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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 19 2024 03:31 WGT-Baal wrote: The wargate mechanics prevents decent all around solid gateway units anyway Always has, always will. As long as Warp Gate is a core mechanic, balancing Protoss is impossible. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8975 Posts
On August 18 2024 22:25 Balnazza wrote: Are you familiar with Marcus Porcius Cato? Imba ghost delenda est On the subject of dragoon, it's kind of useless to talk about balance. Obviously, you can't just parachute dragoon into the games, things would have to be rebalanced, meta would shift, maps would maybe get revised... And while the dragoon looks cool, it's kind of a boring unit, stalkers are much more fun with blink as an ability. So no, no need for dragoons. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22746 Posts
On August 19 2024 11:35 Nakajin wrote: Imba ghost delenda est On the subject of dragoon, it's kind of useless to talk about balance. Obviously, you can't just parachute dragoon into the games, things would have to be rebalanced, meta would shift, maps would maybe get revised... And while the dragoon looks cool, it's kind of a boring unit, stalkers are much more fun with blink as an ability. So no, no need for dragoons. It would be hype AF to hear ‘I have returned’ again though I gotta say | ||
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CMS_Flash
Hong Kong47 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 19 2024 15:43 CMS_Flash wrote: What about Reaver LOL? Yea because what Protoss needs is yet another slow, splash damage unit off of the Robotics Facility. They don't have enough of those already. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22746 Posts
On August 19 2024 15:53 Vindicare605 wrote: Yea because what Protoss needs is yet another slow, splash damage unit off of the Robotics Facility. They don't have enough of those already. It’s so fucking cool though  I’d say easily top 10 RTS unit going. I imagine it would have been in the game from WoL if not for being impossible to balance. They would absolutely decimate with SC2’s clumping, or alternatively you’d have to nerf them so much for that reason that they can’t pack much of a punch. Granted it still mystifies me to this day that the Protoss, with all their technological wizardry designed and put into production what is essentially a robotic slug. ‘Why don’t we make something that moves fast?’ ‘No you idiot, it has to move slowly. Incredibly slowly! Don’t you see?’ | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 19 2024 16:21 WombaT wrote: It’s so fucking cool though I’d say easily top 10 RTS unit going. I imagine it would have been in the game from WoL if not for being impossible to balance. They would absolutely decimate with SC2’s clumping, or alternatively you’d have to nerf them so much for that reason that they can’t pack much of a punch. Granted it still mystifies me to this day that the Protoss, with all their technological wizardry designed and put into production what is essentially a robotic slug. ‘Why don’t we make something that moves fast?’ ‘No you idiot, it has to move slowly. Incredibly slowly! Don’t you see?’ What I've learned about Protoss lore is that their thinking doesn't make sense except if you treat them like a bunch of superstituous hyper religious....zealots. Then all of a sudden their thinking and their tech makes sense. Every time there's some gap in their logic or their strategic thinking it's because their religion deems they fight or behave that way. It would be shameful, heretical, dishonorable etc. etc. otherwise. The same sort of thing is common in Warhammer 40k. Everytime you stop to think about how illogical the Imperium is you have to remember it's a massively corrupt beaurucratic state that is hyper religious and superstitious on top of that. There isn't a lot of 100 percent rational thinking going on in there. | ||
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Vision_
813 Posts
All units in SC2 are different and by the way some are better, the only thing to consider is how deep Blizzard have push some units to a niche. So if people say, nah dragoons are bad, then my answer is : "you are playing to SC2 since a dozen year with a ghost who one shot unit while his supply cost is the same than roachs or hydralisks" If you apply the philosophy of nah, it s just shit then, you have no reason to play with other units than ghosts. You can answer that roachs are shit, that s true because they are cheap but hydras looks now to cannon fooder compared to ghost, which is an issue considering the debate of hydralisks being T1 or T2 unit. Yet another reason to complain, people want to play protoss without a solid anti air, keep going, i won t believe a pro protoss will rise soon. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary454 Posts
And what has been suggested a hundred times past years, move warpgate as a lategame protoss tech so gateway units could be buffed a bit. | ||
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johnnyh123
81 Posts
Would love to see Protoss competing well, but I just don't think changing warpgate will be feasible considering all the history and context. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany972 Posts
