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United States1755 Posts
On June 23 2024 12:27 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 11:59 NoobSkills wrote:On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional. This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS. And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent. And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead. And yet, players who weren't in teamhouses and Proleague could still compete with most of the top-dogs - namely the koreans who came over into the west. BlizzCon is full of wins against the best Kespa-koreans, even though they eventually always took the trophy home. I can give you another take on your view: A lot of koreans "coasted by" (which I will agree with my foreposter, that is just disrespectful) because Proleague offered them money, even though they didn't impact GSL much, nor did they have the "dedication" to go west and prove themselves. When Proleague was gone, you either were good enough to get money or you had to leave. Secure money can people make very complacent. I remember back in the day when the discussion was that the german EPS awards too much money, so german players never seemed to care enough to prove themselves internationally. Same can be applied to Proleague - not that I would personally, but that seems to be your take?
The players that stuck around post 2016 were the ones who were good enough to get a spot on a (often foreign) team. You simply cannot survive in korea without a team salary.
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On June 23 2024 12:27 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 11:59 NoobSkills wrote:On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional. This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS. And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent. And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead. And yet, players who weren't in teamhouses and Proleague could still compete with most of the top-dogs - namely the koreans who came over into the west. BlizzCon is full of wins against the best Kespa-koreans, even though they eventually always took the trophy home. I can give you another take on your view: A lot of koreans "coasted by" (which I will agree with my foreposter, that is just disrespectful) because Proleague offered them money, even though they didn't impact GSL much, nor did they have the "dedication" to go west and prove themselves. When Proleague was gone, you either were good enough to get money or you had to leave. Secure money can people make very complacent. I remember back in the day when the discussion was that the german EPS awards too much money, so german players never seemed to care enough to prove themselves internationally. Same can be applied to Proleague - not that I would personally, but that seems to be your take?
In your first paragraph you talk about wins against KESPA players even from players who transferred early who had KESPA experience. But I think my point is there wasn't a KESPA era level design for SC2 nor team houses that reflected that standard. While some team houses existed, the scene was pretty chaotic and messy with everything (mostly blizzard's fault) so nothing was established in that way. Now this isn't to say that some of the non-KESPA, foreign, or KESPA players couldn't have all benfitted from that system being in place, but it simply didn't exist for SC2. The divide that happened and lack of practice infrastructure and a lot of the top level players who didn't participate in SC2 or took it less seriously, or switched back or stayed playing BW greatly reduced the talent on the scene.
As for dedication to go west who didn't? Specifically KESPA players? I think west was if you can and want to chase money and think you can do it, but it is a crazy grind. But again due to the chaos of GSL/WCS and weekend events there wasn't just one scene. Not anyone's fault be it foreign, Korean, or KESPA player. And btw my point about coasting players isn't about any one specific group it applies universally, dollar per hour vs time spent on SC2 it is probably better money to simply be one of the coasting players than to win.
To your last paragraph, I'm unsure of what german EPS is but I think I get your point. I'm not sure if it is 100% money, but money is a big part for sure. But also that nothing like KESPA level team houses exist in SC2 and while I don't think those houses were done right, if something more regular like that existed with bigger implications the skill level would be much higher even now. And this isn't to speak on propping up what a lot of the KESPA houses were, but that type of thing, with a better implementation and less BS would have changed everything we know about SC2.
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On June 23 2024 13:13 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 12:27 Balnazza wrote:On June 23 2024 11:59 NoobSkills wrote:On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional. This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS. And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent. And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead. And yet, players who weren't in teamhouses and Proleague could still compete with most of the top-dogs - namely the koreans who came over into the west. BlizzCon is full of wins against the best Kespa-koreans, even though they eventually always took the trophy home. I can give you another take on your view: A lot of koreans "coasted by" (which I will agree with my foreposter, that is just disrespectful) because Proleague offered them money, even though they didn't impact GSL much, nor did they have the "dedication" to go west and prove themselves. When Proleague was gone, you either were good enough to get money or you had to leave. Secure money can people make very complacent. I remember back in the day when the discussion was that the german EPS awards too much money, so german players never seemed to care enough to prove themselves internationally. Same can be applied to Proleague - not that I would personally, but that seems to be your take? But I think my point is there wasn't a KESPA era level design for SC2 nor team houses that reflected that standard. While some team houses existed, the scene was pretty chaotic and messy with everything (mostly blizzard's fault) so nothing was established in that way.
Do you have any proof or evidence of the things you write? Or are you just making up things with a lot of confidence?
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On June 21 2024 11:09 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 10:36 tskarzyn wrote:On June 21 2024 09:15 Perceivere wrote:On June 21 2024 04:23 PremoBeats wrote:On June 20 2024 03:06 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
(...) Maru's sheer longevity/track record length argument are evidently numbered. (...)
