EPTNah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this.
Is Soulkey a Bonjwa? Some stats and graphs - Page 4
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NoobSkills
United States1592 Posts
Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this. | ||
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SiarX
49 Posts
On January 03 2025 13:15 NoobSkills wrote: In the era of only one big LAN tournament? With no real proleague though cool high prize pool proleagues team leagues race leagues etc, but no actual team behind them. Outside of the KESPA era? In the time period where players in the RO16 ASL wouldn't have made it out of the preliminaries to get into a RO32 of an OSL/MSL? With this lacking depth and level of competitive excellence? Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this. But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around... | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2197 Posts
3 titles in a row too stronkerino | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands519 Posts
On January 03 2025 13:15 NoobSkills wrote: In the era of only one big LAN tournament? With no real proleague though cool high prize pool proleagues team leagues race leagues etc, but no actual team behind them. Outside of the KESPA era? In the time period where players in the RO16 ASL wouldn't have made it out of the preliminaries to get into a RO32 of an OSL/MSL? With this lacking depth and level of competitive excellence? Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this. Players now are better than Kespa era. We are 12 years, almost 13 years into the future. Mechanically players are about the same, a bit better in some regards because they kept progressing their methods of doing things, but moreso because strategy and understanding of the game is so much better than it was back then. The eco-system is different and the pros no longer need teams. Also fans here on TL greatly overstate how some players "barely play and dont even practice much". People keep saying rain barely played yet he had 100+ eloboard recorded matches and 300-350 total ladder games and another massive amount of offstream practice games (he would take one to two days off multiple times during the season to grind offline games of practice vs others). Only player who actually sandbagged in the entire lineup of qualified players in the past few years was Sea in ASL17 where he took a whole two weeks off just before his play day to do variety stream content with his team. SSL1 he actually put in hours on ladder, put in a good number of quality spons and did some offstream practice (like one or two days but its something). He did get super lucky in Ro24 though and should never have made it through because he was objectively the worst player in that season. The issue is that because the players have progressed so much they have become capable of absolutely making their opponent look "bad" once they get a lead over them, to the point it can feel like their opponent cant do anything. Some players can shut down every single option their opponent has when in the lead. It also didnt help we did get some massive mistakes being made by some players. YSC flying his shuttle into the range of a turret he didnt see just outside of his screen of vision, and motive being too greedy with his actually good strategy and ruining his own chances. | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State80 Posts
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around... Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Oct 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. Edit: Corrected date of ASL16 finals | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands519 Posts
On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote: Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State80 Posts
On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6455 Posts
On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote: I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. | ||
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SiarX
49 Posts
I mean, following that logic even Serral is not a bonjwa in Starcraft 2. | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State80 Posts
On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just two* weeks of proleague was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings. ( * roughly 2 weeks of proleague. It was 3 weeks after he started streaming) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6455 Posts
On January 05 2025 10:28 cheesehuehue wrote: I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just 3 weeks in pro-league was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings. Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6455 Posts
On January 05 2025 09:32 SiarX wrote: So you think that there can be no new bonjwa simply because there is less competition around? Sounds kinda unfair to clearly the best player in the world now. Not his fault that there are not so many strong players around nowaday. But Starcraft still is a competitive scene. I mean, following that logic even Serral is not a bonjwa in Starcraft 2. Considering Serral is a foreigner and has never been in a Korea team house etc. And he Won blizzcon when the sc2 scene was still pretty healthy and continued to dominate. He is the best SC2 Legacy of the void player without question. Does that makes him the best sc2 player ever ? Could be. Personally i respect Maru legacy being good in almost every era. While is true that serral clear the floor with him these days. But serral just being a foreigner and acomplishing what he did is a freak of nature. Honestly just for that he should be the best sc2 player ever. Just look how the Korean sc2 scene become less dominant when They stopped the team houses and all of that structure around them. | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State80 Posts
