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Vatican City State90 Posts
There's been a lot of discussion about this topic, so I thought I'd compare the results of the top players for the last two years.
1. Introduction
I think not enough people are discussing about the difference between skills and performance. What is a Bonjwa? The most skilled player or the player with the best performance (i.e. results)? And if we talk about results, we need to assign a weight to online vs offline performance, how much weight does each carry?
Measuring skills is hard because they it is subjective. Performance (results), on the other hand, are much more quantifiable. Here I compare Soulkey's performance against the top players of each race, with the caveat that performance is an imperfect indicator of skill. For instance, Shuttle is an ASL champion, while Snow is not. In the recent SSL, Action got eliminated by Sea, and in ASL17 Light got eliminated by Shuttle, and Queen, an ASL double champ, didn't even qualify.
Note: I won't try to convince anyone about how to define who is a Bonjwa, nor of the relevance of online vs offline performance. That would be a fruitless uphill battle.
2. Stats and graphs
2.1. Elo score
In a previous post I showed that by far the best performing players up to 2023 had been Snow, Light and Soma, with Soulkey joining them starting in 2024. For completeness sake, I share an updated version of that figure, comparing the 28-day moving-average Elo score of the top two players of each race (if you are not convinced they are the best players of each race, check the post linked above)
Top two/three players of each race:
+ Show Spoiler +
Now let's remove the clutter and focus on the top dogs: Snow, Light, Soma, and Soulkey:
As we can see, Soma used to perform much better than Soulkey, until he started his military service in December 2023 (?). My takeaway from this is that Soulkey still needs to prove himself as the top Zerg once Soma returns.
2.2. Win rate per match up
However, the Elo score doesn't give us a full picture of the performance of a player. So I calculated the win rate % against each race in moving windows of 4 months (where the curves give big steps, the sample size is very small, so the values in those regions should be taken with a grain of salt.
To make the figures below (matchup win %), I only considered the top 16 players, trying to keep a balanced proportion (5P, 5T, 6Z):
- Protoss: Snow, Bisu, Mini, Best, Stork.
- Terran: Light, Rush, Royal, Sharp and JyJ.
- Zerg: Soulkey, Soma, Queen, Hero, Action, Jaedong
- Light:
- Snow
- Soma
- Soulkey
The first, and expected, takeaway is that Light and Snow have shown a level of domination in the mirror matchups that Soma and Soulkey can only dream of. Note: Soma's high win rate % against Zerg in the beginning of 2023 is due to the small sample size, e.g. if you win 3 out out 4 matches, your win rate will be 75%, however this curve is later stabilized in the second quarter of 2023 (the number of ZvZ is very low).
The second takeaway is that Snow consistently dominated all matchups during 2023. In 2024, he has continued to dominate in PvT and PvP, however, his win rate against Zerg has just been slightly above average, if not average. Light and Soma on the other hand, only managed to dominate in two of the three match-ups in 2023. In 2024, the TvT data is too sparse to arrive to any conclusions. Light has improved a lot his TvP during 2024, however, his TvZ dropped dramatically during the first half of 2024, only to recently rise again.
The third takeaway is that Soulkey's domination started only in the second quarter of 2024. From then on, he has improved tremendously in ZvP, with a never-ending upward trend. His ZvT winrate saw a huge increase in Q2-Q3, only to drop to barely around 55% in the last two or three months. People have been attributing this to the map pool change, however, I am not completely convinced. Let's take Radeon as a benchmark, one of the most balanced maps. Since August 1st (roughly when Soulkey starts to drop his performance against Terran), he has won only 1 out of 12 matches against Light in Radeon. I won't delve deeper on the impact of the map pool on the match-ups win% because I don't have time for that.
2.3. Win rate against other top players
Again, for completeness sake, I calculated the win rate against each of the top 16 players mentioned above (ignore the mirror match-ups because the sample size is too small and thus unreliable). For each player, I only considered opponents against whom they had played at leas 100 games. The data are somewhat messy and erratic because of the small sample sizes within each window, so I will just share the figures with a spoiler tag to avoid overwhelming the reader with messy figures unless they choose to see them.
- Light:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Snow:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Soma:
+ Show Spoiler +
- Soulkey:
+ Show Spoiler +
Notably, Soulkey has a <50% winning rate against Light in the recent months. Weirdly enough, no one is talking about it. Soulkey maintains a winning rate > 50% against all other players with a big enough sample size to be considered here. Interestingly, his win rate against Snow in the last 2 or three of months is high (55-62%), but not crazy high as we would be led to believe by the results of SSL.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
Kind of off-topic, but I was surprised to see how well Bisu has been performing against Zerg during 2024. I knew he famously has the best PvZ, but still, was surprised by the difference between him and Snow.
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winning 3 asls in a row = bonjwa, the gap between his skill vs the field made him earn it
winning 3 asls in a row without the most dominant player playing in them = adds a * to it
we'll see about the * once flash competes and how well soulkey does, they're by far the 2 most dominant modern day players tho
and obv at this lvl of play only offline tourney results matter, no1 cares about ur winrate when ur sitting comfy at home playing with no pressure
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On November 05 2024 09:56 TT1 wrote:
no1 cares about ur winrate
No one?
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On November 05 2024 10:31 cheesehuehue wrote:No one?
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results
but yes online record is a sign of skill lvl, it puts u on the map.. but winning the biggest offline event is confirmation of your skill + being able to deal with all the other variables/intangibles that come with "real competition"
doing that repetitively is a sign of a dominant player that has the complete package, banjo user
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United States1654 Posts
You couldn't have at least waited a few days with such a spoilery title eh?
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Bisutopia19175 Posts
He’s not there yet, but def on the verge imo. If JD doesn’t get to be a bonjwa then the bar is higher than SKs current stats.
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Bro, I swear the definition of Bonjwa has been so bastardized to fit anyones agenda. No one fucking cares about winrate. Otherwise you would have ALL of TBLS be Bonjwa. However, anyone from TBLS at any point in time were not HEAVILY favored against one another. Flash isnt especially since Effort could hold his own in 2010. A Bonjwa is about DOMINANCE, not some winrate because TBLS were farming some noobs.
You can be the GOAT but it doesnt mean that you were a Bonjwa in your era too. GOATness depends heavily on winrate and titles. Bonjwaness depends more heavily on how good your opponents in your era of dominance were. There is a reason the GOATs of each race were during the TBLS era, and nobody really during the Savior era (Nal_ra and an aging OOv lmao)
A Bonjwa is if the player is heavily favored against anyone for some longer period of time. Nobody even agreed on how long but anyone agrees that Savior is the clearest of Bonjwas, who was the CLEAR favorite against everyone until Bisu/FBH. There is a reason he was called Ma Bonjwa.
Soulkey is arguably close to a Bonjwa since he is favored against anyone right now. Not sure about heavily favored (maybe) against anyone.
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 05 2024 12:12 BisuDagger wrote:
He’s not there yet, but def on the verge imo. If JD doesn’t get to be a bonjwa then the bar is higher than SKs current stats.
I’d argue he’s not even equivalent to Kespa era Bisu, never mind Jaedong.
Look you’re putting in great results in what remains. But there’s not all that much competition, the second you beat Light most thought nobody else could touch you and correctly.
You’ve no Flash, you’ve no Soma, or Larva. If we’re going a bit further back you’ve no Fantasy, you’ve no Janbgi, players who were winning the big titles at the tail end of the Kespa era
For me by all means, best player of this era, absolutely,
But you can’t draw equivalence with peak Kespa era, nor honorifics spawned from that era.
It would be ridiculous to call Soulkey a Bon Jovi for feasting on a diminished scene while Jaedong isn’t despite going pretty much toe to toe with Flash for years at the absolute peak of the game
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United States42095 Posts
On November 05 2024 12:12 BisuDagger wrote:
He’s not there yet, but def on the verge imo. If JD doesn’t get to be a bonjwa then the bar is higher than SKs current stats.
