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On June 29 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Do you have to add the white qualifier to Western? There’s plenty of that audience who aren’t in fact white folks I don’t think Oliveira did meet the criteria Serral did, but the fact it’s ’think’ indicates a pretty terrible bit of communication. My impression was it was for international events under their banner and included things like DH Masters which Serral has in his locker and Oliveira doesn’t. But, again the fact I and others are unsure what that trophy was meant for in and of itself are indicative of a pretty chaotic presentation. Largely I don’t think people are saying Proleague is equivalent to Nation Wars in quality, but equivalently difficult to weight in a scene where prestige is largely determined by individual leagues. You had to live in Korea, be on an eligible team and be active in a period of a few years to even play in it. How do I judge Serral versus Maru, or Mvp versus Maru while including Proleague? Well, I just don’t consider it, whereas I would consider it in a Maru vs Innovation for example. This doesn’t mean I don’t value Proleague as the competition it was, but we get into territory where it’s hard to factor in where players never played it versus those who did. On the flipside a player from a strong StarCraft nation can’t really replicate what Serral did in NationWars. You can’t solo carry a strong team, so while it’s impressive as a feat, it’s not a feat say, a Korean could ever realistically get the opportunity to replicate, so again it’s a fun feat nonetheless but not one I’d count in the wider GOAT debate. WESG had the problem of not connecting with audiences, and its actual fields not being the most stacked, so I understand how some undervalue it. On the flipside for those more familiar with the nitty gritty of the scene, qualifying to be the Korean representative was the real test, just as simply being the Korean(s) at WCG was probably harder than actually winning a WCG. It becomes a difficult tournament to accurately gauge, although I think people undervalue it. Really the case against Maru is he hasn’t shown up and won a weekender with a high-quality field on said weekend. An arbitrary distinction some may say, but I think it’s a reasonable enough one. I personally thoroughly disagree with Artosis re Rogue, but I don’t think it’s an outrageous enough opinion to attract genuine vitriol. I think one can make an argument for Rogue versus Maru and Serral individually, but not the both of them. Maru has a better HoTS by a distance, and way more KILs, Serral has WCs too, better numbers, better consistency and more regular premiers. So you can make an argument for Rogue > Serral if you rate Starleagues super high, but then Maru beats him. And you can make an argument that Rogue > Maru because of WCs but then Serral has equivalent accomplishments there, in less time as a progamer and IMO wins elsewhere if WCs are tied
I qualified it a bit because of course not all white folk think the same, but also many people who identify as BIPOC are more attuned to these dynamics (though some are not and we all internalize many of the same biases). Knowing a thing or two about such matters from personal experience and my day job, I can say with some degree of confidence that there's enough structural racism at play here to be right at home in an Edward Said lecture. I do want to clarify that I am not calling anyone a racist or even describing any explicitly racist phenomena, but just surfacing the undercurrents that are at play in literally every field and making some potential connections for folks who may not immediately (want to?) see them.
I'm less interested in continuing to argue the merits of these things since it's all more-or-less been said before many times in these threads, but this discounting of Proleague continues to greatly annoy me so I will make one more attempt to challenge you with reason.
Assume for the sake of thought experiment that you believe Proleague was by far the most important, competitive, and prestigious competition in SC2's history and assume that you believe that in the modern era the premiere tournaments are significantly less important, competitive, and prestigious. Would you still hold the opinion that Proleague should not be considered simply because some players were not able to compete in it?
After you answer, consider this. Babe Ruth is as close as you'll get to a consensus GOAT pick in any sport or game. And he played in the MLB at a time in which Black athletes were prohibited from participating (and when participation was generally more limited for a variety of reasons, not least of which was that Babe Ruth had not yet almost single-handedly popularized the sport). Under your logic, this should automatically disqualify those games from being considered and, by extension, Babe Ruth from being considered (since those were the only games he played in).
Here's the thing: in every sport, various factors make it hard to compare different eras of competition and reasonable people will disagree on how to weigh and value things. But if your solution is to exclude one of the most competitive and prestigious competitions in the game's history simply because your favorite player wasn't able to compete in it, you're doing it wrong.
In this case you have it backwards. It's not so much that Proleague is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it, it's that Serral is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it (or any of the most competitive tournaments in the game's history). Playing during an era with a more limited pool of competition does not mean Serral cannot be the GOAT any more than it means Babe Ruth cannot be the GOAT. It does mean that if you conclude that Serral is the GOAT, it's that much more impressive because you'll have concluded that he is the most accomplished player compared to even those who had great accomplishments in Proleague and other competitions during the most competitive era of SC2.
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On June 29 2024 05:18 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Pro league was a proven fixed league, so not sure why you compared it to nation wars. Whether people like to WESG as a WC is up to them, but most people don’t think it’s a WC just like lots of people claim Serral didn’t win 2 GSL’s. And it’s pretty true Maru just does not win as often outside of Korea, 1-2 wins in a decade is hardly anything to brag about. While almost everything Serral touches turns to gold Most people have no problem with ESL presenting the trophy and calling Serral the Goat , most casters calls him the goat during tournaments anyways. Some people may find it awkward and cringe during that presentation? Well that’s the same feeling most people have when we hear “GSL is the hardest tournament to win” cause GSL has been a shell of itself since 2017 (the last couple years has been laughable since they could barely get enough people to participate/ sign up) No problem with Artosis thinking Rogue is the goat, people are just annoyed at his criteria not being consistence. Majority of his career was in Korea, so it’s obvious he has a slight bias which the viewers can clearly see Everyone can have their own opinion who the goat is etc and each has the same weight. However some opinions are weigh more such as pro players and casters than the TL / Reddit forum posters Without the so you called it “white western foreigner bias” and ESL, they are the one that are keeping SC2 alive and healthy. Korea would have died long ago without funding from blizzard
I don't even mind that you dodged and deflected because I love this post so much for what it reveals.
