there is no way we will be able to confirm that your stick doesn't infect people - As kingjames has mentioned, if your stick is "dirty," you can simply claim whoever you infected the first night to have "turned up as infected" in your "check". Then you can just let the other blues check on him, further confirming your "innoc
Part 1: insult me
2: discredit my role
3: try to discredit me based on a hypothetical and no real reason or logic
Well, as though that weren't enough this isn't the first time he tried to make me look like a liar and it was AGAIN based on a misunderstanding.On October 30 2010 10:02 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 09:54 orgolove wrote:On October 30 2010 09:51 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On October 30 2010 09:47 orgolove wrote:On October 30 2010 09:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On October 30 2010 09:36 orgolove wrote:On October 30 2010 09:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On October 30 2010 09:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
[quote]
Artanis said something like the mayor will return the role "Mayor" if rolechecked. I'd like it if he confirmed this.
The mayor will show up as the role he has next to being Mayor, unless tampered with by outside sources which may or may not be in the game. I also do not recall ever having made such a statement. It'll do you well to not to
blatantly lie about rules that can be easily clarified by a single PM for the coming game -_-
I really do not know where I supposedly lied regarding this. If you could quote that message I can apologize for it, but I am currently unaware of it. Sorry, that was directed to DrH, not you.
If you could do the same and point out where I lied that would be great thanks
On October 30 2010 09:27 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Artanis said something like the mayor will return the role "Mayor" if rolechecked. I'd like it if he confirmed this.
On October 30 2010 09:29 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
The mayor will show up as the role he has next to being Mayor, unless tampered with by outside sources which may or may not be in the game. I also do not recall ever having made such a statement.
I can't trust someone who's so "free" with his supposed" facts."
You're bad
He said that after I posted and asked him to confirm it. Why would I "lie" and then ask the mod to confirm my lie as being false immediately afterward. I even went as far as to qualify what I was saying.
I remembered wrong. Good thing I had the good sense to ask artanis to confirm it and qualify my statement before I tried to pass it off as a fact huh?
That's about all I have to say. You want to criticize me based on past games and say I can't be trusted? How about the time where you took it upon yourself to organize a huge spreadsheet of "facts" that were half wrong? Or the part where you called me out on mistakes that I didn't even make.
Or the two times in this thread you called me out on lies I never told.
Or the times all of your "great accusations" were nonsense. Overreaction? No, I'm not overreacting. I smell bullshit and I'm calling it out. 
EPT