JD's problem was that he coexisted with Flash.
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You talk about dominance, but then Soulkey only needing to be heavily favored. The real issue IMO is the big events aren't as big, there isn't 2 individual events running at the same time while a team league is also going on. I guess you could cite current day proleagues and KCM or whatever you want, but they're nowhere near as official as they were back then as not everyone is in them. Soulkey has a good run going, and he is IMO dominating, but the amount he can dominate is limited by lack of events. He'd have to keep doing it for a lot longer for them to be equal or perhaps someone would need very good statistics on pro league, which might be the case, but how do you value that?
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On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results
I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group.
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As for the bonjwa talk I personally has no interest in because it's a Korean thing so let the Koreans decide, if they ever do - but I doubt we would ever reach a consensus since we're not living in the pro era anymore. They're probably now more interested in the dramas between the SC universities rather than debating about Soulkey 's bonjwa status lol.
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SoCal8908 Posts
On November 05 2024 13:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 12:12 BisuDagger wrote:
He’s not there yet, but def on the verge imo. If JD doesn’t get to be a bonjwa then the bar is higher than SKs current stats. JD's problem was that he coexisted with Flash.
Kinda feel like we can't give Soulkey bonjwa status until we see them play. It would be really spicy to see them in groups.
Either way, Soulkey is on the verge, but I kinda wanna see someone else win next SSL after this last one :p
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This is so funny! There are 4 Terran Bonjwas and 1 Zerg according to this liquipedia page:
 Bonjwa
If we can agree Tesagi exists, then have all the Terran Bonjwas you want. (In that it's the race they picked that made them Bonjwas)
OR we can get real and include JaeDong, EffOrt and Zero (Queen) in there for good measure. Maybe even a Protoss or two...
Some1 outta update that Bonjwa page kek
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On November 05 2024 16:14 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group.
i literally said it's a indication of skill lvl but no top player is gonna consider another player as being the best just from their online play
it's just a sign of potential, potential is turned into reality when you're able to perform when it matters the most
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 06 2024 00:26 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2024 16:14 TMNT wrote:On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group. i literally said it's a indication of skill lvl but no top player is gonna consider another player as being the best just from their online play it's just a sign of potential, potential is turned into reality when you're able to perform when it matters the most
Do players not actually earn more from these various online leagues than the likes of ASL these days?
Personally hey call me old-fashioned I like those classic style tournaments to really separate the wheat from the chaff. I can get invested in them as a viewer in a way I just can’t with like other formats
But if that’s where the money is, is that not where the incentive to perform is?
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On November 06 2024 00:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:26 TT1 wrote:On November 05 2024 16:14 TMNT wrote:On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group. i literally said it's a indication of skill lvl but no top player is gonna consider another player as being the best just from their online play it's just a sign of potential, potential is turned into reality when you're able to perform when it matters the most Do players not actually earn more from these various online leagues than the likes of ASL these days? Personally hey call me old-fashioned I like those classic style tournaments to really separate the wheat from the chaff. I can get invested in them as a viewer in a way I just can’t with like other formats But if that’s where the money is, is that not where the incentive to perform is?
respect from competition is different than earning money, money is just the outcome of going through the process of improving at something to ultimately become one of the best in the field
there's many levels within any game/discipline, to reach the top you have to incrementally go up the skill tree, like any competition you have city leagues/then provincial/national/international etc.
in BW courage used to be the equivalent of proving yourself as being the best amateur (basically ladder players proving that they can compete offline when there's pressure), when you prove yourself there you become a practice partner for better players, as you improve you play in online tours and try to win there (top players don't view this as real competition cus there's no real pressure, many won't compete in these tours)
when you're viewed as being competitive enough to play vs top players there's spon, spon is just a way to sustain high lvl practice for the best players (basically players get paid for playing standard practice games, before players got a salary to do this), again there's no pressure on the line here so it's not viewed as being true representation of skill, many players hide builds for example (this is where most players make their money but it's basically the practice/work side of things, it's not actual pressure filled competition)
once you're a top player you have the potential to become a championship caliber player, when you're a champ you have the chance to prove that you're the most dominant player by defending your title
there's a reason why at the highest lvl (in 1v1 sports) ppl don't consider themselves as being a real champion until they defend their title, when you're Flash or Khabib or Federer or Tyson everyone is studying you to figure out how to beat you, you become the end goal for the entire field
winning when you're at that level is much harder to do than winning as you're climbing up the skill tree to eventually even become champion, to prove you're by far the best you have to win when you're an open book to everyone
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On November 05 2024 23:30 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:This is so funny! There are 4 Terran Bonjwas and 1 Zerg according to this liquipedia page: BonjwaIf we can agree Tesagi exists, then have all the Terran Bonjwas you want. (In that it's the race they picked that made them Bonjwas) OR we can get real and include JaeDong, EffOrt and Zero (Queen) in there for good measure. Maybe even a Protoss or two... Some1 outta update that Bonjwa page kek
Only Savior was a Bonjwa. Flash and the other terrans were retroactively added by foreigners for no reason at all.
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Can we really call someone a Bonjwa without having the pro structure from the past ?
The competitive circuit from the past. MSL OSL WCG Proleague.
I have no doubt Soulkey is the second most dominant player in the post Kespa era after FlaSh.
On top of that this guy mental is so strong that he was scammed not only one but two times for more than 180 000$. He quit military to fix his deubts and Somehow he became the best starcraft player. You cant make this shit up tbh. This guy offline is something else really. I wonder if these daily proleagues were played offline how insane his score would be.
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 06 2024 01:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:44 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 00:26 TT1 wrote:On November 05 2024 16:14 TMNT wrote:On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group. i literally said it's a indication of skill lvl but no top player is gonna consider another player as being the best just from their online play it's just a sign of potential, potential is turned into reality when you're able to perform when it matters the most Do players not actually earn more from these various online leagues than the likes of ASL these days? Personally hey call me old-fashioned I like those classic style tournaments to really separate the wheat from the chaff. I can get invested in them as a viewer in a way I just can’t with like other formats But if that’s where the money is, is that not where the incentive to perform is? respect from competition is different than earning money, money is just the outcome of going through the process of improving at something to ultimately become one of the best in the field there's many levels within any game/discipline, to reach the top you have to incrementally go up the skill tree, like any competition you have city leagues/then provincial/national/international etc. in BW courage used to be the equivalent of proving yourself as being the best amateur (basically ladder players proving that they can compete offline when there's pressure), when you prove yourself there you become a practice partner for better players, as you improve you play in online tours and try to win there (top players don't view this as real competition cus there's no real pressure, many won't compete in these tours) when you're viewed as being competitive enough to play vs top players there's spon, spon is just a way to sustain high lvl practice for the best players (bassically players get paid for playing standard practice games), again there's no pressure on the line here so it's not viewed as being true representation of skill, many players hide builds for example once you're a top player you have the potential to become a championship caliber player, when you're a champ you have the chance to prove that you're the most dominant player by defending your title there's a reason why at the highest lvl (in 1v1 sports) ppl don't consider themselves as being a real champion until they defend their title, when you're Flash or Khabib or Federer or Tyson everyone is studying you to figure out how to beat you, you become the end goal for the entire field winning when you're at that level is much harder to do than winning as you're climbing up the skill tree to eventually even become champion, to prove you're by far the best you have to win when you're an open book to everyone
Sure but is that how the current top BW crop think?
I don’t mean to pick on Snow incidentally, but just an example. Is it Snow is a fucking spon and online monster, goddamn, or is it ‘haha Snow isn’t that good sure he can’t win an ASL?’
It feels as a relative scene noob the economics of the current scene have pulled focus away from Starleague equivalents.
There is a competitive honour and prestige element sure, but if the pro scene is earning more money off random spon matches and SC universities is that focus really going to be there?