On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: FlaSh shape wasnt as bad Well, that is just not true. These are Flash's results the first two days streaming (after 2-3? months playing on ladder). It includes losses to Leta, Free, Killer, and Stork. The 3-game win streak is against Pusan. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/r8bsYuh.png) The next few days he has long win streaks against unworthy opponents, but keeps consistently losing against pro players. On Nov 1st, he lost 0-4 to rain. By Nov 09, he manages to beat Soulkey twice (but loses tree times). On Nov 12, he starts to rise to the top of the ELO ranking, with a win streak that included games against JyJ, Bisu, Snow, and Soulkey. He has stayed near the top of the rankings since then. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ElowvzY.png) | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6455 Posts
On January 05 2025 13:59 cheesehuehue wrote: Well, that is just not true. These are Flash's results the first two days streaming (after 2-3? months playing on ladder). It includes losses to Leta, Free, Killer, and Stork. The 3-game win streak is against Pusan. + Show Spoiler + The next few days he has long win streaks against unworthy opponents, but keeps consistently losing against pro players. On Nov 1st, he lost 0-4 to rain. By Nov 09, he manages to beat Soulkey twice (but loses tree times). On Nov 12, he starts to rise to the top of the ELO ranking, with a win streak that included games against JyJ, Bisu, Snow, and Soulkey. He has stayed near the top of the rankings since then. + Show Spoiler + If im not mistaken the first time Flash Played proleague was 10/26. Now this is all about interpretation but to me someone that played his first competitive games mid october and is already dominating at the start of november is pretty clear his shape wasnt so bad. Specially if you compared it when he comeback from SC2. But hey maybe for you good shape means instantly beating everyone. Up to you there. | ||
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SiarX
49 Posts
On January 05 2025 13:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Considering Serral is a foreigner and has never been in a Korea team house etc. And he Won blizzcon when the sc2 scene was still pretty healthy and continued to dominate. He is the best SC2 Legacy of the void player without question. Does that makes him the best sc2 player ever ? Could be. Personally i respect Maru legacy being good in almost every era. While is true that serral clear the floor with him these days. But serral just being a foreigner and acomplishing what he did is a freak of nature. Honestly just for that he should be the best sc2 player ever. Just look how the Korean sc2 scene become less dominant when They stopped the team houses and all of that structure around them. Still, is not bonjwa supposed to be any player who consistently dominates entire pro scene? Regardless of how many talents are left. Note btw that Serral started dominating SC2 only when greatest players have left already. And him being a foreigner is not nearly as much achievement as it would have been in brood war, because Blizzard supported foreign pro scene way better than in BW, while Korean scene (because of team houses, yes) was clearly weaker than in BW. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands519 Posts
On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible. Except Fantasy played 1000+ ladder games and a bunch of practice games in the 6 months leading up to the tournament. And who knows who he talked to about the game because it all happened off stream. It was said by pros Fantasy was part of JyJ's practice team for ASL finals. He was more active than anyone else during that half year. Also don't forget that in online play he wasnt nearly as dominant as he was at the Saudi tournament. The Saudi tournament is a small sample size. and a player can, by your own words about Ult battle results varying so much, look either amazing or not amazing. It is only over large sample sizes that we can determine a player's shape and potential. Ssak for example all killed in KCM last week beating Hero, Soulkey, Mini, and best. Is ssak objectively better than them? Or did he overperform? did the others under perform? did he have build order advantage? also another example in regards to turnover rate in the professional scene. League of legends has a thousand times the player base starcraft has, yet we see mainly the same pros return and stay at the top for the past 7 years. Yet in the first 5 years of pro league of legends we saw a very high turnover rate with pros having very short pro careera because new better players rose up really often. And in large that was because the pro scene, the skill, and the undersranding of the game was still developing. This resulted in the pros of 2012 being outdated and outskilled in 2013, and then the same in 2014 and 2015. But as the understanding of the game peaked out, and maximum skill potential was reached and players could not be more talented than they already were, and not better than they already were in terms of skill, we saw a much lower turnover rate with players now having long pro careers at the top and sometimes being top 10 players for over 5 years. We saw something similar in starcraft in 2004-2007. Very few pros from 2005-2007 were able to compete in 2008-2012. But most from 2008 competed in 2012 and some still compete today. I think something similar happened. Play changed over 2006-2007 to the point most going into 2008 could no longer compete because they were outclassed by more talented players. Yet we didnt see this happen after 2008 because they all had maximum talent. Thats also why pros from this time period do well when they return. They have maxed out talent. and one more factor plays into this. Starcraft in Korea has been replaced by League of Legends as the game to pursue. all the talent that in 2003-2010 would go to starcraft now largely goes to league of legends. Yet even with all that talent going towards league of legends and new players aiming to become pros, we still see the same pros maintain their positions for years. New players are hardly breaking through. Or look at pro sports where the top layer of pros have long 5-10 year long careers sitting at the top, new players rarely replacing them until they retire or are too old for peak physical performance. based on your argument they would have to be replaced by younger more talented pros every 1-3 years yet we dont reallt see that happen. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6455 Posts
