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On August 17 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 20:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:38 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:31 PremoBeats wrote:
I didn't think you meant Gaza and the West Bank as you don't see these areas as official Israel territory.
Well, tough question, as even the Arab neighbors don't want the Palestinians as refugees (I think you know why...).
If Hamas surrenders, all officers should go to prison. Completely disarm both regions.
I'd have the West Bank make a confederation with Jordanian and Gaza with Egypt, giving authority to the major tribes and having these under the authority of the intelligence of Egypt and Jordan who supervise them from the outside. Israel should compensate both governments for the administrative effort and also have a supervising function. We don't need a country that is dependent on the destruction of another in my opinion.
That sounds bad, you're letting those non-Israeli people live on Israeli land, it's fucked up. Ethnic cleansing seems like a much better solution. Didn't this happen through all of history when borders changed? I mean I understand that what always was done this way does not necessarily have to be ok or continued, but what would be your solution? I don't need a solution because I don't stupidly claim that Israel deserves to own lands where other people are living, that's a you problem. Hahaha, easy way out. I never said it deserves it. For all I care you can make it part of Egypt and Jordan with all the ideas I gave before. But no one else wants it and the Arabs have repeatedly denied partition plans (which you - among other things - still seem to ignore).
Yes it is easier to have a correct take when you don't have an imperial agenda, I agree. That's one of the main reasons why I'm not an imperialist.
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I’ll bite.
@Premo what exactly is your point? What do you want readers of your posts to walk away believing? I feel like I have a vague idea, but I’d rather hear from you directly to not put words in your mouth.
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On August 17 2024 21:15 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 21:06 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 21:03 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:38 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:31 PremoBeats wrote:
I didn't think you meant Gaza and the West Bank as you don't see these areas as official Israel territory.
Well, tough question, as even the Arab neighbors don't want the Palestinians as refugees (I think you know why...).
If Hamas surrenders, all officers should go to prison. Completely disarm both regions.
I'd have the West Bank make a confederation with Jordanian and Gaza with Egypt, giving authority to the major tribes and having these under the authority of the intelligence of Egypt and Jordan who supervise them from the outside. Israel should compensate both governments for the administrative effort and also have a supervising function. We don't need a country that is dependent on the destruction of another in my opinion.
That sounds bad, you're letting those non-Israeli people live on Israeli land, it's fucked up. Ethnic cleansing seems like a much better solution. Didn't this happen through all of history when borders changed? I mean I understand that what always was done this way does not necessarily have to be ok or continued, but what would be your solution? I don't need a solution because I don't stupidly claim that Israel deserves to own lands where other people are living, that's a you problem. Hahaha, easy way out. I never said it deserves it. For all I care you can make it part of Egypt and Jordan with all the ideas I gave before. But no one else wants it and the Arabs have repeatedly denied partition plans (which you - among other things - still seem to ignore). "Other countries also do wrong, therefore Israel is actually not as bad as you think". What are you even talking about? I didn't talk about Israel doing nothingbad and I didn't talk about other countries doing anything bad as well. Like what the fuck.. this gets worse and worse. Palestinian Arabs have denied partition plans, holy fuck. We discussed the partition plans plenty of times many months before you arrived in this thread. The Palestinians weren't given a fair deal at any point, so obviously they had to reject the plans. After Israel was established, no more deals were offered to them by Israel because the Zionists had everything they wanted and no longer pretended to care about the Palestinian population. They revealed they cards and the deal was done. One war, one victory. Meanwhile you still haven't acknowledged that the West bank is stolen land.
You think that I don't know about differing opinions on the partition plans?
I mean sure... Palestine can fight for better terms, but I won't bet that Israel gets more generous over time when things like October 7th happen.
Stolen of which country? Jordan? Or how many decades do you want to rewind history?
@Nebuchad
I also gave other options than Imperialism, as it sounds like you want to name call another time.
@Ryzel
Well, what I said multiple times.
