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Northern Ireland23309 Posts
On November 06 2024 01:32 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 00:44 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 00:26 TT1 wrote:On November 05 2024 16:14 TMNT wrote:On November 05 2024 10:37 TT1 wrote:
i meant at the highest lvl, no professional player will respect other peers just cus of their online record (it's viewed more as a practice record), they only care about offline tourney results I just want to chip in and say that this is just wrong. Online record is literally what they use (mostly) to measure their peers power. Otherwise how did Light and Snow always get picked last in every group selection round? If I only care about offline results, hah these dudes choke most of the times on stage, getting knocked out by the likes of Killer and Shuttle, maybe I should pick them first to my group. i literally said it's a indication of skill lvl but no top player is gonna consider another player as being the best just from their online play it's just a sign of potential, potential is turned into reality when you're able to perform when it matters the most Do players not actually earn more from these various online leagues than the likes of ASL these days? Personally hey call me old-fashioned I like those classic style tournaments to really separate the wheat from the chaff. I can get invested in them as a viewer in a way I just can’t with like other formats But if that’s where the money is, is that not where the incentive to perform is? respect from competition is different than earning money, money is just the outcome of going through the process of improving at something to ultimately become one of the best in the field there's many levels within any game/discipline, to reach the top you have to incrementally go up the skill tree, like any competition you have city leagues/then provincial/national/international etc. in BW courage used to be the equivalent of proving yourself as being the best amateur (basically ladder players proving that they can compete offline when there's pressure), when you prove yourself there you become a practice partner for better players, as you improve you play in online tours and try to win there (top players don't view this as real competition cus there's no real pressure, many won't compete in these tours) when you're viewed as being competitive enough to play vs top players there's spon, spon is just a way to sustain high lvl practice for the best players (bassically players get paid for playing standard practice games), again there's no pressure on the line here so it's not viewed as being true representation of skill, many players hide builds for example once you're a top player you have the potential to become a championship caliber player, when you're a champ you have the chance to prove that you're the most dominant player by defending your title there's a reason why at the highest lvl (in 1v1 sports) ppl don't consider themselves as being a real champion until they defend their title, when you're Flash or Khabib or Federer or Tyson everyone is studying you to figure out how to beat you, you become the end goal for the entire field winning when you're at that level is much harder to do than winning as you're climbing up the skill tree to eventually even become champion, to prove you're by far the best you have to win when you're an open book to everyone
Sure but is that how the current top BW crop think?
I don’t mean to pick on Snow incidentally, but just an example. Is it Snow is a fucking spon and online monster, goddamn, or is it ‘haha Snow isn’t that good sure he can’t win an ASL?’
It feels as a relative scene noob the economics of the current scene have pulled focus away from Starleague equivalents.
There is a competitive honour and prestige element sure, but if the pro scene is earning more money off random spon matches and SC universities is that focus really going to be there?
It’s just one guy, and sure he’s got fingers in other pies, but he’s a Championship tier player on his day. You still had folks asking Rain if he was going to actually practice and take ASL seriously
Such a thing would have been unfathomable to even ask in the Kespa days. Indeed, it’d be the same in any SC2 premier going now
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BW competition at the highest lvl now is definitely much weaker than vs the Kespa days, that's how a player like Sea who has 0 practice is able to qualify into ASL and even make it through the first group stage
real competition happens when there's an endless amount of players entering the field (yes today's skill lvl is higher but the intensity of playing in a pro system with endless new players is different)
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Northern Ireland23309 Posts
On November 06 2024 01:53 TT1 wrote:
BW competition at the highest lvl now is definitely much weaker than vs the Kespa days, that's how a player like Sea who has 0 practice is able to qualify into ASL and even make it through the first group stage
real competition happens when there's an endless amount of players entering the field
Be that is it may I’m more asking how the current crop prioritise a tournament like SSL versus other competitions.
Is ASL still a Starleague and if not monetarily, in prestige terms the big, big prize or are players happy enough just earning doing sponmatches and SC university and if they have a good ASL run it’s a neat bonus?
As an outsider, a relative latecomer to BW and not a massive consumer of other content, for me I absolutely get sucked into every game of an ASL.
But is that really the focus of the current player base I guess is what I’m asking
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In general BW players today don't practice as hard because they don't need to, there's no new players coming in so the game is becoming more and more specialized, so the value on competition weakens and talented players can coast and just make money (relative to the other players because the field is closed off).
So ya bonjwa today means less than bonjwa in the 2000's but ultimately BW is still a very hard (and rewarding) game so being recognized as that caliber of player has a lot of value to competitors. It's hard to speculate on these things tho unless you're living it but that's my sense of it.
The question you're asking has diff value to diff players, the fiercest competitors will value the biggest tournament. Everything around the biggest tournament is bonus and what enables them/fuels them to practice. To be the best at something (SK/Flash) you need both internal and external motivation (with enough talent u can actually be good with 1 of those things but to be the best you need both, i suspect many oldschool BW pros only have 1 of those motivators now), that's how players get motivated enough to become dominant.