It’s just one guy, and sure he’s got fingers in other pies, but he’s a Championship tier player on his day. You still had folks asking Rain if he was going to actually practice and take ASL seriously
Such a thing would have been unfathomable to even ask in the Kespa days. Indeed, it’d be the same in any SC2 premier going now
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BW competition at the highest lvl now is definitely much weaker than vs the Kespa days, that's how a player like Sea who has 0 practice is able to qualify into ASL and even make it through the first group stage
real competition happens when there's an endless amount of players entering the field (yes today's skill lvl is higher but the intensity of playing in a pro system with endless new players is different)
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 06 2024 01:53 TT1 wrote:
BW competition at the highest lvl now is definitely much weaker than vs the Kespa days, that's how a player like Sea who has 0 practice is able to qualify into ASL and even make it through the first group stage
real competition happens when there's an endless amount of players entering the field
Be that is it may I’m more asking how the current crop prioritise a tournament like SSL versus other competitions.
Is ASL still a Starleague and if not monetarily, in prestige terms the big, big prize or are players happy enough just earning doing sponmatches and SC university and if they have a good ASL run it’s a neat bonus?
As an outsider, a relative latecomer to BW and not a massive consumer of other content, for me I absolutely get sucked into every game of an ASL.
But is that really the focus of the current player base I guess is what I’m asking
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In general BW players today don't practice as hard because they don't need to, there's no new players coming in so the game is becoming more and more specialized, so the value on competition weakens and talented players can coast and just make money (relative to the other players because the field is closed off).
So ya bonjwa today means less than bonjwa in the 2000's but ultimately BW is still a very hard (and rewarding) game so being recognized as that caliber of player has a lot of value to competitors. It's hard to speculate on these things tho unless you're living it but that's my sense of it.
The question you're asking has diff value to diff players, the fiercest competitors will value the biggest tournament. Everything around the biggest tournament is bonus and what enables them/fuels them to practice. To be the best at something (SK/Flash) you need both internal and external motivation (with enough talent u can actually be good with 1 of those things but to be the best you need both, i suspect many oldschool BW pros only have 1 of those motivators now), that's how players get motivated enough to become dominant.
So as long as you have guys like SK/Flash then it's safe to assume that competition (at the highest lvl) is still prioritized in the pro scene and there's ppl who still have the hunger to be dominant. Imo that's how you know the biggest tourney still has the most value to the top players, cus there's talented players who have enough motivation to still be dominant.
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United States33122 Posts
What is a Bonjwa?
It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used.
TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen).
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Take away the players' abilities to read the crowd during a game. I think one-directional glass would be the best bet.
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hard to call anyone a "bonjwa" these days considering the overall state of professional brood war scene, imo.. but he definitely has some "bonjwa characteristics" if that makes sense.
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Does Soulkey get a Golden Mouse or has that long since been retired?
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On November 06 2024 06:47 Mistakes wrote:
Does Soulkey get a Golden Mouse or has that long since been retired?
He got some special Throphy
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If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ.
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ.
If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here
I mean, hero didn’t win it like
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I'm unsure but my god Soulkey has looked amazing. Some of these matches are mind bending really. Dude is a savage and I hope he makes it to that status.
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On November 06 2024 11:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ. If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here I mean, hero didn’t win it like
If the outcome of a single game is enough to completely change the argument or question of whether sk is a Bonjwa or not, then the answer is a simple NO, he is not a Bonjwa.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
I'm a Soulkey fan, but I'm also a big critic. I don't think he has proven himself against Light. Light has been consistently beating Soulkey in the last few months, and that is very clear from the graphs in the first post.
To put it more clearly: If we ask Light whether Soulkey is better than him (and now I am talking about skills, not about performance/results), does anyone really think he will say Soulkey is better than him? No freaking way. Even Soulkey admitted he was afraid of going against Light in SSL.
Soulkey is extremely deceptive and great and preparing strategies to win series in ASL/SSL, but you cannot rely on them for too long. He acknowledged that after the SSL finals, by saying that he didn't have any strategies left for Sharp.
He also needs to prove himself against Soma and Flash once he gets in shape.
And finally, and probably much more controversial, is the ZvZ issue. Everyone knows how volatile that matchup is. However, during the second half of 2023, both Soulkey and Soma did manage to achieve a win rate above 55%, which basically tells us that it is indeed possible to excel at that matchup. He needs to improve his ZvZ so that at least it consistently stays above 50%.
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Northern Ireland24144 Posts
On November 06 2024 13:11 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 11:18 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ. If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here I mean, hero didn’t win it like If the outcome of a single game is enough to completely change the argument or question of whether sk is a Bonjwa or not, then the answer is a simple NO, he is not a Bonjwa.
Sure, so one can just argue he hasn’t been dominant enough or w/e, rather than making arguments about things that are the opposite of what happened
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It is cool data. But 2020-2022 is pretty crucial too to show how long Light has been at the top of the rankings. in 2020 and 2021 specifically he was pretty much rank 1 for two years straight. His most impressive feat being winning 11 ultimate battle best of 9s in a row vs all the top players of that time. He was regarded as highly as flash during that time. With others catching up to him in 2023 and 2024 his stats overall look less impressive until you look at his winrate vs soulkey past few months.
note: most 2020-2021 data is lost on sponbbang.
correction 10 best 9 wins in a row.
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On November 06 2024 04:52 Waxangel wrote:What is a Bonjwa?It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used. TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen).
Thanks for sharing.
It's a completely different era now than when the Bonjwa term was coined. Doesn't really apply or need to exist any more. All we can say about SK is that he's absolutely amazing in offline tournaments right now, and that at a time when all the other active top zergs are struggling, he's still doing great. It's just too bad that there's only 2 offline tournaments a year right now. Hopefully the PSL picks up some steam.
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On November 07 2024 00:12 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 04:52 Waxangel wrote:What is a Bonjwa?It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used. TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen). Thanks for sharing. It's a completely different era now than when the Bonjwa term was coined. Doesn't really apply or need to exist any more. All we can say about SK is that he's absolutely amazing in offline tournaments right now, and that at a time when all the other active top zergs are struggling, he's still doing great. It's just too bad that there's only 2 offline tournaments a year right now. Hopefully the PSL picks up some steam.
The competitive environment has changed. most happens online, some happens offline. we have proleagues, kcm, smaller tourbaments, sponsor matches etc.
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There is no bonjwa today. The term bonjwa was defined in an era with highly professional structures and several tournaments to prove yourself. 1) Due to various reasons, skill level as well as skill density today are just not high enough. 2) Back in the day, some players excelled at OSL, some at MSL and some at proleague. To become a bonjwa, you had to not only dominate a single tournament but dominate across the tournaments, which only very few succeeded in.
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Nice useful statistics, thanks.
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No, SK is not a Bonjwa. He is not playing a race that is considered weak and dominated in a particular matchup, by an elite of the game's all time best players with 70% and 80%+ winrates, on horrible maps. Ironically, Savior made it so that no other Zerg could be called Bonjwa, as he saved ZvT. Now if he were Protoss, and ZvP was really skewed, and the top 5 or so Zergs had 70%+ winrates and were among the best players of all time, and he was destroying these guys in Starleague semifinals and finals doing things you never saw, then yeah he'd be a Bonjwa.
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Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
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On December 09 2024 17:03 HolySmokes wrote:
No, SK is not a Bonjwa. He is not playing a race that is considered weak and dominated in a particular matchup, by an elite of the game's all time best players with 70% and 80%+ winrates, on horrible maps. Ironically, Savior made it so that no other Zerg could be called Bonjwa, as he saved ZvT. Now if he were Protoss, and ZvP was really skewed, and the top 5 or so Zergs had 70%+ winrates and were among the best players of all time, and he was destroying these guys in Starleague semifinals and finals doing things you never saw, then yeah he'd be a Bonjwa.
