EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4407
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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frontgarden2222
58 Posts
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Introvert
United States4599 Posts
On September 20 2024 09:47 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: So the Republicans are going to deny everything and declare it as Fake News, even though his usernames and email addresses have been verified? Denial is pretty normal in politics, so I assume that's the road that will be taken. It's certainly more likely than your silly insinuation that it will be defended. There was a literal nazi who tried to run as a Republican in an IL congresinal seat for years and finally won the nom cause no one else challenged him (it was not a district the GOP would ever win, so no one serious would really try). Guess what? He wasn't excused or supported. + Show Spoiler + dems also have issues when it comes to turning a blind eye, but I can acknowledge that yes, on this case it will be a GOP problem. Again with the addemum that the media balance makes each party deal with these things differently. But I will say good on Fetterman, for example, for supporting the removal of Menendez when none of his colleagues wanted to lose the vote. Good on him for standing against the anti-semite bigots in his party too, now that i think about it. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
On September 20 2024 10:05 Introvert wrote: Denial is pretty normal in politics, so I assume that's the road that will be taken. It's certainly more likely than your silly insinuation that it will be defended. Not sure why you think that would be a "silly insinuation"; Trump has done things a hundred times worse than Robinson, and has been defended and endorsed by Republicans every step of the way. Robinson isn't as popular or as rich or as white as Trump, so Robinson might not be supported the same way that Trump has been, but that would be an exception to how Republicans have been behaving over the past 8 years. | ||
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Introvert
United States4599 Posts
On September 20 2024 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Not sure why you think that would be a "silly insinuation"; Trump has done things a hundred times worse than Robinson, and has been defended and endorsed by Republicans every step of the way. Robinson isn't as popular or as rich or as white as Trump, so Robinson might not be supported the same way that Trump has been, but that would be an exception to how Republicans have been behaving over the past 8 years. By "defend" I don't mean "excuse." Edit: a good example of reality denial surrounds a huge event hat just happened. Biden being replaced. Biden was perfectly capable being president again, until, suddenly, he wasn't. It even showed the same unwillingness by party voters or elites to acknowledge a problem. Even now, many still won't. Forcing Biden out is always couched as a tactical play "well we don't think he can win" instead of "he is obviously not capable of being president." It's not as flashy as a black Nazi, but it's a similar thing, while also having the uniquely Democrat problem of the press be in on it until the fantasy is unsustainable. If they had a real primary earlier they might not have been forced to pick a candidate that still only a 50/50 chance. I actually like the Biden analogy (or the Bob Menendez one). | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
Fair enough; I had considered those two words to be mostly interchangeable - I figured if someone were to defend those words and actions, then those people would be making excuses - but all right. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22322 Posts
On September 20 2024 06:19 Mohdoo wrote: I think we're talking past each other so I will try to be more clear. Today, American voters would vote against the ideas you and I both agree are necessary. I am asking you how we change their minds. I am saying I think baby steps are necessary to give people a chance to witness those benefits. What are you saying is the better path to changing people's minds? Organizing the people that don't need their minds changed to do the things that change people's minds. Organized mass civil disobedience, community service/outreach, and non-reformist reforms are core aspects of that. When you actually look at the history of things that could be called positive changes in the US, that's how we got it. "Baby step" electoralism is where those positive changes go to die. That's why Democrats insist on their supporters abandoning the things that work and committing to electoralism so hard they'd vote for someone that murdered their own mother in front of them in cold blood. | ||
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frontgarden2222
58 Posts
Do you know how hard it is to get 87% or even 70% of people to agree on something? | ||
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Introvert
United States4599 Posts
On September 20 2024 10:24 frontgarden2222 wrote: Polling doesn't confirm that at all. A New York Times snap poll had 87% of Americans agree that Biden was right to drop out. 70% of Americans in a Data for Progress snap poll thought Biden was too old to run as president post debate. Do you know how hard it is to get 87% or even 70% of people to agree on something? Actually a great support to my point. AFTER the debate Americans said he should drop... before the debate what percentage of dems believed that? It was far less than half, he won the primary with 80+% of the vote, and multiple states even cancelled primaries to make sure he won. Dems were busy accusing people of malicious edits or even faking clips of Biden's infirmities. The overall sentiment of the electorate is a great contrast the opinion of almost everyone else. I don't know off the top of my head, but even post debate I think a sizable portion of Dems didn't want him replaced. You are helping me make my point. | ||
