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The 8 traffic fatalities are not just for Springfield but all of Clark County for which Springfield is the largest city. Ohio compiles traffic data on an online database at the following site:
https://ohtrafficdata.dps.ohio.gov
I plugged in January 1 to December 31 2019 for Clark county and it appears they also had 8 fatalities for that calendar year which would have been before most of the Haitians showed up. So while MP and Eri were off base for dismissing the statistical significance outright I think if we dig a little deeper we won’t find much more than a cherry picked stat by the NYPost.
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On September 19 2024 03:57 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 02:39 GreenHorizons wrote:
Beyond the statistical minutia, people would do well to realize that Republicans/right-wingers aren't really trying to win the arguments or persuade people based on logic. They are (wittingly or not) simply trying to control the Conversation, and fwiw, effectively winning that fight here and nationally. That could be catastrophic for Democrats if they can't figure out how to stop it. If someone controls the conversation by stabbing themselves in the hand, don't they still look like an idiot? Past examples of republicans controlling the conversation are changing the subject to avoid people talking about a Trump court case or something else. In this case, they 'stabbed themselves in the hand' to garner attention and accidentally took attention away from a second assassination attempt on Trump. What do you think politicians should be talking about that this takes away from?
Yes, that sounds like something that would be reasonable. But on the other hand, if people were reasonable, we wouldn't be here. The fact that Trump has been elected once and is candidate a second time shows that we are not in a world where people react reasonably to stuff.
However, i agree that rightwing people are really good at directing the conversation to rightwing issues. What politicians should be talking about is wealth inequality. Billionaires get richer and siphon more and more wealth from everyone else.
In the past, the cake was growing fast enough that everyone else was still increasing their standard of living at a reasonable rate while those at the top gained more and more. But those greedy fucks are never satisfied, and so we have the current situation where basically all gains in productivity and wealth just make the billionaires more wealthy, while everyone else stagnates.
And they use that wealth to influence everything, starting with politics, to make sure that the system stays set up in such a way that they can siphon more wealth.
That is the thing politicians should be talking about. Day in and day out.
We need to figure out a way for everyone to profit from the progress we make, not just the billionaires. AI would be an amazing thing that should lead to many people having the same amount of stuff while working less, or working more and getting more stuff. Instead it leads to a lot of people being fired while some people work the same amount for the same amount of stuff, and a billionaire gets richer.
Maybe a bit of climate change sprinkled in, because that is also a major problem that will fuck us over majorly in the future. Or a bit about how social media is used to destroy our democracy through disinformation. Also a relevant problem.
But the rightwing billionaire stoogies are very, very good at deflecting from those problems. They just start fucking over some minority, their lapdogs lap it up, and now everyone else has to defend that minority again instead of talking about billionaires fucking all of us over.
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While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices)
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On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices)
I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money.
Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people.
This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation.
Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind.
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On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind.
As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means.
Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants.
What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems.
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Uhm...
Last time the Democrats were in power you got giant improvements in Healthcare and Gay marriage.
This time you got the infrastructure Bill, Marijuana legalization, improvements in enviromental protections, stronger unions and plenty of other objectively good stuff for the "small" worker.
Afaik they also proposed higher taxes on "the rich" in various forms, not that it's enough but it's not nothing.
But yeah, it's not suddenly all rainbows and they don't try to end capitalism and so on, so buh, they are nearly as bad as Republicans!
Your issue is that the average american is (still) pretty darn well off.
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Northern Ireland22762 Posts
On September 19 2024 15:48 Velr wrote:
Uhm...
Last time the Democrats were in power you got giant improvements in Healthcare and Gay marriage.
This time you got the infrastructure Bill, Marijuana legalization, improvements in enviromental protections, stronger unions and plenty of other objectively good stuff for the "small" worker.
Afaik they also proposed higher taxes on "the rich" in various forms, not that it's enough but it's not nothing.
But yeah, it's not suddenly all rainbows and they don't try to end capitalism and so on, so buh, they are nearly as bad as Republicans!
Your issue is that the average american is (still) pretty darn well off.
They think they are, which isn’t necessarily the same thing. Or alternatively that effective real change is effectively out of reach in certain areas
Us humans are an immensely creative, ambitious and hopeful species in many domains, bar political/economic structures where we seem to flip over to that a mentality probably best encapsulated by the classic ‘this is fine’ meme.