Do you mean that terran is considered weak and dominated in particular matchup?
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Belgium6764 Posts
At the time of Boxer Terran was considered weak. Nada and oov continued the T dominance.
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On December 09 2024 18:48 DropBear wrote:
Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
JD fan? :p
Memory from that golden flash period is still clear that he did look invencible, individually and those reversal all kills for KT Flash :D
Jaedong was there to be a worthy rival and to make Flash lool even better because he was so good as well. But you knew in those days that he would 14'cc you and you would be doomed.
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United States42095 Posts
On December 09 2024 18:48 DropBear wrote:
Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
Flash dominated for longer than any of the others mentioned.
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United States10081 Posts
On December 09 2024 18:48 DropBear wrote:
Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
FlaSh beat Jaedong in 3 straight MSL/OSLs in 2010.
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FlaSh dominated in Kespa and then dominated early ASL and in online proleagues. He is definitely an official bonjwa.
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Netherlands4731 Posts
On December 10 2024 23:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
FlaSh dominated in Kespa and then dominated early ASL and in online proleagues. He is definitely an official bonjwa.
Bonjwa is a despicable title to God. Happy birthday btw!
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On December 10 2024 23:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
FlaSh dominated in Kespa and then dominated early ASL and in online proleagues. He is definitely an official bonjwa.
Happy Birthday.
There is a reason Flash went straight to God and not Bonjwa. And that was way before ASL. His dominance and gameplay was so far ahead from everyone else lol.
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thanks!
also forgive me for my sins. I should not have calles Flash a bonjwa. He is clearly beyond such titles.
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On December 11 2024 02:36 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
thanks!
also forgive me for my sins. I should not have calles Flash a bonjwa. He is clearly beyond such titles.
Happy Birthday, RJB !!!  
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On December 09 2024 18:48 DropBear wrote:
Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
Flash earned the title bonjwa during Kespa era and after Kespa he won 4 ASL title, 3 of which are back to back. He was so dominance that he picked random to make it fair for other players.
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Notably, Soulkey has a <50% winning rate against Light in the recent months. Weirdly enough, no one is talking about it.
With how soulkey destroyed light in SSL, it's hard to care about Light winning in some random bo1's. Soulkey made it look like beating Light was an easy a-move.
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On December 11 2024 09:58 zelevin wrote:Show nested quote +Notably, Soulkey has a <50% winning rate against Light in the recent months. Weirdly enough, no one is talking about it. With how soulkey destroyed light in SSL, it's hard to care about Light winning in some random bo1's. Soulkey made it look like beating Light was an easy a-move.
these are largely from bo7 and bo9 sets. they play almost no bo1s except in proleagues. spons are 3/2, 5/3 or 7/4. ultimate battle is 9 games. chinese version is 7-9 games. one 7/4 set anything can happen because its still a small sample size.
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these are largely from bo7 and bo9 sets. they play almost no bo1s except in proleagues. spons are 3/2, 5/3 or 7/4. ultimate battle is 9 games. chinese version is 7-9 games. one 7/4 set anything can happen because its still a small sample size.
so i hadn't actually looked into it, i guessed, but i was right.
https://imgur.com/a/p81l9sO
according to liquipedia, the original post is wrong. soulkey has a winning record vs light in both matches and maps.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On December 12 2024 06:37 zelevin wrote:Show nested quote +these are largely from bo7 and bo9 sets. they play almost no bo1s except in proleagues. spons are 3/2, 5/3 or 7/4. ultimate battle is 9 games. chinese version is 7-9 games. one 7/4 set anything can happen because its still a small sample size. so i hadn't actually looked into it, i guessed, but i was right. https://imgur.com/a/p81l9sOaccording to liquipedia, the original post is wrong. soulkey has a winning record vs light in both matches and maps.
You really have no idea of what you are talking about. Do you really think those are all the games Soulkey and Light have played since 2016 ??? Liquipedia includes a extremely small fraction of all the games pros play. The data I used comes from eloboard (granted, it is also incomplete, but to a much much lesser extent than liquipedia).
so i hadn't actually looked into it, i guessed, but i was right.
Imagine being this unfoundedly confident.
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On December 12 2024 06:37 zelevin wrote:Show nested quote +these are largely from bo7 and bo9 sets. they play almost no bo1s except in proleagues. spons are 3/2, 5/3 or 7/4. ultimate battle is 9 games. chinese version is 7-9 games. one 7/4 set anything can happen because its still a small sample size. so i hadn't actually looked into it, i guessed, but i was right. https://imgur.com/a/p81l9sOaccording to liquipedia, the original post is wrong. soulkey has a winning record vs light in both matches and maps.
Don't use liquipedia for your data
liquipedia is extremely incomplete. use eloboard.
for example this screenshot from eloboard alone already has 6-3 vs soulkey in chinese bo9 and a 2-1 from a bo3.
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Imagine being this unfoundedly confident.
don't have to imagine, bro. I live it 😎
Don't use liquipedia for your data
liquipedia is extremely incomplete. use eloboard.
oooooh i didn't know eloboard had that feature. google translate does a good job but doesn't exactly make it obvious
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On December 09 2024 18:48 DropBear wrote:
Imo there are only 4. Boxer, Nada, oov and savior.
Neither Flash nor Jaedong ever dominated each other enough. And post KeSPA doesn't count.
FlaSh is the Bonjwa of Bonjwas.
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In the era of only one big LAN tournament? With no real proleague though cool high prize pool proleagues team leagues race leagues etc, but no actual team behind them. Outside of the KESPA era? In the time period where players in the RO16 ASL wouldn't have made it out of the preliminaries to get into a RO32 of an OSL/MSL? With this lacking depth and level of competitive excellence?
Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this.
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On January 03 2025 13:15 NoobSkills wrote:
In the era of only one big LAN tournament? With no real proleague though cool high prize pool proleagues team leagues race leagues etc, but no actual team behind them. Outside of the KESPA era? In the time period where players in the RO16 ASL wouldn't have made it out of the preliminaries to get into a RO32 of an OSL/MSL? With this lacking depth and level of competitive excellence?
Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this.
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
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first post kespa non-flash bonjwa imo;;
3 titles in a row too stronkerino
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On January 03 2025 13:15 NoobSkills wrote:
In the era of only one big LAN tournament? With no real proleague though cool high prize pool proleagues team leagues race leagues etc, but no actual team behind them. Outside of the KESPA era? In the time period where players in the RO16 ASL wouldn't have made it out of the preliminaries to get into a RO32 of an OSL/MSL? With this lacking depth and level of competitive excellence?
Nah, I mean he is doing great, but I'm not sure there is anything left that would ever give him enough credit to be a bonjwa, even if he wins everything, the lack of top events running per year, lack of depth of the talent pool, the coasting of individuals in the events. Maybe if he caught fire at the end of the OSL/MSL days and carried it onto ASL, but not this.
Players now are better than Kespa era. We are 12 years, almost 13 years into the future. Mechanically players are about the same, a bit better in some regards because they kept progressing their methods of doing things, but moreso because strategy and understanding of the game is so much better than it was back then. The eco-system is different and the pros no longer need teams. Also fans here on TL greatly overstate how some players "barely play and dont even practice much". People keep saying rain barely played yet he had 100+ eloboard recorded matches and 300-350 total ladder games and another massive amount of offstream practice games (he would take one to two days off multiple times during the season to grind offline games of practice vs others).
Only player who actually sandbagged in the entire lineup of qualified players in the past few years was Sea in ASL17 where he took a whole two weeks off just before his play day to do variety stream content with his team. SSL1 he actually put in hours on ladder, put in a good number of quality spons and did some offstream practice (like one or two days but its something). He did get super lucky in Ro24 though and should never have made it through because he was objectively the worst player in that season.
