Interviews: Louder, Chill, PsyonicReaver - Page 18

BlackYoshi

United States84 Posts

February 25 2010 23:27 GMT

#341

On February 26 2010 03:47 MultiMarine wrote:

I'm old school too and you are still wrong. Zileas controlling his reaver and shuttle is micro, but all the other stuff you are talking about is multitasking.

When you multitask 3 separate groups of units....thats micromanaging them.

How much simpler of a definition do you want?

BlackYoshi

United States84 Posts

February 25 2010 23:29 GMT

#342

On February 26 2010 03:55 Von wrote:

Show nested quote +

I've read other threads that have addressed this issue, and halfway through this one without hearing anyone approach the actual (fairly obvious, actually )solution to this problem:

The solution is not "completely inert AI requiring clickfest babysitting" VS "super intelligent AI requiring no player input"

The solution is:

"competent AI with intelligent pathfinding, that is augmented by special moves for each unit"

Analogy:

What separated the kick ass player from the average guy in Mortal Combat?

Answer:

Special Moves:

Each fighting charachter had a basic sequence of moves that it could do simply. If you pressed one, maybe two buttons fast enough you could kick straight, or punch straight.

If you added more buttons to a sequence you could do more sophisticated moves: roundhouse kicks, and uppercuts. Some of these were only effective if you had your avatar in the right position vs your opponents.

However, the uber Special Moves were the Fatalities:

If you knew the moves and could execute them fast enough in the right sequence, 4 or 5 button presses would do those wicked cool Fatalities that made everyone laugh .. they totally kicked ass.

This is what Starcraft needs for every unit.

The answer is to add special micro abilities to every unit, and make them precise enough to be difficult to pull off with consistency in the heat of strategizing, macroing and battle.

It's things like using the Patrol button to force a retreating Vulture to fire at pursuing zerglings on the move. It involves tweaking the "auto surround" to only take effect when say ... you have a group of zerglings selected, then right clicking on a target, then immediately right clicking twice *behind* the target to activate the surround.

In this way you satisfy all parties, the casual gamers (mass sales) that Blizz needs to profit ...and the truly skilled players that will elevate the game from a casual hobby to an art.

Peeps need to step outside the "either / or" box that they are trapped in in order to see this /obvious

.

So basically make every unit a spellcaster

This is close to what WC3 did, and we see how well-loved that game is on here.

BlackYoshi

United States84 Posts

February 25 2010 23:30 GMT

#343

On February 26 2010 04:00 EchOne wrote:
Man this thread really became a shit-storm. I feel like I'm back in the great MBS flame-fests of 2008.

Anyways 2 misunderstandings have got to stop. 1.) Assuming that hardcore BW fans yearn for an interface even more arbitrarily limited than that of WC2. This is totally unjustified. Stop it. 2.) Assuming that hardcore BW fans want SC2 to be similar to BW in as many respects as possible. This is totally unjustified. Stop it. At the very least attempt to tenably connect what BW fans assert with what they supposedly believe or desire.

That said I can't wait to actually see these interviews.

Then assert what you want. This thread has mostly been saying "the AI is too smart", so naturally, it sounds like what you want is for the AI to become stupider.

BlackYoshi

United States84 Posts

February 25 2010 23:32 GMT

#344

On February 26 2010 08:07 Boblion wrote:

Show nested quote +

beta = feedback.

Otherwise there would be no beta duh.

But bad feedback could damage it for everyone

Audiohelper123

80 Posts

February 25 2010 23:36 GMT

#345

You clowns need to understand that sc has more strategy than your tiny brains can comprehend. Just because you see tanks/vultures every time in tvp doesn't mean its the same thing every time. What do you call strategy? making different units every game? LOL

I bet if i asked you what jaedongs strategy in a certain game was you would say " he just went zergling muta and microed a bunch" which is the most simplistic way to think about a game. Bgh noobs don't have any idea what strategy is. You're so bad and ignorant it really hurts. Removing micro/macro doesn't add strategy to the game, L2P.

