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Well, I feel like I have a pretty good knowledge of 2v2, having played at least 1000 games at A- or higher on the ICCUP 2v2 ladder. Being A- in 2v2 is not like being A- in 1v1. 2v2 tends to be more about teamplay and experience than being extremely good individually. As an individual player I'd probably be lucky to break B-.
I would like to write a long strategy guide on 2v2, as I like to verbalize my own thoughts on the subject since I tend to do things naturally instead of really analyzing it. It's helpful for me as well as others who might be interested in my advice.
To begin with I thought I'd just make a poll asking for what matchup advice I should write about first. I'm best as a Terran player on a TZ team, but I have played every combo with my partner to quite a great degree (barring TT, so that means TZ, PZ, ZZ, TP, as T P and Z).
If you have any questions about 2v2 I would like to try to answer them, and here's the poll about the first matchup guide I should write:
Poll: Matchup Guide #1
(Vote): TZ vs PZ
(Vote): TZ vs TZ
(Vote): TZ vs TP
(Vote): TZ vs ZZ
(Vote): TZ vs PP
(Vote): TZ vs TT
 
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Me and my friend tried playing some 2v2 as a PT team without any base at all. Did alrightish but any vague/general advice?
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I've got a question: do all teams without a zerg suck as much as everyone says? What makes Zerg so useful in 2v2?
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So I've been playing 2v2 off and on over the years, with stagnate abilities. Highest rank with my partner was something C- last season.
One thing I have a really big problem with, though, is actually the PZ vs PZ matchup (not exactly something you mentioned unfortunately, but any help would be appreciated). To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what my build (as Zerg) should be: I go 9pool speed basically in every MU, and I was wondering whether that is something that should be done.
It seems that I'm easily countered by an overpool, which seems to be growing fairly popular.
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United States4991 Posts
I'd say vs PZ....
I'd like to see some stuff about what you also find counters what you guys are doing, if possible :D
Btw I assume you're Zach?
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TZ vs PZ please, and if you could, can you also add what the PZ could be doing to counter what ure doing? So it's like to 2 sided guide. (For both TZ vs PZ and PZ vs TZ.)
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I would like an overall guide for 2v2, it's really a very uncovered subject as far as guides go, although there are a few floating around. Are you going to try to cover all the combinations, or just as a race in general?
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I would like to learn more about mu specific strats with extensive explanation, specially involving the PZ combo vs others.
For example, when PZ is facing double zerg, I often start arguing with my Z part that I should double stargate corsair, while he says I should always go speed zealots/archon.
On which situation should I go for which?
Thanks in advance 
Looking forward for this guide
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both sides of pz vs tz definitely
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#1 yes this is Zach lol  Haven't played in the last ~3.5 months but I still remember plenty.
I'm just gonna answer the questions in this thread more quickly while I write a more comprehensive TZ vs PZ guide that I'll post in a few days
On July 19 2009 14:24 MiniRoman wrote:
Me and my friend tried playing some 2v2 as a PT team without any base at all. Did alrightish but any vague/general advice?
My vague/general advice for a TP team is you either both go for turtling and getting your expo, because TP team both with nat will beat a ZX team both with nats, or you go for a huge macro 1 base kind of thing, like TP vs TZ where you might have 3 gate goon obs + 4 fac speed vults, and you wait for the obs and speed/mines then move out with a huge group of units and try to kill one either the T or the Z (the TZ T will feel pressured to expand soonish, because it's often his responsibility to get big and be the carry for the game, but occasionally you can see a zerg being the carry with mass mutas. So you can often catch them in the window that they think they can expand with your 1 base-mass). It can be difficult for TZ to scout what the TP team is doing, and if the TP T goes wraiths it completely changes what the T needs to do. If the TP T lets the other team scout him then it's a lot more difficult to win, but it's not too hard to stop since you can wall and ol's cant see anything cause of your marines. Usually when I'm TZ T vs TP I go gols, so sometimes a surprise 4 fac mass vult with 3 gate goon obs can be very difficult to stop. It's also important both you and your ally scout all the time; for example, if the TZ team knew you were gonna do that 1 base mass thing while you wait for obs/speed/mines, a good counter is for the zerg AND terran to expand fast, the T makes tanks only, gives his ally 2 before you move out, the zerg makes 3-4 sunkens, and now your goon/vult won't work vs either of them, and they've both got expos. So if you see them do that, you should both expand as well. If they let the T AND P expand it's almost always over for them.