The issue is that because the players have progressed so much they have become capable of absolutely making their opponent look "bad" once they get a lead over them, to the point it can feel like their opponent cant do anything. Some players can shut down every single option their opponent has when in the lead. It also didnt help we did get some massive mistakes being made by some players. YSC flying his shuttle into the range of a turret he didnt see just outside of his screen of vision, and motive being too greedy with his actually good strategy and ruining his own chances.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results.
Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons:
1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Oct 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17.
2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak.
3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him.
Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's.
Edit: Corrected date of ASL16 finals
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On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's.
If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance.
I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time).
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On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time).
I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning.
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So you think that there can be no new bonjwa simply because there is less competition around? Sounds kinda unfair to clearly the best player in the world now. Not his fault that there are not so many strong players around nowaday. But Starcraft still is a competitive scene.
I mean, following that logic even Serral is not a bonjwa in Starcraft 2.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning.
I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc.
And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just two* weeks of proleague was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings.
( * roughly 2 weeks of proleague. It was 3 weeks after he started streaming)
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On January 05 2025 10:28 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just 3 weeks in pro-league was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings.
Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible.
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On January 05 2025 09:32 SiarX wrote:
So you think that there can be no new bonjwa simply because there is less competition around? Sounds kinda unfair to clearly the best player in the world now. Not his fault that there are not so many strong players around nowaday. But Starcraft still is a competitive scene.
I mean, following that logic even Serral is not a bonjwa in Starcraft 2.
Considering Serral is a foreigner and has never been in a Korea team house etc. And he Won blizzcon when the sc2 scene was still pretty healthy and continued to dominate. He is the best SC2 Legacy of the void player without question. Does that makes him the best sc2 player ever ? Could be. Personally i respect Maru legacy being good in almost every era. While is true that serral clear the floor with him these days.
But serral just being a foreigner and acomplishing what he did is a freak of nature. Honestly just for that he should be the best sc2 player ever. Just look how the Korean sc2 scene become less dominant when They stopped the team houses and all of that structure around them.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
FlaSh shape wasnt as bad
Well, that is just not true.
These are Flash's results the first two days streaming (after 2-3? months playing on ladder). It includes losses to Leta, Free, Killer, and Stork. The 3-game win streak is against Pusan.
+ Show Spoiler +
The next few days he has long win streaks against unworthy opponents, but keeps consistently losing against pro players. On Nov 1st, he lost 0-4 to rain. By Nov 09, he manages to beat Soulkey twice (but loses tree times).
On Nov 12, he starts to rise to the top of the ELO ranking, with a win streak that included games against JyJ, Bisu, Snow, and Soulkey. He has stayed near the top of the rankings since then.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On January 05 2025 13:59 cheesehuehue wrote:Well, that is just not true. These are Flash's results the first two days streaming (after 2-3? months playing on ladder). It includes losses to Leta, Free, Killer, and Stork. The 3-game win streak is against Pusan. + Show Spoiler +The next few days he has long win streaks against unworthy opponents, but keeps consistently losing against pro players. On Nov 1st, he lost 0-4 to rain. By Nov 09, he manages to beat Soulkey twice (but loses tree times). On Nov 12, he starts to rise to the top of the ELO ranking, with a win streak that included games against JyJ, Bisu, Snow, and Soulkey. He has stayed near the top of the rankings since then. + Show Spoiler +
If im not mistaken the first time Flash Played proleague was 10/26.
Now this is all about interpretation but to me someone that played his first competitive games mid october and is already dominating at the start of november is pretty clear his shape wasnt so bad. Specially if you compared it when he comeback from SC2. But hey maybe for you good shape means instantly beating everyone. Up to you there.
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On January 05 2025 13:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 09:32 SiarX wrote:
So you think that there can be no new bonjwa simply because there is less competition around? Sounds kinda unfair to clearly the best player in the world now. Not his fault that there are not so many strong players around nowaday. But Starcraft still is a competitive scene.
I mean, following that logic even Serral is not a bonjwa in Starcraft 2. Considering Serral is a foreigner and has never been in a Korea team house etc. And he Won blizzcon when the sc2 scene was still pretty healthy and continued to dominate. He is the best SC2 Legacy of the void player without question. Does that makes him the best sc2 player ever ? Could be. Personally i respect Maru legacy being good in almost every era. While is true that serral clear the floor with him these days. But serral just being a foreigner and acomplishing what he did is a freak of nature. Honestly just for that he should be the best sc2 player ever. Just look how the Korean sc2 scene become less dominant when They stopped the team houses and all of that structure around them.
Still, is not bonjwa supposed to be any player who consistently dominates entire pro scene? Regardless of how many talents are left.
Note btw that Serral started dominating SC2 only when greatest players have left already. And him being a foreigner is not nearly as much achievement as it would have been in brood war, because Blizzard supported foreign pro scene way better than in BW, while Korean scene (because of team houses, yes) was clearly weaker than in BW.
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On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 10:28 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just 3 weeks in pro-league was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings. Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible.
Except Fantasy played 1000+ ladder games and a bunch of practice games in the 6 months leading up to the tournament. And who knows who he talked to about the game because it all happened off stream. It was said by pros Fantasy was part of JyJ's practice team for ASL finals. He was more active than anyone else during that half year. Also don't forget that in online play he wasnt nearly as dominant as he was at the Saudi tournament. The Saudi tournament is a small sample size. and a player can, by your own words about Ult battle results varying so much, look either amazing or not amazing. It is only over large sample sizes that we can determine a player's shape and potential. Ssak for example all killed in KCM last week beating Hero, Soulkey, Mini, and best. Is ssak objectively better than them? Or did he overperform? did the others under perform? did he have build order advantage?
also another example in regards to turnover rate in the professional scene. League of legends has a thousand times the player base starcraft has, yet we see mainly the same pros return and stay at the top for the past 7 years. Yet in the first 5 years of pro league of legends we saw a very high turnover rate with pros having very short pro careera because new better players rose up really often. And in large that was because the pro scene, the skill, and the undersranding of the game was still developing. This resulted in the pros of 2012 being outdated and outskilled in 2013, and then the same in 2014 and 2015. But as the understanding of the game peaked out, and maximum skill potential was reached and players could not be more talented than they already were, and not better than they already were in terms of skill, we saw a much lower turnover rate with players now having long pro careers at the top and sometimes being top 10 players for over 5 years.
We saw something similar in starcraft in 2004-2007. Very few pros from 2005-2007 were able to compete in 2008-2012. But most from 2008 competed in 2012 and some still compete today. I think something similar happened. Play changed over 2006-2007 to the point most going into 2008 could no longer compete because they were outclassed by more talented players. Yet we didnt see this happen after 2008 because they all had maximum talent. Thats also why pros from this time period do well when they return. They have maxed out talent.
and one more factor plays into this. Starcraft in Korea has been replaced by League of Legends as the game to pursue. all the talent that in 2003-2010 would go to starcraft now largely goes to league of legends. Yet even with all that talent going towards league of legends and new players aiming to become pros, we still see the same pros maintain their positions for years. New players are hardly breaking through.
Or look at pro sports where the top layer of pros have long 5-10 year long careers sitting at the top, new players rarely replacing them until they retire or are too old for peak physical performance. based on your argument they would have to be replaced by younger more talented pros every 1-3 years yet we dont reallt see that happen.