On August 19 2024 20:54 Vision_ wrote: It s funny because if one man says "no really, dragoons aren t balanced, they are shit compared to roachs, marauders or immortals" then all people seems to admit that units MUST be consider as equal among them. All units in SC2 are different and by the way some are better, the only thing to consider is how deep Blizzard have push some units to a niche. So if people say, nah dragoons are bad, then my answer is : "you are playing to SC2 since a dozen year with a ghost who one shot unit while his supply cost is the same than roachs or hydralisks" If you apply the philosophy of nah, it s just shit then, you have no reason to play with other units than ghosts. You can answer that roachs are shit, that s true because they are cheap but hydras looks now to cannon fooder compared to ghost, which is an issue considering the debate of hydralisks being T1 or T2 unit. Yet another reason to complain, people want to play protoss without a solid anti air, keep going, i won t believe a pro protoss will rise soon. I really have trouble deciphering what that is supposed to mean, but I just remember your overall perception and goal of these questions: You don't want a balanced game, but a "fun" game. And admittingly, from experience in the Co-Op, Dragoons are fun. They are also completly useless for what Protoss needs (because honestly, what Protoss needs the most are better players at the S-Tier...). As all the other people here have pointed out, Dragoons wouldn't fit any role in the Protoss strategy. They are an awkward step between a Stalker and an Immortal I would say. But you can't make them just Stalkers 2.0, because why would you use a unit that might hit slightly harder, but can't Blink? Terrans use Ghosts in lategame not because they are OP (in a "can't beat this"-sense), but because they counter everything, so they fill the center-piece role you can build your army around. | ||
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kajtarp
Hungary454 Posts
On August 20 2024 06:25 johnnyh123 wrote: Warpgate is one of SC2 Protoss defining mechanisms though. Changing it will require the biggest revamp in SC2 for the race, bigger than jumping from 1 expansion to the next (WoL > HotS > LotV). Would love to see Protoss competing well, but I just don't think changing warpgate will be feasible considering all the history and context. Maybe thats exactly what this game needs. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 20 2024 06:25 johnnyh123 wrote: Warpgate is one of SC2 Protoss defining mechanisms though. Changing it will require the biggest revamp in SC2 for the race, bigger than jumping from 1 expansion to the next (WoL > HotS > LotV). Would love to see Protoss competing well, but I just don't think changing warpgate will be feasible considering all the history and context. It's a bad mechanic. It doesn't matter how "defining" it is. It's a bad mechanic that makes balancing the race impossible to do. We've kept it for as long as we have because of this irrational attachment to how "cool" it is and Protoss has ALWAYS been a problematic race to balance at the pro level as a result. If people would rather keep Warp Gate than get rid of it even though it's a harmful mechanic. Then those people are not serious about seeing Protoss actually be fixed. Unfortunately, I believe a majority of players fall into this category. They'd rather have Protoss be forever imbalanced because of this mechanic than accept that this mechanic needs to be removed, and as long as that is true, Protoss will forever remain a race that can't be balanced at the top level. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8975 Posts
On August 20 2024 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote: It's a bad mechanic. It doesn't matter how "defining" it is. It's a bad mechanic that makes balancing the race impossible to do. We've kept it for as long as we have because of this irrational attachment to how "cool" it is and Protoss has ALWAYS been a problematic race to balance at the pro level as a result. If people would rather keep Warp Gate than get rid of it even though it's a harmful mechanic. Then those people are not serious about seeing Protoss actually be fixed. Unfortunately, I believe a majority of players fall into this category. They'd rather have Protoss be forever imbalanced because of this mechanic than accept that this mechanic needs to be removed, and as long as that is true, Protoss will forever remain a race that can't be balanced at the top level. Well it's kind of the base of the game, it's like removing creep spread, capping hatch at 3 larva, or making the rax, the factory and the starport a single building. Removing warp gate come fairly close to deleting a race from the gate and replacing it with another race, idk why we would do that 14 years deep. Especially over extreamly theoretical speculation that the end result would be a more balanced game at the high level. Which is a moot discussion since we have no idea of what a non-warp gate protoss in SC2 looks like. Now, some people may not like Warp Gate as a mechanic, and that's fine, but removing warp gate to fix balance is like getting stuck on a puzzle and rather than try to solve it, you throw it away and take out another puzzle hopping it will be easier to solve. It's much easier to make protoss stronger at the top level than to redesign and rebalance an hypothetical protoss race without wrap gate. I also really don't think protoss as always been problematic, it's more that people have always like to complain, you could say the same about zerg (and in part about terran - coincidently the most played race for the longuest time). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 20 2024 07:57 Nakajin wrote: Well it's kind of the base of the game, it's like removing creep spread, capping hatch at 3 larva, or making the rax, the factory and the starport a single building. Removing warp gate come fairly close to deleting a race from the gate and replacing it with another race, idk why we would do that 14 years deep. Especially over extreamly theoretical speculation that the end result would be a more balanced game at the high level. Which is a moot discussion since we have no idea of what a non-warp gate protoss in SC2 looks like. Now, some people may not like Warp Gate as a mechanic, and that's fine, but removing warp gate to fix balance is like getting stuck on a puzzle and rather than try to solve it, you throw it away and take out another puzzle hopping it will be easier to solve. It's much easier to make protoss