Acknowledge that Israel has done more than any other waring faction in history to save civilians (as I said before that does not mean that they are not also complicit in evil things or war crimes along the way).
Acknowledge that one side is a terrorist state with a genocidal agenda towards the other one, while the other one is a democracy that is incredibly well observed by the whole world.
I think these are the main things.
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On August 17 2024 21:55 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 21:15 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 21:06 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 21:03 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:38 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:31 PremoBeats wrote:
I didn't think you meant Gaza and the West Bank as you don't see these areas as official Israel territory.
Well, tough question, as even the Arab neighbors don't want the Palestinians as refugees (I think you know why...).
If Hamas surrenders, all officers should go to prison. Completely disarm both regions.
I'd have the West Bank make a confederation with Jordanian and Gaza with Egypt, giving authority to the major tribes and having these under the authority of the intelligence of Egypt and Jordan who supervise them from the outside. Israel should compensate both governments for the administrative effort and also have a supervising function. We don't need a country that is dependent on the destruction of another in my opinion.
That sounds bad, you're letting those non-Israeli people live on Israeli land, it's fucked up. Ethnic cleansing seems like a much better solution. Didn't this happen through all of history when borders changed? I mean I understand that what always was done this way does not necessarily have to be ok or continued, but what would be your solution? I don't need a solution because I don't stupidly claim that Israel deserves to own lands where other people are living, that's a you problem. Hahaha, easy way out. I never said it deserves it. For all I care you can make it part of Egypt and Jordan with all the ideas I gave before. But no one else wants it and the Arabs have repeatedly denied partition plans (which you - among other things - still seem to ignore). "Other countries also do wrong, therefore Israel is actually not as bad as you think". What are you even talking about? I didn't talk about Israel doing nothingbad and I didn't talk about other countries doing anything bad as well. Like what the fuck.. this gets worse and worse. Palestinian Arabs have denied partition plans, holy fuck. We discussed the partition plans plenty of times many months before you arrived in this thread. The Palestinians weren't given a fair deal at any point, so obviously they had to reject the plans. After Israel was established, no more deals were offered to them by Israel because the Zionists had everything they wanted and no longer pretended to care about the Palestinian population. They revealed they cards and the deal was done. One war, one victory. Meanwhile you still haven't acknowledged that the West bank is stolen land. @Nebuchad I also gave other options than Imperialism, as it sounds like you want to name call another time.
What I want is for people to care about reality when making arguments, but that's not going to happen so I'll settle on mocking you.
Edit: also I want protoss to win a tournament at some point but that's not going to happen either :/
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most countries don't bomb refugee camps. The notion that Israel has done more then anyone else to save civilians is categorically false.
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On August 17 2024 21:55 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 21:15 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 21:06 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 21:03 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:38 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:31 PremoBeats wrote:
I didn't think you meant Gaza and the West Bank as you don't see these areas as official Israel territory.
Well, tough question, as even the Arab neighbors don't want the Palestinians as refugees (I think you know why...).
If Hamas surrenders, all officers should go to prison. Completely disarm both regions.
I'd have the West Bank make a confederation with Jordanian and Gaza with Egypt, giving authority to the major tribes and having these under the authority of the intelligence of Egypt and Jordan who supervise them from the outside. Israel should compensate both governments for the administrative effort and also have a supervising function. We don't need a country that is dependent on the destruction of another in my opinion.