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On June 29 2024 05:18 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Pro league was a proven fixed league, so not sure why you compared it to nation wars. Whether people like to WESG as a WC is up to them, but most people don’t think it’s a WC just like lots of people claim Serral didn’t win 2 GSL’s. And it’s pretty true Maru just does not win as often outside of Korea, 1-2 wins in a decade is hardly anything to brag about. While almost everything Serral touches turns to gold Most people have no problem with ESL presenting the trophy and calling Serral the Goat , most casters calls him the goat during tournaments anyways. Some people may find it awkward and cringe during that presentation? Well that’s the same feeling most people have when we hear “GSL is the hardest tournament to win” cause GSL has been a shell of itself since 2017 (the last couple years has been laughable since they could barely get enough people to participate/ sign up) No problem with Artosis thinking Rogue is the goat, people are just annoyed at his criteria not being consistence. Majority of his career was in Korea, so it’s obvious he has a slight bias which the viewers can clearly see Everyone can have their own opinion who the goat is etc and each has the same weight. However some opinions are weigh more such as pro players and casters than the TL / Reddit forum posters Without the so you called it “white western foreigner bias” and ESL, they are the one that are keeping SC2 alive and healthy. Korea would have died long ago without funding from blizzard
You're saying that the entirety of BW's proleague was rigged? Or am I reading that wrong?
I'm not really big into the entire goat or not thing. I'm sure they all have claims. Could argue serral started after the crazy years, existed in the foreign scene, and excelled only after old pros were retiring or had their first break due to Covid, with players willing to back off because they were playing professionally since before SC2 was a thing. But you could make different arguments for each and every one of them.
As for the opinion or pros vs casters vs HLTV. There are as many casters as a percentage as there are HLTV members who cannot use reasoning to come to any sort of intelligent conclusion. And plenty of mocking bird type casters as well as HLTV users. I would argue that pros tend to have a larger insight, but again being a pro or how good you are as a pro, doesn't suddenly bolster your opinion to analyze and compare careers without any bias or make you immune from being a mockingbird as well.
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On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source.
Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue.
One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is.
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United States1798 Posts
On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is.
People can disagree with me, but I think it's impossible to discuss the GOAT argument in sufficient detail in five minutes. In an ideal world you would have to take Rogue's performances in Proleague (he was never an ace player, but was very solid), his lack of individual results pre 2017, the fact that his win percentage is wanting (compared to other goat candidates) in long running tournaments (Code S) as well as on a year by year basis into account. Head to head matters as well, just as analyzing the strength of the field in the events in which he won (or was eliminated surprisingly early) without incorporating too much subjectivity. The 13-1 record in premier finals is a huge point in his favor but, you also need to look at how he performed in the R8 and R4 over the years (a great example is soO, who is 0-6 in Code S finals, but 13-1 in the quarter/semifinals). Artosis raises some good points, but bonjwa is an absurdly nebulous term and you need way more context to establish what "Great" means in the context of the rankings and how "Greatest player" differs from "Greatest Career". I personally feel like Rogue's combined achievements place him ahead of Mvp (who I had fourth), but his lack of consistency set him on a tier below Serral and Maru.
I'm cutting this short because I could go on and on about all the elements that go into something like this (this is my opinion so, again, feel free to disagree), but I'm 100% certain that you can't cover all the factors listed above (let alone apply them when discussing one players profile versus another's) in that amount of time.
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On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is.
Love seeing credit for Artosis where it's due. Strongly agreed.
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United States1798 Posts
On June 29 2024 11:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is. Love seeing credit for Artosis where it's due. Strongly agreed.
You have to admit that it is mildly humorous that he said Artosis' video convinced him, but then wasn't sure if Artosis even mentioned the 13-1 record.