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frontgarden2222
58 Posts
On September 20 2024 10:30 Introvert wrote: Actually a great support to my point. AFTER the debate Americans said he should drop... before the debate what percentage of dems believed that? It was far less than half, he won the primary with 80+% of the vote, and multiple states even cancelled primaries to make sure he won. Dems were busy accusing people of malicious edits of even faking clips of Biden's infirmities. The overall sentiment of the electorate is a great contrast the opinion of almost everyone else. I don't know off the top of my head, but even post debate I think a sizable portion of Dems didn't want him replaced. You are helping me make my point. From Feb, ABC News/Ipsos poll claims 69% of Democrats thought both Trump and Biden were too old to serve a second term. Make no mistake, there was no real enthusiasm for Biden and people were desperately looking for any other solution. Thinking he shouldn't drop out, because you haven't been presented with a convincing solution, is different from not wanting him to run for a second term. And clearly a majority of Democrats thought he was too old to be running way back in Feb of this year. All the debate proved to the wider public, who for the first time saw Biden in an uncontrolled environment, was way worse along than previously imagined. His State of the Union performance papered some cracks but his debate performance was wretched. And with the establishment of newer facts, people on the outskirts put enough pressure to force him to step down. The 'coup' happened because the Democratic support base put forward an ultimatum and withheld support, not because Nancy Pelosi and the DNC wanted to scalp a sitting president. Its a rare situation where everyone in the Democratic Party got what they wanted. Are the same things going to happen with Mark Robinson? | ||
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Introvert
United States4599 Posts
On September 20 2024 10:56 frontgarden2222 wrote: From Feb, ABC News/Ipsos poll claims 69% of Democrats thought both Trump and Biden were too old to serve a second term. Make no mistake, there was no real enthusiasm for Biden and people were desperately looking for any other solution. Thinking he shouldn't drop out, because you haven't been presented with a convincing solution, is different from not wanting him to run for a second term. And clearly a majority of Democrats thought he was too old to be running way back in Feb of this year. All the debate proved to the wider public, who for the first time saw Biden in an uncontrolled environment, was way worse along than previously imagined. His State of the Union performance papered some cracks but his debate performance was wretched. And with the establishment of newer facts, people on the outskirts put enough pressure to force him to step down. The 'coup' happened because the Democratic support base put forward an ultimatum and withheld support, not because Nancy Pelosi and the DNC wanted to scalp a sitting president. Its a rare situation where everyone in the Democratic Party got what they wanted. Are the same things going to happen with Mark Robinson? That's interesting, pretty sure there were other polls where like 30% of dems said he would be too old, that article mentions the Hurr report, maybe that was it. But yes, for all the reasons I already gave, the situations are very similar. wider public, who for the first time saw Biden in an uncontrolled environment, ... because Nancy Pelosi and the DNC wanted to scalp a sitting president. I don't know what reason you have for thinking Biden's ouster was not heavily influenced by the elected members of that party, but it most certainly was. For the record I'm going to object to the first sentance, it was obvious to anyone paying attention. But within the party, which is my entire point, it was forbidden to talk about this except with hushed whispers. Days before the debate there were dems out there saying Biden was always super sharp and in command! I don't want to rehash the details. But the dem party was dutifully ignoring what the wider public saw and was criticizing those who pointed it out right up until the moment they forced him out. And to reiterate, even now the politicians won't say that he's incapable, just that he can't win. So yes, it's a similar phenomenon except it has a Democrat twist given the Democrat's different relationship with the media. This is just a normal human desire to double down playing itself out in politics. | ||
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frontgarden2222
58 Posts
For a while, House and Senate were running away from Biden because of the double hater theory. Jacky Rosen in Nevada is the most obvious where she was outpolling Biden by like high single to double digits. She might say that she supports the president but she clearly spent most of her time avoiding being attached to the man. Most other Democrats did the same thing. People can see the difference in how people speak and how they move. This was happening as far back as late 2023, of which news outlets noticed elected Democrats starting to break from Biden. They might have confronted Biden after the debate but the real absolute end to Biden's campaign was when donors and local branches withheld all their support to Biden. There was no longer any campaign anymore because the entire campaign apparatus revolted. Nancy Pelosi and the DNC would have pulled some strings but it was absolutely the wider Democratic base pulling their support and forcing the issue before it would be too late. Yes, doubling down is normal but the Democrats eventually pulled the plug when presented with the facts. Are the Republicans going to do the same thing to Robinson or back their man till the end? If he was polling 25% points better than his opponent, I'd at least understand but he's the sole reason North Carolina is maybe competitive for Harris. He's not a good candidate and you can clearly improve your electoral chances by putting some random dude that can string a sentence together on the ballot. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15277 Posts