That sounds bad, you're letting those non-Israeli people live on Israeli land, it's fucked up. Ethnic cleansing seems like a much better solution. Didn't this happen through all of history when borders changed? I mean I understand that what always was done this way does not necessarily have to be ok or continued, but what would be your solution? I don't need a solution because I don't stupidly claim that Israel deserves to own lands where other people are living, that's a you problem. Hahaha, easy way out. I never said it deserves it. For all I care you can make it part of Egypt and Jordan with all the ideas I gave before. But no one else wants it and the Arabs have repeatedly denied partition plans (which you - among other things - still seem to ignore). "Other countries also do wrong, therefore Israel is actually not as bad as you think". What are you even talking about? I didn't talk about Israel doing nothingbad and I didn't talk about other countries doing anything bad as well. Like what the fuck.. this gets worse and worse. Palestinian Arabs have denied partition plans, holy fuck. We discussed the partition plans plenty of times many months before you arrived in this thread. The Palestinians weren't given a fair deal at any point, so obviously they had to reject the plans. After Israel was established, no more deals were offered to them by Israel because the Zionists had everything they wanted and no longer pretended to care about the Palestinian population. They revealed they cards and the deal was done. One war, one victory. Meanwhile you still haven't acknowledged that the West bank is stolen land. You think that I don't know about differing opinions on the partition plans? I mean sure... Palestine can fight for better terms, but I won't bet that Israel gets more generous over time when things like October 7th happen. Stolen of which country? Jordan? Or how many decades do you want to rewind history?
And I bet Palestinians won't get more generous over time either when Israel keeps killing tens of thousands of Palestinians, starving them, imprisoning them in Palestinian land, and stealing more of their land.
You're not looking at it from an unbiased angle. I can fully acknowledge - and I have many times - that Hamas is a huge thorn in the peace process. But to ignore how Israel hugely escalates and worsens the conflict would be a huge double standard. I can point out two evils when I see them, I don't have to exclusively condemn only one side all the time. Israel's administration has a huge hand in the continuation of this conflict, and it's not just Hamas alone that's responsible for this current war. It takes two to tango, and Israel is holding all the cards right now. The injustice against Palestinians is mounting, and I point this out because right now it's Israel that's committing all the injustices. Hamas is in a corner, not Netanyahu. He loves this situation. More death and destruction serves his agenda.
The West bank was stolen by Israel from Palestinians. They've been doing this for several generations and created Apartheid in the process. It's a form of ethnic cleansing, as Zionists want the land for themselves. They're literally following the Nazi playbook.
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On August 17 2024 20:08 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 19:44 PremoBeats wrote:
I am using the legal term for an occupation. You can only occupy what is not yours. I said it already. I also wrote that the occupation (see, I am using your word?) is justified. Obvious to you and obvious to your sources. But I already addressed this with the geocentric analogy.
Looking back before I started posting here, you also seem to have equalized Palestine to Apartheid. So it seemed to me that you are not all too clear with definitions.
What should Israel do with all these people living on its land? Which people do you mean? The Jewish Israelis? The Arab Muslims? The Arab Christians? The Palestinian Muslims? The Druze? Israel is incredibly diverse so it is hard to say which people you mean. Or do you mean all of them?
Aside from the fact your minister of national security, ben gvir has made on numerous occasion racist remarks on arabs that "death to arab" is literally the slogan of the israeli far right is already telling. It's pretty hard to imagine things going well to arab israeli when they are by far the poorest population of the country the one with the hightest criminality and the one whose openely targeted by scholars (benny morris : arabs are intrasecally barbaric...) and so on.
And I forgot the clergy ofc, when a rabbi of safaad forbides jew to sell habitation to non jew and of course those theological debates about the "animal soul of arabs"
And the law as well actually, israel is jewish state, that's in their consitution which means that every jews can become one. However, a arab israeli which would married to a palestinian one would be prevented of a family reunification as it is strictly forbidden by israeli law.
West banks palestinian have heavy movement restrictions which can be fatal when on needs to be rushed to the hospital and so on.
Moreover they faced according to numerous ngo various operation during which humiliation occurs. Sylvain Cypelle, a pretty famous jewish journalist in France describes pretty well the process of military operation during which all the family is put on a room while the house is ransacked with pee on the wall ext. The goal is of course to initiate the recruit to treat the palestinians as animal.
Not only that, but children can be murdered by israeli soldiers without any consequences such as Mohammed Tamini in june 2023.
So yeah, there is an apartheid.
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@stilt
My minister. Lol, this is so ridiculous.