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Northern Ireland23717 Posts
On June 29 2024 07:30 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Do you have to add the white qualifier to Western? There’s plenty of that audience who aren’t in fact white folks I don’t think Oliveira did meet the criteria Serral did, but the fact it’s ’think’ indicates a pretty terrible bit of communication. My impression was it was for international events under their banner and included things like DH Masters which Serral has in his locker and Oliveira doesn’t. But, again the fact I and others are unsure what that trophy was meant for in and of itself are indicative of a pretty chaotic presentation. Largely I don’t think people are saying Proleague is equivalent to Nation Wars in quality, but equivalently difficult to weight in a scene where prestige is largely determined by individual leagues. You had to live in Korea, be on an eligible team and be active in a period of a few years to even play in it. How do I judge Serral versus Maru, or Mvp versus Maru while including Proleague? Well, I just don’t consider it, whereas I would consider it in a Maru vs Innovation for example. This doesn’t mean I don’t value Proleague as the competition it was, but we get into territory where it’s hard to factor in where players never played it versus those who did. On the flipside a player from a strong StarCraft nation can’t really replicate what Serral did in NationWars. You can’t solo carry a strong team, so while it’s impressive as a feat, it’s not a feat say, a Korean could ever realistically get the opportunity to replicate, so again it’s a fun feat nonetheless but not one I’d count in the wider GOAT debate. WESG had the problem of not connecting with audiences, and its actual fields not being the most stacked, so I understand how some undervalue it. On the flipside for those more familiar with the nitty gritty of the scene, qualifying to be the Korean representative was the real test, just as simply being the Korean(s) at WCG was probably harder than actually winning a WCG. It becomes a difficult tournament to accurately gauge, although I think people undervalue it. Really the case against Maru is he hasn’t shown up and won a weekender with a high-quality field on said weekend. An arbitrary distinction some may say, but I think it’s a reasonable enough one. I personally thoroughly disagree with Artosis re Rogue, but I don’t think it’s an outrageous enough opinion to attract genuine vitriol. I think one can make an argument for Rogue versus Maru and Serral individually, but not the both of them. Maru has a better HoTS by a distance, and way more KILs, Serral has WCs too, better numbers, better consistency and more regular premiers. So you can make an argument for Rogue > Serral if you rate Starleagues super high, but then Maru beats him. And you can make an argument that Rogue > Maru because of WCs but then Serral has equivalent accomplishments there, in less time as a progamer and IMO wins elsewhere if WCs are tied I qualified it a bit because of course not all white folk think the same, but also many people who identify as BIPOC are more attuned to these dynamics (though some are not and we all internalize many of the same biases). Knowing a thing or two about such matters from personal experience and my day job, I can say with some degree of confidence that there's enough structural racism at play here to be right at home in an Edward Said lecture. I do want to clarify that I am not calling anyone a racist or even describing any explicitly racist phenomena, but just surfacing the undercurrents that are at play in literally every field and making some potential connections for folks who may not immediately (want to?) see them. I'm less interested in continuing to argue the merits of these things since it's all more-or-less been said before many times in these threads, but this discounting of Proleague continues to greatly annoy me so I will make one more attempt to challenge you with reason. Assume for the sake of thought experiment that you believe Proleague was by far the most important, competitive, and prestigious competition in SC2's history and assume that you believe that in the modern era the premiere tournaments are significantly less important, competitive, and prestigious. Would you still hold the opinion that Proleague should not be considered simply because some players were not able to compete in it? After you answer, consider this. Babe Ruth is as close as you'll get to a consensus GOAT pick in any sport or game. And he played in the MLB at a time in which Black athletes were prohibited from participating (and when participation was generally more limited for a variety of reasons, not least of which was that Babe Ruth had not yet almost single-handedly popularized the sport). Under your logic, this should automatically disqualify those games from being considered and, by extension, Babe Ruth from being considered (since those were the only games he played in). Here's the thing: in every sport, various factors make it hard to compare different eras of competition and reasonable people will disagree on how to weigh and value things. But if your solution is to exclude one of the most competitive and prestigious competitions in the game's history simply because your favorite player wasn't able to compete in it, you're doing it wrong. In this case you have it backwards. It's not so much that Proleague is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it, it's that Serral is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it (or any of the most competitive tournaments in the game's history). Playing during an era with a more limited pool of competition does not mean Serral cannot be the GOAT any more than it means Babe Ruth cannot be the GOAT. It does mean that if you conclude that Serral is the GOAT, it's that much more impressive because you'll have concluded that he is the most accomplished player compared to even those who had great accomplishments in Proleague and other competitions during the most competitive era of SC2.
This does somewhat go both ways, I’ve been especially critical of Kespa here more than other Korean orgs. SC2 was always more open, bridges between Korea and elsewhere were built and the scenes got more exposure. Kespa went entirely back in the opposite direction. Like ‘we started this eSports thing we’re gonna just do that again’ without any real consideration for the wider audience at the time.
So it’s not really surprising that big chunks of that audience don’t really care, although I think they’re wrong not to, mistakes were certainly made. I am certainly no fan of the more myopic foreigner bias, that perhaps is underpinned by biases of what you speak, although the archetypal ‘Korean elitist’ is the other side of that coin really. Especially when it’s casters doing it, something I’ve been critical of in many an LR thread.
Anyway, as I said, Proleague only ran for a fraction of the period of SC2’s pro history, in a different format to the vast majority of other competition, and was an effectively closed shop to boot. A player couldn’t just qualify for it
Its not as if people are talking much about other team competitions in the wider GOAT chat either, its not just Proleague that suffers from most focusing on individual leagues.
As I said I would use it to split peer players, but not factor it in for players who weren’t able to play in it for whatever reason. I’ve said that multiple times that I’m not excluding it entirely
In the same sense I would perhaps look at World Cup performances of comparable football players who played for big nations who frequently qualified. But I wouldn’t consider it when assessing someone like Erling Haaland, who by virtue of playing for Norway is unlikely to play in one for no real fault of his talent.
Top level European club football is currently the highest standard going, but I wouldn’t count that against Pele for never playing there because that wasn’t the case in his day.
You compare what you can reasonably compare if applicable, if it’s not then I don’t try to compare it, would be my broader approach.
I mean SC2 illustrates this difficulty, between 3 expansions, multiple changes of tournament structure and the pre, during and post-Kespa eras it’s already almost impossible as a task IMO. With sports with over a century of history I tend not to even try, one can merely reside in the GOATs pantheon but I think it’s a fool’s errand to try and directly compare say Pele and Messi
But part of why I have Maru above Rogue, and also actually Innovation is their Proleague performances and what they did in individual leagues during that more competitive era, so it is something I do factor in as they are directly comparable peers.