stronger at the top level than to redesign and rebalance an hypothetical protoss race without wrap gate. I also really don't think protoss as always been problematic, it's more that people have always like to complain, you could say the same about zerg (and in part about terran - coincidently the most played race for the longuest time). I wanted to remove Warp Gate back in 2013. The community has actively been attempting to fix the problems it causes since at least that long, community balance mods from at least as far back as that have been attempting to fix the core problem. Blizzard themselves have repeatedly in every Protoss rework, nerfed the power of early game Warp Gate tech as a balance for buffing Protoss in other aspects of the game always in an attempt to make Protoss less of a one dimensional "timing attack" or "Warp Gate All in" race. This isn't theoretical. This is literally the history of the race in Starcraft 2. We've had LAUGHABLY bad attempts to fix their core issues like the addition of the Mothership Core that were so hated by everyone in the community that it was eventually removed, and the race hasn't recovered its winrate since. The race has always been a problem, and Warp Gate has always been why. This isn't a new issue, this isn't hypothetical. There is now 14 years and counting of evidence that continues to prove this point. But as long as people want to keep sticking their fingers in their ears about it, the race will never get better. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany972 Posts
You also remove a big chunk of the identity the race has...meaning you need to give it a new one. If Protoss is just the "boring normal one", while Terran and Zerg get cool stuff...that just sucks. And there is no guarantee that "new Protoss" will in the end be a good fit for the current Protoss-players. Maybe in the process you lose some things that players like herO or MaxPax enjoy and need to play their game...and suddenly, the top-Protosses are forced to either learn an entirely new race or just switch to Terran/Zerg | ||
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Vindicare605
United States15970 Posts
On August 20 2024 08:16 Balnazza wrote: The thing is...you can't just "remove Warpgate". This would need a massive revamp for the Protoss race, including a full year filled with patches to balance it out again. It would be the same like removing creep from the game or medivacs. You also remove a big chunk of the identity the race has...meaning you need to give it a new one. If Protoss is just the "boring normal one", while Terran and Zerg get cool stuff...that just sucks. And there is no guarantee that "new Protoss" will in the end be a good fit for the current Protoss-players. Maybe in the process you lose some things that players like herO or MaxPax enjoy and need to play their game...and suddenly, the top-Protosses are forced to either learn an entirely new race or just switch to Terran/Zerg Does Protoss in Brood War not have a racial identity? This argument has always been irrational and unfounded. The race LOST its racial identity from Brood War when its core units had to be nerfed down to the point where being able to warp them in wasn't totally overpowered. Also keep this in mind. When we talk about removing Warp Gate, we mean removing it from the early game, and changing it into a late game mechanic rather than a core production mechanic that the entire race is balanced around. Late game is when Terran has access to all of their multi pronged drops, Zerg has access to Nydus Worms and has tons of Creep Spread. The mechanics of those races scale UP as the game goes later and later. Warp Gate is the only mobility mechanic that actually scales backwards. It's at its most powerful in the early game when it allows you to reinforce timing attacks without accounting for terrain and distance and gets weaker and weaker as the mobility tools for the other two races come online and the Protoss army gets more and more relegated into being a deathball. It has always worked this way. The race's core units fall off in the late game because they have to be balanced around this early game mechanic. This has always been how the race has worked. You have to rely on immobile support units to support those weaker core units and as the game gets spread out more and more those units become a bigger and bigger liability. If you moved Warp Gate to a late game mechanic, you could rebalance the race's core unit stats and rework their support units so they can serve different uses that are more valuable in the late game the way that Terran and Zerg late game units are. You just need to get it out of the early game. As long as it's there the entire army roster of Protoss has to be built around it. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8975 Posts
On August 20 2024 08:14 Vindicare605 wrote: I wanted to remove Warp Gate back in 2013. The community has actively been attempting to fix the problems it causes since at least that long, community balance mods from at least as far back as that have been attempting to fix the core problem. Blizzard themselves have repeatedly in every Protoss rework, nerfed the power of early game Warp Gate tech as a balance for buffing Protoss in other aspects of the game always in an attempt to make Protoss less of a one dimensional "timing attack" or "Warp Gate All in" race. This isn't theoretical. This is literally the history of the race in Starcraft 2. We've had LAUGHABLY bad attempts to fix their core issues like the addition of the Mothership Core that were so hated by everyone in the community that it was eventually removed, and the race hasn't recovered its winrate since. The race has always been a problem, and Warp Gate has always been why. This isn't a new issue, this isn't hypothetical. There is now 14 years and counting of evidence that continues to prove this point. But as long as people want to keep sticking their