EPT2v2 Strat Guide - Page 2
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
My point is that a good TZ team will always completely dominate a PP team, even if you let both P get an expo. TZ unit combo just rapes PP units, even 2x as many. One game my ally and I won a PP vs TZ but it took us 40 minutes and mining out the entire map. The terran had 3 bases, the zerg 2, and my ally and I each had 3. We ended up winning in the end mining out our islands and using recalls and carriers. Our opponents were significantly worse than we were individually but they knew how to use their units. I recall one attack we had in the midgame where we had probably 350 pop of units combined and it all melted to ling/hydra/tank/mines, you cannot control a P ground army vs T ground army when there are lings and mutas and hydras fucking with your units while they try to advance on tanks and even mines. If you want to try to "split" the tech, temp vs robo, then you can go ahead and do that but its very difficult to have one person controlling obs properly for both armies while macroing microing and just doing all that normal stuff, while the other guy is supposed to compensate in terms of temp tech. Most of the time both P's have to get all the techs. It's also pretty unlikely that a P will ever get his expo up vs a TZ team. The few times that any PP teams manage to even get 1 expo up for 1 player it is completely raped a few minutes later by my 6 fac push because I'm able to expand soooo much earlier than the P can once I lay a few mines. I give my ally a couple tanks, he gets his expo too, the P's finally come out...and they can't do shit against us, both with expos, turtled up and seriously outmassing them while they still don't even have expos. It's even worse if you have to tech split, and only one guy has obs and has to have 1 for his choke, 1 for his ally's choke. Yea you MIGHT get to expand right after your obs is out but I expanded 3 minutes ago and your expo is only going to last a minute tops. I wouldn't even say it's really that accurate to say PP is difficult "early" vs TZ...if you want to not die, you won't die vs TZ. It's really easy to defend, actually, cannons or 5 zealot goon. But you'll be stuck and absolutely wrecked in midgame, and there's quite literally nothing you can do about it. TZ vs PP is a free win for us, and we don't even have to try very hard. I honestly think 2 C+ 1v1ers but very competent 2v2ers could beat a PP team with TZ even if both P's were A level 1v1ers. PP is not AS weak vs PZ and ZZ as it is vs TZ, but I think it's still weak. I'd say PP <<< TZ, PP <<PZ, and PP < ZZ with the number of < equaling how much worse. PP vs PZ is bad because it lets the other P tech easily while his ally goes 9p to keep zealots from annoying his ally going goons. There are two options I generally go for PZ vs PP, I like goon/reaver and obs if I see someone going DT (rarely, if ever, goes this late), and occasionally if I'm being lazy and don't want to micro I'll go for DT (weak vs PP, since you need that obs to move around since one is sure to do DT tech). PZ vs PP almost always is able to kill one of the P's or at least really fuck them up with Ol sight and goons to kill zealots on the ramp. This forces both P's to get cannons early, probably before they even get to tech. This is a massive disadvantage. By the time they manage to move out I usually have my reavers, goons, and expo done/near done. They'll have far fewer units because I've been picking off zealots all game as well, if not outright killing them. PP vs ZZ is ok just in the same way TT vs ZZ is, you can kind of play it as a 1v1 and P does better off 1 base than Z does, while only 1 Z is likely able to expand on the ZZ team. P needs significantly more/further tech than T does to "melt" a zerg army though, so they are not able to move out as quickly. | ||
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Shauni
4077 Posts
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
My solution to this from PP is to only lay 2 mines from every vulture I use so that if they do break out and I did stop making enough vults I still have enough mines to lay some more and stop the push past the P's nat choke. A mistake a lot of T's make that let's a PP team do that kind of attack is laying all their mines at the chokes, when in reality its often more psychological; most P's won't try to come out when they know there are mines there, so you can lay just a couple to fake them out and save the rest in case they are smart enough to mine drag to try to get out. And yeah I wasn't trying to brag about beating you, I was just using it as an example that I don't think PP can really ever win vs TZ even if the individuals are better players than the TZ players are. | ||
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
Also I never know when to expand in that matchup. I never feel safe enough to take my nat. And my last question at the moment, when playing PZ v PT, could it be viable to do a lurker build? I usually open 12 hatch, then go muta. I know muta provide good map control but it seems like lurkers could work to me. | ||
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anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
On July 26 2009 04:12 Chaos- wrote: And my last question at the moment, when playing PZ v PT, could it be viable to do a lurker build? I usually open 12 hatch, then go muta. I know muta provide good map control but it seems like lurkers could work to me. I remember metal[x] (A- 2v2 terran) saying to do muta regardless of the matchup because the zerg will always have less units and therefore needs to just abuse mobility and harass as much as possible. Also lurkers splash your ally's units so I don't recommend them personally | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
Smart opponent Z will make his first 6 lings, see you doing nothing with his ol, and go pure drones and catch up to you in muta quickly. Noob will continue making lings and lose to your sunkens because it's easy to build really irritating sunken hatch formations. If you 12p, use this BO: 12p, 11 drone, 12 gas, 11 hatch, then sunkens for when pool finish. Pure drones. Place your hatch to help block any units that try to attack. On Python, you can place the pool so the top right corner makes a diagonal with the extractor's bottom left corner on all spots but 9; then you can place a sunken directly to the right You can expand as soon as you have map control with mutas. If they don't have any anti air, how can they stop you from expanding if you are way ahead in mutas? Abuse your mutas. If you're unsure, wait for your ally's DTs to control the map, and snipe your opponents OLs at your base, any cliffs, and your ally's base. Then he can expand with his tech. PZ vs PT lurker is ok, it can work, but muta provides much better map control and in skilled micro hands can do far more damage. It also lets you strike at the