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On June 29 2024 11:42 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is. People can disagree with me, but I think it's impossible to discuss the GOAT argument in sufficient detail in five minutes. In an ideal world you would have to take Rogue's performances in Proleague (he was never an ace player, but was very solid), his lack of individual results pre 2017, the fact that his win percentage is wanting (compared to other goat candidates) in long running tournaments (Code S) as well as on a year by year basis into account. Head to head matters as well, just as analyzing the strength of the field in the events in which he won (or was eliminated surprisingly early) without incorporating too much subjectivity. The 13-1 record in premier finals is a huge point in his favor but, you also need to look at how he performed in the R8 and R4 over the years (a great example is soO, who is 0-6 in Code S finals, but 13-1 in the quarter/semifinals). Artosis raises some good points, but bonjwa is an absurdly nebulous term and you need way more context to establish what "Great" means in the context of the rankings and how "Greatest player" differs from "Greatest Career". I personally feel like Rogue's combined achievements place him ahead of Mvp (who I had fourth), but his lack of consistency set him on a tier below Serral and Maru. I'm cutting this short because I could go on and on about all the elements that go into something like this (this is my opinion so, again, feel free to disagree), but I'm 100% certain that you can't cover all the factors listed above (let alone apply them when discussing one players profile versus another's) in that amount of time.
Agree to disagree. I live and work in a world in which if you can’t present your argument in 5 minutes, it’s probably because your argument isn’t very good. I don’t think that’s the case with you, but I would also ask you whether this volume of back-and-forth in this forum has added more illumination than heat with all this “detail.” It’s often the case that spewing “detail” serves to obfuscate more than clarify, which is why you see folks just throwing out random “details” like how much money someone made if they think it’ll bolster their argument. It’s much more important to be clear about your definitions, values, methodologies, which further clarifies which details, factors, and elements are important, and which are not.
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On June 29 2024 14:06 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 11:44 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is. Love seeing credit for Artosis where it's due. Strongly agreed. You have to admit that it is mildly humorous that he said Artosis' video convinced him, but then wasn't sure if Artosis even mentioned the 13-1 record.
Yes I moonlight as a gamer bro forum comedian, thanks for acknowledging;)
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On June 29 2024 20:20 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 07:30 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Do you have to add the white qualifier to Western? There’s plenty of that audience who aren’t in fact white folks I don’t think Oliveira did meet the criteria Serral did, but the fact it’s ’think’ indicates a pretty terrible bit of communication. My impression was it was for international events under their banner and included things like DH Masters which Serral has in his locker and Oliveira doesn’t. But, again the fact I and others are unsure what that trophy was meant for in and of itself are indicative of a pretty chaotic presentation. Largely I don’t think people are saying Proleague is equivalent to Nation Wars in quality, but equivalently difficult to weight in a scene where prestige is largely determined by individual leagues. You had to live in Korea, be on an eligible team and be active in a period of a few years to even play in it. How do I judge Serral versus Maru, or Mvp versus Maru while including Proleague? Well, I just don’t consider it, whereas I would consider it in a Maru vs Innovation for example. This doesn’t mean I don’t value Proleague as the competition it was, but we get into territory where it’s hard to factor in where players never played it versus those who did. On the flipside a player from a strong StarCraft nation can’t really replicate what Serral did in NationWars. You can’t solo carry a strong team, so while it’s impressive as a feat, it’s not a feat say, a Korean could ever realistically get the opportunity to replicate, so again it’s a fun feat nonetheless but not one I’d count in the wider GOAT debate. WESG had the problem of not connecting with audiences, and its actual fields not being the most stacked, so I understand how some undervalue it. On the flipside for those more familiar with the nitty gritty of the scene, qualifying to be the Korean representative was the real test, just as simply being the Korean(s) at WCG was probably harder than actually winning a WCG. It becomes a difficult tournament to accurately gauge, although I think people undervalue it. Really the case against Maru is he hasn’t shown up and won a weekender with a high-quality field on said weekend. An arbitrary distinction some may say, but I think it’s a reasonable enough one. I personally thoroughly disagree with Artosis re Rogue, but I don’t think it’s an outrageous enough opinion to attract genuine vitriol. I think one can make an argument for Rogue versus Maru and Serral individually, but not the both of them. Maru has a better HoTS by a distance, and way more KILs, Serral has WCs too, better numbers, better consistency and more regular premiers. So you can make an argument for Rogue > Serral if you rate Starleagues super high, but then Maru beats him. And you can make an argument that Rogue > Maru because of WCs but then Serral has equivalent accomplishments there, in less time as a progamer and IMO wins elsewhere if WCs are tied I qualified it a bit because of course not all white folk think the same, but also many people who identify as BIPOC are more attuned to these dynamics (though some are not and we all internalize many of the same biases). Knowing a thing or two about such matters from personal experience and my day job, I can say with some degree of confidence that there's enough structural racism at play here to be right at home in an Edward Said lecture. I do want to clarify that I am not calling anyone a racist or even describing any explicitly racist phenomena, but just surfacing the undercurrents that are at play in literally every field and making some potential connections for folks who may not immediately (want to?) see them. I'm less interested in continuing to argue the merits of these things since it's all more-or-less been said before many times in these threads, but this discounting of Proleague continues to greatly annoy me so I will make one more attempt to challenge you with reason. Assume for the sake of thought experiment that you believe Proleague was by far the most important, competitive, and prestigious competition in SC2's history and assume that you believe that in the modern era the premiere tournaments are significantly less important, competitive, and prestigious. Would you still hold the opinion that Proleague should not be considered simply because some players were not able to compete in it? After you answer, consider this. Babe Ruth is as close as you'll get to a consensus GOAT pick in any sport or game. And he played in the MLB at a time in