I mean you don’t have to go to GH territory, or even where I inhabit to see that mentality in action. Never mind new paradigms, many Americans for whatever reason can’t even envisage having a healthcare system that mirrors what most equivalent countries take for granted
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On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said Show nested quote +I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems.
I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind.
What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better.
Also, generations of inbreeding have completely eliminated his inner monologue. He's literally not capable of modeling future events in his head. He can only experience the canned hamburger he is eating at a given moment. The only way to change his mind is for him to experience the sensation of purchasing more canned hamburgers with the same paycheck.
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On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better. Also, generations of inbreeding have completely eliminated his inner monologue. He's literally not capable of modeling future events in his head. He can only experience the canned hamburger he is eating at a given moment. The only way to change his mind is for him to experience the sensation of purchasing more canned hamburgers with the same paycheck.
Or, alternatively, drag his bumpkin ass along with the rest of American society or leave him to rot. Being beholden to the minority needs to fucking stop and we need to progress forward at any and all costs. If you can't evolve, then you choose to die. Simple 1's and 0's.
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On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better.
It's hard enough to change the minds of progressive Democrats to not support genocide. Maybe at some point focusing on changing "Cletuses'" minds makes sense, but now isn't really it.
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On September 20 2024 02:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better. Also, generations of inbreeding have completely eliminated his inner monologue. He's literally not capable of modeling future events in his head. He can only experience the canned hamburger he is eating at a given moment. The only way to change his mind is for him to experience the sensation of purchasing more canned hamburgers with the same paycheck. Or, alternatively, drag his bumpkin ass along with the rest of American society or leave him to rot. Being beholden to the minority needs to fucking stop and we need to progress forward at any and all costs. If you can't evolve, then you choose to die. Simple 1's and 0's.
That works if it is a small minority. But in the US, it is a large minority. They managed to get a president elected only a few years back, and have had the majority in a lot of courts since then. You can ignore 10% of the population (as long as they are not too violent), but you cannot really ignore 40%.
And regarding your last point, murdering 40% of the population generally doesn't make people believe that you are the good guys. It is also pretty ambitious, i think Stalin, Hitler and Mao all set their goals far lower. Even the Khmer Rouge only managed 25%.
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On September 20 2024 02:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better. It's hard enough to change the minds of progressive Democrats to not support genocide. Maybe at some point focusing on changing "Cletuses'" minds makes sense, but now isn't really it.
Whether it’s Karen saying “but why don’t they just work their way through college like I did before marrying your father” or Cletus saying “Elon needs money for freedom”, it’s the same issue. The thought experiments don’t work on them. They need to have the experience first. They need evidence.
I understand your point and I don’t want to pretend I am not seeing the issue. The issue is real and you’re right. But the way you are framing this issue implies some kind of new situation. It isn’t new. These Karens (got mine democrats) and Cletuses are not budging. It’s not reasonable to say we need to just keep this up. We can keep your messaging while also doing things like what Massachusetts has done and what Oregon is trying to do.
Can I just ask you directly? Do you agree there is an issue of people not being convinced? People can hear what you’re saying and think you’re wrong? And they just keep sucking that capitalist dick because it’s a part of their identity?
I’m saying the only way to erode that is with evidence and to give them a chance to feel the impact. We can’t just talk to them. It’s not enough. And we can do both.
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On September 20 2024 02:58 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 02:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better. It's hard enough to change the minds of progressive Democrats to not support genocide. Maybe at some point focusing on changing "Cletuses'" minds makes sense, but now isn't really it. Whether it’s Karen saying “but why don’t they just work their way through college like I did before marrying your father” or Cletus saying “Elon needs money for freedom”, it’s the same issue. The thought experiments don’t work on them. They need to have the experience first. They need evidence. I understand your point and I don’t want to pretend I am not seeing the issue. The issue is real and you’re right. But the way you are framing this issue implies some kind of new situation. It isn’t new. These Karens (got mine democrats) and Cletuses are not budging. It’s not reasonable to say we need to just keep this up. We can keep your messaging while also doing things like what Massachusetts has done and what Oregon is trying to do. Can I just ask you directly? Do you agree there is an issue of people not being convinced? People can hear what you’re saying and think you’re wrong? And they just keep sucking that capitalist dick because it’s a part of their identity? I’m saying the only way to erode that is with evidence and to give them a chance to feel the impact. We can’t just talk to them. It’s not enough. And we can do both. This discussion was basically thoroughly hashed in the 60's/70's and working with Democrats (and their Republican friends) to do what you're suggesting was what won.