On July 19 2009 14:32 GhostKorean wrote:
I've got a question: do all teams without a zerg suck as much as everyone says? What makes Zerg so useful in 2v2?
Zerg is important because both of the units used the most in 2v2, lings and mutas, are very mobile and lend themselves to harass and map control. Mutas can come in and attack the mineral line when anyone moves out, they can cross the map much more quickly than other units. Lings can run from one side to the other way faster than say, slow zealots. There's way too many examples to list of whats that mobility comes in handy, but I'm sure you can figure it out. TT and PP are really bad. TP can be pretty decent. However, I'd say that if any team without a Z beats a team with a Z, then they're just straight up better than the Z team. If you had 4 equally good players who were all super good, then the team with Z will always win. This isn't true of ZZ teams though; I think TT and TP both have it pretty easy vs ZZ. However, ZZ will tend to rape any ZX team.
On July 19 2009 14:38 DarkOptik wrote:
So I've been playing 2v2 off and on over the years, with stagnate abilities. Highest rank with my partner was something C- last season.
One thing I have a really big problem with, though, is actually the PZ vs PZ matchup (not exactly something you mentioned unfortunately, but any help would be appreciated). To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what my build (as Zerg) should be: I go 9pool speed basically in every MU, and I was wondering whether that is something that should be done.
It seems that I'm easily countered by an overpool, which seems to be growing fairly popular.
Just a general answer, if you have a more specific question feel free to ask: PZ vs PZ is 95% of the time the same 2 strategies, 9 pool or 12 pool. If you 12 pool, you will be relegated to turtling and going muta most of the time, because your lings will just be too slow to get out to make a difference, forcing your ally to turtle as well. This can be fine, as long as you both are capable of accurately gauging your enemy and what you can and can't get away with. It's important not to overdo your sunkens if you can see they aren't massing to kill you, and are instead expanding or teching or whatever to take advantage of your turtling. Of course, this won't be the case in a 12p vs 12p or something, but that's pretty rare.
9 pool is the most common opening PZ vs PZ, because if possible you want to contain the zerg's lings, and this is the easiest way to do it. If your opponents go 12p, you're guaranteed to be able to contain his lings should he choose to make any, since you can send 1 zealot + 6 lings to his ramp, hold it, maybe kill a drone if you're lucky, and then as soon as 3 zealots get there your allies now 12-15 speedlings can control the other P, and stop him from coming out. If you see your opponent IS massing lings off a 12p, or even a 9p, but you've managed to contain him, a basic rule is that 5 zealots on the ramp (3 in front, 2 in back) is enough to hold way way more than a cost efficient number of lings.
Basic micro rule in 9p zealot vs 9p zealot is to always try to come in at a "T," so that your units are perpendicular to theirs (theirs being the vertical line in the T) so you can flank easily/get more hits in. Always try to let your ally's zealots get targeted before you bring your lings in. Lings are gonna be doing the most damage, but are the most fragile; it's kinda like ultra-ling except the ultras are zealots. This is easy obviously when you're just microing but gets harder when you are actually...playing the game. Haha. Just practice and it becomes kind of second nature.
A final note on 12p...it's quite easy once you get your timings down and scout well. If you are lazy, or don't feel like microing hard, there's nothing wrong at all with 12p into muta. However, it does let the other protoss open with goons if they catch it fast enough, or transition to 3 gate goon quickly. This is difficult to deal with if they do it fast enough because sunkens suck a dick against ranged goons, and your ally won't be able to help you.