which Black athletes were prohibited from participating (and when participation was generally more limited for a variety of reasons, not least of which was that Babe Ruth had not yet almost single-handedly popularized the sport). Under your logic, this should automatically disqualify those games from being considered and, by extension, Babe Ruth from being considered (since those were the only games he played in). Here's the thing: in every sport, various factors make it hard to compare different eras of competition and reasonable people will disagree on how to weigh and value things. But if your solution is to exclude one of the most competitive and prestigious competitions in the game's history simply because your favorite player wasn't able to compete in it, you're doing it wrong. In this case you have it backwards. It's not so much that Proleague is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it, it's that Serral is difficult to evaluate because Serral wasn't in it (or any of the most competitive tournaments in the game's history). Playing during an era with a more limited pool of competition does not mean Serral cannot be the GOAT any more than it means Babe Ruth cannot be the GOAT. It does mean that if you conclude that Serral is the GOAT, it's that much more impressive because you'll have concluded that he is the most accomplished player compared to even those who had great accomplishments in Proleague and other competitions during the most competitive era of SC2. This does somewhat go both ways, I’ve been especially critical of Kespa here more than other Korean orgs. SC2 was always more open, bridges between Korea and elsewhere were built and the scenes got more exposure. Kespa went entirely back in the opposite direction. Like ‘we started this eSports thing we’re gonna just do that again’ without any real consideration for the wider audience at the time. So it’s not really surprising that big chunks of that audience don’t really care, although I think they’re wrong not to, mistakes were certainly made. I am certainly no fan of the more myopic foreigner bias, that perhaps is underpinned by biases of what you speak, although the archetypal ‘Korean elitist’ is the other side of that coin really. Especially when it’s casters doing it, something I’ve been critical of in many an LR thread. Anyway, as I said, Proleague only ran for a fraction of the period of SC2’s pro history, in a different format to the vast majority of other competition, and was an effectively closed shop to boot. A player couldn’t just qualify for it Its not as if people are talking much about other team competitions in the wider GOAT chat either, its not just Proleague that suffers from most focusing on individual leagues. As I said I would use it to split peer players, but not factor it in for players who weren’t able to play in it for whatever reason. I’ve said that multiple times that I’m not excluding it entirely In the same sense I would perhaps look at World Cup performances of comparable football players who played for big nations who frequently qualified. But I wouldn’t consider it when assessing someone like Erling Haaland, who by virtue of playing for Norway is unlikely to play in one for no real fault of his talent. Top level European club football is currently the highest standard going, but I wouldn’t count that against Pele for never playing there because that wasn’t the case in his day. You compare what you can reasonably compare if applicable, if it’s not then I don’t try to compare it, would be my broader approach. I mean SC2 illustrates this difficulty, between 3 expansions, multiple changes of tournament structure and the pre, during and post-Kespa eras it’s already almost impossible as a task IMO. With sports with over a century of history I tend not to even try, one can merely reside in the GOATs pantheon but I think it’s a fool’s errand to try and directly compare say Pele and Messi But part of why I have Maru above Rogue, and also actually Innovation is their Proleague performances and what they did in individual leagues during that more competitive era, so it is something I do factor in as they are directly comparable peers.
There’s a lot that I could say in response but I’m just going to take this as a concession that Proleague should be factored in significantly for those players who played in it.
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Northern Ireland23717 Posts
On June 29 2024 21:47 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 11:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is. People can disagree with me, but I think it's impossible to discuss the GOAT argument in sufficient detail in five minutes. In an ideal world you would have to take Rogue's performances in Proleague (he was never an ace player, but was very solid), his lack of individual results pre 2017, the fact that his win percentage is wanting (compared to other goat candidates) in long running tournaments (Code S) as well as on a year by year basis into account. Head to head matters as well, just as analyzing the strength of the field in the events in which he won (or was eliminated surprisingly early) without incorporating too much subjectivity. The 13-1 record in premier finals is a huge point in his favor but, you also need to look at how he performed in the R8 and R4 over the years (a great example is soO, who is 0-6 in Code S finals, but 13-1 in the quarter/semifinals). Artosis raises some good points, but bonjwa is an absurdly nebulous term and you need way more context to establish what "Great" means in the context of the rankings and how "Greatest player" differs from "Greatest Career". I personally feel like Rogue's combined achievements place him ahead of Mvp (who I had fourth), but his lack of consistency set him on a tier below Serral and Maru. I'm cutting this short because I could go on and on about all the elements that go into something like this (this is my opinion so, again, feel free to disagree), but I'm 100% certain that you can't cover all the factors listed above (let alone apply them when discussing one players profile versus another's) in that amount of time. Agree to disagree. I live and work in a world in which if you can’t present your argument in 5 minutes, it’s probably because your argument isn’t very good. I don’t think that’s the case with you, but I would also ask you whether this volume of back-and-forth in this forum has added more illumination than heat with all this “detail.” It’s often the case that spewing “detail” serves to obfuscate more than clarify, which is why you see folks just throwing out random “details” like how much money someone made if they think it’ll bolster their argument. It’s much more important to be clear about your definitions, values, methodologies, which further clarifies which details, factors, and elements are important, and which are not.
It really depends on what you’re attempting to argue. Complex problems can require complex solutions.
You see this being a very apparent phenomenon in politics where the folks who promise simple solutions to complex problems appear to many to be the more convincing to many a voter because folks respond better to confident assertions than a ‘well this issue is complicated and I’m not sure about x’. Doesn’t necessarily give us good policy.
Miz alluded to this complexity from the off and did at least explain his methodology pretty damn thoroughly. Not saying you didn’t, but it’s not really his fault that other people critical of his list didn’t actually read all his rationales.