So how are the Palestinian Arabs in Israel actually doing? Versus the Israelis in Palest... oh wait, there are none, cause they all got slaughtered.
Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible?
And I mean.. I already sad that horrible things and war crimes happened. You people don't have to list each and every one of them. I also explained how Israel is much more observed than the rest of the world as it is fighting a literal terrorist regime, where no one gives a shit at how brutal and sadistic they act all the time (Moynihan's Law).
Apartheid involved racial segregation along 8 groups depending on their skin color. Whites had more rights than blacks. There is no segregation in Israel. Every Israeli citizen has the same rights and Arab Muslims penetrate every layer of Israeli society. I gave an example before, where an Arab judge from the Israeli Supreme Court put a former Israeli PM in prison. If you truly think that this was somehow remotely possible in South Africa, you simply do not understand the severity of Apartheid.
Arab Muslims are in the police, the armer, the legal system, they can vote. They are everywhere. They are literally the only Arabs in the Middle East living in a functional democracy, lol.
@Gorsameth
Most refugee camps don't hide terrorists which shot rockets. Again. People put blame on Israel when the blame shut be put on Hamas.
@Nebuchad
Did I not accept your occupation argument for the sake of discussing this, although I disagree with it legally?
Did I not give reasonings why the occupation is necessary?
@Magic Powers
Shall I also only talk in loaded language? I mean... do you all really think that this is productive?
Because how is Israel imprisoning them? Can't these Palestinians leave the area through other countries?
Starving them? You mean the Israeli humanitarian aid that is intercepted by Hamas?
The moment I came here I was accused of bias or prejudice simply for stating my opinion without asking for my reasons.
None of you has so far acknowledged the hundred of thousands to millions of text messages, calls, pamphlets, TV and radio transmissions as well as shielding civilians from Hamas fire.
The humanitarian aid Israel is providing. The water, electricity, the treatment of patients. I acknowledged each and every evil doing of Israel that was put up and could be backed up by facts. And I am the one with bias? Ok.
Well, I am done for today.. see you guys on Sunday.
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classic abuser answer "she made me do it, if only she had made me that sandwich, I wouldn't have had to hit her".
The only organisation responsible for Israel dropping a bomb on a refugee camp is Israel.
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I can't believe we're back at the "Palestinians can just up and leave" from a few weeks or months ago...
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On August 17 2024 23:50 Gorsameth wrote:
classic abuser answer "she made me do it, if only she had made me that sandwich, I wouldn't have had to hit her".
The only organisation responsible for Israel dropping a bomb on a refugee camp is Israel.
I think I don't have to respond to this utterly nonsensical analogy. But if you need me to do it, I am happy to.
So Hamas should simply be able to attack Israel from refugee camps?
On August 17 2024 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:
I can't believe we're back at the "Palestinians can just up and leave" from a few weeks or months ago...
Again putting words in my mouth. I never said that the Palestinians can/should just up and leave. My comment was a reply to you saying that they are imprisoned, which is utter nonsense.
This time for real. Gotta watch Reynor.. see you guys
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On August 17 2024 23:36 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
Did I not accept your occupation argument for the sake of discussing this, although I disagree with it legally?
Did I not give reasonings why the occupation is necessary?
No, you didn't.
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On August 17 2024 23:58 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:
I can't believe we're back at the "Palestinians can just up and leave" from a few weeks or months ago... Again putting words in my mouth. I never said that the Palestinians can/should just up and leave. My comment was a reply to you saying that they are imprisoned, which is utter nonsense.
On August 17 2024 23:36 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Because how is Israel imprisoning them? Can't these Palestinians leave the area through other countries?
Just give up the pretense Premo. No one here is buying your act.
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On August 17 2024 23:36 PremoBeats wrote:
@stilt
My minister. Lol, this is so ridiculous.
So how are the Palestinian Arabs in Israel actually doing? Versus the Israelis in Palest... oh wait, there are none, cause they all got slaughtered.
Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible?