Also, this is for the P, but generally it's not a good idea to go goon PZ vs PZ. Most of the time it's a 9p 3gate vs 9p 3 gate, and then both tosses tech to legs and dt before expoing with a few cannons (fewer if you have your ally's OL at your nat). When you go goon, you'll get raped too easily by dts. It's a very common situation in PZ vs PZ for there to be a ton of micro fights in the middle, then the Z's get their mutas out, the P's get their expos, both have DTs, both contain one another, both get robo/obs, and both come out with a large zealot/archon army with their first obs. Sometimes the Z can get OL speed if he's beating the other Z muta vs muta, which is very helpful. So really, going goon early is pretty bad unless it's the situation I described above, vs a turtle zerg where goons will defend vs the 1 hatch fast muta/rape the sunkens. Of course, later, when you've got obs, 2 base, etc, 6-7 range goons in your army are very helpful for dealing with the mass archons both P's will begin to have. Storm is not as good PZ vs PZ, but I might get it sometimes if the enemy mutas are really fucking shit up. Even then, it's better to wait til a bit past midgame before getting it. Getting early storm PZ vs PZ is a waste of money. In big middle fights archons/splash do much more than storm.
On July 19 2009 19:26 Leath wrote:I would like to learn more about mu specific strats with extensive explanation, specially involving the PZ combo vs others. For example, when PZ is facing double zerg, I often start arguing with my Z part that I should double stargate corsair, while he says I should always go speed zealots/archon. On which situation should I go for which? Thanks in advance Looking forward for this guide
If you see that both zergs are early turtling and going for mutas, then you can get 2 stargates (this is rare). What my partner and I like doing PZ vs ZZ is he turtles to muta and I get 1 gate stargate, because it's more common for the zergs to have one guy go fastish muta with lings while the other lings and then they try to hit you early/kill your Z ally. One of them will probably expand as well. The other style PZ vs ZZ is to get really early gates, like 9/10, and your ally mass lings, and you engage in micro fights...this is a much more difficult style of PZ vs ZZ and requires very good micro and very good awareness, timing, and "game sense."
I get 1 stargate (no +1 either) just to ensure that my ally will always win muta vs muta fights vs the zerg who got his mutas (usually the guy who expanded) at the same time as my ally. Even though the guy has 2 gas it takes awhile for that to give him an advantage over my ally, and with my sairs, he can't hope to match my ally until that point. Once my ally is significantly ahead my sairs can be used for killing ols etc. I rarely make over 4 at any time, as that's enough to 100% ensure my ally will win all his fights and get a huge headstart. Once he has that, he can expo pretty easily. I get legs and some dts at the same time, kind of old school PvZ (sair->dt->cannon->expo), although you often don't need any cannons in a 2v2 since it's doubtful the other zerg is gonna have enough hydras/ol speed to make it a real problem. Once your ally is beating the other zerg's mutas and you've got your expo it's a simple matter to win.
Beating ZZ is really just about denying their mobility advantage and then preventing them from expoing more than once. If the zerg who expoed can get 3 bases, or the zerg who didn't expo can get his nat, that's when it can get really difficult. If you cut out their mobility advantage so that they can't translate that into free expos later in the game, then ZZ actually becomes quite bad later on.
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It's gonna be a few days before I finish writing my TZ vs PZ guide, and I will be sure to cover both sides and what counters what as well.
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Funny how things work out
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what do you mean, talk to me
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why, are you going to write another 3rd grade essay psychoanalyzing my motivations?
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If you want to troll me, do so via PM; I've banned you from this blog because it has a purpose and you are clearly here to divert it.
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Vatican City State491 Posts
Can you post a link to your accounts, where you got A- and on which you played 1000 games?
I also find some of the things you wrote dubious - fast expand in PZ vs PZ with DTs? I dont have that much 2v2 experience but I always saw protoss going quite early cannons and 2stargate corsairs to rape the enemy zerg, which lead to corsair vs corsair battles.
As for XZ vs ZZ I always thought that the exanding zerg did not go muta, because it would be simply too slow... despite the fact that the XZ zerg will be probably turtling with sunkens.
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not entirely true, you can expo with zerg and still go mutas O_O
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i dunno wtf essays people are writing about you, but I'd like to see your accounts as well, i might recognize you from the 2x2 ladder page
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On July 20 2009 08:24 closed wrote:
Can you post a link to your accounts, where you got A- and on which you played 1000 games?