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On January 06 2025 02:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 10:28 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just 3 weeks in pro-league was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings. Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible. Except Fantasy played 1000+ ladder games and a bunch of practice games in the 6 months leading up to the tournament. And who knows who he talked to about the game because it all happened off stream. It was said by pros Fantasy was part of JyJ's practice team for ASL finals. He was more active than anyone else during that half year. Also don't forget that in online play he wasnt nearly as dominant as he was at the Saudi tournament. The Saudi tournament is a small sample size. and a player can, by your own words about Ult battle results varying so much, look either amazing or not amazing. It is only over large sample sizes that we can determine a player's shape and potential. Ssak for example all killed in KCM last week beating Hero, Soulkey, Mini, and best. Is ssak objectively better than them? Or did he overperform? did the others under perform? did he have build order advantage? also another example in regards to turnover rate in the professional scene. League of legends has a thousand times the player base starcraft has, yet we see mainly the same pros return and stay at the top for the past 7 years. Yet in the first 5 years of pro league of legends we saw a very high turnover rate with pros having very short pro careera because new better players rose up really often. And in large that was because the pro scene, the skill, and the undersranding of the game was still developing. This resulted in the pros of 2012 being outdated and outskilled in 2013, and then the same in 2014 and 2015. But as the understanding of the game peaked out, and maximum skill potential was reached and players could not be more talented than they already were, and not better than they already were in terms of skill, we saw a much lower turnover rate with players now having long pro careers at the top and sometimes being top 10 players for over 5 years. We saw something similar in starcraft in 2004-2007. Very few pros from 2005-2007 were able to compete in 2008-2012. But most from 2008 competed in 2012 and some still compete today. I think something similar happened. Play changed over 2006-2007 to the point most going into 2008 could no longer compete because they were outclassed by more talented players. Yet we didnt see this happen after 2008 because they all had maximum talent. Thats also why pros from this time period do well when they return. They have maxed out talent. and one more factor plays into this. Starcraft in Korea has been replaced by League of Legends as the game to pursue. all the talent that in 2003-2010 would go to starcraft now largely goes to league of legends. Yet even with all that talent going towards league of legends and new players aiming to become pros, we still see the same pros maintain their positions for years. New players are hardly breaking through. Or look at pro sports where the top layer of pros have long 5-10 year long careers sitting at the top, new players rarely replacing them until they retire or are too old for peak physical performance. based on your argument they would have to be replaced by younger more talented pros every 1-3 years yet we dont reallt see that happen.
I dont think u got my point about UB. In UB we were getting those results of 7-2 6-3 inflated scores.Going both ways. And it is just the nature of already losing the series and being down so many games you tend to just play to be over it.
League of legends is still getting new talent. I dont follow the scene close but do you still find new players on his early 20.
Anyway my point is that some run like what Fantasy did would have been impossible in the Kespa era. Everything was just way more competitive. Progamers didnt touch ladder for competitive reasons. The real practice was playing with their own team and other team scrims. Brother do you know well that these days progamers are not even playing that much. Effort made the ASL semis without taking any round serious. I saw him playing those funny FS 2v2 maps with special powers every night. Progamer these days are basically doing what you are saying. Just showing up with their maxed skill cap everyday. Yeah sure in the Kespa era you could hear stories about NaDa also chilling and Chojja too and still doing great. But is not even fair to compare that era to this era. Their sole goal was to play games. At that age with not worries and just focusing on one thing to their state of mind now is not even comparable. Healthy hands. Good eyes lol. Anyway i still respect if you think different. You are also emotionally invested to all of this so it makes sense.
That said What SK has acomplished is incredible. And i doubt any other zerg will match this any time soon. Specially now that FlaSh is back. I still hope Soma can win one ASL. WHat SK is doing and the way he is beating his opponents on this trash zerg maps is honestly awesome. Every zerg is struggling right now and SK just keep winning. But this Bonjwa term being used these days is just weird. But At the end of the day back then the term Bonjwa started from the people and if in 2025 people wanna call SK Bonjwa is their right too. I just dont share it. We are basically saying that Lebron is the goat now but in the future there will not be more NBA and they are playing in Parks and Some random kid win with his team his local tourney 3 times in a row. There is no way that kid reached Lebron levels.
The analogy is kinda trash but do u get the point.
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On January 06 2025 03:30 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2025 02:52 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 12:56 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 10:28 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 05:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On January 05 2025 05:12 cheesehuehue wrote:On January 05 2025 02:48 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On January 05 2025 02:21 cheesehuehue wrote:
But Bisu, Mini, Jaedong, Larva, Light and now Flash are still around...
Jaedong and Larva are not at Light's level. I don't think beating them adds that much to your legacy. Maybe larva in its peak was worth mentioning, but right now he is nowhere near it. And Jaedong has performed very poorly for a long time, with short peaks (in online performance) now and then, but that have not translated into ASL/SSL results. Also, in the original post I didn't mention my opinion because I wanted to keep it objective and simply present stats. But Soulkey is in no way a Bonjwa, for several reasons: 1. First of all Soulkey's "reign" didn't start when he won ASL16 (Dec 2023), it started somewhere in May 2024 (after winning ASL 17). He won ASL16 and 17 without being the best player of those given times. If we see the ELO scores, rankings and win rates, at least one of Snow, Light and Soma had been performing better than Soulkey when he won ASL 16 and 17. 2. Soulkey's peak is not remarkable enough. Soulkey's win rate since May 2024 (around the time his peak started) is 63.6%. That is remarkable, but not enough to be called a Bonjwa. In other words, he is not head and shoulders above the competition. For instance, between Jan 2022 and Feb 2024 (that is a total of 2 years and 2 months!), Snow has a win rate of 64.7%. In other words, Snow consistently performed for over 2 years better than Soulkey is performing in his absolute maximum peak. 3. Soulkey has not proven to be consistently better than Light. He was able to hold a >50% winrate over Light for a very short time (See individual winrates in original post), but for the most time, Light has had an edge over him. Unfortunately, Snow hasn't won any ASL/SSL, because otherwise he would have had a much better claim than Soulkey. Snow's peaks was higher and longer than Soulkey's. If we look exclusively at eloboard and the final year of sponbbang then SnOw and Light actually have a stronger case for Bonjwa status than Soulkey, even though Soulkey is right now the best player all around. Light has been top 5 on elo rating since late 2019 and very often spends long stretches of time at #1. The same goes for snow and the same used to count for SoMa. we can argue they failed to perform in offline tourneys, but we can make the same argument for Soulkey failing to perform in online events over that same period of time. SnOw has made numerous online finals and has had way more dominating streaks then soulkey online. Light similarly has had more dominant streaks than soulkey in online for 4 and a half years straight. it wasnt until 2024 that Soulkey started to best snow and light in online, but not every time they play. I think fans put way too much weight into Offline tourneys in favor of ignoring most of the competition which happens online. But if we look exclusively at 2023-2024 then yes Soulkey is definitely most dominant. if we look at 2019-2024 its Light > Soulkey = SnOw in terms of dominance. I agree with most of what you said, except that Soulkey's dominance started in 2024, not 2023. He won ASL16 and ASL17, but he was not dominating when he achieved that. To make an analogy, JyJ won ASL 15, but he was not dominating during that time. The fact that a player won a tournament doesn't mean he was dominating (i.e. that he was clearly the best player of that time). I dont think anyone that started those claimings about a Bonjwa looked at proleagues scores. They just happened to see one player winning the only offline tourney with the most prestige 3 times in a row and the last one with a really clear dominance that even before the matches happened everyone saw him winning it. That is why using the term Bonjwa for any new player post kespa doesnt really matter to me. These daily proleagues are not even 30% What Proleague in the kespa time was about. Preparing for a team and specific players. Everything is just way less competitive. Now we have a group of people talking on discord obsing games and playing 1 or 2 games. Those players that excelled in the Past were everyweek analyzed by players and coaches to stop their streak and they just kept winning. I think you know very well that pro players don't play just pro-league. There is also KCM, ultimate battle (and its Chinese equivalent), sponsored matches, etc. And even in proleague, the players don't just sit idlly when it's not their turn to play, they also get a chance to observe and discuss with