fingers in their ears about it, the race will never get better. But that has nothing to do with balance, it's game design, or preference in the type of RTS someone wants to play. Has Warp Gate always been easy to balance? Of course not. But you can't say that removing it would make the game easier to balance. In the same way, passing from 6 to 12 workers was neither balanced nor unbalanced, it was just a game design decision about what general kind of RTS Blizzard wanted to develop going forward. You remove some old problems and create new ones, but it's pretty much impossible to say what impact it would have on the win rate of top professionals. Ergo, those kinds of choices should be taken looking at the win rate of pro players. I don't want to see warp gate gone not because of any balance issue, but because it's a fun and specific mechanic. I like playing with it, I like playing against it and every time I go back to BW I feel like protoss are flat and, frankly, a bit dull at times. (Also I actually kind of like the MSC in a twisted way lol) | ||
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Balnazza
Germany972 Posts
On August 20 2024 08:26 Vindicare605 wrote: Does Protoss in Brood War not have a racial identity? This argument has always been irrational and unfounded. The race LOST its racial identity from Brood War when its core units had to be nerfed down to the point where being able to warp them in wasn't totally overpowered. Also keep this in mind. When we talk about removing Warp Gate, we mean removing it from the early game, and changing it into a late game mechanic rather than a core production mechanic that the entire race is balanced around. Late game is when Terran has access to all of their multi pronged drops, Zerg has access to Nydus Worms and has tons of Creep Spread. The mechanics of those races scale UP as the game goes later and later. Warp Gate is the only mobility mechanic that actually scales backwards. It's at its most powerful in the early game when it allows you to reinforce timing attacks without accounting for terrain and distance and gets weaker and weaker as the mobility tools for the other two races come online and the Protoss army gets more and more relegated into being a deathball. It has always worked this way. The race's core units fall off in the late game because they have to be balanced around this early game mechanic. This has always been how the race has worked. You have to rely on immobile support units to support those weaker core units and as the game gets spread out more and more those units become a bigger and bigger liability. If you moved Warp Gate to a late game mechanic, you could rebalance the race's core unit stats and rework their support units so they can serve different uses that are more valuable in the late game the way that Terran and Zerg late game units do. You just need to get it out of the early game. As long as it's there the entire army roster of Protoss has to be built around it. Okay, putting the Tech into the Lategame is a different story...but still one full of problems. First of all, you remove Protoss Timing Attacks from the board. Or atleast heavily influence them. If you can't warp-in your units at the front, considering how slow they are, you need something else to buff the ability to hit timing-attacks, otherwise Protoss is forced to play a standard game every time, which can't be good. Then you would need to revamp the Warp Prism, because if you can't warp in units with it, for what is it good for? It just becomes the worst Dropship in the game by a landslide. Protoss also can't really harass without it. So you would need to increase its capacity to 6 or even 8. Which then opens the problem...isn't dropping in 8 Zealots with a single dropship dangerously heavy? There is also the question about defense: If Protoss can't just warp-in units to defend their outer bases, do you need to strengthen Shield Batteries? Cannons? Is Protoss forced to always defend all bases with standing army, effectively forcing them to play defensive the entire game? Return of the MSC? Another new ability to protect your bases? Don't get me wrong: It is possible. But it takes time, I'm sure such a major re-design can't be done with one patch. And all the Protoss players need to learn their race kind of "new", since all of their timings and strategies are suddenly off. So while this might lead to better Protoss results in the end, it could also result in a very underpowered race for a few weeks until more patches hit the ground. Or of course they would over-do it and Protoss suddenly becomes extremly OP because of overcorrection. It's an operation on an open heart. If this was to succeed, in my opinion, it would need to come with an entirely new expansion, to really have the time to figure this stuff out. And we all know that won't happen. A small problem, but still an annoying one, would also be the disconnection of the "Multiplayer"-Race from the "Singleplayer"-Race. Protoss suddenly would play very differently compared to its campaign- and CoOp-Counterparts. As I said, a small problem today, but imagine a new player is super-excited about Protoss through the Singleplayer-Content, jumps into multiplayer....aaaand is presented with an entirely different race, build around completly different core-mechanics. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22746 Posts
It’s just a very difficult mechanic to balance around, I think ultimately they’ve done a good job within those constraints. But it is a constraint. Protoss just doesn’t scale all that well the more mechanically skillful you are versus the other two, partly because its core stock units drop off, partly because its macro mechanics don’t comparatively scale up as well either. Somewhat exacerbated by Legacy’s eco changes too. You get into the phases of the game where Zerg and Terran outscale them more frequently. | ||
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