workers of the opponents, which is important because PT relies on both getting expos to be effective, which can be severely limited by worker harass. It also requires a lot more static defense to defend vs mutas, which costs a lot more money. A T can have 6 turrets at his mineral line or 1 at his front for mutas vs lurkers, respectively. Here are some sunken placements I like when I'm turtling, you can swap out any sunken for a spire, in a couple I put like 3 hatches just to show you can put the 2nd in either spot. Make sure you watch your opponent zerg very carefully to avoid being offensive sunkened. It's easy to stop when you know it's coming but if you don't have to it's always better not to have to make a weirdish sunken to stop it. These are all positioned so you can hotkey your drones to something and when enemies come in, maynard the drones to you extractor to then spam stop and fuck with their units and block them. Only problem with any of these is that at 9 any good sunken formation necessarily blocks your drones maynard OUT of the base, so if you were trying to run away and somehow the top sunken between mineral and gas was still alive your drones will go completely stupid and refuse to come out. Hatches below one another are better than horizontally, usually, cause it's easier for sunkens to cover both of them. ![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/zddat1234/SCScrnShot_072509_170435.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/zddat1234/SCScrnShot_072509_170602.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/zddat1234/SCScrnShot_072509_170830.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/zddat1234/SCScrnShot_072509_170948.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a245/zddat1234/SCScrnShot_072509_171319.jpg) | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
If you fuck up though, and don't defend properly, it's possible you can lose cause he simply won't have enough units to help you vs 3 gate zealot + mass lings. It really depends. If he has been going 2 gate zealot the entire time and you barely survive an all in, he can give you 3-4 and it's fine. He can also send you his first zealot to help your sunkens if you can manage it, this makes a huge difference in close fights. Both of you need to be capable of properly gauging the number of units your opponents have and defending with the minimum necessary. If you end up making 19 sunkens your tech won't be any faster. Don't 3 gate unless your ally goes 9 pool, otherwise neither of you will be coming out of your bases. The 12p is too slow and lets them contain either one of you. Get +1 attack with muta if you are doing more sniping kinda stuff, get +1 carapace if lots of muta vs muta fights, don't get it when it's fairly close, get it when you've got a bit of an advantage in muta numbers. It's not a huge deal like it is in 1v1. | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
A few days ago my partner and I played PZ v ZT. The Zerg and I both opened 9 pool and went really ling heavy early on, both of us getting early speed. My ally went 2 gate (probably should have gone 3, but we didn't know that yet), and the Terran went vult. Basically what happened was the Zerg held off me and my ally long enough for the vults to wreak havoc. When I say he held us off it was more along the lines of him slowly dying and slowly losing a drone or two here or there, but we couldn't do enough damage to really finish him. The vults came out and the guy had speed for them along with some really good micro, so he just plowed through our lings and zealots, then pretty much killed all my allies probes. The Zerg was then able to ling me down far enough for me to leave the game since all of my lings died to those vult. So I guess my question would be what should we typically go for in PZ v ZT? Should the toss get goon relatively early? Should I not get as many lings and tech straight to mutas? I've heard things where the Z can 9 pool and just fight off the other Z while the toss cannons in the T. Does that ever really work? I feel clueless about this matchup and we lose it pretty much every time. | ||
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TheHunter_KPGA
23 Posts
Another question, this is off-topic but do you play hunters? I noticed your ]N[exus tag. | ||
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Light]N[exuS
Hong Kong42 Posts
Chaos- I'll address your stuff when I finally get around to releasing my guide, real life became very busy recently so I haven't finished it. I was in ]N[exus 4 years ago, I just use the tag now for fun. | ||
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Chaos
United States772 Posts
First, I think a general explanation of how 2v2s should work in general would be extremely helpful. Things such as map control are extremely important, but if you could really go into detail about how to get advantages and then how to use them, that would help a lot. Second, A general idea of what to do in common situations. For example, PZ v PZ, both teams go 3 gate and 9 pool. So that makes it pretty even both sides right? So how do you gain an advantage when your opponents are doing the same thing as you? Is there a way to adjust your build to gain an advantage or do you just have to outplay them at that point? I'm just trying to think of what would be most helpful to me as a D+/C- 2v2 player. The way you have gone about answering questions in this thread has already been very helpful. ^_^ | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
=D | ||
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P.Bobbert
United States1 Post
I know you have already given lots of information about these builds, which i greatly appreciate, but i haven't found a solution to our issue. We can normally stand our own very well, in fact, i think we had like a 70 % win ratio at one point. We normally don't have a problem with these mach ups as long as we can get past the beginning. See, if we get rushed, we always loose. The situation is this. My ally gets attacked by zerglings and zealots. The enemy protoss gets a 2 gate which with he makes 3 zealots. Both my ally and the enemy zerg do either a 12 pool or a 9 pool, it doesnt matter which. The enemy presumes to attack my ally before he can place sunkans by his ramp. The enemy attack as he is making his second hatchery by his ramp. It is usually almost done when he gets attacked. Both zergs are generally teching to mutas. When this attack hits, we always loose, as this 8 lings cant beat the enemy 8 lings as well as 3 zealots. This attack also happens before i can pump out any vultures, or medics, so there is nothing I can do to help him. If he instead makes a lot of lings to prottect, then he gets hit by mutas, and we still loose. Thanks in advance | ||
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doktorLucifer
United States855 Posts
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