I also find some of the things you wrote dubious - fast expand in PZ vs PZ with DTs? I dont have that much 2v2 experience but I always saw protoss going quite early cannons and 2stargate corsairs to rape the enemy zerg, which lead to corsair vs corsair battles.
As for XZ vs ZZ I always thought that the exanding zerg did not go muta, because it would be simply too slow... despite the fact that the XZ zerg will be probably turtling with sunkens.
No, I'm not going to post a link to my accounts, but you can go look at them if you want to...my akas are nazareth, apparition, xiagongguan, krishna, immortality, disgraceful, disturbing, smashed, nirnaeth, honkhonkbeep, littlebigboy, intheautumn, mutemedia. You're not going to see any A-'s in my previous records...you'll see like 8 B's, a few B+'s, etc. I never played for my stats, I played to play. I didn't worry about stat whoring to get an A-, then stop playing on the account and start a new one like half the 2v2 players. I didn't sit around for weeks between games waiting for noobs to finally get to B- so I could bash them for +97 pts to get my A-. I got A- with 80-17 in my last season and I ended it with stats like 150-100 or something 8 weeks later. I played 2v2 for something like 4 seasons, but I haven't played the last full season nor this current season. I don't have any single account with 1000 games alone... I haven't really played SC in ~4 months now, I quit because it was messing with my academics too much. I also really disliked the 2v2 atmosphere. Almost every single "top" player is a complete asshole. If you were to put some sort of recording bot into the 2v2 iccup channel and have it only record lines more than a few letters long, I think you'd be pretty disgusted by how unpleasant it is. Even the Koreans at the top in 2v2 spout broken English curses all the time. I suppose if you're looking for a green icon on one of my accounts, I can't provide it, and you'll just have to take my word for it. If you want to ask metal[x], since he has those green icons, I've played him quite a few times on those names up there and he ought to be able to verify that I am "A-" 2v2 (this is not a huge accomplishment). The koreans who are always high up on the 2v2 ladder - Batista, Hotba, Core, Yan...they are all in aaa clan on Asia, and they played in the CKBTV Hunters 2v2 tournament for that team. They all got completely massacred by guy[sss] and kiss[sss]. It just goes to show that A- in 2v2 on ICCUP is defined only by the lack of real Korean teamplayer interest.
I believe you misread what I said about PZ vs PZ. I did not say you should FE PZ vs PZ. I said a common pattern you'll see in PZ vs PZ is 3 gate zealot + 9p lings fighting in the middle for the first 7-8 minutes while both zergs are teching to spire and both P's get to templar tech, then both Z's fight with mutas while both P's expand and contain one another with dt because there are no speed ols and no robo yet. Both P's try to time their robo so it won't fuck their macro too much but still will allow them to come out before the other P, so there is often a small 3-4 minute lull during this period. And you are watching very noob players if you're somehow seeing sair vs sair in all the PZ vs PZ you watch....sair is fucking terrible in PZ vs PZ and I've literally never ever seen it used past a C- 2v2 level. The description you gave suggests a game where one toss would turtle...go 2 gate sair...and then the other toss counters this by going sairs as well? That would just be like D----- logic.
Expanding zerg can easily go muta and match the XZ zerg's mutas, ESPECIALLY on a ZZ team (suppppper easy to expand, even a 12p expo to muta is still going to be fine vs a fast muta XZ zerg, since 1 hatch muta will be a 12p build), and if he needs to, he can get a couple spores (only if he fucks up his timing badly). After 1 minute or so he'll rape the XZ Zerg if the X race doesn't help at all. ZZ is a tenuous matchup and while ZZ is supposed to imbalanced in 2v2 it's only imba when the players are good...ZZ is pretty damn bad when the players are not both experienced 2v2 players who know what they are doing and have good teamwork. The only way a ZZ team can't have someone expand fast is perhaps vs a smart PZ team, which is when I personally do a 12p expo build, or if the non-expo zerg stupidly does not 9p. Even if the PZ team knows how to deal with the expo early with zealots and lings if their timing is off by anything more than 10 seconds then they won't be able to do anything about it.
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EPT