Adding to this: not one Maru-is-GOAT-guy so far has answered my question how long Maru in their eyes would keep the GOAT throne if things went on like they are now. Serral having win rates that are utterly surreal and showing a level of dominance no one ever could hope to attain. Accumulating more and more victories in the world's best events while beating everyone - including top Koreans - to the ground and standing at individual win records that are best to be described as absurd. Having more wins in PT with top Korean participation than anyone before him, while Maru still tries time and again to win Worlds and falling short, when the best of the world step in. This is going on in the seventh year now. Maru was never able to surpass his peers in the way Serral did or be considered the undenied best in any given year. But somehow, these 2 premier tournament wins and a remarkable career at never being truly #1 seem to surpass Serral. But then the question is: How long is Maru's duration of playing at the top level sufficient to counter balance the inhuman dominance of Serral, who is destroying everyone for over half the game's life span? Does Serral need another 7 years to prove the point? When is enough enough? Or are these people seriously trying to argue that playing in the Kespa era and winning 2 PT in that time frame, while never being #1 back then, is enough to lift Maru above Serral in a GOAT debate? No one so far, who claims Maru=GOAT has answered the question how long Serral's dominance needs to tower over everyone else, before Maru's duration handicap has reached its limit. A problem is that many people only count wins. They're not judging the quality of the wins/dominance, and the difficulty justly. I've tried to be as fair as possible. We can acknowledge that zerg was indeed imbalanced in 2018. I'm not sure why the Maru camp won't acknowledge that Maru has also enjoyed some advantages while Serral had some hurdles. Maru's best MU by far is TvT. Well, Korea is over-represented by terran. Terran also has no volatile MU, whereas zerg has to deal with the guesswork and difficult-to-scout/read gimmicks of fellow zergs. Somehow, someway, Serral recently had managed to somewhat close that gap between his ZvZ and other MUs, while other zergs remained in the 50%-ish winrate whirlpool of top-tier ZvZ. Serral has the entire world gunning/preparing builds for him, whereas Maru pretty much only has Korea focusing on him. Maru benefits from the fact that he plays in a region that Korea-biased writers/fans/casters overweigh. These individuals also happen to completely discount EU-regional premieres....as in ten wins count for exactly zero. This a slight-of-hand mental magic that they've still yet failed to rationalize... probably because they can't rationalize it. Saying "it's easier," or "there just aren't enough good players" doesn't justify discounting all of the wins. An EU zerg beating Clem/Reynor is/was harder than a Korean terran beating anybody-not-Maru in Korea. Doing it 10 times over somehow means nothing in the judgments (or lack thereof) of some individuals. Finally, you can't just count wins without counting the poor performances. Maru has bombed out of premier tournaments more often Serral. I can't remember which one it was, but he didn't even manage to break out of a large-size round robin groupstage at one time, and round robin is supposed to be among the most consistent formats for reducing randomness factor. When you count the fails, or relatively weak performance, as well as the achievements, and level of dominance of those achievements, you get a much more completely/unbiased view of these players. Why might TvT be Maru's best matchup... It's almost as if one race is easier to beat than the others... But that's impossible, because we know that all three races are equal in strength and difficulty despite being different in every other way. I suppose we'll never know! Are you suggesting that terran is weaker than protoss?? Especially given the vastly larger number of top terrans in Korea than top protoss? I would love to see the olympic-level gymnastic arguments for that. I would also like to see the arguments explaining away his TvZ winrates improving as zerg keeps getting nerfed. TvT has been his best MU, despite there being way more top terrans than top protoss in Korea.
My man, it seems that you don't follow SC all that closely. Win rates vary by matchup. In premier finals or quarter finals, who are protoss most often eliminated by?
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Northern Ireland22928 Posts
On June 23 2024 10:33 radracer wrote:
Slightly? It was such an undeniable CHASM of disparity between the KR scene and anywhere else in the world when SC2 was fully invested in by KR. The difference was they were legitimately professional, like an athlete would be. Training was intense.
The game is by all means a niche genre/esport now, where it's possible to be good/the best without "professional" level training.
Overall the game is not better than it used to be as an esport, but it's still SC and I'll love it forever.
Serral is better at the game now than anyone was back in those days.
But equally it’s very probable that somebody would be even better again, that the improvement woulda been accelerated yet further.
As I’ve said many times, the problem was that a system that worked for foreign players came in at the time Korea had its systems ripped away with nothing to compensate
Elite football players aren’t grinding it out for hours and hours a day, their talent is honed when they were kids, and it’s a matter of maintaining that.
The top Europeans are the very players who mained SC2 from a young age and got to mature and develop with being a pro being a sensible economic proposition. But unfortunately their Korean equivalents didn’t really get that chance.
