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On October 28 2009 04:57 Icks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 04:30 Holgerius wrote:
Marines aren't supposed to be SWAT team members... Yeah.. a Terran marine is supposed to be a Terran Marine... but who knows what it is except Blizzard. I'm not saying thay can do whatever they want (although they can -_- ) but plz a shield doesnt change the nature of a Terran Marine. And as i like the idea of showing upgrades, i think the idea of the shield does fit to the Marine. Anyway, 2 year-old debate...
It does change the nature of a Terran Marine. A Marine is supposed to be a bad assed soldier who takes drugs, bangs hot medics and runs impetuously into battle with viscious, slimy monsters. Not a faggot hiding behind a shield.
''If you want to survive in the military, you're going to have to stop acting like some damn Boy Scout.''
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On October 28 2009 03:38 Response wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2009 02:07 Ryuu314 wrote:On October 27 2009 15:19 4clovers wrote:
Even though they have lurkers and marines, there will no longer be any nice lurker vs marine micro.
instead of fucking stim, marines get some fucked up shield which just buffs their hitpoints like they are some WC3 grunt. They aren't fast enough to run between lurker spikes, so why bother microing. no medics to micro around.
oh, haha, and stalker laser beams move too quickly for tank/dropship harass. dragoon bolts go slower, so you can time it and put the tank back into the dropship. Stalker? haha. uhm, no.
Btw, the protoss player sucked. I can't believe he's a game tester. If he can't even use the right unit combinations, how the fuck is he a game tester? Marines still have stim. They just got the shield in addition to stim. Check sources before saying something. this doesnt change the fact holding a shield looks retarded on a unit that is also carrying a gun
But that isnt the point 4clovers was trying to make.
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On October 24 2009 03:18 whyohwhy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 23:30 immacolate wrote:
- almost all units seem to fire the same two types of lasers (small gay laser or big bossman laser), regardless of their race or function. bring back plasma bowls for the protoss or something, make them DIFFERENT than terrans. that is essential. this game is in serious danger of being perceived as robots vs robots, deprived of any identity.
QFT. And then the "cool" robots like the Reaver are replaced with some generic garbage from war of the worlds to make tom cruise fans happy I suppose? I mean, replace the Reaver if you have to, but ffs at least replace it with something as good or better, please? But yeah you are right there is definitely a more generic feel to it than the original SC. I mean just look at the Thor vs the Viking on one of the pictures in the Thor thread... One giant 2 feet 2 arms walking robot standing to a medium sized 2 feet 2 arms walking robot with the same color scheme and just about the same shape if you take away a couple of big guns... how very unique.. zzz.
This has been my biggest concern since the game was announced. Many units are seriously lacking in creativity, uniqueness and freshness (I haven't forgotten about roaches). I'll refrain from being too harsh until the beta hits, but...I dunno...
It really does look fun, but I actually wouldn't mind if the game were postponed for another year or two.
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imho, remove roaches add something cool like some sort of thing that has a shell and can do a sort of egg transformation just for defending, creating chokes and etc...
Reaver > colossos no mas
Helions wtf, put vultures back.
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On October 24 2009 03:18 whyohwhy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2009 23:30 immacolate wrote:
- almost all units seem to fire the same two types of lasers (small gay laser or big bossman laser), regardless of their race or function. bring back plasma bowls for the protoss or something, make them DIFFERENT than terrans. that is essential. this game is in serious danger of being perceived as robots vs robots, deprived of any identity.
QFT. And then the "cool" robots like the Reaver are replaced with some generic garbage from war of the worlds to make tom cruise fans happy I suppose? I mean, replace the Reaver if you have to, but ffs at least replace it with something as good or better, please?
You know, I never really understood arguments like this. Yes, the Colossus is a reference to H.G. Wells`s book War of the Worlds (the Tom Cruise movie was an adaptation of said book)...so? What exactly is wrong in that? Both the Marine and Dropship in the original are a reference to the Aliens movies, yet nobody seems to have had a problem with that (so far, at least).