And I mean.. I already sad that horrible things and war crimes happened. You people don't have to list each and every one of them. I also explained how Israel is much more observed than the rest of the world as it is fighting a literal terrorist regime, where no one gives a shit at how brutal and sadistic they act all the time (Moynihan's Law).
Apartheid involved racial segregation along 8 groups depending on their skin color. Whites had more rights than blacks. There is no segregation in Israel. Every Israeli citizen has the same rights and Arab Muslims penetrate every layer of Israeli society. I gave an example before, where an Arab judge from the Israeli Supreme Court put a former Israeli PM in prison. If you truly think that this was somehow remotely possible in South Africa, you simply do not understand the severity of Apartheid.
Arab Muslims are in the police, the armer, the legal system, they can vote. They are everywhere. They are literally the only Arabs in the Middle East living in a functional democracy, lol.
@Gorsameth
Most refugee camps don't hide terrorists which shot rockets. Again. People put blame on Israel when the blame shut be put on Hamas.
@Nebuchad
Did I not accept your occupation argument for the sake of discussing this, although I disagree with it legally?
Did I not give reasonings why the occupation is necessary?
@Magic Powers
Shall I also only talk in loaded language? I mean... do you all really think that this is productive?
Because how is Israel imprisoning them? Can't these Palestinians leave the area through other countries?
Starving them? You mean the Israeli humanitarian aid that is intercepted by Hamas?
The moment I came here I was accused of bias or prejudice simply for stating my opinion without asking for my reasons.
None of you has so far acknowledged the hundred of thousands to millions of text messages, calls, pamphlets, TV and radio transmissions as well as shielding civilians from Hamas fire.
The humanitarian aid Israel is providing. The water, electricity, the treatment of patients. I acknowledged each and every evil doing of Israel that was put up and could be backed up by facts. And I am the one with bias? Ok.
Well, I am done for today.. see you guys on Sunday.
You didn't address the killing children without any repercussions.
Discrimination on law which assure the superiority based on a religion is an apartheid.
I mean, I am not gonna repeat myself, arab israeli are subject to an extreme racism coming from every side of the society, scholars, humoristsw politians, there are poorest sidenof it and of course this population is under heavy surveillance. Only die-hard israeli supporters can state that being super discriminated is so much better than living your life elsewhere.
Restriction of movement based on a ethnie is apartheird as well, restriction of water as well, which happens in the west bank.
Arabs were slaughtered in 1948, not the other ways around, some palestinian factions fought, lost and got slaughtered.
Village's population like deir yassin's one has been annihlated. It is the most famous exemple but not the biggest actually.
Survivors of massacres like the ones at lod were (already !) confined to a ghetto.
In the end, 700000 fled, around 30k were killed, from a population fo 1.3m, that's a ethnic cleansing.
I would like to point out as well that palestinians never got a democratic representation, never the un at the time and even less the british mandate give them the choice of their representants and of their wishes at the time. They were just supposed to be replaced by a stronger race as churchill stated.
Anyway, back to today, Israel as an invader is supposed to provide this aid but it is largely finanzed by UN and ngo which according to israeli is "hamas". Hence they are putting gaza under blocus provoking starvation and sickness, polio has just been identified on a 10 months old.
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On August 17 2024 21:55 PremoBeats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 21:15 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 21:06 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 21:03 Magic Powers wrote:On August 17 2024 20:59 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:49 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:43 PremoBeats wrote:On August 17 2024 20:38 Nebuchad wrote:On August 17 2024 20:31 PremoBeats wrote:
I didn't think you meant Gaza and the West Bank as you don't see these areas as official Israel territory.
Well, tough question, as even the Arab neighbors don't want the Palestinians as refugees (I think you know why...).
If Hamas surrenders, all officers should go to prison. Completely disarm both regions.
I'd have the West Bank make a confederation with Jordanian and Gaza with Egypt, giving authority to the major tribes and having these under the authority of the intelligence of Egypt and Jordan who supervise them from the outside. Israel should compensate both governments for the administrative effort and also have a supervising function. We don't need a country that is dependent on the destruction of another in my opinion.