OOl

United States65 Posts

February 25 2010 23:37 GMT

#346

On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:

yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue.

u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time.

+ Show Spoiler +

On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote:

<a name="cmd06"></a><font style='font:bold 12pt Arial'>6. THOU SHALL RESPECT FORUM VETERANS</font>
<blockquote>All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer (as reflected in their post count + length of time with us as a registered member). It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and contribution are prized commodities around here. In a similar vein, "known" pro/semi-pro players will also be treated with deference (yes, quite a few hang out here). Don't complain - these guys have earned it.

Remember: we ban little kids all the time because they sign on thinking they can say and do whatever they want to whomever they want right from the get-go - just like they're used to doing at other sites. That attitude won't work here. That's a promise. As far as new users are concerned (i.e. anyone with less than 1000 or so quality posts to their name), this site is Holy Ground. The veterans are the users who've consistently shown respect to the site and to others and that's why they're still here. Show them some respect.

In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts may be able to get away with a few minor transgressions in etiquette with just a warning. If you're at 50 posts and you try the same kind of stunt, then we may just ban you. Harsh? Yes. Unfair? Most definitely. But that's the way life is. Learn to live with it.

This also means you should think twice before calling that guy with 5000+ posts a jackass. If the guy's been with us that long, chances are YOU'RE the one being an idiot. Some battles are just not worth fighting - just move on.</blockquote><div align='center'><img src='/images/misc/tencommandments.gif'></div>

[

Wasn't going to get into this but this post put me over the edge. to all the guys with >100 posts read that spoiler and stop complaining.
As for the game, I posted it earlier and I'll post it now--the game will be different. Way back we had the choice of choosing if we wanted SC2, a whole new game. WoS, "World of Starcraft". Or HUGE scbw expansion set (ie the same game except "new" due to ridiculous amounts of changes).

The community chose a whole new game and that's what we got. If you have not played SCII Beta, you have no merit for any argument about imbalance, lower skill, etc. If you HAVE played the Beta, then you have a little room for complaint. I personally believe that sc2 will be different but still a high-skill game. I have played the beta and I find that a lot of the same principles still apply.

Also, remember this is a BETA! if people have serious complaints, send it to blizzard and stop filling the forum with crappy arguments. We're a week in and we're already making snap judgements when the final units/technologies/etc aren't even established! SCBW was imbalanced as crap and filled with tons of holes when it first came out. Not when it first hit beta, when it first came out. It took 10+ years to get scbw to the level it is at today and it will take a long time before anyone really knows if SC2 will live up to its prequel. Until then just chill out, enjoy the ride and especially if you do not have a beta key don't make snap judgements

snowdrift

France2061 Posts

February 25 2010 23:39 GMT

#347

On February 26 2010 08:23 BlackYoshi wrote:

Show nested quote +

So make the game more frustrating to the average player. Got it.

Absolutely no one likes it when your units do you something you didn't tell them to and then you have to babysit them.

I'm pretty sure that's what people are complaining about now. Too smart of an AI means units will take initiatives the player hasn't asked for.

On February 26 2010 08:27 BlackYoshi wrote:
When you multitask 3 separate groups of units....thats micromanaging them.

How much simpler of a definition do you want?

When you multitask 3 separate groups of units... that's multitasking them. Microing consists of the specific things you ask those units to do.

Canada4732 Posts

February 25 2010 23:48 GMT

#348

On February 26 2010 08:29 BlackYoshi wrote:

Show nested quote +

So basically make every unit a spellcaster

This is close to what WC3 did, and we see how well-loved that game is on here.

No, it isn't basically what WC3 did. Its far closer to what RA3 did, but RA3 didn't really design all of their units properly.