Before I reveal any of my thoughts on the BR, I would just like to say that I immensely enjoyed it and I think it is already quite spectator friendly (although, obviously, there are still issues to be resolved). Also, unlike a great deal of people here, I do not think that PvT/TvP in SC2 needs to have the absolute same dynamics and styles of play as the original. Afterall, the entire point of a sequel is to shift the metagame.
With that said, here are some random thoughts:
- Honestly, who`s bright idea was it to give Marauders of all units Stim Packs? Both Marines and Reapers need them to improve their performance as the game progresses, but Marauders are already very powerful as it is. Do not get me wrong, I love the Marauder; Terrans needed a unit that would give the Bio tech branch more flexibility and use. But Stim Packs are overkill; please get rid of them.
- Hellions have a lot of potential. I mean seriously...a Firebat on wheels that costs only minerals? I cannot even begin to imagine just how overpowered it might become in the hands of competent players. But while I understand that the Hellion cannot shoot while moving for balance reasons, it should at least be able to fire the instant (or nearly the instant) it stops. Currently, the gap between the stop and the shot is too long and does not lend itself well to good micromanagement.
- The Thor...honestly, I am not sure what to think of it. I used to hate it and wanted it removed, but I am not so sure nowadays. Concept-wise, it is fine. A big mecha machine fits Terrans fairly well. Also, in the BR, it died suprisingly quickly and without a fuss....just like an SC unit should. Lastly, I do not it`s HP alone is grounds for exclusion. If that were the case, then we might as well remove the Battlecruiser and Ultralisk as well.
What suprised me the most about the Thor was why David Kim decided to use it in the first place. Considering the general lack of air units, the Thor did not get to function in it`s primary role. Plus, Kim`s Marauder/Hellion combo from the first BR seemed a lot more cost-efficient and would have allowed him to use the gas either for Tanks. I am not certain, but perhaps the 250mm Strike Cannons ability has made the Thor a more preferable choice to tanks, especially since they are more mobile.
Either way, assuming this potential imbalance is fixed, I see some potential in Thors, most notably in TvT as a part of a possible alternative build to mass Vikings. As such, I will reserve my judgement until beta.
- But while I still have some hope for the Thor actually becoming a decent unit, I no longer see any reason why Blizzard should keep the Mothership. I am not saying they should bring the Arbiter back, but the Mothership comes off as a poorer variant of it. Plus, in spite of all the attempt by Blizzard to balance it, it was always either overpowered or useless. Although Browder said that he imagined the Mothership being used for 2v2`s, this goes against Blizzard`s policy of primarily balancing around 1v1 As such, I think a more suitable replacement is in order. I would not mind seeing Motherships in single-player, though.
- Stalkers need a better colour scheme, in my opinion. I think their colours are not apparent enough and could cause problems in PvP, especially if the colours are similar.
- I agree with others that the HT needs it`s spectral animation again. Although I had no trouble differentiating between Zealots and HTs, the animation suited them really well in the original.
- I also agree that there needs to be a way for players to keep units in a specific formation. The way they have a tendency to clump currently could potentially be very harmful for good micromanagement. The suprising thing is that the Zerglings in the second Battle Report did, at one point, move in a circular formation. Perhaps there is a control trick to it?
That is all for now.
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I definitely agree that Marauders shouldn't have stim... mostly because it is imbalanced on them.. 10 hp out of 125 is definitely not worth worrying about.
The Mothership I feel can definitely be made to work, particularly if it has some method of increasing its energy based on # of Obelisks or Nexuses across the board. (perhaps its energy recharge is based on the number of Nexuses the player has) That would allow it to scale better and be balancable even when unique.
Currently its abilities seem to be self-teleport, cloak and 'stasis field', and then whatever Time bomb currently does.
I think the Thors might have been an Insurance policy against air... or more likely against Colossi...which could take on Marauders if they got some numbers.
