EPTDragoon in SC2 - Page 4
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
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kajtarp
Hungary474 Posts
On August 23 2024 00:11 Mutaller wrote: Maybe a range upgrade for stalkers? +.5 for a total of 6.5? That's what made dragoons so good, the role of dragoon is lost to the stalker, why not give it the same advantage the dragoon had. Comparing dragoon with range to hydra with range, the dragoon would have 1 more range than the hydra. Stalkers and Hydras in sc2 have the same range I could imagine a transform to dragoon command, similar how ravagers are morphed from roaches. We'd have a dragoon with bigger range/damage whatever compared to stalkers, but without blink. Increasing range for blink stalkers signals trouble for me. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On August 23 2024 00:36 kajtarp wrote: I could imagine a transform to dragoon command, similar how ravagers are morphed from roaches. We'd have a dragoon with bigger range/damage whatever compared to stalkers, but without blink. Increasing range for blink stalkers signals trouble for me. The only thing which can be figured is to cancel for a short period (~12 sec) this +2 range bonus after a blink.... Then as i tested marauders/medivacs against stalkers in balance mod, and because stalkers are beefy while marauders lose a bit health on stimpack, i can clearly attest that stalkers with a proper micro blink are balanced (but time consuming in term of apm). So it s not possible to buff them without a counterpart (negative for protoss or positive for opponent idk) The +2 bonus idea comes from SC:evo complete show matchs as many people know... | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
On August 23 2024 00:11 Mutaller wrote: Maybe a range upgrade for stalkers? +.5 for a total of 6.5? That's what made dragoons so good, the role of dragoon is lost to the stalker, why not give it the same advantage the dragoon had. Comparing dragoon with range to hydra with range, the dragoon would have 1 more range than the hydra. Stalkers and Hydras in sc2 have the same range A nerf on hydra range would be better, can change roach and marine range, while we're at it, units have too long range in general in sc2. That's one of the reasons that blob fighting is so strong. Imagine if more units behaved the way that roaches do, the game would be way more strategic, the use of concaves vs. funneling in units. It would also make holding a ramp, or other defensive point more powerful. The longer the attack ranges, the less units need to travel during battles, making them less interesting. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On August 23 2024 15:17 ejozl wrote: ??? No. It s really important to keep at least these range because of the cooldown attack. It allows long cooldown for tanks for example while zergling have short cooldown and are close combat units (scale proportionnally with visible differences) | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
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Vision_
861 Posts
On August 24 2024 02:44 ejozl wrote: So should roaches attack quicker because they have short range? (...) All Rules have exception (if not the rule won t be) I don t understand why it would be more interesting, the actual size of concaves looks ok to me | ||
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CaRn1FeX
Germany203 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16056 Posts
On August 24 2024 07:33 CaRn1FeX wrote: Protoss is fine, just nerf stim (+30% health lost, -20% of attack speed gained) and lurkers (attack range 6, +30% cost, -10% atack speed) and Sc2 is gonna be balanced Nerf Stim and Terran will never win another pro match against Zerg again. I love these kinds of posts because it just shows how little people understand how Starcraft balance works. Any change you make needs to take all 3 match ups into account, not just 1 match up. That's not a fix, that's just an exchange for which race is at the top of the totem pole and which one is at the bottom. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On August 24 2024 07:33 CaRn1FeX wrote: Protoss is fine, just nerf stim (+30% health lost, -20% of attack speed gained) and lurkers (attack range 6, +30% cost, -10% atack speed) and Sc2 is gonna be balanced Yeah, I hope this is a troll post. Stim is really important vs Protoss as well, both for dps and mobility. Remember that Protoss is allowed to have not Colosseus, Storm and Disruptors to melt bio because of stim. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On August 24 2024 02:44 ejozl wrote: So should roaches attack quicker because they have short range? But you are right to talk about roach against a tweaked stalkers ( with longer range) it could be awfull. In "my game mod" I definetly think that stalkers should be the speedy unit, the counterpart of vultures (which are better than hellions because of their awesome micro at the start of the game) and the counterpart of zergling. (more does it dragoons replace adepts) Ofc it s speculation, but actually i have all changes in mind and these changes are ordered by step. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
