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I just came back from reading On Waxen Wings. It's a bit old, but I read it just now.
The article hit me where it mattered, and completely made sense of why I felt like something has significantly changed in the past couple years with the pro scene.
I rarely play a game of Starcraft these days and I certainly have never been a progamer, so others could likely more easily pinpoint the changes and innovations that have led to this decrease in variation. These changes will have the common feature of increasing precision, regularity and standardization of play. The mental edge will forever be an immensely important factor, but players and coaches have found ways of removing many of the other edges truly excellent players once enjoyed. Players practice various builds hours on end, perfecting their execution. Timings are refined to what seems like millisecond accuracy. Builds are subtly altered before matches to specifically counter their opponents. It can now truly be said that professional gamers no longer ‘play’, but compete.
Jaedong’s play historically, and more recently Flash’s play, embodies this philosophy. In the past, players succeeded on the strength of their own play. Flash succeeds by nullifying the advantages of his opponents. His timings are near perfect, units are brought to exploit the finest of timing windows. His builds are exemplary, subtly different each game to foil the style of his latest victim. In fact, his entire play style is honed to counter critical aspects of his opponents play. Zerg regularly find themselves denied their third gas, while Terran opponents are constantly out positioned. Jaedong’s ZvP is much the same; his Protoss opponents find themselves foiled at every turn.
The older players relied on their strengths to gain victory. The newer players simply strip away any strength or advantage an opponent may get. Older players battled with one style of play against another. Newer players focus more on countering what play an opponent may go for.
This isn't to say that newer players haven't won games by relying on their strength. No one can doubt the greatness of Jaedong's muta micro or the sheer force of Flash's macro. And don't get me wrong, there is a respect that I must hold for these players for being able to play the game as well as they do, but the game simply isn't the same.
There is one line in particular I read to myself a few times over.
It can now truly be said that professional gamers no longer ‘play’, but compete.
For some reason this struck something in me. A few thoughts ran through my head. "Is that right? Doesn't that ruin the purpose of the game? Do progamers even really have any fun playing anymore? Or does the joy come solely from the victories?"
The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized that this is what it, inevitably, becomes. Less play, more perfection. That's how you win. And in a proscene like SC, winning is the most important thing a player can do. They have teammates that rely on them, fans to please, and self-profit to reach for (as they don't really get much just by playing anyway). And I don't really know if it's a good or bad thing; it just is.
How does this change anything for me, personally? There are two things that change.
The first thing that changed is my love of the proscene. Back in the days of BoxeR, Nal_rA, YellOw, Reach, and iloveoov, the proscene was a place of magnificent wonder and excitement. Maybe it had to do with the fact that I was new to the game at the time, or that the scene itself was relatively young too, but I'm sure some of you understand that there was, indeed, a different kind of scene. And we know for a fact that the feeling the scene once had can't return; the game has changed completely. Admittedly, I hardly keep up with the proscene anymore. I don't have to keep up with it to know that Flash is dominating and Jaedong fluctuates between spot 2 and 3, primarily staying in 2.
The second change is more of a question and realization. What does this shift mean to me?
It was obvious, people were dedicated to getting better at this game. They worked on their timing until it was perfection. They worked toward learning each map, distinguishing between which builds worked best and which didn't. They learned the best build orders. They learned how to counter those very build orders with different build orders. But I wasn't really doing much of that at all.
Each game we played felt stale; I wasn't playing a person, I was playing a robot. Every attack, every expansion, every upgrade, every harass was cold and calculated. People weren't playing anymore, they were just emulating.
BW became less fun for a while, simply because of the competitive nature that inevitably took form. Even in the lowest levels of play, if you weren't trying to play like pros, you were "playing it wrong." Anything other than mimicking the styles and build orders of the best gameplay at the time was considered being a noob and a waste of time.
But was it really? Had we really already figured out everything BW had to offer us?
With SC2 coming out in July, we find ourselves a brand new game; a game that hasn't been figured out yet. But it will, in time. It has to. As long as there are those who play only to win, the game will get figured out. Is this a bad thing? It really depends on how you look at it. There's not really a right answer to this sort of thing. The only thing I can assume is that by the time SC2 has been figured out, SC3 will be around the corner.
The main point about all of this is that I don't think I want to be someone like that. I don't want to just compete, I want to play. I want to make builds and try strategies specific to my own forms of thinking, developing, changing over time, and pitting them against my opponents. I'm not in it just to win; there's so much more to a game like this. But how long can it last? And do I have to sacrifice my status as a decent player in order to keep 'playing' the game? Or will I simply continue to fall in skill level to the general public once the game becomes more and more figured out? Do I care all that much anyway?
So what about you guys? Originally, I wanted to be able to become something of a formidable player: Adept in the understanding of how the game works coupled with the ability to provide an interesting and ever-changing style of play for my opponents. But if this feat become unachievable in time, do I go along and reshape my gameplay to fit that of the professionals in order to keep up? or do I just continue as I always have, and continue falling behind?
All I know is, I don't ever want to stop 'playing' this game.
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First of all let me start by saying I agree pretty much completely with your sentiment.
