EPTA few days ago my partner and I played PZ v ZT. The Zerg and I both opened 9 pool and went really ling heavy early on, both of us getting early speed. My ally went 2 gate (probably should have gone 3, but we didn't know that yet), and the Terran went vult. Basically what happened was the Zerg held off me and my ally long enough for the vults to wreak havoc. When I say he held us off it was more along the lines of him slowly dying and slowly losing a drone or two here or there, but we couldn't do enough damage to really finish him. The vults came out and the guy had speed for them along with some really good micro, so he just plowed through our lings and zealots, then pretty much killed all my allies probes. The Zerg was then able to ling me down far enough for me to leave the game since all of my lings died to those vult.
So I guess my question would be what should we typically go for in PZ v ZT? Should the toss get goon relatively early? Should I not get as many lings and tech straight to mutas? I've heard things where the Z can 9 pool and just fight off the other Z while the toss cannons in the T. Does that ever really work? I feel clueless about this matchup and we lose it pretty much every time.
I realized I never really answered this because I said I'd put it in my guide, since it was such a general question. I'll answer it briefly and go into more detail in a few days.
Quick note: when I say "you" and "your" I'm referring to you being the protoss player, even though you said you're the zerg. I guess I'm just used to being the P/T on a team.
When the Terran on the Z side techs, the #1 goal for the entire game is to get your team's zerg to rape the other team's zerg in muta vs muta. If the TZ team goes mech, then usually the zerg on that team will go fast muta to ensure that they have air control. As you can imagine, if the TZ team has no air control, then the PZ team having mutas can be a huge problem for the T, as he's now forced to make enough goliaths to protect himself/move out while the P is free to go goons.
If the TZ Z does go fast muta while his ally mechsm you can just go 3 gate goon with obs for the P and get muta asap for the Z. You want to pressure the other Z to get your ally ahead. Goons really own sunkens so it's not hard to fuck with the zerg, and the T probably only has vults and mines vs your goon/obs; he won't have enough tanks to actually MOVE, only to defend at that point. Your ally can usually expand as well if you do well enough; the T probably mined you in, maybe he tried to harass your ally (a few well placed sunkens can defeat this), then he almost assuredly expanded, because it's too hard to get enough tanks after a vult opening to actually do anything without an expansion in 2v2.
So, vs a mech opening, you should definitely turtle to muta asap while your ally turtles to obs and mass goon with maybe 5-7 zealots, depending on what you see the other zerg doing. If they go 9p mech then you almost certainly win, because you can just go 12p muta and get map control and air control. If they do go 9p tech then your ally does have to make those 5-7 zealots so he doesn't die to lings, but if they go muta/tech which is a much more common/viable combo, then your ally probably won't even need to make more than 1-3 zealots and can just go straight into 3 gate goon. Muta/ling does own goons but if you have a good number of goons, like 12, which is very easy off 3 gate goon, it takes a lot of lings to take them down (plus he went mutas, and 12 goons can take down a 1 base muta build pretty easily). What I'm saying is that goons are not a problem because the other zerg either won't have enough mutas to matter vs it, or if he went lings first will get pwned by your team's mutas anyways, and the T won't have enough units to move into open ground aggressively vs 12 goons off a vult opening once you've got obs. In other words...scouting is everything. You need to know what openings your opponents are using and then just counter them.
It's much much more common to face MM in PZ vs TZ, which I'll cover in greater detail in my guide in a few days. To answer your last question, it's actually quite common for a P to cannon in the T, or to cannon his ally's ramp so his ally can go fast muta with a good economy and not use drones on defending himself. Just think about the fact that a P can go 2 gate, forge, then have 3 zealots and cannons warping in at the T choke while the T only has 4-5 marines. The 3 zealots will rape that, or at the very least keep him in long enough for the cannons to finish. Meanwhile, the PZ Zerg is 1v1ing the TZ zerg's lings long enough for the cannons to swap. Then you can just take the zealots to hold the ramp of the TZ zerg while the lings go help the cannons, since their speed makes them much better vs marines. P then goes dt/templar tech, can expo, depending on game, the Z can go muta or not, it all depends on what each team is scouting.
Basically...2v2 is scouting. lol
was wondering if you could give me some tips on a TZ vs PZ mach up. I play TZ_T my ally plays TZ_Z. We are around a 2000 in 2v2, and never play 1v1. We play on python
I know you have already given lots of information about these builds, which i greatly appreciate, but i haven't found a solution to our issue. We can normally stand our own very well, in fact, i think we had like a 70 % win ratio at one point. We normally don't have a problem with these mach ups as long as we can get past the beginning. See, if we get rushed, we always loose. The situation is this. My ally gets attacked by zerglings and zealots. The enemy protoss gets a 2 gate which with he makes 3 zealots. Both my ally and the enemy zerg do either a 12 pool or a 9 pool, it doesnt matter which. The enemy presumes to attack my ally before he can place sunkans by his ramp. The enemy attack as he is making his second hatchery by his ramp. It is usually almost done when he gets attacked. Both zergs are generally teching to mutas. When this attack hits, we always loose, as this 8 lings cant beat the enemy 8 lings as well as 3 zealots.
This attack also happens before i can pump out any vultures, or medics, so there is nothing I can do to help him. If he instead makes a lot of lings to prottect, then he gets hit by mutas, and we still loose.
Thanks in advance
Ok, your problem is very simple, haha. Don't ramp hatch TZ vs PZ. A ramp hatch WILL die vs a good team. The only time you can ever ramp hatch is if you 12pool and then you are able to place a sunken so it covers the hatch at the ramp as it is building, and you make lings nonstop the entire time after your pool finishes. Otherwise, zealot/ling is just impossible to hold without the help of sunkens if they choose to pressure you once they see your ramp hatch.
Another consideration is that if you ramp hatch and you end up having it live, but your opponent gets mutas first, then you've got to spore at your main hatch AND your ramp hatch. This can be a real pain in the ass. Sometimes in TZ vs TZ even if you get a chance to ramp hatch it can be better not to if you know you will be behind in muta speed.
Really you only ramp hatch vs a TZ team, when you are on a PZ team. You also can ramp hatch vs PT, TT, etc, depending on what's going on (although I usually take an expo with my 2nd hatch vs those teams).