That sounds bad, you're letting those non-Israeli people live on Israeli land, it's fucked up. Ethnic cleansing seems like a much better solution. Didn't this happen through all of history when borders changed? I mean I understand that what always was done this way does not necessarily have to be ok or continued, but what would be your solution? I don't need a solution because I don't stupidly claim that Israel deserves to own lands where other people are living, that's a you problem. Hahaha, easy way out. I never said it deserves it. For all I care you can make it part of Egypt and Jordan with all the ideas I gave before. But no one else wants it and the Arabs have repeatedly denied partition plans (which you - among other things - still seem to ignore). "Other countries also do wrong, therefore Israel is actually not as bad as you think". What are you even talking about? I didn't talk about Israel doing nothingbad and I didn't talk about other countries doing anything bad as well. Like what the fuck.. this gets worse and worse. Palestinian Arabs have denied partition plans, holy fuck. We discussed the partition plans plenty of times many months before you arrived in this thread. The Palestinians weren't given a fair deal at any point, so obviously they had to reject the plans. After Israel was established, no more deals were offered to them by Israel because the Zionists had everything they wanted and no longer pretended to care about the Palestinian population. They revealed they cards and the deal was done. One war, one victory. Meanwhile you still haven't acknowledged that the West bank is stolen land. @Ryzel Well, what I said multiple times. Acknowledge that Israel has done more than any other waring faction in history to save civilians (as I said before that does not mean that they are not also complicit in evil things or war crimes along the way). Acknowledge that one side is a terrorist state with a genocidal agenda towards the other one, while the other one is a democracy that is incredibly well observed by the whole world. I think these are the main things.
Thanks for responding! And I also admire your willingness to withstand all the vitriol without dishing it out yourself.
Re: your two points, your first one is very broad. If you’re talking about the specific actions of pamphlets and phone calls to avoid bombs (I’m assuming this because you referenced them multiple times), I don’t think anyone here actually disputed that happened, so you’re already getting implicit agreement here from the thread. Whether or not any other warring actor has warned their opponent about the location of incoming bombs, I can’t say. So I’ll for now concede that no other country has done that.
The issue I think others have though is that it seems you’re implying since Israel did those actions, they are conducting themselves in a way that is sufficiently morally just. That’s not necessarily the case though; for example if they warn 50 Palestinians and let 5000 die from causes they can prevent, they’re not conducting themselves in a morally just way. For your implied point to remain valid, you’d either have to argue all those other deaths could not have been prevented, or argue that those deaths are acceptable; both of which would be difficult to convince others here of for the reasons already given.
Your second point is again not really disputed. I haven’t seen anyone here argue Hamas is not a terrorist organization, nor that they don’t lead Gaza, and I haven’t seen anyone here dispute that Israel is both a democracy and well-observed globally. Similar to above, the issue most here seem to have is that you seem to be implying that because of these facts, Israel is sufficiently morally just in its actions in this war. Which, again, is not necessarily the case. Both of the above can be true while Israel engages in ethnic cleansing and tolerates genocidal rhetoric from leadership, for example. Hamas’s moral position is irrelevant here; if you think ethnic cleansing and genocidal rhetoric are wrong full stop, then if Israel does those things they are doing wrong. Again, similar to above, for your implied argument to be valid, you’d have to argue that either Israel isn’t doing those things, or that it is acceptable for Israel to do them (given the circumstances).
When people here are telling you you’re lying and to drop the act, they’re telling you to own up to the arguments you are implying. If those implied arguments don’t actually reflect your views and you’d like to distance yourself from them, that would probably save you a lot of trouble.
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On August 18 2024 00:56 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2024 23:36 PremoBeats wrote:
@stilt
My minister. Lol, this is so ridiculous.
So how are the Palestinian Arabs in Israel actually doing? Versus the Israelis in Palest... oh wait, there are none, cause they all got slaughtered.
Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible?
And I mean.. I already sad that horrible things and war crimes happened. You people don't have to list each and every one of them. I also explained how Israel is much more observed than the rest of the world as it is fighting a literal terrorist regime, where no one gives a shit at how brutal and sadistic they act all the time (Moynihan's Law).
Apartheid involved racial segregation along 8 groups depending on their skin color. Whites had more rights than blacks. There is no segregation in Israel. Every Israeli citizen has the same rights and Arab Muslims penetrate every layer of Israeli society. I gave an example before, where an Arab judge from the Israeli Supreme Court put a former Israeli PM in prison. If you truly think that this was somehow remotely possible in South Africa, you simply do not understand the severity of Apartheid.
Arab Muslims are in the police, the armer, the legal system, they can vote. They are everywhere. They are literally the only Arabs in the Middle East living in a functional democracy, lol.
@Gorsameth
Most refugee camps don't hide terrorists which shot rockets. Again. People put blame on Israel when the blame shut be put on Hamas.
@Nebuchad
Did I not accept your occupation argument for the sake of discussing this, although I disagree with it legally?
Did I not give reasonings why the occupation is necessary?
@Magic Powers
Shall I also only talk in loaded language? I mean... do you all really think that this is productive?
Because how is Israel imprisoning them? Can't these Palestinians leave the area through other countries?
Starving them? You mean the Israeli humanitarian aid that is intercepted by Hamas?
The moment I came here I was accused of bias or prejudice simply for stating my opinion without asking for my reasons.
None of you has so far acknowledged the hundred of thousands to millions of text messages, calls, pamphlets, TV and radio transmissions as well as shielding civilians from Hamas fire.
The humanitarian aid Israel is providing. The water, electricity, the treatment of patients. I acknowledged each and every evil doing of Israel that was put up and could be backed up by facts. And I am the one with bias? Ok.
Well, I am done for today.. see you guys on Sunday.
You didn't address the killing children without any repercussions. Discrimination on law which assure the superiority based on a religion is an apartheid. I mean, I am not gonna repeat myself, arab israeli are subject to an extreme racism coming from every side of the society, scholars, humoristsw politians, there are poorest sidenof it and of course this population is under heavy surveillance. Only die-hard israeli supporters can state that being super discriminated is so much better than living your life elsewhere. Restriction of movement based on a ethnie is apartheird as well, restriction of water as well, which happens in the west bank. Arabs were slaughtered in 1948, not the other ways around, some palestinian factions fought, lost and got slaughtered. Village's population like deir yassin's one has been annihlated. It is the most famous exemple but not the biggest actually. Survivors of massacres like the ones at lod were (already !) confined to a ghetto. In the end, 700000 fled, around 30k were killed, from a population fo 1.3m, that's a ethnic cleansing. I would like to point out as well that palestinians never got a democratic representation, never the un at the time and even less the british mandate give them the choice of their representants and of their wishes at the time. They were just supposed to be replaced by a stronger race as churchill stated. Anyway, back to today, Israel as an invader is supposed to provide this aid but it is largely finanzed by UN and ngo which according to israeli is "hamas". Hence they are putting gaza under blocus provoking starvation and sickness, polio has just been identified on a 10 months old.
@Nebuchad
So do you deny the constant attacks out of the occupied regions? Which was the reason they were occupied in the first place?
And that if Israel leaves now they have to re-take the occupied zones again which will lead to even more blood shed?
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic?
You said that the Palestinians are imprisoned. I simply pointed out that they are not, as they are not surrounded by Israel borders. But if I misunderstood you: What did you mean with this: "imprisoning them in Palestinian land"
Because I have an issue with loaded, untrue language like that, as it makes it easier to vilify factions.
And as you never truly answered these, I will repost them:
If ending the war is preventing casualties and a hypothetical goal of Israel is the ethnic cleansing of Gaza, which would result in the least amount of possible deaths in the future: Shouldn't they go for it, similar to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the USA which led to fewer casualties on both sides than an invasion?