This situation with Mark Robinson is hilariously airtight. We basically never get a scandal like this where the evidence is so damming and conclusive. He said some really heinous stuff and we can all have 100% confidence it was him. I understand the reflex to ignore it or not read a left wing summary of what he specifically said because you assume you can’t trust it or it’s not 100% fact. Many such cases in the past. Not this one. This one is conclusive. | ||
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Introvert
United States4599 Posts
2) "Dems" didn't pull the plug, they convinced Biden to step aside, that was the only options. That's actually a lot like Robinson too, actually. He can't be forced off the ballot, he has to go willingly. I'm really not sure you are disagreeing with me (or agreeing). On September 20 2024 12:54 Mohdoo wrote: Introvert, I understand the cynicism and skepticism. It’s a very polarized world right now and there is a lot of bad faith discussion all over the place. And social media does a good job at feeding us the worst examples of the other side to fuel our anger and confirm our biases. This situation with Mark Robinson is hilariously airtight. We basically never get a scandal like this where the evidence is so damming and conclusive. He said some really heinous stuff and we can all have 100% confidence it was him. I understand the reflex to ignore it or not read a left wing summary of what he specifically said because you assume you can’t trust it or it’s not 100% fact. Many such cases in the past. Not this one. This one is conclusive. I am not doubting it myself, he should drop but he wont | ||
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frontgarden2222
58 Posts
I think we're talking past each other at this point (or at the very start, I dunno). Looking into the tea leaves more, this feels like a push job by the NC GOP to get him to leave before the deadline...which has passed by now so Robinson vs Stein is 100% locked in at this point. They didn't push hard enough. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On September 20 2024 13:44 frontgarden2222 wrote: They didn't convince shit, Biden was absolutely sure he was winning and was still sure he was winning after resigning as the party nominee. He was forced to leave for the sake of the party because the party apparatus, notably donors and local party infrastructure, all bailed on him. He had no campaign anymore. I think we're talking past each other at this point (or at the very start, I dunno). Looking into the tea leaves more, this feels like a push job by the NC GOP to get him to leave before the deadline...which has passed by now so Robinson vs Stein is 100% locked in at this point. They didn't push hard enough. This is all true (at least according to what I read about it) but Biden COULD have not stepped down. He would have been doomed for sure, but the simple fact is, if Biden chose not to step down then there was nothing the Democrats could do about it except to just accept that he would lose. I mean I GUESS they could have turned on him in the convention but that would have looked HORRIBLE. The Republicans don't even have such an option for Robinson. If he doesn't step down on his own they are stuck with him. | ||
KwarK
United States41470 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:02 Vindicare605 wrote: This is all true (at least according to what I read about it) but Biden COULD have not stepped down. He would have been doomed for sure, but the simple fact is, if Biden chose not to step down then there was nothing the Democrats could do about it except to just accept that he would lose. I mean I GUESS they could have turned on him in the convention but that would have looked HORRIBLE. The Republicans don't even have such an option for Robinson. If he doesn't step down on his own they are stuck with him. Sure, but they could have disavowed him at any time. He's been a shitty person for a very, very long time, and the new bombshell information about him actually isn't that uncommon for Mark Robinson: "In the 1980s, Robinson paid for his girlfriend to have an abortion, and later married his girlfriend.[36][37] In 2018, Robinson wrote that abortion was "genocide" and "murder".[36][37] In 2019, Robinson described abortion as "child sacrifice".[36][38]" "Prior to running for lieutenant governor, he frequently made Facebook posts that invoked antisemitic stereotypes and downplayed the harms of Nazism.[48][49]" "In March 2023, more of Robinson's past social-media statements emerged, including Facebook posts appearing to call the figure of 6 million Jews perishing in the Holocaust into question;[49]" "After the 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting, Robinson wrote that "Homosexuality is STILL an abominable sin and I WILL NOT join in 'celebrating gay pride.'"[13]" "In a June 2021 speech at a Seagrove, North Carolina church, Robinson disparaged "transgenderism and homosexuality", saying: "There's no reason anybody anywhere in America should be telling any child about transgenderism, homosexuality, any of that filth."" "Robinson said in 2016 that feminism is "watered by the devil, and is harvested and sold by his minions"[58] Also in 2016, Robinson asserted that feminists were "just as bad, if not worse" than racists.