On August 24 2024 07:33 CaRn1FeX wrote: Protoss is fine, just nerf stim (+30% health lost, -20% of attack speed gained) and lurkers (attack range 6, +30% cost, -10% atack speed) and Sc2 is gonna be balanced I get it, because Marines have 10 more hp in sc2. This would actually be an interesting nerf, Stim is alrdy OP. It's stronger than Blink, Charge, or the Adept upgrades, because it affects both the Marine and the Marauder. It's probably one of the only small changes you can do to the Marine without nerfing it to the ground. Though just putting 1 more armour on many of the bigger units could have the same effect. Already Ts don't need to think about their medivac energy at all, though here you could also nerf the boost so it costs energy. The lurker change would gimp the unit, but at range 9 vs. range 6 in bw we see that the lurker has a completely different role. It goes from a sneaky ambushing unit to a sneaky siege unit that is also quick, it's a few too many roles, making the unit broke as hell. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25107 Posts
On August 24 2024 08:51 Vindicare605 wrote: Nerf Stim and Terran will never win another pro match against Zerg again. I love these kinds of posts because it just shows how little people understand how Starcraft balance works. Any change you make needs to take all 3 match ups into account, not just 1 match up. That's not a fix, that's just an exchange for which race is at the top of the totem pole and which one is at the bottom. I’d hate to be the pro player trying to undo a whole career’s worth of stutter step muscle memory. I can’t really complain about folks proposing radical changes considering I advocate for removing/changing warp gate I suppose haha. But that aside I mean unless someone’s testing their proposals they’re just arbitrary number changes that we have no idea the impact of. It’s a gigantic change in a game where engagements are really front-loaded in which way they sway in terms of damage taken/received. To take just one interaction, and I couldn’t be arsed actually checking but if say, stimmed marines get one-shot by 0-0 tanks that hugely alters That. And I think quite a lot of people dig the simple joys of marine tank mirror | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
On August 29 2024 15:44 WombaT wrote: I’d hate to be the pro player trying to undo a whole career’s worth of stutter step muscle memory. I can’t really complain about folks proposing radical changes considering I advocate for removing/changing warp gate I suppose haha. But that aside I mean unless someone’s testing their proposals they’re just arbitrary number changes that we have no idea the impact of. It’s a gigantic change in a game where engagements are really front-loaded in which way they sway in terms of damage taken/received. To take just one interaction, and I couldn’t be arsed actually checking but if say, stimmed marines get one-shot by 0-0 tanks that hugely alters That. And I think quite a lot of people dig the simple joys of marine tank mirror To resume, if you tweak by slowing down the frequency of warping gate units (inside nexus), then i would suggest two changes : - add arbiter teleportation spell into mothership core (photon overcharge ability will be activated differently); mass recall mana cost now = 100, arbiter teleport = 150, Khaydarin amulet max mana = 250 - add dragoons with 8 range Personnal toughts : stalkers become an harassement and light unit. | ||
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Slydie
1913 Posts
On August 29 2024 14:38 ejozl wrote: I get it, because Marines have 10 more hp in sc2. This would actually be an interesting nerf, Stim is alrdy OP. It's stronger than Blink, Charge, or the Adept upgrades, because it affects both the Marine and the Marauder. It's probably one of the only small changes you can do to the Marine without nerfing it to the ground. Though just putting 1 more armour on many of the bigger units could have the same effect. Already Ts don't need to think about their medivac energy at all, though here you could also nerf the boost so it costs energy. Stimmed bio is probably the one core mechanic the whole game mechanic is based around, and it is a great one! You trade health for DPS and mobility. It allows Z and P to have great bio counters, and different lots of different timing windows open for both sides. If you change it even the slightest, it causes a whole bunch of problems in every matchup. Remember that stimmed bio has been largely unchanged throughout the history of SC2, and Terran has still has terrible records in long stretches with only a few players holding the fort. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