50+ years in, I think we can safely say it's clearly not working under their guidance.
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In regards to Republican leadership (Trump, Vance, and conservative Congresspeople) lying about Haitian immigrants stealing and eating cats and dogs in Ohio: Apparently, JD Vance's team reached out to local authorities to ask if those rumors were true, Vance's team was explicitly told that those rumors were fake, and Vance still decided to perpetuate the nonsense that it was happening anyway [1]. Additionally, Vance accidentally admitted in a recent interview that he simply created that story. When called out for fabricating the story and bragging about it, he doubled-down on the lie that he's being told these things are happening by eyewitnesses [2]. Furthermore, it's weird that Vance is trying to take credit for the fake story, when apparently the lie was actually first fabricated by a woman named Erika Lee, who admitted she had no good reason to attack Haitian immigrants and felt guilty for spreading the falsehood [3].
[1] "As it turns out, the Ohio senator and his vice presidential campaign knew there was no credibility to the claims hours after he first aired them publicly, but chose to keep pushing them anyway, plunging the town into chaos. According to a Wednesday report from The Wall Street Journal, on Sept. 9 — the day Vance first posted on X claiming local cats were being eaten by Springfield’s Haitians — most of which are in the town legally — his office called local authorities to verify the claim. A Vance staffer “asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten [true]?’” City Manager Bryan Heck told the Journal. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”"
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/vance-lies-haitians-office-fact-check-1235105427/
[2] "If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,” the Ohio senator said.
Bash replied, “You just said that this is a story that you created.”
Vance said, “It comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we’re creating a story, meaning we’re creating the American media focusing on it.""
https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/vance-immigrants-pets-springfield-ohio-cnntv/index.html
[3] "Erika Lee, a woman from Springfield, Ohio, who initially made a Facebook post alleging that local Haitian immigrants were "eating pets," leading to significant national attention on the small city, has confessed she had no direct evidence supporting such a claim. ... "It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Lee told NBC News on Friday. Lee said the incident has left her ridden with guilt and anxiety due to the controversy it generated. Her post detailed the disappearance of a neighbor's cat and included her neighbor's suspicions that their Haitian residents were involved in the incident."
https://www.newsweek.com/springfield-woman-erika-lee-haitians-eating-pets-rumor-speaks-out-1953851
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On September 20 2024 02:51 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 02:40 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On September 20 2024 02:34 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 11:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2024 08:30 Mohdoo wrote:On September 19 2024 05:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
While I generally agree with Simberto about the billionaires, Democrats won't substantively do that because plenty of the billionaires donate just as much to Democrats, Trump being a poignant example of that for most of his despicable life. It's an ostensibly rational thing to do as a billionaire.
Democrats already decided what they will "talk about" in this context and it was supposed to be bodily autonomy. That flopped because (among other reasons) even a cursory examination of their rhetoric exposed it as cynically hollow at best.
Democrats intended to spend the week talking about Amber Thurman and presumably some of them are, it's just not what the national Conversation is focused on because Democrats can't help themselves and Republicans are better at controlling it (in part because of bipartisan efforts to insist those two are and will always be people's only choices) I think Massachusetts could be pointed to as an example here. They made a very small change. Way less than what I consider a moral imperative. And they still raked in a huge amount of money. Similar to how a lot of our current tax structure issues are from a slow and steady erosion of reasonable taxation, I think it’s reasonable to recognize pulling it back an inch is still an enormous gain. If Oregon suddenly had another billion dollars, it would help a ton of people. This isn’t just incrementalism. The cultural impact of “we raised taxes on rich people and it was a good thing long term” is really important. It makes a big difference. The working class will keep losing the culture war being pushed by the ruling class until we have something to point at as evidence or recent, direct, targeted taxation. Edit: to more clearly specify my point: Cletus isn’t on the fence right now. Cletus firmly believes it is better to give billionaires a tax break. We need to win over Cletus. We need to show him his life can be better by taxing the rich. The working class has already been successfully divided and we’ll never get to a good place if we don’t win over Cletus first. Cletus will fight against his own wellbeing to the death until we change his mind. As I said I believe the US has passed a point of no return and it's just taking the population a while to come to grips with what that actually means. Basically there's plenty of space for Democrats (social and otherwise) to occupy between being as bad as Republicans and actually fixing things (even to their standards, let alone objectively fixing things). They have no intention of leaving that space and their supporters have no intention of forcing them to, so they won't. Short of something extremely drastic happening outside of their control, the course is set to a destination none of us (even the people supporting the parties) actually wants. What you're suggesting isn't new, people