Brett

Australia3820 Posts

February 26 2010 01:03 GMT

#349

On February 26 2010 08:36 Audiohelper123 wrote:
You clowns need to understand that sc has more strategy than your tiny brains can comprehend. Just because you see tanks/vultures every time in tvp doesn't mean its the same thing every time. What do you call strategy? making different units every game? LOL

I bet if i asked you what jaedongs strategy in a certain game was you would say " he just went zergling muta and microed a bunch" which is the most simplistic way to think about a game. Bgh noobs don't have any idea what strategy is. You're so bad and ignorant it really hurts. Removing micro/macro doesn't add strategy to the game, L2P.

You are literally the worst poster in this thread.

Anyway...

The solution to many posters' complaints in this thread (re: 'auto surround') is unlikely to be simple. I have NO fucking idea how blizzard code their AI (and neither will 99% of the people on this website, so if you want to attack my post on that basis then this entire thread's discussion is moot) but I dare say that auto surround is intrinsically linked to the improved pathing. There is an intuitive validity to the assumption that units moving to a position or moving to attack another unit/building will use the same form of AI to avoid obstructing objects and complete their objective (ie. move there or attack this), whether these obstructing objects be friendly units or opposing units or map terrain features or random doodads. Thus creating the auto surround.

The question is this: If the above assumption is correct, and I have already conceded that this is speculation about blizzard's code, is it possible for blizzard to easily (or at all) unlink the AI pathing improvements when the specific unit is being used with attack move, or automatically engaging a threat? If it is possible this would leave out the idiocy of a dragoon getting stuck at a ramp/building for 20 seconds when not 'in combat' (so to speak), whilst requiring the same level of 'input' that it currently does in BW when engaging the enemy to obtain optimal output.

The secondary question is whether that is even desirable...

As an aside, I have to say, I echo the sentiment that it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early for people to be complaining about the simplicity or automation of combat in SC2 when the Beta is a week old and SC is 11 years old... Muta micro, vulture patrolling, 'pylon AI' (ie. use of pylons in PvX at the P's base to distract fire from range units), the 'magic box' and so on are all 'tricks' that, yes, have added value to the game, but took YEARS to ever be discovered, and indeed were largely discovered by accident. Let's not forget that the game was intensely popular before and without these things. Hardcore War2 players bitched and moaned about simplification of a number of things also which were imminently forgotten by the SC community.

Edit: When I say complaining about the simplicity or automation, I mean complaining as if it is the death knell of SC2. I don't mean giving simple feedback for beta purposes.

Yamoth

United States315 Posts

February 26 2010 01:25 GMT

#350

From what I've seen, all of this so called dumbing down would really do is be less forgiving for players to who make mistake to depend on their micro skill the compensate for it. Skill wise, I don't see it really lower the competition all that much. The best out there will still be the best out there, all I really see if that the meta shift a bit away from micro and macro aspect and a bit toward strategic and timing. So instead of being too concern about how Starcraft 2 require less micro, what we should really be more concern about it the balance of all the units so that no one build is clearly superior to the rest.

We Are Here

Australia1810 Posts

February 26 2010 01:52 GMT

#351

On February 26 2010 08:32 BlackYoshi wrote:

Show nested quote +

But bad feedback could damage it for everyone

lol, so beta should only be for good feedback?

funny how many replies the thread has even though most of us cant even read the interviews

Vasoline73

United States7697 Posts

February 26 2010 02:58 GMT

#352

So many horrible posts/trolls in this thread.

I agree completely with Misrah.. you have a bunch of people that hear about SC2 and TL on IGN or Blizzard's forum and suddenly because they're "gamers" think that they have in depth knowledge on SCBW and can comment on it when really they don't give a shit about the original game at all. OK you played BGH 5 years ago on west and had fun, that doesn't make you even qualified to talk about why BW is a good game.

You have Black Yoshi who keeps talking about how small the competitive BW scene is when it has nothing to do with how the game should end up. And then he goes off about how it's a strategy game and therefore shouldn't be something you really have to spend time on and practice at + Show Spoiler +

On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:

Show nested quote +

Good; its a strategy game, the defining thing should be tactics and strategy, not how much you can practice (which pushed out the old Korean pros) and burns out all the current pros. They practice 8-12 hours a day, and many retire in the mid 20s. Its just not good for the "strategy".