On August 30 2024 02:03 Slydie wrote: Stimmed bio is probably the one core mechanic the whole game mechanic is based around, and it is a great one! You trade health for DPS and mobility. It allows Z and P to have great bio counters, and different lots of different timing windows open for both sides. If you change it even the slightest, it causes a whole bunch of problems in every matchup. Remember that stimmed bio has been largely unchanged throughout the history of SC2, and Terran has still has terrible records in long stretches with only a few players holding the fort. I mean yes, but dkim decided to make it broken with medivac boost, which resulted in stronger muta, photon overcharge, which became the standard. T have gone from having weak ghosts, meaning protoss wins in the ; late mid game to strong ghosts, which goes the other way. There have been plenty of pretty big fundamental changes to economy, defense and mobility creep. For instance, in WoL/hots it was common for T to be up one base on the protoss, whereas now this has completely flipped. It's still the same marauder, so we're going from bio trouncing on gateway units, because of sheer numbers to gateway units outnumbering the terran. So before without colossus and storm there'd be no chance against the terran army, whereas now we often see terran sit back in fear of unit surrounds. Stim went from 170 seconds to 110, I think, a huge change and a big culprit for P sorrow in that matchup in newer times. And let's also remember that bio units are accompanied by units that have received big changes as well. Let's take the previous example, vikings now beat stalkers, have more hp and maneuverability so much so that they beat carriers now which was previously not the case. Colossus are a shadow of its former self, still strong vs. light units, but now they would even lose to landed vikings, which would've been a laughable suggestion in WoL. This new interaction with a more powerful viking vs. a weaker colossus only works because of the economy changes. All this to say that it's really not the same game anymore, so it's not like there is some sacred interaction that needs to be upheld. Still I don't favour changes which go against what sc2 has always been like. The Stalker change was good and needed every P to relearn the game, it was worth it imo, but let's not do too many of these changes without a very good reason for it. The 13 hp stim would make it so +1 tanks kill +2 marines, btw, I don't know if that is a good change, but maybe. | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
damage from 5 to 4 + 1 against armored Consequences : 1) As hydralisks are replacing as no armor tag with 1 supply cost (like SC:BW with the same minerals cost), then colossus damage can be redefined in consequence (or their supply cost decrease due to their weakness against vikings). 2) Old Hellions (replaced by vulture) damage are redefined in consequence (possible increase) 3) The main units relation between marines and banelings are redefined in any case because of the fact that they are nightmare at casual level (some solution in mind, but a big banelings with 1 supply cost seems already a step foward). 4) Add Firebats to balance Marines / Zerglings-Banelings | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1147 Posts
On August 30 2024 20:29 Vision_ wrote: My idea concerning marines change : damage from 5 to 4 + 1 against armored Consequences : 1) As hydralisks are replacing as no armor tag with 1 supply cost (like SC:BW with the same minerals cost), then colossus damage can be redefined in consequence (or their supply cost decrease due to their weakness against vikings). 2) Old Hellions (replaced by vulture) damage are redefined in consequence (possible increase) 3) The main units relation between marines and banelings are redefined in any case because of the fact that they are nightmare at casual level (some solution in mind, but a big banelings with 1 supply cost seems already a step foward). 4) Add Firebats to balance Marines / Zerglings-Banelings So you want to add two more units to the game to rebalance an existing one? Sure, why not. Idea: Lets just add all units from SC1 to SC2 and then, if something isn't balanced, we also just add all units from WC3 and split them between the three races. I was always of the opinion that the one thing Protoss needs to be balanced is a Frost Wyrm... | ||
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Vision_
861 Posts
I would be pretty happy if some units can be improved in their use, without making the protoss race completely broken between pros and casual players. | ||
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