I mean I’ve long said there are too many incomparable factors to really have a definitive GOAT anyway, it’s a hell of a lot easier in BW which had a pretty consistent competition structure for most of its pro shelf life
Rogue was still a good player in the Proleague era, but perhaps an A class player and not an S class killer like someone like Innovation, or a Maru/Zest and players like that.
He clearly did become that S class player from 2017 onwards, but equally Maru won 4 GSLs in a row shortly after. Serral’s got a ridiculous resume in that span with similar big accomplishments but a consistency nobody else has ever really had.
In combination it feels hard to stick Rogue at #1 and I think his finals record gives him more a ‘most clutch’ cache and is a tad overrated re overall greatness. I know that’s an unpopular opinion but it’s to me indicative of a streaky player who’s great when they’re in the zone.
If somebody could correct me, as I briefly scanned it the other day I don’t think Serral has a worse than Ro8 performance in some 6/7 years of competition, has won more tournaments and has better win rates than anyone in that span.
Rogue’s finals record does attest to his ability to perform on the big stage when it counts, but the flipside of it given he frequently would drop out early in tournaments where he wasn’t making finals is ‘when Rogue is in good form he’ll win, and when he isn’t he doesn’t make finals’.
Whereas a player who can still drag himself to a final even out of form and by sheer force of will and lose it will still ultimately get the loss in that column. For me one of Mvp’s greatest achievements was even reaching a GSL finals against Life despite injuries clearly impacting his play to the degree he changed style considerably, and still almost pulled it off.
Rogue also has lost finals which is why the stat kept morphing until it’s ‘has never lost a finals in a Bo7 offline’ form it currently is. Which is still bloody impressive but the more caveats you add to a stat the less impressive it becomes.
In short I think you probably need a little more than 5 minutes for this one!
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On June 29 2024 05:24 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 05:08 WombaT wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Most of Rogue’s achievements came in periods where Zerg was really strong, I think it’s kinda hard to dispute that. You can’t really say the same of Maru at all, and increasingly not with Serral either. Much as it seems to escape discourse Zerg has been nerfed and nerfed to the extent that Serral’s peers just aren’t quite replicating what he’s doing. I think Rogue is wrestling with Inno really for that third spot, or Mvp, and hell it’s hardly insulting to be in the conversation for #3 all time. Inno has the HoTS achievements Rogue doesn’t, but Rogue has the WCs that Inno didn’t quite deliver. As I said before you can maybe construct a case that Rogue > one of Serral or Maru depending on how you weigh things, but I struggle to think of one that sees him ahead of both You could say the same about inno and mvp. Inno won most of his GSL when terrans was extremely powerful in hots MVP also won during the period when terran was extremely powerful and broken (but to be fair to him, the game was relatively new) However I do think rogue sits comfortably ahead of inno /mvp in terms of goat list just because of his WCs MVP is highly overrated, he was a pioneer for the game but he definitely not a goat contender, for me he sits at 15-20 along with MVP and Neatea
Except for Protoss in 2024, Terran in 2015 was the weakest year in terms of % earnings for any race.
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On June 29 2024 07:30 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 04:39 WombaT wrote:On June 29 2024 03:53 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 01:33 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 28 2024 20:01 ejozl wrote:
Maru is the GOAT the same way as SoO was the GOAT of HotS.
Maru is the 2nd best LotV player behind Serral.
Maru was the 2nd greatest Jin Air player behind Rogue, while still on Jin Air.
Maru was the 2nd best Jin Air proleague player behind sOs.
Maru is 2nd on player earnings.
Maru might actually have the most 2nd place premier finishes, I would have to double check. To add to that Maru is arguable the 3rd best player on his team during the whole existence of Jin air. When you think Proleague is an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars you end up with conclusions like this. It's also interesting to me that folks in this thread are no longer very subtle about the fact that because a primarily foreign (from the Korean perspective) audience constitutes the majority of SC2's viewership, this audience gets to retrospectively define which tournaments and leagues were the most important, competitive, prestigious, etc. It's even more interesting and telling to see that revisionist history so transparently play out in these bizarre ways. I understand the irony in my saying this in the context of a GOAT article written by Miz, but I don't think anyone would accuse him of a lack of knowledge or anti-Korean bias (even if many disagree with his analysis or conclusions). I've actually felt this way for a while before this GOAT convo. For example, for years it annoyed me when the primarily white, "Western" commentators would declaratively conclude that Maru has never been able to perform well outside of South Korea, ignoring the fact that the kid took home a fat bag winning and finishing runner-up in consecutive WESGs. Whatever you think about WESG, these were very impressive "weekender" performances in a premiere tournament against many top pros on foreign soil outside of the comfort of the GSL studios. I've noticed that more recently some of these commentators have started acknowledging those WESG performances, perhaps because they realize some of their previous takes that sought to lump in those WESGs into a broader category of performances "in Asia" weren't aging too well. (Some commentators had very specific theories about jet lag, which are valid, if not sound, but most takes were about the inability to perform in weekender tourneys outside of South Korea/GSL.) Which brings me to awkward situation that Wax pointed out in another article in which ESL gave Serral a trophy for a milestone that Oliveira had already met. The point is not that Serral doesn't deserve a special trophy, surely he does. It's important to recognize and celebrate such amazing performances. The point is that it sends the wrong message when you give