I wouldn't despair though... unless you are planning on becoming a Jaedong/Flash-caliber progamer, I think you can easily still have fun "playing" the game. When I play SC1 with friends, even though we all know the timings and what we *should* be doing, we have fun with our imperfections- unlike a progamer, our measly 100-ish APM is not nearly enough to keep up with the builds we try to use, and the mistakes we make are what lets it still be fun and playful.
EDIT- it's also a problem with any competitive thing. You start because you love the game, you get to the point where the only enjoyment is from winning. Lots of professional athletes get "burnt out", and I suppose gamers and the games themselves do too.
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Yeah, I mean I'm not really in despair or anything because I think at this point I've come to realize that having fun with the game is probably the smartest thing I can be doing for myself.
A similar incident occurred with my dance career. I've been dancing (mainly styles of popping, waving, etc) for a few years now, and I picked it up because it was super fun. The more you get into the scene, the more you realize how critical the people are about perfect every asset of the dance that you can.
Eventually I came to realize that I wasn't even having fun anymore. This past year I officially quit competitive and performance dancing and I only do it for fun now. It's pretty great. Even with the imperfections I know exist, it's just nice to get back to the real reason why I started dancing in the first place. Sure I'll improve something here and there, but it's never going to become the focus of what I do again.
Edit: I suppose if SC2 takes on a similar sequence of events for me personally, I may end up becoming part of the "bnet noob" bunch who don't focus on playing like the top players do now.
But we'll have to see. I may even have a change of heart and decide that I would really enjoy honing my skills in order to play well. I might actually start finding winning because of my ability to execute more fun or important than simply playing off the top of my head. Who knows.
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can u? can u possibly play something for 10 odd years and just play and not compete? Doubt that.
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On May 12 2010 15:06 Sfydjklm wrote: can u? can u possibly play something for 10 odd years and just play and not compete? Doubt that.
I think competition is a natural product of gaming. I'm just trying to differentiate for myself the different kinds of competitive play, and which I plan to execute.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
I'm playing BW for fun. I don't compete much (only once in a while on ICCup). I watch for enjoyment, and play fun games with friends.
Yes sir, you can still play the game. Enjoy it! The switch to SCII will come with time, but for me it will not be for a long while.
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It's one of the reasons why I love Forgg and Fantasy so much. And Firebathero. They have the tendency to do cute shit that may lose them the game, but in the end it always turns out to be epic as hell (and more recently, Hiya vs Free)
For me, I play to improve my mechanics so I can do that kind of cute shit and still win. Like 8 firebat drop on Protoss, or whatnot, it's really fun to do these stuff. Or going M&M against Protoss for that matter.
Maybe go for a 2 shuttle - 4 reaver drop off 2 base.
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As an esport, this evolution into what you call 'competing' is a good thing. Watching Flash play is jaw-dropping in the depth of strategy, control and management he displays compared to gimmicky micro tricks from early BW. It's a sport not a game, hence why people don't just 'play' anymore and why spectators still enjoy watching. Going back to watch old school 1 base games is so painful compared to the current era.
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Broodwar. It is a timeless game to me. It's like chess - I'll never stop playing it.
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Sometimes entertaining starcraft is played, like the recent HiyA vs free game. That game was absolute dope
But usually it's all standard play which is no fun to watch, i will still follow Brood War a bit after SC2 release as Starcraft 1 is more entertaining to watch in my opinion >_<
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On May 12 2010 15:33 m4gdelen4 wrote: Broodwar. It is a timeless game to me. It's like chess - I'll never stop playing it.
Wait... what does this have to do with this blog post again? Hahaha.
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A similar development is also seen in holdem poker. Back in the day with the likes of Harrington en Helmuth, limping was considered a "ok" play in many situations, it was dependant on your "style" of play. Nowdays the top in holdem doesn't have this distinguished style. Differences in play are more subtle (more aggressive, more passive etc.) and the core of the game of every good holdem player is very similar.
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Um sorry dude but based on what you've said, I'm afraid you are suffering from nostalgia syndrome. It wasn't as great as you implied it to be. Just go look at some of the games, then look at games by the current top people, and tell me there is a "play" in one of them but not the other. If nothing else, the old games were horrible to watch until about 2006/2007, but even then they just don't quite match up.
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On May 13 2010 02:56 EtherealDeath wrote: Um sorry dude but based on what you've said, I'm afraid you are suffering from nostalgia syndrome.
Thank god someone noticed this.
Watch the Boxer Vs some zerg OSL , I think it was 2001.
The games by and large are so so slow paced because it wasn't refined yet. Sure there is a certain charm and I always have much love for those who blazed the trail, but something like the recent free vs hiya just wouldnt be possible without a lot of sheer skill. Plus, we just had fantasy and action which was a 4pool vs 8 rax on a 4 man map and was all about micro. Last night in the MBC game
+ Show Spoiler +Hyun dropped 13 bm hatcheries.
This game is awesome. This game is awesome. Let the good times get gooder
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5003 Posts
Each game we played felt stale; I wasn't playing a person, I was playing a robot. Every attack, every expansion, every upgrade, every harass was cold and calculated. People weren't playing anymore, they were just emulating.