have been telling Democrats that for decades. One of the key roadblocks is that the US is a capitalist system and capitalists run capitalist systems, not politicians or the masses. What people most commonly know as "regulatory capture" isn't a bug, it's a feature and an inevitability of capitalist systems. I agree in every single way. But here is the issue: Cletus is a proud capitalist. He identifies with capitalism because he has been victimized to such an extreme that all he has is his admiration of billionaires to keep him from killing himself. He is ride or die capitalism. He loves it. We need to help change his mind. What I am saying is that Cletus will swat your hand away when you try to give him a better life through an alternative economic/political system. He will fight against it. Cletus is like 40% of voters. Until he is on board, its dead. We need to find ways to show him his life can be better. Also, generations of inbreeding have completely eliminated his inner monologue. He's literally not capable of modeling future events in his head. He can only experience the canned hamburger he is eating at a given moment. The only way to change his mind is for him to experience the sensation of purchasing more canned hamburgers with the same paycheck. Or, alternatively, drag his bumpkin ass along with the rest of American society or leave him to rot. Being beholden to the minority needs to fucking stop and we need to progress forward at any and all costs. If you can't evolve, then you choose to die. Simple 1's and 0's. That works if it is a small minority. But in the US, it is a large minority. They managed to get a president elected only a few years back, and have had the majority in a lot of courts since then. You can ignore 10% of the population (as long as they are not too violent), but you cannot really ignore 40%. And regarding your last point, murdering 40% of the population generally doesn't make people believe that you are the good guys. It is also pretty ambitious, i think Stalin, Hitler and Mao all set their goals far lower. Even the Khmer Rouge only managed 25%.
Don't take the word die literally. It's just meant to illustrate that if they fight or refuse to evolve with society, then we leave them to live how they want and they no longer have access to the rest of what society has established and built. They don't want healthcare to be affordable and universal? Then they can't access what the rest has access to. Intentionally and consciously voting against their own interests and hindering that of others shouldn't be tolerated.
It's some kind of sick perversion to gleefully put lives in danger because of some conspiracy or willfully engrained ignorance of the world at large. This isn't a game. This is real life. And should carry real consequences for continually doing things of this nature. Dems have a very long way to go in order to get their morals where they say they are, but at least they're not voting against IVF because "reasons" or other life-saving/bettering policies. It's all nonsense.
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On September 20 2024 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In regards to Republican leadership (Trump, Vance, and conservative Congresspeople) lying about Haitian immigrants stealing and eating cats and dogs in Ohio: Apparently, JD Vance's team reached out to local authorities to ask if those rumors were true, Vance's team was explicitly told that those rumors were fake, and Vance still decided to perpetuate the nonsense that it was happening anyway [1]. Additionally, Vance accidentally admitted in a recent interview that he simply created that story. When called out for fabricating the story and bragging about it, he doubled-down on the lie that he's being told these things are happening by eyewitnesses [2]. Furthermore, it's weird that Vance is trying to take credit for the fake story, when apparently the lie was actually first fabricated by a woman named Erika Lee, who admitted she had no good reason to attack Haitian immigrants and felt guilty for spreading the falsehood [3]. [1] "As it turns out, the Ohio senator and his vice presidential campaign knew there was no credibility to the claims hours after he first aired them publicly, but chose to keep pushing them anyway, plunging the town into chaos. According to a Wednesday report from The Wall Street Journal, on Sept. 9 — the day Vance first posted on X claiming local cats were being eaten by Springfield’s Haitians — most of which are in the town legally — his office called local authorities to verify the claim. A Vance staffer “asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten [true]?’” City Manager Bryan Heck told the Journal. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”" https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/vance-lies-haitians-office-fact-check-1235105427/ [2] "If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,” the Ohio senator said. Bash replied, “You just said that this is a story that you created.” Vance said, “It comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we’re creating a story, meaning we’re creating the American media focusing on it."" https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/vance-immigrants-pets-springfield-ohio-cnntv/index.html [3] "Erika Lee, a woman from Springfield, Ohio, who initially made a Facebook post alleging that local Haitian immigrants were "eating pets," leading to significant national attention on the small city, has confessed she had no direct evidence supporting such a claim. ... "It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Lee told NBC News on Friday. Lee said the incident has left her ridden with guilt and anxiety due to the controversy it generated. Her post detailed the disappearance of a neighbor's cat and included her neighbor's suspicions that their Haitian residents were involved in the incident." https://www.newsweek.com/springfield-woman-erika-lee-haitians-eating-pets-rumor-speaks-out-1953851
This is such an absurd thing as a whole. People just make up random shit, and apparently that is not even a problem for their voters. How is this acceptable? Are truth and facts just completely gone as a relevant concept?