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Rather than cut stim out completely, what about modifying the negative effects of stim so that it's based on the unit rather than a flat 10hp. The first thing that comes to mind is to simply take a certain % of maximum health such as 25% regardless of the unit's HP, however that has a couple problems due to the new mechanics.
First off, this would increase the damage marines take with stim when you upgrade their HP, which is a little janky. Healing is significantly later in the tech tree, nuking your marauders for 30+ hp a pop is pretty devastating in the early-mid game when healing isn't readily available. Also, reapers would take 15 hp a pop which I feel is too steep when they will typically not be used in conjunction with medivacs due to their innate mobility. Reapers shouldn't have to rely on medivacs to harass efficiently.
Seems to me that marauders are the only unit that requires a tweak to the old stim mechanic, perhaps something simple such as "Stim: -10hp to light infantry, -20/25hp to armored infantry."
Numbers could be balanced accordingly if, say, 25hp was too heavy on marauders and 10hp too light on upgraded marines after testing. I don't like the idea of completely removing stim as an option on the new infantry, as people will most certainly claim reapers are too fast/damaging with stim as well, once they're used prominently in the future. Just adjust stim penalties for those units.
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I personally would want stim cut from marauders simply because the balance ramifications are too huge. Marauders already have the ability to slow down units. Add to that the ability to move a lot faster you're potentially going to get untouchable marauders in the hands of a skilled player.
I really liked the mothership, but the more I think about it, the more I think it should be scrapped. Mostly because if it's a unique unit, as in the player can only have 1, it should be much more powerful than it is now. In the current build, it...sucks. Especially if you can only control one at a time and also with its huge cost of 400/400. On the flip side, if it was made so that you can control more than one, it's still too expensive to really be massed or produced in decent numbers. So right now, I'm kinda split on that topic.
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I haven't been following SC2 development but decided to take a look at this since it's got to be close to a beta or release by now.. Anyways my 2cents:
The good:
-Nuke looked cool
-New units, sweet
The bad:
-All the units seem to fire lasers, looks bad
-ALL the buildings for terran/protoss suck. Terran rax/factory? look the same. At least in SC you had one that was a square, one that was rectangular, and they looked different! Protoss ones also very hard to tell apart.
-Map looks bad. Way too grass like, needs to be more spacey. All the effects on it make it hard to look. It should be more plain like a battleground.
-Can't tell what's going on in battles.
-New units are good idea, repeat of SC would be boring, too bad they all look terrible. They don't look unique, can't even tell the terran tank apart from other units... and wheres the siege sound? lol
So overall looks pretty terrible on all fronts. I'm glad I haven't been following this closely. It seems to play like SC style which is good, (terran walling, hit and run etc.) but it doesn't really matter if everything else sucks. Hopefully they either scrap SC2 and start again, or completely overall the maps, units, and game engine.
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On October 29 2009 11:50 Prod wrote:
Hopefully they either scrap SC2 and start again, or completely overall the maps, units, and game engine.
You can't be serious. You're *asking* for another 10 years of development because of a few gameplay issues not in line with and your own expectations. Moreover, you underestimate the ability of the developers to fix these problems.
Still, if you expect SC2 to match SC1 even after 9 months of beta testing you will be sorely disappointed. Starcraft has had 10+ years out in public scrutiny. SC2 is still living in the closet big time. It just does not seem physically possible.
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On October 29 2009 15:20 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2009 11:50 Prod wrote:
Hopefully they either scrap SC2 and start again, or completely overall the maps, units, and game engine. You can't be serious. You're *asking* for another 10 years of development because of a few gameplay issues not in line with and your own expectations. Moreover, you underestimate the ability of the developers to fix these problems. Still, if you expect SC2 to match SC1 even after 9 months of beta testing you will be sorely disappointed. Starcraft has had 10+ years out in public scrutiny. SC2 is still living in the closet big time. It just does not seem physically possible.
SC2 has not been in development for 10 years.