On January 06 2025 02:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Except Fantasy played 1000+ ladder games and a bunch of practice games in the 6 months leading up to the tournament. And who knows who he talked to about the game because it all happened off stream. It was said by pros Fantasy was part of JyJ's practice team for ASL finals. He was more active than anyone else during that half year. Also don't forget that in online play he wasnt nearly as dominant as he was at the Saudi tournament. The Saudi tournament is a small sample size. and a player can, by your own words about Ult battle results varying so much, look either amazing or not amazing. It is only over large sample sizes that we can determine a player's shape and potential. Ssak for example all killed in KCM last week beating Hero, Soulkey, Mini, and best. Is ssak objectively better than them? Or did he overperform? did the others under perform? did he have build order advantage? also another example in regards to turnover rate in the professional scene. League of legends has a thousand times the player base starcraft has, yet we see mainly the same pros return and stay at the top for the past 7 years. Yet in the first 5 years of pro league of legends we saw a very high turnover rate with pros having very short pro careera because new better players rose up really often. And in large that was because the pro scene, the skill, and the undersranding of the game was still developing. This resulted in the pros of 2012 being outdated and outskilled in 2013, and then the same in 2014 and 2015. But as the understanding of the game peaked out, and maximum skill potential was reached and players could not be more talented than they already were, and not better than they already were in terms of skill, we saw a much lower turnover rate with players now having long pro careers at the top and sometimes being top 10 players for over 5 years. We saw something similar in starcraft in 2004-2007. Very few pros from 2005-2007 were able to compete in 2008-2012. But most from 2008 competed in 2012 and some still compete today. I think something similar happened. Play changed over 2006-2007 to the point most going into 2008 could no longer compete because they were outclassed by more talented players. Yet we didnt see this happen after 2008 because they all had maximum talent. Thats also why pros from this time period do well when they return. They have maxed out talent. and one more factor plays into this. Starcraft in Korea has been replaced by League of Legends as the game to pursue. all the talent that in 2003-2010 would go to starcraft now largely goes to league of legends. Yet even with all that talent going towards league of legends and new players aiming to become pros, we still see the same pros maintain their positions for years. New players are hardly breaking through. Or look at pro sports where the top layer of pros have long 5-10 year long careers sitting at the top, new players rarely replacing them until they retire or are too old for peak physical performance. based on your argument they would have to be replaced by younger more talented pros every 1-3 years yet we dont reallt see that happen. I dont think u got my point about UB. In UB we were getting those results of 7-2 6-3 inflated scores.Going both ways. And it is just the nature of already losing the series and being down so many games you tend to just play to be over it. League of legends is still getting new talent. I dont follow the scene close but do you still find new players on his early 20. Anyway my point is that some run like what Fantasy did would have been impossible in the Kespa era. Everything was just way more competitive. Progamers didnt touch ladder for competitive reasons. The real practice was playing with their own team and other team scrims. Brother do you know well that these days progamers are not even playing that much. Effort made the ASL semis without taking any round serious. I saw him playing those funny FS 2v2 maps with special powers every night. Progamer these days are basically doing what you are saying. Just showing up with their maxed skill cap everyday. Yeah sure in the Kespa era you could hear stories about NaDa also chilling and Chojja too and still doing great. But is not even fair to compare that era to this era. Their sole goal was to play games. At that age with not worries and just focusing on one thing to their state of mind now is not even comparable. Healthy hands. Good eyes lol. Anyway i still respect if you think different. You are also emotionally invested to all of this so it makes sense. That said What SK has acomplished is incredible. And i doubt any other zerg will match this any time soon. Specially now that FlaSh is back. I still hope Soma can win one ASL. WHat SK is doing and the way he is beating his opponents on this trash zerg maps is honestly awesome. Every zerg is struggling right now and SK just keep winning. But this Bonjwa term being used these days is just weird. But At the end of the day back then the term Bonjwa started from the people and if in 2025 people wanna call SK Bonjwa is their right too. I just dont share it. We are basically saying that Lebron is the goat now but in the future there will not be more NBA and they are playing in Parks and Some random kid win with his team his local tourney 3 times in a row. There is no way that kid reached Lebron levels. The analogy is kinda trash but do u get the point. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands519 Posts