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On September 20 2024 04:19 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In regards to Republican leadership (Trump, Vance, and conservative Congresspeople) lying about Haitian immigrants stealing and eating cats and dogs in Ohio: Apparently, JD Vance's team reached out to local authorities to ask if those rumors were true, Vance's team was explicitly told that those rumors were fake, and Vance still decided to perpetuate the nonsense that it was happening anyway [1]. Additionally, Vance accidentally admitted in a recent interview that he simply created that story. When called out for fabricating the story and bragging about it, he doubled-down on the lie that he's being told these things are happening by eyewitnesses [2]. Furthermore, it's weird that Vance is trying to take credit for the fake story, when apparently the lie was actually first fabricated by a woman named Erika Lee, who admitted she had no good reason to attack Haitian immigrants and felt guilty for spreading the falsehood [3]. [1] "As it turns out, the Ohio senator and his vice presidential campaign knew there was no credibility to the claims hours after he first aired them publicly, but chose to keep pushing them anyway, plunging the town into chaos. According to a Wednesday report from The Wall Street Journal, on Sept. 9 — the day Vance first posted on X claiming local cats were being eaten by Springfield’s Haitians — most of which are in the town legally — his office called local authorities to verify the claim. A Vance staffer “asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten [true]?’” City Manager Bryan Heck told the Journal. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”" https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/vance-lies-haitians-office-fact-check-1235105427/ [2] "If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,” the Ohio senator said. Bash replied, “You just said that this is a story that you created.” Vance said, “It comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we’re creating a story, meaning we’re creating the American media focusing on it."" https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/vance-immigrants-pets-springfield-ohio-cnntv/index.html [3] "Erika Lee, a woman from Springfield, Ohio, who initially made a Facebook post alleging that local Haitian immigrants were "eating pets," leading to significant national attention on the small city, has confessed she had no direct evidence supporting such a claim. ... "It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Lee told NBC News on Friday. Lee said the incident has left her ridden with guilt and anxiety due to the controversy it generated. Her post detailed the disappearance of a neighbor's cat and included her neighbor's suspicions that their Haitian residents were involved in the incident." https://www.newsweek.com/springfield-woman-erika-lee-haitians-eating-pets-rumor-speaks-out-1953851 This is such an absurd thing as a whole. People just make up random shit, and apparently that is not even a problem for their voters. How is this acceptable? Are truth and facts just completely gone as a relevant concept?
For Republicans - especially Trump voters - yes. Remember that Donald Trump's initial popularity as a political candidate came from him spreading racist birther lies about Obama, so he's been anti-truth and anti-facts from day one.