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Sc2 and D3 are being delayed mainly due to the changes being done to Bnet to TRY to twarth those little turd munching hackers. Sc2 will most likely come out Q4 2010 (oct-dec), as for D3 it should be a year later to keep the cash flow and the stockholders happy.
It was pretty annoying to watch, due in part to the commentators, and also due to the cluelessness of the toss player.
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Delayed? I don't think D3 qualifies as delayed at the moment. As far as I know D3 is still in the middle of development. I would be surprised to see it before the last quarter of 2011.
Hopefully starting up battle.net shouldn't delay D3 at all, just the obvious integration.
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I think in the process of ironing out things, people lose sight of what matters and get hung up on small things. BR4 was a fantastic game compared to the other BRs. It is demonstrably a higher-level game with a good show on both sides, though there is no doubt that the better player was pretty much fated to win. This BR made the game look interesting and strategically sound and deep.
There's a lot of complaining about small details that I feel is simply misguided. Some complain that positional aspects of PvT are no longer in play. Well, when the Terran waltzes up into a Protoss army without carefully positioning, he gets raped hard by storm. An event like that in a game with better players would result in the Protoss taking the win.
Others complain about the resilience of the planetary fortress, but I think the actual problem is just the repair rate of the SCV's. Notice how much damage per second is repaired with just 2-3 SCV's. The same goes for medivac healing. Yes, it played a big part in this game and it's probably imbalanced. Big deal. There's no huge design flaw here, just some rates that need rescaling.
The only justifiable complaint I've seen is with the Thor's animations. Obviously, it looks bad. It's very jerky, unnatural motion, especially for something that is supposed to be a massive hulk of metal. Other than that, I think the Thor is doing pretty well here. I agree 'philosophically' with those saying that the Thor is hard to 'place' in the categories of units, but just watching how it's used in the game makes it seem interesting. Its special ability is a lot like psi storm - it will make people pay for not properly positioning their armies.
The Protoss paid a heavy price for not responding to the harass the whole game. The dropship just won't be countered by a scattering of Stalkers. I think a few cannons would have done some good, and perhaps even a Phoenix or two. On the other hand, I feel the Protoss could have harassed so much more using his warp prisms. He did a really nice play with those 4 zealots at the Terran's third, and also with the storm 'drop' at the natural, but he probably could have hit the Terran main just as hard as he was being hit. It's pretty apparent that both races have lots of interesting tools at their disposal, and this game was really exciting because of their utilization.
Probably my favorite moment of the game was when the Terran had just destroyed the Protoss' third and walked up the ramp to go after the fourth base. The Protoss army ignored the ramp entirely and just walked/blinked up the cliff. The fact that such a thing can happen is just awesome, and it means a lot of exciting map utilization in the future.
Additionally, opinions about the Hellion vs. Vulture aside, the Hellion seems a lot more like controlling muta than controlling vultures. If you watch the footage of the a-move Hellion vs. the microed hellion, it's exactly like the a-move muta vs. the move-close-then-hold-position-then-move-close muta. In other words, a-moving a Hellion = bad. Carefully microing a Hellion = good.
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The terran army I find is very comparable to a SC:BW ultra ling zerg army vs terran. The marauders are like lings, thors like ultras, Reapers work like mutas in a way... I do really like it though, being caught without being able to detect highground is like not having a detector vs DTs... I can see so many different builds already. The only thing that worries me is it seems very macro oriented and I find watching Micro heavy games better.
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On November 01 2009 01:36 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
The Protoss paid a heavy price for not responding to the harass the whole game. The dropship just won't be countered by a scattering of Stalkers. I think a few cannons would have done some good, and perhaps even a Phoenix or two. On the other hand, I feel the Protoss could have harassed so much more using his warp prisms. He did a really nice play with those 4 zealots at the Terran's third, and also with the storm 'drop' at the natural, but he probably could have hit the Terran main just as hard as he was being hit. It's pretty apparent that both races have lots of interesting tools at their disposal, and this game was really exciting because of their utilization.