other pro players in real time. Nowadays players have access to many more games than they used to before. And this is something that some people seem not to realize: The benefit of participating in the online proleague cannot be stressed enough. Look at Flash's return, for instance. When he started playing in proleague, he sucked at first, even though he had been playing on ladder for a few months. However, just 3 weeks in pro-league was enough for him to rise to the top of the ELO rankings. Doesnt change anything. KCM is almost like Proleague. UB is interesting. Most of the time when a players get 4-1 is really hard to comeback and do you see the series ending with some inflated results that do you really wonder what is going on.I have seen Light demolishing SK and inverse. I have seen Soma do it to protoss then next it happened to him too. Chinese format being bo7 tends to be more realistic with results. FlaSh shape wasnt as bad. I remember him smashing Sharp few days after the ASL final. And even taking games from SK too. These days he bleed games to Best the most it seems. The scene is way less competitive compared to the past. Proof of that is Fantasy. He was for so many years away from BW and smashed JD Bisu in that Saudi tournament. In the Kespa era when progamers joined military or were away for sometime it was very hard for them to catch up and compete again. I remember When Flash had his hand surgery he couldnt be as dominant and catch up with Fantasy and Jangbi. Effort was a Shadow of himself after his comeback aswell. But in Today scene any progamer seems to be doing really well. Look at TY. Pro in SC2 for so many years. Talented enough that now he is doing fairly well for himself. But in the kespa era a comeback like that.. I honestly dont think it was possible. Except Fantasy played 1000+ ladder games and a bunch of practice games in the 6 months leading up to the tournament. And who knows who he talked to about the game because it all happened off stream. It was said by pros Fantasy was part of JyJ's practice team for ASL finals. He was more active than anyone else during that half year. Also don't forget that in online play he wasnt nearly as dominant as he was at the Saudi tournament. The Saudi tournament is a small sample size. and a player can, by your own words about Ult battle results varying so much, look either amazing or not amazing. It is only over large sample sizes that we can determine a player's shape and potential. Ssak for example all killed in KCM last week beating Hero, Soulkey, Mini, and best. Is ssak objectively better than them? Or did he overperform? did the others under perform? did he have build order advantage? also another example in regards to turnover rate in the professional scene. League of legends has a thousand times the player base starcraft has, yet we see mainly the same pros return and stay at the top for the past 7 years. Yet in the first 5 years of pro league of legends we saw a very high turnover rate with pros having very short pro careera because new better players rose up really often. And in large that was because the pro scene, the skill, and the undersranding of the game was still developing. This resulted in the pros of 2012 being outdated and outskilled in 2013, and then the same in 2014 and 2015. But as the understanding of the game peaked out, and maximum skill potential was reached and players could not be more talented than they already were, and not better than they already were in terms of skill, we saw a much lower turnover rate with players now having long pro careers at the top and sometimes being top 10 players for over 5 years. We saw something similar in starcraft in 2004-2007. Very few pros from 2005-2007 were able to compete in 2008-2012. But most from 2008 competed in 2012 and some still compete today. I think something similar happened. Play changed over 2006-2007 to the point most going into 2008 could no longer compete because they were outclassed by more talented players. Yet we didnt see this happen after 2008 because they all had maximum talent. Thats also why pros from this time period do well when they return. They have maxed out talent. and one more factor plays into this. Starcraft in Korea has been replaced by League of Legends as the game to pursue. all the talent that in 2003-2010 would go to starcraft now largely goes to league of legends. Yet even with all that talent going towards league of legends and new players aiming to become pros, we still see the same pros maintain their positions for years. New players are hardly breaking through. Or look at pro sports where the top layer of pros have long 5-10 year long careers sitting at the top, new players rarely replacing them until they retire or are too old for peak physical performance. based on your argument they would have to be replaced by younger more talented pros every 1-3 years yet we dont reallt see that happen. I dont think u got my point about UB. In UB we were getting those results of 7-2 6-3 inflated scores.Going both ways. And it is just the nature of already losing the series and being down so many games you tend to just play to be over it. League of legends is still getting new talent. I dont follow the scene close but do you still find new players on his early 20. Anyway my point is that some run like what Fantasy did would have been impossible in the Kespa era. Everything was just way more competitive. Progamers didnt touch ladder for competitive reasons. The real practice was playing with their own team and other team scrims. Brother do you know well that these days progamers are not even playing that much. Effort made the ASL semis without taking any round serious. I saw him playing those funny FS 2v2 maps with special powers every night. Progamer these days are basically doing what you are saying. Just showing up with their maxed skill cap everyday. Yeah sure in the Kespa era you could hear stories about NaDa also chilling and Chojja too and still doing great. But is not even fair to compare that era to this era. Their sole goal was to play games. At that age with not worries and just focusing on one thing to their state of mind now is not even comparable. Healthy hands. Good eyes lol. Anyway i still respect if you think different. You are also emotionally invested to all of this so it makes sense. That said What SK has acomplished is incredible. And i doubt any other zerg will match this any time soon. Specially now that FlaSh is back. I still hope Soma can win one ASL. WHat SK is doing and the way he is beating his opponents on this trash zerg maps is honestly awesome. Every zerg is struggling right now and SK just keep winning. But this Bonjwa term being used these days is just weird. But At the end of the day back then the term Bonjwa started from the people and if in 2025 people wanna call SK Bonjwa is their right too. I just dont share it. We are basically saying that Lebron is the goat now but in the future there will not be more NBA and they are playing in Parks and Some random kid win with his team his local tourney 3 times in a row. There is no way that kid reached Lebron levels. The analogy is kinda trash but do u get the point.
Better analogy would be that they no longer play in Large stadiums but in smaller stadiums. Competition has moved online because that's the best way to compete in the modern era. It happens in a lot of other pro-esports. Also look at Super Smash Brothers Melee. Insanely technical game yet we still see some of the old dogs play just as technical as the new blood that now reigns.
And we have had some "new players" rise to the top in Brood war. There's some players who were pros but never did anything, or weren't good enough yet. Royal, JyJ, Soma(pro-license no team), Soulkey, Rain, Speed, etc.
Also the bigger reason new players don't break through is purely a reason I talked about with Sziky. New players have to invest large amounts of money to participate in the pro scene. Proleague is invitation only, and they only invite people who can add money to the prize pool, either their own money or money from their viewers/fans. Most Amateurs aiming to break through don't have this money. The same goes for Sponsor Matches. These amateurs NEED coaching and play-time exposure against the pros, because without they won't improve beyond their current level. This effectively keeps the Amateurs stuck in the amateur level, and the pros at the pro level. So yes I agree with you in the sense that having pro teams recruit and train amateurs does allow more of the new players/amateurs to grow into the pro level. That exact thing is now gone in the remastered era. But I really don't think its now less competitive because the pros are now making MORE money from their streaming activities than they were as pro players. Proleague prize pools are sometimes massive. The female streamers in mixed proleague also bring large amounts of money into the prize pools. There's no time to slack off when there's a 1000$ waiting for you if you win a proleague.
Another large component that didn't exist in the Kespa era is the ability to improve from watching livestreams and the information sharing potential these livestreams have if you know Korean. Pros discuss stuff during proleagues beside the joking they do. It also gives a direct perspective into HOW the better players do their things, how they organize their sequence of actions or and etc. These are all things that would be purely limited to the players in the team house. and even within the team house players would keep secrets from one another. Now there's almost no secrecy.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On January 05 2025 20:08 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
... someone that played his first competitive games mid october and is already dominating at the start of november is pretty clear his shape wasnt so bad...
You completely missed the point.
Flash objectively sucked the first few days he streamed, losing to the likes of free, killer, leta and non-peak Stork, despite having been playing on ladder for a few months. HOWEVER, after participating in pro-league for just ~2 weeks, he achieved a 6-game win streak consisting of JyJ, Bisu, Snow, Soulkey, Bisu, Bisu. The point being that participating in the pro-league is what made him improve so quickly. What I (and I think RJB, too) am arguing is that participating in proleague is in fact extremely beneficial to a player's skills because they get to analyze and discuss strategies in real time. For somewhat like Flash, that environment allows him to see how other players deal with builds that he is not familiar with because of his 3-year break.