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On June 23 2024 20:04 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 13:13 NoobSkills wrote:On June 23 2024 12:27 Balnazza wrote:On June 23 2024 11:59 NoobSkills wrote:On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional. This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS. And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent. And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead. And yet, players who weren't in teamhouses and Proleague could still compete with most of the top-dogs - namely the koreans who came over into the west. BlizzCon is full of wins against the best Kespa-koreans, even though they eventually always took the trophy home. I can give you another take on your view: A lot of koreans "coasted by" (which I will agree with my foreposter, that is just disrespectful) because Proleague offered them money, even though they didn't impact GSL much, nor did they have the "dedication" to go west and prove themselves. When Proleague was gone, you either were good enough to get money or you had to leave. Secure money can people make very complacent. I remember back in the day when the discussion was that the german EPS awards too much money, so german players never seemed to care enough to prove themselves internationally. Same can be applied to Proleague - not that I would personally, but that seems to be your take? But I think my point is there wasn't a KESPA era level design for SC2 nor team houses that reflected that standard. While some team houses existed, the scene was pretty chaotic and messy with everything (mostly blizzard's fault) so nothing was established in that way. Do you have any proof or evidence of the things you write? Or are you just making up things with a lot of confidence?
Lack of a proleague for several years. Lack of dual tournament setup. Lack of players in team houses. Team houses that lasted months or maybe a year then dissolved due to some drama. Most of the BW team houses not existing in SC2 what so ever. I'm not saying zero team houses were ever made, but in what way could they be anywhere near that same level?
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A lot of weird reconning going on in this thread lol. You realize the same teams/staff ran the team houses in bw and sc2? Pretty much any western interview of players who visited the team houses show how far ahead the infrastructure was at the time.
Also at that time the Koreans who went to play in wcs eu/na etc were generally considered to be doing so to either "revive" their career or for easier qualifications + prize money.
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Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check.
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On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check.
If my count is correct, he and Dark are both at 12. Next would be Reynor with 10, then Serral/soO/Stats/MC with 9 each.
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Whilst I don't agree that Maru is the #1 GOAT, I'm very happy that the article put him there just to hear the controversy and fanboyism. This is almost on par with the amount of controversy that the elephant in the room article generated.
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On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check.
To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air.
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Northern Ireland22928 Posts
Mary was both better in Proleague, and individual leagues for a hell of a long time than Rogue. Rogue subsequently had periods where he was posting better results
$o$ had some huge peaks and statement wins, but wasn’t exactly Mr Consistent in others
I mean arguments can be made certainly, I think overall Maru was overall Jin Air’s top dog. Among the other two one didn’t do much in HoTS and one didn’t do much in Legacy, whereas Maru was amongst the best in both titles.
Maru’s entire GOAT case rests on generally being a top 4/5 player for huge chunks of the game’s existence, and having periods being the guy too.
None of Maru’s Kespa peers can really tick both of those boxes for anything like the time period Maru does.
Serral has a pretty monster CV too and for me he’s gapped the field in periods more than anyone else, for longer periods. For me that’s his claim and it’s a strong one, but equally there are issues of comparing eras and that’s tricky
But I don’t really see any other candidate for the #1 slot on balance.
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On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air.
When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions).
I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.)
Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy).
Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators.
I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue.
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On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue.
Reading this has encapsulated why I've been feeling like I'm forcing myself to stay in this community. The multifaceted pro Europe bias is clear, and it's a gigantic turn off.
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Northern Ireland22928 Posts
On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue.
Do you have to add the white qualifier to Western? There’s plenty of that audience who aren’t in fact white folks
I don’t think Oliveira did meet the criteria Serral did, but the fact it’s ’think’ indicates a pretty terrible bit of communication. My impression was it was for international events under their banner and included things like DH Masters which Serral has in his locker and Oliveira doesn’t. But, again the fact I and others are unsure what that trophy was meant for in and of itself are indicative of a pretty chaotic presentation.
Largely I don’t think people are saying Proleague is equivalent to Nation Wars in quality, but equivalently difficult to weight in a scene where prestige is largely determined by individual leagues. You had to live in Korea, be on an eligible team and be active in a period of a few years to even play in it.
How do I judge Serral versus Maru, or Mvp versus Maru while including Proleague? Well, I just don’t consider it, whereas I would consider it in a Maru vs Innovation for example.
This doesn’t mean I don’t value Proleague as the competition it was, but we get into territory where it’s hard to factor in where players never played it versus those who did.
On the flipside a player from a strong StarCraft nation can’t really replicate what Serral did in NationWars. You can’t solo carry a strong team, so while it’s impressive as a feat, it’s not a feat say, a Korean could ever realistically get the opportunity to replicate, so again it’s a fun feat nonetheless but not one I’d count in the wider GOAT debate.