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On September 20 2024 04:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:19 Simberto wrote:On September 20 2024 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In regards to Republican leadership (Trump, Vance, and conservative Congresspeople) lying about Haitian immigrants stealing and eating cats and dogs in Ohio: Apparently, JD Vance's team reached out to local authorities to ask if those rumors were true, Vance's team was explicitly told that those rumors were fake, and Vance still decided to perpetuate the nonsense that it was happening anyway [1]. Additionally, Vance accidentally admitted in a recent interview that he simply created that story. When called out for fabricating the story and bragging about it, he doubled-down on the lie that he's being told these things are happening by eyewitnesses [2]. Furthermore, it's weird that Vance is trying to take credit for the fake story, when apparently the lie was actually first fabricated by a woman named Erika Lee, who admitted she had no good reason to attack Haitian immigrants and felt guilty for spreading the falsehood [3]. [1] "As it turns out, the Ohio senator and his vice presidential campaign knew there was no credibility to the claims hours after he first aired them publicly, but chose to keep pushing them anyway, plunging the town into chaos. According to a Wednesday report from The Wall Street Journal, on Sept. 9 — the day Vance first posted on X claiming local cats were being eaten by Springfield’s Haitians — most of which are in the town legally — his office called local authorities to verify the claim. A Vance staffer “asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten [true]?’” City Manager Bryan Heck told the Journal. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”" https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/vance-lies-haitians-office-fact-check-1235105427/ [2] "If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,” the Ohio senator said. Bash replied, “You just said that this is a story that you created.” Vance said, “It comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we’re creating a story, meaning we’re creating the American media focusing on it."" https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/vance-immigrants-pets-springfield-ohio-cnntv/index.html [3] "Erika Lee, a woman from Springfield, Ohio, who initially made a Facebook post alleging that local Haitian immigrants were "eating pets," leading to significant national attention on the small city, has confessed she had no direct evidence supporting such a claim. ... "It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Lee told NBC News on Friday. Lee said the incident has left her ridden with guilt and anxiety due to the controversy it generated. Her post detailed the disappearance of a neighbor's cat and included her neighbor's suspicions that their Haitian residents were involved in the incident." https://www.newsweek.com/springfield-woman-erika-lee-haitians-eating-pets-rumor-speaks-out-1953851 This is such an absurd thing as a whole. People just make up random shit, and apparently that is not even a problem for their voters. How is this acceptable? Are truth and facts just completely gone as a relevant concept? For Republicans - especially Trump voters - yes. Remember that Donald Trump's initial popularity as a political candidate came from him spreading racist birther lies about Obama, so he's been anti-truth and anti-facts from day one.
The biggest inauguration Ever!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzHXelQi_A
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United States9913 Posts
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On September 20 2024 04:32 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 20 2024 04:19 Simberto wrote:On September 20 2024 03:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:In regards to Republican leadership (Trump, Vance, and conservative Congresspeople) lying about Haitian immigrants stealing and eating cats and dogs in Ohio: Apparently, JD Vance's team reached out to local authorities to ask if those rumors were true, Vance's team was explicitly told that those rumors were fake, and Vance still decided to perpetuate the nonsense that it was happening anyway [1]. Additionally, Vance accidentally admitted in a recent interview that he simply created that story. When called out for fabricating the story and bragging about it, he doubled-down on the lie that he's being told these things are happening by eyewitnesses [2]. Furthermore, it's weird that Vance is trying to take credit for the fake story, when apparently the lie was actually first fabricated by a woman named Erika Lee, who admitted she had no good reason to attack Haitian immigrants and felt guilty for spreading the falsehood [3]. [1] "As it turns out, the Ohio senator and his vice presidential campaign knew there was no credibility to the claims hours after he first aired them publicly, but chose to keep pushing them anyway, plunging the town into chaos. According to a Wednesday report from The Wall Street Journal, on Sept. 9 — the day Vance first posted on X claiming local cats were being eaten by Springfield’s Haitians — most of which are in the town legally — his office called local authorities to verify the claim. A Vance staffer “asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten [true]?’” City Manager Bryan Heck told the Journal. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”" https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/vance-lies-haitians-office-fact-check-1235105427/ [2] "If I have to create stories so that the American media actually pays attention to the suffering of the American people, then that’s what I’m going to do,” the Ohio senator said. Bash replied, “You just said that this is a story that you created.” Vance said, “It comes from firsthand accounts from my constituents. I say that we’re creating a story, meaning we’re creating the American media focusing on it."" https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/vance-immigrants-pets-springfield-ohio-cnntv/index.html [3] "Erika Lee, a woman from Springfield, Ohio, who initially made a Facebook post alleging that local Haitian immigrants were "eating pets," leading to significant national attention on the small city, has confessed she had no direct evidence supporting such a claim. ... "It just exploded into something I didn't mean to happen," Lee told NBC News on Friday. Lee said the incident has left her ridden with guilt and anxiety due to the controversy it generated. Her post detailed the disappearance of a neighbor's cat and included her neighbor's suspicions that their Haitian residents were involved in the incident." https://www.newsweek.com/springfield-woman-erika-lee-haitians-eating-pets-rumor-speaks-out-1953851 This is such an absurd thing as a whole. People just make up random shit, and apparently that is not even a problem for their voters. How is this acceptable? Are truth and facts just completely gone as a relevant concept? For Republicans - especially Trump voters - yes. Remember that Donald Trump's initial popularity as a political candidate came from him spreading racist birther lies about Obama, so he's been anti-truth and anti-facts from day one. The biggest inauguration Ever! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PKzHXelQi_A
Nothing like Trump being a sore loser even on his own inauguration day.
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EPT