Agreed the Protoss really had 2 problems
1. Harrass...(should have kept an Observer permanently over that ledge), and a few more Obeservers+Cannons would have been useful
2. going for the planetary fortress.... If he'd used an observer to see the army at the natural, he probably could have taken it pretty easily with the force he had, depending on Protoss . If not, he Was resourcing/expanding better (until he got nuked)
One other point, the Gold expansion wasn't that good... 6 minerals that give 7 = 42... compare to 8 minerals that give 5 = 40, easier to saturate, but not much better once you do.
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On second thoughts, this BR could have been better... Along with all the other BRs.
1. Why does Blizzard make BR releases so secretive? Reference to BR#2,3, and 4. I see absolutely no point in that. For god's sake, it's just a video of you guys filming each other play. Post them en masse!
2. Who wants to see accross the map before every battle? It's so annoying! We don't want explanations of the map, we can see every significant locations through the minimap, especially if it's an already existing, famous map like LT (which was imba in this case due to those badly placed hills next to the natural expo). We get what a Xel'Naga watch tower is, and how pointless its existence is too.
3. Improve the spectator camera view. Don't you guys at Blizzard ever watch Proleagues of the game you've made 11 years ago? My point is, please stop showing insignificant parts of the map, like those Xel'Naga watchtowers or whatever, and show places like the main base, natural expo, and expansions much more frequently. We want to see the macro decisions of each player.
4. It's nice that we can see what each player is building, as well as their resource states, but shouldn't that make you guys want to play even better? I mean, David had over 1400 minerals at some point, he had a Starport which only built a dropship, bleah medivac sorry old habits, and then somehow was put to sleep never to be touched again, and there were something like four factories instead of 10. And where are the armories? with that much mineral in my hands I would build 3 armories for massive upgrades.
Honestly, guys, it can get better. Make many more at more frequent intervals and you'll get it in the end. Good luck with BR#5.
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Oh, and for christ's sake, please make it so that you can at least temporarily see the units shooting at you from higher ground. Temporarily. Otherwise this is just stupid. In real life you would be able to see someone trying to shoot at you from a rooftop or balcony. And gameplaywise too. Look how stupid this becomes; even in SCBW you could temporarily see units shooting at you from higher ground, so why would you modify that?
In fact, why would you modify ANY part of SCBW for its sequel? You want to make a BETTER game, not a MODIFIED game right? Why not add extra onto something that already exists as a perfect game, instead of twitching it and make it imperfect? That's something I never understood.
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On November 15 2009 20:26 spkim1 wrote:In fact, why would you modify ANY part of SCBW for its sequel? You want to make a BETTER game, not a MODIFIED game right? Why not add extra onto something that already exists as a perfect game, instead of twitching it and make it imperfect? That's something I never understood.
If it'd be perfect there'd be nothing to add either... Not that hard to understand really that theyre better off making a new game.
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On November 15 2009 20:26 spkim1 wrote:
Oh, and for christ's sake, please make it so that you can at least temporarily see the units shooting at you from higher ground. Temporarily. Otherwise this is just stupid.
Name-calling and acting indignant does not make your arguments more valid. I mean seriously, anyone who thinks you should be able to see units in the high ground while they're attacking you is an ignorant buffoon and has no place in Teamliquid! See what I did there?
On November 15 2009 20:26 spkim1 wrote:even in SCBW you could temporarily see units shooting at you from higher ground, so why would you modify that?
Even in SCBW you had reavers and firebats. Why would anyone want to change that?
On November 15 2009 20:26 spkim1 wrote:In fact, why would you modify ANY part of SCBW for its sequel? You want to make a BETTER game, not a MODIFIED game right? Why not add extra onto something that already exists as a perfect game, instead of twitching it and make it imperfect? That's something I never understood.
Exactly. What SC2 needs is new box art and a tutorial disc from David Kim, the game itself should run exactly like SCBW did in 1998.
/facepalm
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EPT