In other words, the claim that "nowadays pros just play 2-3 games daily therefore they are not as skilled as before" is nonsense. Pros play fewer games, but spend a lot of time analyzing games, and not just with the same teammates over and over again, but with the whole pro scene. Also, it is not even true that pros only play 2-3 games daily. Sometimes they play bo7 or bo9 series before proleague, and usually play ladder before proleague, too.
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just yday larva and flash played a 15 games set or something. larva been doing these massive sets with terrans since november. sometimes 21 game sets.
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Top players have days where they play 2-3 games against other top players and then they have days where they play 10-20 games like Flash vs Larva recently. I don't know what the average is, but it's certainly closer to 5 games than 2-3. And that's ignoring ladder games as well as off stream practice.
Also, whenever it's time to prepare for important games, top players play many games in a bulk. The average over the year may be around 5, but for tournaments or during rivalries the average shoots up into the 10+ region. It was similar during the Kespa days, they were all far more active during the weeks and days ahead of an important match. It doesn't make sense for someone to play around the clock when literally nothing's coming up for them for the next two months.
So the quality of a player can vary quite significantly throughout the year depending on how driven they are. Snow right now isn't practicing very hard, so he's been declining a bit. I bet he'll return to top form when something big comes up.
This also means that the quality of players that we see nowadays is much less filtered. During the Kespa days players were generally showing themselves in top form because those were all televised games. That was a huge skill filter. But through the year their skill level likely underwent variations very similar to what we see nowadays. Because now we also see much of the behind-the-scenes.
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Now as I think, Soulkey is currently what Serral was for SC2: clearly best player, who keeps dominating everyone even after multiple nerfs targeted at him (straight zerg nerfs in SC2, map nerfs in BW). If he is not a bonjwa, then who currently is?
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Netherlands4731 Posts
Bonjwa hasn't been a thing for well over decade anymore. Maybe read Waxangel's post on page 2?
Let's see how he does upcoming ASL and then see if Koreans decide he needs a new nickname that reflects him being the best or at least peak performing for a significant time period.
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Koreans tend to play down post-proleague achievements so it won't happen
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Vatican City State90 Posts
On January 28 2025 04:42 SiarX wrote:
Now as I think, Soulkey is currently what Serral was for SC2: clearly best player
This is the narrative that needs to die down. Soulkey is NOT clearly the best player. He Is NOT better than Light. He was better than him for maybe 2 or 3 months (May-July 2024). After that, Light has been slightly favored: Yes, regardless of what a single bo7 series in SSL could make anyone think, Soulkey has not demonstrated to be better than Light.
Not only that, Flash has been kicking Soulkey's ass since December.
Soulkey's been lucky he hasn't had two long series against top terrans back to back (Sharp's TvZ sucks, he had an even worse record than Barracks against Soulkey the two years prior to SSL1).
Soulkey has relied a lot on deceptiveness to win matches in ASL/SSL. Even he admitted he had no builds left for Sharp. If he faces, say Flash and Light back to back, he is f'kd.
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On January 29 2025 13:57 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 04:42 SiarX wrote:
Now as I think, Soulkey is currently what Serral was for SC2: clearly best player This is the narrative that needs to die down. Soulkey is NOT clearly the best player. He Is NOT better than Light. He was better than him for maybe 2 or 3 months (May-July 2024). After that, Light has been slightly favored: Yes, regardless of what a single bo7 series in SSL could make anyone think, Soulkey has not demonstrated to be better than Light. Not only that, Flash has been kicking Soulkey's ass since December. Soulkey's been lucky he hasn't had two long series against top terrans back to back (Sharp's TvZ sucks, he had an even worse record than Barracks against Soulkey the two years prior to SSL1). Soulkey has relied a lot on deceptiveness to win matches in ASL/SSL. Even he admitted he had no builds left for Sharp. If he faces, say Flash and Light back to back, he is f'kd.
I mean, it's not as if deception was his only advantage coming in against T. I remember his match against Sharp on Monty Hall - he was defending down the middle lane and his army movement was crispier than anything I'd ever seen on that map. It was enough to get Sharp shaking a bit - and that was the reason he didn't knock the hatch down.
Granted, Sharp would have won that game if he focused the hatch, and also granted you did mention specifically that Sharp is bad against Zerg.. but I feel like it wasn't just Soulkey tricking Terrans. There was some seriously impressive execution on display, too.
That said, I think it's unfair the way the tournament organizers haven't used 1-way glass in the booths. PvZ is actually just impossible if the Z can look at the crowd and deduce what is happening in the fog of war... and that's what Hero did to Bisu, and what Soulkey did to Snow. I was looking closely. It made me really mad. The last game of the series, Bisu literally let Hero get his lings into his main on purpose just to try and put a micro tax on his opponent because he felt so hopeless in that situation. I don't even blame him. It was a terrible idea, but it was the best idea he could have.
So... I don't think it's quite fair to give Bonjwa status to anyone until we have booths that prohibit that kind of unfair edge. just my 2 cents.
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On January 29 2025 13:57 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2025 04:42 SiarX wrote:
Now as I think, Soulkey is currently what Serral was for SC2: clearly best player This is the narrative that needs to die down. Soulkey is NOT clearly the best player. He Is NOT better than Light. He was better than him for maybe 2 or 3 months (May-July 2024). After that, Light has been slightly favored: Yes, regardless of what a single bo7 series in SSL could make anyone think, Soulkey has not demonstrated to be better than Light. Not only that, Flash has been kicking Soulkey's ass since December. Soulkey's been lucky he hasn't had two long series against top terrans back to back (Sharp's TvZ sucks, he had an even worse record than Barracks against Soulkey the two years prior to SSL1). Soulkey has relied a lot on deceptiveness to win matches in ASL/SSL. Even he admitted he had no builds left for Sharp. If he faces, say Flash and Light back to back, he is f'kd.
From what I can see Flash vs Soulkey is roughly 10-8. A recent bo5 went 3-2 for Soulkey.
Frequently SK is in the top three, sometimes occupying first place. His success certainly does not come from luck and he's not running out of ideas. He's an elite player on par with all the other elite players. He also performs well in ZvZ.
He has a positive long-term record against everyone except Light and Flash. Even Bisu is in the negative against SK, which should raise a number of eyebrows.
The one and only statement I can agree with is that SK is not a Bonjwa. That status requires a much greater level of dominance for a lot longer.
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Vatican City State90 Posts
[B]
From what I can see Flash vs Soulkey is roughly 10-8. A recent bo5 went 3-2 for Soulkey.
I haven't seen that recent bo5 match and it doesn't appear in eloboard either --I don't know if they didn't upload the results, which sometimes happens, or if you were thinking of other players.
In eloboard, the record since Dec 01 is 4-7 in favor of Flash (63.6%). And Flash hadn't fully adjusted at the beginning of Dec.
He's an elite player on par with all the other elite players.
I never denied that. In fact, I fully agree with you. He is on par with other elite* players, not "clearly dominating them". Elite being Light, Queen, Flash and Snow.
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On January 31 2025 02:10 cheesehuehue wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
From what I can see Flash vs Soulkey is roughly 10-8. A recent bo5 went 3-2 for Soulkey.
I haven't seen that recent bo5 match and it doesn't appear in eloboard either --I don't know if they didn't upload the results, which sometimes happens, or if you were thinking of other players. In eloboard, the record since Dec 01 is 4-7 in favor of Flash (63.6%). And Flash hadn't fully adjusted at the beginning of Dec. I never denied that. In fact, I fully agree with you. He is on par with other elite* players, not "clearly dominating them". Elite being Light, Queen, Flash and Snow.
Yeah I also wouldn't say SK is dominating everyone. More like he isn't being dominated by anyone. He shares the throne with several others such as the names you mentioned (I'd also add Bisu and Mini).
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