BW became less fun for a while, simply because of the competitive nature that inevitably took form. Even in the lowest levels of play, if you weren't trying to play like pros, you were "playing it wrong." Anything other than mimicking the styles and build orders of the best gameplay at the time was considered being a noob and a waste of time.
Huh.
I actually disagree with this. Sure, people are trying to emulate, but if you're just emulating without understanding why the pro players are doing certain things, then of course they're just "robots". But I have a feeling that actual players actually think and know exactly what they're doing, and that makes you play the game, not just "try and compete".
I honestly still see a lot of creativity in games. People are still playing the games, adjusting to the new timing pushes, figuring out what they need to do to adjust to what other people are doing. There are still styles of play, or else Kwanro wouldn't be a pro player or something!
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When obbing games, I find my interest in the gameplay (to skill level) is something like this:
D- -----> D -----> C/C- -----> C+ --> B- and above LOL . . hehe . . Zzzz . . mhmm . . WOW
Mid-range skill 1v1 games are (in general) sooooooo boring unless there's cheese or bm involved. There's a kind of exciting hilarity that comes from a gaping lack of 'gaming professionalism'.
edit: to make myself clearer (since I'm over-generalizing), the 'fun' and the 'play' in the game is decided by the players who play it.
What I'm interpreting from the OP is that there is an increasing bloc of players in the BW community that do not have their own creative identity. All they care about is winning and to do so they are willing to sacrifice any individuality in their gameplay and practice only proven winning strategies. (And to reply to Milkis' post, yes there are many players that use the pro strategies because they understand the effectiveness of them. Yet at the same time, they are unwilling to stick to their own strategies because it is not widely proven, when perhaps what they came up with (further refined over time) could have been the next bw revolution)
For example, if you were the average terran to go mech vs zerg before the fantasy build came out they'd say it'd be unnecessarily risky. The whole community is watching what the pros do and see only what the pros do as fit for themselves. Everything else is either cheese or bm.
edit2: Also with the increasing competitiveness of bw players and the general decrease in non-ums 'casual' bw players, there has been a change in attitude among the average bw player. I find that most players I play are willing to do anything to win and that (as the OP and other posters said) the 'fun' is in the win, rather than the game itself. Thus an increase of bad manner.
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On May 13 2010 03:57 Not_Computer wrote: When obbing games, I find my interest in the gameplay (to skill level) is something like this:
D- -----> D -----> C/C- -----> C+ --> B- and above LOL . . hehe . . Zzzz . . mhmm . . WOW
Mid-range skill 1v1 games are (in general) sooooooo boring unless there's cheese or bm involved. There's a kind of exciting hilarity that comes from a gaping lack of 'gaming professionalism'.
edit: to make myself clearer (since I'm over-generalizing), the 'fun' and the 'play' in the game is decided by the players who play it.
What I'm interpreting from the OP is that there is an increasing bloc of players in the BW community that do not have their own creative identity. All they care about is winning and to do so they are willing to sacrifice any individuality in their gameplay and practice only proven winning strategies. (And to reply to Milkis' post, yes there are many players that use the pro strategies because they understand the effectiveness of them. Yet at the same time, they are unwilling to stick to their own strategies because it is not widely proven, when perhaps what they came up with (further refined over time) could have been the next bw revolution)
For example, if you were the average terran to go mech vs zerg before the fantasy build came out they'd say it'd be unnecessarily risky. The whole community is watching what the pros do and see only what the pros do as fit for themselves. Everything else is either cheese or bm.
edit2: Also with the increasing competitiveness of bw players and the general decrease in non-ums 'casual' bw players, there has been a change in attitude among the average bw player. I find that most players I play are willing to do anything to win and that (as the OP and other posters said) the 'fun' is in the win, rather than the game itself. Thus an increase of bad manner.
I think you summed up pretty well what I was trying to get at.
The skill-level of the old games are undoubtedly inferior to today's games, but that's not what I was talking about. It was the atmosphere of the game, not the content itself.
But yeah, I mean, I still have fun in my own ways of course :o) Even if it leads to more losses than wins, I would much rather try out a bunch of wacky strats than play the same ones over and over. And I like what you mentioned about the increase of bad manner as the shift of average bnet went from casual to competitive. I think everyone has taken notice to that. Winning really has become, for most, the point of playing the game. We even see that in StarCraft 2 already, even though it's in beta and the ladder doesn't matter haha.
I think emulating the progamers is a great way to increase your mastery of the game's mechanics, because a lot of them involve proper timing, macro, micro, reaction, or a combination. From there, though, I feel it would be nice to have some diversion from the strategies to try out some original ideas.
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On May 12 2010 15:33 m4gdelen4 wrote: Broodwar. It is a timeless game to me. It's like chess - I'll never stop playing it.
just wanted to say.
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i pretty much understand you but be sure that to some people, competing, not playing, is fun
the inocent feeling of playing something with ur friends doesnt appeal to me f.e, thats why i retired when study came crashing down over my free time
but yeah, i understand and respect your feeling
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