[59]" "Robinson in 2016 condemned women who breastfeed in public as "shameless attention hogs".[59] Robinson surmised in 2017: "The only thing worse than a woman who doesn’t know her place, is a man who doesn’t know his".[59]" "In 2010, Robinson declared: "I absolutely want to go back to the America where women couldn’t vote.”[59]" "Robinson called Obama "a worthless, anti-American atheist"[14] and posted "birther" memes;[13]" "Robinson defended the Kent State massacre of 1970, in which National Guardsmen killed several students at Ohio's Kent State University who were protesting the Vietnam War." "Robinson filed for bankruptcy on three occasions:[24][48] in 1998, 1999 and 2003.[48][99]" "According to court records, Robinson did not pay seven years of federal income tax,[99] and had tax liens placed on him by the Internal Revenue Service as recently as 2012.[24]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Robinson_(American_politician) This dude has been a toxic individual for a very long time, and has been supported by the Republican party since at least 2020. Maybe it's too late now, but Republicans let him exist in their space for plenty of time without doing anything. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Sure, but they could have disavowed him at any time. He's been a shitty person for a very, very long time, and the new bombshell information about him actually isn't that uncommon for Mark Robinson: "In the 1980s, Robinson paid for his girlfriend to have an abortion, and later married his girlfriend.[36][37] In 2018, Robinson wrote that abortion was "genocide" and "murder".[36][37] In 2019, Robinson described abortion as "child sacrifice".[36][38]" "Prior to running for lieutenant governor, he frequently made Facebook posts that invoked antisemitic stereotypes and downplayed the harms of Nazism.[48][49]" "In March 2023, more of Robinson's past social-media statements emerged, including Facebook posts appearing to call the figure of 6 million Jews perishing in the Holocaust into question;[49]" "After the 2016 Pulse nightclub shooting, Robinson wrote that "Homosexuality is STILL an abominable sin and I WILL NOT join in 'celebrating gay pride.'"[13]" "In a June 2021 speech at a Seagrove, North Carolina church, Robinson disparaged "transgenderism and homosexuality", saying: "There's no reason anybody anywhere in America should be telling any child about transgenderism, homosexuality, any of that filth."" "Robinson said in 2016 that feminism is "watered by the devil, and is harvested and sold by his minions"[58] Also in 2016, Robinson asserted that feminists were "just as bad, if not worse" than racists.[59]" "Robinson in 2016 condemned women who breastfeed in public as "shameless attention hogs".[59] Robinson surmised in 2017: "The only thing worse than a woman who doesn’t know her place, is a man who doesn’t know his".[59]" "In 2010, Robinson declared: "I absolutely want to go back to the America where women couldn’t vote.”[59]" "Robinson called Obama "a worthless, anti-American atheist"[14] and posted "birther" memes;[13]" "Robinson defended the Kent State massacre of 1970, in which National Guardsmen killed several students at Ohio's Kent State University who were protesting the Vietnam War." "Robinson filed for bankruptcy on three occasions:[24][48] in 1998, 1999 and 2003.[48][99]" "According to court records, Robinson did not pay seven years of federal income tax,[99] and had tax liens placed on him by the Internal Revenue Service as recently as 2012.[24]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Robinson_(American_politician) This dude has been a toxic individual for a very long time, and has been supported by the Republican party since at least 2020. Maybe it's too late now, but Republicans let him exist in their space for plenty of time without doing anything. Oh I agree, and when it comes to the modern Republican I don't find it hard to believe that if you did a deep background check on any of them that something dirty would be hiding in all of their closets. So it doesn't matter much which one of them runs as long as their dirty laundry doesn't get aired out in public. But that's besides the point that I was making in that post. I just wanted to point out how the situation with Biden was different. The Democrats still had one more nuclear option they could have played had Biden not stepped down on his own, but that never had to happen because he DID step down when he was finally pressured to. Which was still WAY later than he should have IMO but whatever. The Republicans don't have options right now. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43400 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:54 Vindicare605 wrote: Oh I agree, and when it comes to the modern Republican I don't find it hard to believe that if you did a deep background check on any of them that something dirty would be hiding in all of their closets. So it doesn't matter much which one of them runs as long as their dirty laundry doesn't get aired out in public. But that's besides the point that I was making in that post. I just wanted to point out how the situation with Biden was different. The Democrats still had one more nuclear option they could have played had Biden not stepped down on his own, but that never had to happen because he DID step down when he was finally pressured to. Which was still WAY later than he should have IMO but whatever. The Republicans don't have options right now. Agreed. As a result, I hope Mark Robinson loses his race and I hope the Republican party pays a price for looking the other way for so long. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22770 Posts
On September 20 2024 19:21 KwarK wrote: They’d be forced to carry him to term? Haha, that’s quality | ||
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