. Sounds like a typical noob to me, mad that you have to focus on something you don't want to (execution) up even though you have a great "strategy." Yeah I'm sure you'll be gosu at SC2 also :/. Then he goes on to back up his opinion of koreans opinions with statistics concerning audience size and television ratings here..
.

On February 26 2010 03:02 BlackYoshi wrote:
I think most Koreans will agree that Starcraft was more exciting in the days of Oov, Nal Ra, Boxer, and such when the game was more dynamic, less set-in stone, and unorthodox strategies could work on surprise factor alone, and the television ratings and crowds back that up.

EXCEPT he has no idea what he's talking about an is just spewing his opinion like fact. Whenever television ratings for OSL and MSL finals are released they are always the number one watched shows 18-21 korean male, the most recent OSL had a huge crowd.. I don't know what to say. Keep imagining that you know the statistics though.

So many delusional posters in this thread talking about "there wont be melee unit micro, but now you'll have enough APM to do a simultaneous front attack and back attack with a drop!"... :/. Then you can just a move the two groups together! Woot.

I don't expect SC2 to change much from the beta so you guys will probably get what you want regardless. Just disappointing from Blizzard imo

Augury

United States758 Posts

February 26 2010 03:03 GMT

#353

The micro in Wc3 was a lot different in the beginning of the game than it was at the end. I really think everyone needs to give the game a few months. There aren't very many talented players playing ATM anyways.

Darkren

Canada1841 Posts

February 26 2010 03:12 GMT

#354

On February 26 2010 02:35 Misrah wrote:

Show nested quote +

Still wondering how you can possibly argue with me about staracraft when you don't play the game lol logically you have no platform with which to argue from. you have zero experience and zero data to back up your claims. You just talk too much.

Show nested quote +

On February 26 2010 02:12 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:

On February 26 2010 02:07 Misrah wrote:

On February 26 2010 02:02 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:

On February 26 2010 01:10 Misrah wrote:

On February 26 2010 00:56 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:

On February 26 2010 00:44 spinesheath wrote:

On February 26 2010 00:40 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:

On February 26 2010 00:31 Misrah wrote:

On February 26 2010 00:29 iTcouLdbeWorsE wrote:
[quote]

u certainly have a point. but ur wrong too.

u say sc2 is easier then sc1 and it is not as demanding and so on

perhaps ur right and it is a little easier in general but fact is that 80% of the sc1 progamers ive seen playing so far just plain suck at sc2. I stopped reading here.
and i couldnt believe it when i first saw it.

ret for example one of the best foreigner players in sc1, he even went to korea to train there, plays sc2 like a total nooby

fact is learning sc:bw and becoming good at it is nothing compared to mastering a new game.
atm sc2 is not easier to play than sc.

it might be in 10years, namely when there is as much "data" as there is about sc:bw.

what happens is a shift of the skills required.

u can no longer read all guides, hammer them into ur head like a machine, get required apm and fkn pwn.
too many sc players think they are the gods of RTS gamers. infact nobody knows more about their game as sc players do but that is only natural cause sc is the game that has been around the longest.

players from all other RTS games currently play on an equal or even higher lvl then the sc players. do u know why?

because most sc players have forgotten what an RTS is all about.

its not only about APM, macro, micro. only SC is it in his current state because the stategical part has evolved over the years to a point where there is not much that will change.
and that is why many sc players fkn suck at sc2 until they remember how to use their head again.

when i see a terra whine about stealthed units because he has no detection and on the other hand he is proud how he didnt miss a single mule dropdown, i can do nothing expect to shake my head in disbelieve.
GJ u macroed perfectly but how about using ur head and fkn scan instead of getting +270 minerals and lose to invis units???

if u want macro, micro and apm go on continue to play SC u might be right that it is more demanding in that particular part but stop posting shit like sc2 is easier then sc it rly annoys the hell out of me

ps: frustration of not having a beta key yet may have caused generel aggresive tone in my speech and is not to be taken personaly

Not wasting me time.

u are so proving on of my points...

its a fact dude just get over it. i didnt say it might not change with the time.

but watch a replay of ret, kolll etc and if u say: "wow he did play good", i allow u to call my post "time wasting"

It's no fact (it's blatantly wrong), and he didn't prove any of your points.

yes i get it, u play sc and u have been a tl member longer than i have. ur oppinion is right, mine is wrong. don't waste ur time reading my posts i have no clue.

u are the gods of RTS and ur idols are gosu no matter what they do, they can even please 10 woman at the same time.