WESG had the problem of not connecting with audiences, and its actual fields not being the most stacked, so I understand how some undervalue it. On the flipside for those more familiar with the nitty gritty of the scene, qualifying to be the Korean representative was the real test, just as simply being the Korean(s) at WCG was probably harder than actually winning a WCG.
It becomes a difficult tournament to accurately gauge, although I think people undervalue it. Really the case against Maru is he hasn’t shown up and won a weekender with a high-quality field on said weekend. An arbitrary distinction some may say, but I think it’s a reasonable enough one.
I personally thoroughly disagree with Artosis re Rogue, but I don’t think it’s an outrageous enough opinion to attract genuine vitriol.
I think one can make an argument for Rogue versus Maru and Serral individually, but not the both of them. Maru has a better HoTS by a distance, and way more KILs, Serral has WCs too, better numbers, better consistency and more regular premiers.
So you can make an argument for Rogue > Serral if you rate Starleagues super high, but then Maru beats him. And you can make an argument that Rogue > Maru because of WCs but then Serral has equivalent accomplishments there, in less time as a progamer and IMO wins elsewhere if WCs are tied
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Northern Ireland22928 Posts
On June 29 2024 04:38 lokol4890 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Reading this has encapsulated why I've been feeling like I'm forcing myself to stay in this community. The multifaceted pro Europe bias is clear, and it's a gigantic turn off.
I don’t like it personally, equally I’m really not a fan of the other end of the extreme either where the scene is just garbage now and unless you were a Korean in peak Kespa everything is irrelevant.
The scene has gone through many a structural shift, we’re in one where a few top Europeans are amongst the very best and that’s the hand we’ve been dealt, not some alternate reality.
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The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source.
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Northern Ireland22928 Posts
On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source.
Most of Rogue’s achievements came in periods where Zerg was really strong, I think it’s kinda hard to dispute that.
You can’t really say the same of Maru at all, and increasingly not with Serral either. Much as it seems to escape discourse Zerg has been nerfed and nerfed to the extent that Serral’s peers just aren’t quite replicating what he’s doing.
I think Rogue is wrestling with Inno really for that third spot, or Mvp, and hell it’s hardly insulting to be in the conversation for #3 all time.
Inno has the HoTS achievements Rogue doesn’t, but Rogue has the WCs that Inno didn’t quite deliver.
As I said before you can maybe construct a case that Rogue > one of Serral or Maru depending on how you weigh things, but I struggle to think of one that sees him ahead of both
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On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue.
Pro league was a proven fixed league, so not sure why you compared it to nation wars.
Whether people like to WESG as a WC is up to them, but most people don’t think it’s a WC just like lots of people claim Serral didn’t win 2 GSL’s. And it’s pretty true Maru just does not win as often outside of Korea, 1-2 wins in a decade is hardly anything to brag about. While almost everything Serral touches turns to gold
Most people have no problem with ESL presenting the trophy and calling Serral the Goat , most casters calls him the goat during tournaments anyways.
Some people may find it awkward and cringe during that presentation? Well that’s the same feeling most people have when we hear “GSL is the hardest tournament to win” cause GSL has been a shell of itself since 2017 (the last couple years has been laughable since they could barely get enough people to participate/ sign up)
No problem with Artosis thinking Rogue is the goat, people are just annoyed at his criteria not being consistence. Majority of his career was in Korea, so it’s obvious he has a slight bias which the viewers can clearly see
Everyone can have their own opinion who the goat is etc and each has the same weight. However some opinions are weigh more such as pro players and casters than the TL / Reddit forum posters
Without the so you called it “white western foreigner bias” and ESL, they are the one that are keeping SC2 alive and healthy. Korea would have died long ago without funding from blizzard
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On June 29 2024 05:08 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Most of Rogue’s achievements came in periods where Zerg was really strong, I think it’s kinda hard to dispute that. You can’t really say the same of Maru at all, and increasingly not with Serral either. Much as it seems to escape discourse Zerg has been nerfed and nerfed to the extent that Serral’s peers just aren’t quite replicating what he’s doing. I think Rogue is wrestling with Inno really for that third spot, or Mvp, and hell it’s hardly insulting to be in the conversation for #3 all time. Inno has the HoTS achievements Rogue doesn’t, but Rogue has the WCs that Inno didn’t quite deliver. As I said before you can maybe construct a case that Rogue > one of Serral or Maru depending on how you weigh things, but I struggle to think of one that sees him ahead of both
You could say the same about inno and mvp.
Inno won most of his GSL when terrans was extremely powerful in hots
MVP also won during the period when terran was extremely powerful and broken (but to be fair to him, the game was relatively new)
However I do think rogue sits comfortably ahead of inno /mvp in terms of goat list just because of his WCs
MVP is highly overrated, he was a pioneer for the game but he definitely not a goat contender, for me he sits at 15-20 along with MVP and Neatea
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