On January 06 2025 03:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: I dont think u got my point about UB. In UB we were getting those results of 7-2 6-3 inflated scores.Going both ways. And it is just the nature of already losing the series and being down so many games you tend to just play to be over it. League of legends is still getting new talent. I dont follow the scene close but do you still find new players on his early 20. Anyway my point is that some run like what Fantasy did would have been impossible in the Kespa era. Everything was just way more competitive. Progamers didnt touch ladder for competitive reasons. The real practice was playing with their own team and other team scrims. Brother do you know well that these days progamers are not even playing that much. Effort made the ASL semis without taking any round serious. I saw him playing those funny FS 2v2 maps with special powers every night. Progamer these days are basically doing what you are saying. Just showing up with their maxed skill cap everyday. Yeah sure in the Kespa era you could hear stories about NaDa also chilling and Chojja too and still doing great. But is not even fair to compare that era to this era. Their sole goal was to play games. At that age with not worries and just focusing on one thing to their state of mind now is not even comparable. Healthy hands. Good eyes lol. Anyway i still respect if you think different. You are also emotionally invested to all of this so it makes sense. That said What SK has acomplished is incredible. And i doubt any other zerg will match this any time soon. Specially now that FlaSh is back. I still hope Soma can win one ASL. WHat SK is doing and the way he is beating his opponents on this trash zerg maps is honestly awesome. Every zerg is struggling right now and SK just keep winning. But this Bonjwa term being used these days is just weird. But At the end of the day back then the term Bonjwa started from the people and if in 2025 people wanna call SK Bonjwa is their right too. I just dont share it. We are basically saying that Lebron is the goat now but in the future there will not be more NBA and they are playing in Parks and Some random kid win with his team his local tourney 3 times in a row. There is no way that kid reached Lebron levels. The analogy is kinda trash but do u get the point. Better analogy would be that they no longer play in Large stadiums but in smaller stadiums. Competition has moved online because that's the best way to compete in the modern era. It happens in a lot of other pro-esports. Also look at Super Smash Brothers Melee. Insanely technical game yet we still see some of the old dogs play just as technical as the new blood that now reigns. And we have had some "new players" rise to the top in Brood war. There's some players who were pros but never did anything, or weren't good enough yet. Royal, JyJ, Soma(pro-license no team), Soulkey, Rain, Speed, etc. Also the bigger reason new players don't break through is purely a reason I talked about with Sziky. New players have to invest large amounts of money to participate in the pro scene. Proleague is invitation only, and they only invite people who can add money to the prize pool, either their own money or money from their viewers/fans. Most Amateurs aiming to break through don't have this money. The same goes for Sponsor Matches. These amateurs NEED coaching and play-time exposure against the pros, because without they won't improve beyond their current level. This effectively keeps the Amateurs stuck in the amateur level, and the pros at the pro level. So yes I agree with you in the sense that having pro teams recruit and train amateurs does allow more of the new players/amateurs to grow into the pro level. That exact thing is now gone in the remastered era. But I really don't think its now less competitive because the pros are now making MORE money from their streaming activities than they were as pro players. Proleague prize pools are sometimes massive. The female streamers in mixed proleague also bring large amounts of money into the prize pools. There's no time to slack off when there's a 1000$ waiting for you if you win a proleague. Another large component that didn't exist in the Kespa era is the ability to improve from watching livestreams and the information sharing potential these livestreams have if you know Korean. Pros discuss stuff during proleagues beside the joking they do. It also gives a direct perspective into HOW the better players do their things, how they organize their sequence of actions or and etc. These are all things that would be purely limited to the players in the team house. and even within the team house players would keep secrets from one another. Now there's almost no secrecy. | ||
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cheesehuehue
Vatican City State80 Posts
On January 05 2025 20:08 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: ... someone that played his first competitive games mid october and is already dominating at the start of november is pretty clear his shape wasnt so bad... You completely missed the point. Flash objectively sucked the first few days he streamed, losing to the likes of free, killer, leta and non-peak Stork, despite having been playing on ladder for a few months. HOWEVER, after participating in pro-league for just ~2 weeks, he achieved a 6-game win streak consisting of JyJ, Bisu, Snow, Soulkey, Bisu, Bisu. The point being that participating in the pro-league is what made him improve so quickly. What I (and I think RJB, too) am arguing is that participating in proleague is in fact extremely beneficial to a player's skills because they get to analyze and discuss strategies in real time. For somewhat like Flash, that environment allows him to see how other players deal with builds that he is not familiar with because of his 3-year break. In other words, the claim that "nowadays pros just play 2-3 games daily therefore they are not as skilled as before" is nonsense. Pros play fewer games, but spend a lot of time analyzing games, and not just with the same teammates over and over again, but with the whole pro scene. Also, it is not even true that pros only play 2-3 games daily. Sometimes they play bo7 or bo9 series before proleague, and usually play ladder before proleague, too. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands519 Posts
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