So as long as you have guys like SK/Flash then it's safe to assume that competition (at the highest lvl) is still prioritized in the pro scene and there's ppl who still have the hunger to be dominant. Imo that's how you know the biggest tourney still has the most value to the top players, cus there's talented players who have enough motivation to still be dominant.
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United States32977 Posts
What is a Bonjwa?
It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used.
TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen).
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Take away the players' abilities to read the crowd during a game. I think one-directional glass would be the best bet.
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hard to call anyone a "bonjwa" these days considering the overall state of professional brood war scene, imo.. but he definitely has some "bonjwa characteristics" if that makes sense.
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Does Soulkey get a Golden Mouse or has that long since been retired?
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On November 06 2024 06:47 Mistakes wrote:
Does Soulkey get a Golden Mouse or has that long since been retired?
He got some special Throphy
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If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ.
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Northern Ireland23309 Posts
On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ.
If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here
I mean, hero didn’t win it like
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I'm unsure but my god Soulkey has looked amazing. Some of these matches are mind bending really. Dude is a savage and I hope he makes it to that status.
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On November 06 2024 11:18 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ. If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here I mean, hero didn’t win it like
If the outcome of a single game is enough to completely change the argument or question of whether sk is a Bonjwa or not, then the answer is a simple NO, he is not a Bonjwa.
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Vatican City State72 Posts
I'm a Soulkey fan, but I'm also a big critic. I don't think he has proven himself against Light. Light has been consistently beating Soulkey in the last few months, and that is very clear from the graphs in the first post.
To put it more clearly: If we ask Light whether Soulkey is better than him (and now I am talking about skills, not about performance/results), does anyone really think he will say Soulkey is better than him? No freaking way. Even Soulkey admitted he was afraid of going against Light in SSL.
Soulkey is extremely deceptive and great and preparing strategies to win series in ASL/SSL, but you cannot rely on them for too long. He acknowledged that after the SSL finals, by saying that he didn't have any strategies left for Sharp.
He also needs to prove himself against Soma and Flash once he gets in shape.
And finally, and probably much more controversial, is the ZvZ issue. Everyone knows how volatile that matchup is. However, during the second half of 2023, both Soulkey and Soma did manage to achieve a win rate above 55%, which basically tells us that it is indeed possible to excel at that matchup. He needs to improve his ZvZ so that at least it consistently stays above 50%.
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Northern Ireland23309 Posts
On November 06 2024 13:11 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 11:18 WombaT wrote:On November 06 2024 11:04 Malongo wrote:
If hero had won the last game in ASL 17 finals this thread would not even exist, sk is just not dominant enough vZ. If my aunt had balls she’d by my uncle as we say over here I mean, hero didn’t win it like If the outcome of a single game is enough to completely change the argument or question of whether sk is a Bonjwa or not, then the answer is a simple NO, he is not a Bonjwa.
Sure, so one can just argue he hasn’t been dominant enough or w/e, rather than making arguments about things that are the opposite of what happened
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It is cool data. But 2020-2022 is pretty crucial too to show how long Light has been at the top of the rankings. in 2020 and 2021 specifically he was pretty much rank 1 for two years straight. His most impressive feat being winning 11 ultimate battle best of 9s in a row vs all the top players of that time. He was regarded as highly as flash during that time. With others catching up to him in 2023 and 2024 his stats overall look less impressive until you look at his winrate vs soulkey past few months.
note: most 2020-2021 data is lost on sponbbang.
correction 10 best 9 wins in a row.
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On November 06 2024 04:52 Waxangel wrote:What is a Bonjwa?It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used. TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen).
Thanks for sharing.
It's a completely different era now than when the Bonjwa term was coined. Doesn't really apply or need to exist any more. All we can say about SK is that he's absolutely amazing in offline tournaments right now, and that at a time when all the other active top zergs are struggling, he's still doing great. It's just too bad that there's only 2 offline tournaments a year right now. Hopefully the PSL picks up some steam.
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On November 07 2024 00:12 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2024 04:52 Waxangel wrote:What is a Bonjwa?It's funny that the FBW community has come to obsess over this term more than the Korean community ever did, without ever understanding the full context in which it was used. TL;DR: If the Korean community starts unanimously calling someone a Bonjwa again, then you can call them a Bonjwa (this will never happen). Thanks for sharing. It's a completely different era now than when the Bonjwa term was coined. Doesn't really apply or need to exist any more. All we can say about SK is that he's absolutely amazing in offline tournaments right now, and that at a time when all the other active top zergs are struggling, he's still doing great. It's just too bad that there's only 2 offline tournaments a year right now. Hopefully the PSL picks up some steam.
The competitive environment has changed. most happens online, some happens offline. we have proleagues, kcm, smaller tourbaments, sponsor matches etc.
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There is no bonjwa today. The term bonjwa was defined in an era with highly professional structures and several tournaments to prove yourself. 1) Due to various reasons, skill level as well as skill density today are just not high enough. 2) Back in the day, some players excelled at OSL, some at MSL and some at proleague. To become a bonjwa, you had to not only dominate a single tournament but dominate across the tournaments, which only very few succeeded in.
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Nice useful statistics, thanks.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qI2z8XR.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eI1F5jH.png)