Serral a trophy based on criteria that clearly and objectively would require Oliveira to have already gotten that trophy. This could have been avoided by giving Serral some lifetime achievement award (or really anything that would not open ESL up to accusations of bias and hypocrisy). Then there is the derision if not outright hostility that Artosis has been on the receiving end of for even suggesting that Rogue could be the GOAT, mostly from fans who summarily dismiss him as being some kind of pro-Korean simp rather than acknowledging that this is a legit take from one of the most experienced and knowledgeable Starcraft players and commentators. I see all these things as connected, and I'm fairly certain that most of the white, Western SC2 fans do not, or at least don't find them to be an issue. And to be fair, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. But it's also not a non-issue. Do you have to add the white qualifier to Western? There’s plenty of that audience who aren’t in fact white folks I don’t think Oliveira did meet the criteria Serral did, but the fact it’s ’think’ indicates a pretty terrible bit of communication. My impression was it was for international events under their banner and included things like DH Masters which Serral has in his locker and Oliveira doesn’t. But, again the fact I and others are unsure what that trophy was meant for in and of itself are indicative of a pretty chaotic presentation. Largely I don’t think people are saying Proleague is equivalent to Nation Wars in quality, but equivalently difficult to weight in a scene where prestige is largely determined by individual leagues. You had to live in Korea, be on an eligible team and be active in a period of a few years to even play in it. How do I judge Serral versus Maru, or Mvp versus Maru while including Proleague? Well, I just don’t consider it, whereas I would consider it in a Maru vs Innovation for example. This doesn’t mean I don’t value Proleague as the competition it was, but we get into territory where it’s hard to factor in where players never played it versus those who did. On the flipside a player from a strong StarCraft nation can’t really replicate what Serral did in NationWars. You can’t solo carry a strong team, so while it’s impressive as a feat, it’s not a feat say, a Korean could ever realistically get the opportunity to replicate, so again it’s a fun feat nonetheless but not one I’d count in the wider GOAT debate. WESG had the problem of not connecting with audiences, and its actual fields not being the most stacked, so I understand how some undervalue it. On the flipside for those more familiar with the nitty gritty of the scene, qualifying to be the Korean representative was the real test, just as simply being the Korean(s) at WCG was probably harder than actually winning a WCG. It becomes a difficult tournament to accurately gauge, although I think people undervalue it. Really the case against Maru is he hasn’t shown up and won a weekender with a high-quality field on said weekend. An arbitrary distinction some may say, but I think it’s a reasonable enough one. I personally thoroughly disagree with Artosis re Rogue, but I don’t think it’s an outrageous enough opinion to attract genuine vitriol. I think one can make an argument for Rogue versus Maru and Serral individually, but not the both of them. Maru has a better HoTS by a distance, and way more KILs, Serral has WCs too, better numbers, better consistency and more regular premiers. So you can make an argument for Rogue > Serral if you rate Starleagues super high, but then Maru beats him. And you can make an argument that Rogue > Maru because of WCs but then Serral has equivalent accomplishments there, in less time as a progamer and IMO wins elsewhere if WCs are tied After you answer, consider this. Babe Ruth is as close as you'll get to a consensus GOAT pick in any sport or game.
I don't care about the other stuff in the post but nah. Wayne Gretzky is the most obvious consensus GOAT pick. Literally everyone knows that.
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United States1798 Posts
On June 30 2024 07:40 ejozl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 05:24 Blitzball04 wrote:On June 29 2024 05:08 WombaT wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Most of Rogue’s achievements came in periods where Zerg was really strong, I think it’s kinda hard to dispute that. You can’t really say the same of Maru at all, and increasingly not with Serral either. Much as it seems to escape discourse Zerg has been nerfed and nerfed to the extent that Serral’s peers just aren’t quite replicating what he’s doing. I think Rogue is wrestling with Inno really for that third spot, or Mvp, and hell it’s hardly insulting to be in the conversation for #3 all time. Inno has the HoTS achievements Rogue doesn’t, but Rogue has the WCs that Inno didn’t quite deliver. As I said before you can maybe construct a case that Rogue > one of Serral or Maru depending on how you weigh things, but I struggle to think of one that sees him ahead of both You could say the same about inno and mvp. Inno won most of his GSL when terrans was extremely powerful in hots MVP also won during the period when terran was extremely powerful and broken (but to be fair to him, the game was relatively new) However I do think rogue sits comfortably ahead of inno /mvp in terms of goat list just because of his WCs MVP is highly overrated, he was a pioneer for the game but he definitely not a goat contender, for me he sits at 15-20 along with MVP and Neatea Except for Protoss in 2024, Terran in 2015 was the weakest year in terms of % earnings for any race.
Curiously, 2014 was a far worse year for Korean Terrans than 2015 despite the earnings split between races being more favorable.
Korean Terrans were awful during the first half of 2014 (Maru was the only Terran to reach the Round of 8 during the first two seasons of Code S (Ro8 in S1, Ro4 in Season 2)), but they fared much better in 2015. INnoVation and Maru both won a KIL in 2015 (they also reached the finals of weekenders as well. Dream also fared quite well in 2015 (despite his TvZ being god awful), who made the finals of another two seasons of SSL (back then Code S/SSL had a brutal first to second prize money ratio that plays a big part in this factoid).
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MMA,INno,Polt were the top earners and that has a lot to do with MMA and Polt farming region based tournaments. Polt also seemed to be a bit of a TvP specialist.
That SSL split is brutal 1/4th the money, despite rewarding more than half the WCS points for 2nd place.