Glad you are starting to understand. I don't care what you have to say because you do not understand sc. Then you make baseless opinions about me And tl when you probably just found this site today. Yes I am 100 percent serious.

the thing is ur jumping to conlusions.
u say i dont understand sc which is totaly not true. i didnt stumble across this site yesterday. i just didnt bother posting/registering because i didnt play sc much myself. i however followed the sc pro scene, watched vods, read strategic guides and so on for at least 5 years.

on the other hand i have nearly 10 years of experience in playing RTS games competetive, be it sc (as mentioned not much), wc3, dow1/2, c&n series, btfm the list goes on.

u sir are just a sad because u judge people without knowing them. i don't know u too, but did i ignore ur posts or opinion? no, i read them and said i think u are wrong.

perhaps the way i did so wasn't the nicest but sure its better then what u are doing.

so get off ur horse.

so you have zero sc experience and you admit it. Also no other rts does not make you an expert. Sc is not an rts. It is the best. It is art. It has a pro league for 10 plus years. Nothing else compares.

i don't have zero sc experience. also playing only sc doesnt make u an expert. and i am curious on what level u play starcraft. so care to tell me?

I am a C+/C level zerg on Icup. My record currently is C at 30-12 on the ladder. I have been playing starcarft for 12 years, competitive for 2. and yes, playing SC makes me far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to discussing SC1 and SC2

How does that not compute?

Ur C+ and uve played for 12+ years, and yet u say u understand the game perfectly it seems like ur the joke here

Beachac

United States278 Posts

February 26 2010 03:12 GMT

#355

This is what starcraft 1 looked like in beta. People didn't like it and they did a complete graphics overhaul and we have what we have now. I fully trust blizzard to act if the current version of starcraft II isn't accepted in the community.

bendez

Canada283 Posts

February 26 2010 03:20 GMT

#356

This thread reminds me of the UFC vs Boxing interview few years ago.
Haha remember this guys? When Joe started owning Lou with reasons, Lou flips out and yells "U DUN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BOXING ITS AN ART"
Much like some of the people here

U DUN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SC.

Bull-Demon

United States582 Posts

February 26 2010 03:20 GMT

#357

Well I see why they called it warcraft in space.

GunSlinger

614 Posts

February 26 2010 03:23 GMT

#358

They've already put too much time and energy into SC2 to do a 'complete overhaul'.

I haven't played the game so I don't know if it needs one, but I'm just saying that SC1 and BW were cheaper, easier and much less time consuming then SC2 to develop.

BlackYoshi

United States84 Posts

February 26 2010 03:27 GMT

#359

On February 26 2010 08:39 snowdrift86 wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm pretty sure that's what people are complaining about now. Too smart of an AI means units will take initiatives the player hasn't asked for.

Show nested quote +

When you multitask 3 separate groups of units... that's multitasking them. Microing consists of the specific things you ask those units to do.

Multitasking is nothing more than doing multiple things at once; micro is anything related to unit control, even if its A-move.

chobopeon

United States7342 Posts

February 26 2010 03:32 GMT

#360

The interviews are up but I can hardly be confident about how long they'll stay up. I'm on the lookout for new hosting options so this will never happen again. Let me know if it goes down again. I'm feeling pessimistic.

Prev 1 16 17 18 19 20 Next All

Please or register to reply.

Interviews: Louder, Chill, PsyonicReaver - Page 18

Completed

Ongoing

Upcoming