I state it now: I don't think it is helpful in regards to ending this conflict to look at borders from 80 years ago. But as you opened up this book: Who did the land belong to before Israel declared independence?
You wrote to another person: "If you ask the question how Israel should be expected to tolerate being attacked, you should ask the same question back to Palestinians. How should Palestinians be expected to tolerate this war and all the other previous attacks from Israel?"
I simply have to ask you: Isn't all the aggression of invasion, rockets and attacks of civilians since decades coming out of Palestine first? When did Israel launch any attack or aggression at Palestine after not being provoked beforehand? Israel is always responding. Do you really think they would have attacked if October 7th never happened? Do you think any of the former aggressions by Israel were unfounded?
Palestine is the attacking side since decades... seriously don't you see this as an obvious fact? I am not saying that Israel is holy and nothing they do is wrong as there is plenty of evidence of their wrongdoings (as they are rightfully held more accountable as a parliamentary democracy than a terrorist regime as well as Moynihan's Law) but if there was partition plan on the table tomorrow it is obvious who would deny it and launch rockets simply because of hatred and anti-semitism. The Israelis don't give a fuck about this war. They are at peace with most countries that attacked them after independence.
@stilt
How didn't I? I said multiple times that I think Israel should be held accountable for all war crimes.
What exactly do you mean with religious Apartheid? Are there laws in Israel directly targeting Muslims? Aren't they allowed to vote? What is your exact accusation?
If you refer to the occupied zones: A military occupation is no Apartheid, especially when these zones have self governance/autonomy.
So no Jews/Israelis were slaughtered in 1948? The roughly 6k killed Jews/Israelis in 1948 is a conspiracy? I mean, I can fully admit that the Arab casualty rate was 10k-15k. Can you admit the death of the Jews/Israelis?
Yes, around 700k Palestinian Arabs were displaced. But so were 500k-800k Jews. I can fully admit the Arab displacement. Can you admit the Israeli one?
Just to stick to the truth: Israel is performing a retaliatory invasion.
What about this: Yup, being rushed to hospital CAN be a problem in some situations. Do you also accept that Israel takes in patients from Gaza and the West Bank when treatment there is not possible?
Again, to everyone writing here: I can only say it again, that I think every Israeli civilian, officer, soldier, politician and the state itself needs to take responsibility for every crime/war crime and evil that has been done. I don't know how often I have to repeat it.
But since I have been personally attacked from the minute I made counter-opinions and there don't seem to be any contradicting voices to the overall narrative most here have, it seems to me that this forum is an anti-Israeli echo chamber.
People here refrain from making the smallest, most obvious concessions, so much that comical and utterly ridiculous back and forths have been produced.
EDIT: @Ryzel... sorry, saw your post only after posting. Have to get back to you next week. Have a lot of work to do starting tomorrow and need to sleep.
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On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Nebuchad
So do you deny the constant attacks out of the occupied regions? Which was the reason they were occupied in the first place?
And that if Israel leaves now they have to re-take the occupied zones again which will lead to even more blood shed?
Yes I deny all of that 
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Northern Ireland22758 Posts
What would the state of Israel do if, somehow the Jewish population ended up as a political minority?
Hey it’s an extreme hypothetical, but I think one that does make one consider the state as a genuinely pluralistic and mixed democracy.
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On August 19 2024 03:49 PremoBeats wrote:
@Magic Powers
Which pretense, Magic?
I literally quoted it. You said exactly what I said you said, and you denied it as if I couldn't quote your exact words. Now that I quoted them, you ask again what I'm talking about even though it's right in the quote. You don't know your own arguments because you forget them roughly ten minutes later, you gaslight people by pretending you didn't say words that are quoteable, and you think you're in the right while doing so.
Your whole shtick is a complete waste of time. I haven't seen anyone else on this forum who trolls people so blatantly with absolutely zero signs of shame.
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EPT