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On June 29 2024 21:47 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 11:42 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 29 2024 08:27 rwala wrote:On June 29 2024 04:57 Bennito_bh wrote:
The Rogue angle is a bit silly TBF, though as a solid 3rd-4th place contender it certainly isn't absurd by any stretch. It only works if you rate GSLs as high as Kato/BCs and ignore Maru's better Proleague record. Rogue's more of an $o$ figure than GOAT material - albeit with more success in Korea - albeit he only did that in the period where Zerg was vastly overperforming relative to T and P.
From what I've read the community's backlash against Arty has less to do with the claim and more to do with how he presents it. Insulting people and treating them like morons may generate engagement (and thus $$) on a Twitch stream, but it does not actually help when presenting yourself as a credible source. Whether he presents himself as a credible source is beside the point. He is a credible source, but that's also beside the point, because he presents a sound argument. I actually think Arty has done a better job than anyone at very clearly and concisely defining what GOAT means, and explaining his reasoning for why Rogue is the GOAT in less than 5 minutes with a very simple chart that compares accomplishments. Which is why he doesn't get into excuses like you're doing with the above balance whining or random irrelevant things like how much money someone made. Arty's the only one who has explained the difference betweeen a bonjwa and the GOAT, and explained why head-to-head records are not the appropriate metric (e.g. some progamers have winning head-to-head records against Flash, the undisputed BW GOAT). He persuaded me, and I am not someone who is inclined to want to attribute GOAT status to Rogue. One thing I'm not sure Arty touched on was Rogue's insane 13-1 offline tournament finals record. This in and of itself is not only one of the greatest accomplishments in SC2, but in all of esports. It's kind of hard to overestimate how insane this is. People can disagree with me, but I think it's impossible to discuss the GOAT argument in sufficient detail in five minutes. In an ideal world you would have to take Rogue's performances in Proleague (he was never an ace player, but was very solid), his lack of individual results pre 2017, the fact that his win percentage is wanting (compared to other goat candidates) in long running tournaments (Code S) as well as on a year by year basis into account. Head to head matters as well, just as analyzing the strength of the field in the events in which he won (or was eliminated surprisingly early) without incorporating too much subjectivity. The 13-1 record in premier finals is a huge point in his favor but, you also need to look at how he performed in the R8 and R4 over the years (a great example is soO, who is 0-6 in Code S finals, but 13-1 in the quarter/semifinals). Artosis raises some good points, but bonjwa is an absurdly nebulous term and you need way more context to establish what "Great" means in the context of the rankings and how "Greatest player" differs from "Greatest Career". I personally feel like Rogue's combined achievements place him ahead of Mvp (who I had fourth), but his lack of consistency set him on a tier below Serral and Maru. I'm cutting this short because I could go on and on about all the elements that go into something like this (this is my opinion so, again, feel free to disagree), but I'm 100% certain that you can't cover all the factors listed above (let alone apply them when discussing one players profile versus another's) in that amount of time. Agree to disagree. I live and work in a world in which if you can’t present your argument in 5 minutes, it’s probably because your argument isn’t very good.
So...not a scientific field then? Because if there is one things scientist universally can't do is keeping it short. And that is good. Because keeping it short means omitting things. Not "trivia", but actual important data, facts or even speculations.
If you explain your data and reasoning, yes, you make yourself vulnerable. But you make yourself even more vulnerable if you just willy-nilly throw out your arguments and don't cover as much ground as possible. This gets more true the bigger the scope of the problem at hand. Yes, if you need to decide what colour your office should be painted in, the argument should be done in under five minutes, otherwise you ramble. But if you want to cover a very hard to quantify era of 14 years of professional SC2 over three different iterations...I might think five minutes could cut it tight just a tad.
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On June 30 2024 11:09 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2024 07:30 rwala wrote:
After you answer, consider this. Babe Ruth is as close as you'll get to a consensus GOAT pick in any sport or game.
I don't care about the other stuff in the post but nah. Wayne Gretzky is the most obvious consensus GOAT pick. Literally everyone knows that.
I was going to write the same haha, Gretzky's stat are so insane that they are hard to believe.
However, I would have put down the name of Aleksandr Karelin, with probably the greatest winning record the world has ever seen: 887 wins - 2 losses
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To get a list more similar to Mizens list (WoL/HotS results rock, LotV is kind of chobo territory), and using my earnings excel arc, I did: top 10 of each race, plotting in all of their earnings for each year and putting 2016+ at 0.5 value. You can decide the reason why it should be 0.5 value, balance got wacky, kespa disbanded and korean scene became less competitive, LotV lasted way longer, tournament prize pool got really large(although I would argue that the start GSL season also had overly large prize pools.)
#1 Serral
#2 Maru
#3 Dark
#4 Rogue
#5 INnoVation
#6 sOs
#7 MC
#8 Life
#9 Zest
#10 Polt
#11 MVP
#12 PartinG
#13 MMA
#14 SoO
#15 Reynor
Now adjusting for earnings balance, meaning winning while your race is winning earns you less prize money and vice versa:
#1 Maru +1
#2 INnoVation +3
#3 Serral -2
#4 MC +3
#5 Polt+4
#6 sOs
#7 Rogue -3
#8 Dark -5
#9 Life -1
#10 Zest -1
#11 herO +5
#12 TY +6
#13 PartinG +1
#14 MMA -1
#15 MVP -4
[+- Numbers are how many spots the player moved ahead/behind based on the "balance adjustment"]
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On July 01 2024 01:07 ejozl wrote:
To get a list more similar to Mizens list [...] putting 2016+ at 0.5 value.
Is this satire designed to highlight the inevitability of subjective judgment even in ostensibly quantitative analyses such as Mizenhauer's? Genuinely asking.
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EPT
