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On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a 
I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 22 2024 10:41 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support.
Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming.
Kespa players are individuals who played in the KESPA system on the teams and benefitted from the intense regiement of practice and having other great individuals to learn from, practice with, and discuss strategy with. Having that information and learned method of study and effort doesn't just disappear because you leave the KESPA system for a SC2 team or to play for yourself etc.
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On June 22 2024 10:57 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 10:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support. Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming. Kespa players are individuals who played in the KESPA system on the teams and benefitted from the intense regiement of practice and having other great individuals to learn from, practice with, and discuss strategy with. Having that information and learned method of study and effort doesn't just disappear because you leave the KESPA system for a SC2 team or to play for yourself etc.
"Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming." Where were the mentions about any qualifiers?? "Premiere" was the key word.
Agreed on the second part. The experience sticks, even if the structure is no longer there. These players understand what they need to improve, and how to get support from their peers, even with the teamhouse structure no longer there. I'm curious, however, if the top Koreans would benefit much from a return to the rigid teamhouse structure. I can't imagine that would be the case. This is a 1v1 game. There is only so much a team and coach can do to help. Serral and the other foreigners I'm sure get ideas from each other quite regularly. That doesn't require a formalized team.
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On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant.
The GOAT debate's whatever, it's been debated forever and will continue to be debated. I care more about the legacy of the game and esports more generally and it's honestly a little sad to see Proleague being discounted and minimized so much by some fans. I totally get that it was hard for Western audiences to watch, etc. But whatever one thinks about the scene today, a Western audience doesn't get to apply some revisionist history to Proleague. Like sure Serral can be the GOAT, most of his contemporaries think he is and most fans probably do too, some others make a good argument for Maru or Rogue, reasonable people can disagree. But when the convo has devolved into Proleague being an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars, things have gone off the rails. I wish people would just leave it be. It's already depressing that Proleague is gone.
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On June 21 2024 13:03 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 10:16 rwala wrote:On June 21 2024 09:00 WombaT wrote:On June 21 2024 08:03 rwala wrote:On June 21 2024 03:44 WombaT wrote:On June 21 2024 03:06 rwala wrote:On June 20 2024 07:51 Balnazza wrote:On June 19 2024 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On June 19 2024 08:40 Perceivere wrote:On June 19 2024 06:48 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
Honesty, I play Protoss, but this feels like an affront to the law of large numbers and Kolmogorov lol.
If you really want to, you can justify Maru being the GOAT simply by invoking his total number of premier wins, which is still a few over Serral (might be dethroned in a year or so ceteris paribus IIRC) provided you don't count Serral's euro-only wins - a bit harsh but hey. This is more intellectually honest than just performing arbitrary importance sampling by invoking a distribution SHOULD be perfect and zero-variance because you just said it would be (spoiler alert, empirical variance equal to 0 has by definition vanishing probability). Even if we completely discount Serral's regional wins (which is an amazingly dismissive and dishonest reach), he would still have 18 premieres, vs Maru's 17. I counted Nation Wars 2019 for Serral, because it was basically him vs the world (sorry, ZhuGe, you did contribute some, I know). Serral ESL SC2 Masters 2024 Spring IEM Katowice 2024 Master's Coliseum 7 Master's Coliseum 6 ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Summer TeamLiquid StarLeague 9 HomeStory Cup XXI IEM Katowice 2022 IEM Katowice 2022 NeXT 2021 S2 – SC2 Masters DH SC2 Masters 2021 Fall: Season Finals DH SC2 Masters 2020 Winter: Season Finals DH SC2 Masters 2020 Summer: Season Finals NationWars 2019 HomeStory Cup XX 2019 GSL vs the World HomeStory Cup XVIII 2018 WCS Global Finals 2018 GSL vs the World and Maru. StarsWar 11 2024 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2023 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2023 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2022 Global StarCraft II League Season 3: Code S DH SC2 Masters 2021: Last Chance 2022 King of Battles 2 DH SC2 Masters 2021 Winter: Season Finals King of Battles: KB International Championship 2020 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 3: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S World Electronic Sports Games 2017 2015 StarCraft II StarLeague Season 1: Main Event 2013 WCS Season 2 Korea OSL: Premier League The fact that Serral accumulated everything in two-thirds the amount of time as Maru is also significant. Then you should also count Maru's Proleague victory as he hard-carried with a 22-4 record While I wouldn't count teamleagues at all...c'mon, this is silly. Maru didn't "hard-carry" Jin Air. They literally had three players in the Top 10. It's not like they would have been deadlast without Maru. But that is exactly the case with Finlands NationWar-win. Without Serral, they don't make it out the Group Stage. Serral went 24-2 that season, the next best Finnish player is ZhuGeLiang with I believe 3 wins to however many losses. Serral literally invited some dudes to a side-seeing tour to Paris. I highly doubt anyone would say "yes, the rest of Jin Air was just there to watch Maru play, they were basically useless". What’s silly is to compare NationWars on any level to Proleague, though I suppose this is actually a great example of what kind of perspective emerges from outcome-oriented thinking. I think a lot of people don’t realize that Proleague was arguably the most prestigious and important competition to ever exist in SCII (or at least on par with GSL, SSL, etc.). These were the matches that everyone watched. And players often devoted most of their practice time and saved their best builds for their Proleague matches with the hopes of impressing the managers and corporate sponsors and trading up to a new, better contract. NationWars was like a cute, fun thing featuring a handful of top pros, but mostly a bunch of mid- and lower-level pros. Very cool, but honestly nothing that should be seriously considered in any GOAT convo. There are lots of things in here on which reasonable people can disagree. This is not one of them. Except they really didn’t. There’s a reason big chunks of the community don’t put a huge amount of weight on it. I don’t think they’re right necessarily, but equally I think one can overstress its importance too. It was a vestigial competition ported from a Brood War with a very different scene and audience, and it didn’t even run that long in SC2 either. Where BW was closed and domestic, and Proleague was massive within that game and individual and team competition were equivalently prestigious, SC2 was more open, international and individual tournaments were the main focus from day 1. This isnt to diminish it either, but it really doesn’t neatly fit into the wider scene structure and GOAT chat outside of players who played in it and can directly be compared either. You had to be in Korea, on an eligible team and active for a relatively short period of SC2’s existence to even play in it at all. If memory serves Mvp didn’t in SC2, and Serral certainly never did. Said as someone who did actively follow and enjoy Proleague, but I don’t think it enjoys nearly the cachet within the wider SC2 context as it did within Brood War. The main focus of who? I'm less interested in what Western audiences were focused on and cared about and more interested in the legacy of these competitions and Proleague 100% has a place within a SCII GOAT convo. It doesn't matter if Serral didn't play in Proleague, and it doesn't matter if it had more cache within the BW scene. I think it's important to educate people that Proleague wasn't some fun NationWars-esque showmatch kinda deal. SC2’s audience? For basically the entirety of the game’s history team league efforts have been an afterthought A separate tournament where it’s Bo1, to even compete in it one has to be in an eligible team and basically live in Korea, in a game where individual competition has always drawn in more viewers Why even factor it in at all? It’s daft, it only lasted a few years. This is a pretty shocking take from someone who claims to have followed and enjoyed Proleague. It was not an "afterthought" at all, and it's also not a coincidence that the game's decline coincided with the end of Proleague (I'm not making a cause-effect statement, but one could). Peak SCII competition was synonymous with Proleague. Far from lasting only a few years, I believe it was and still remains the longest-running esports show (I believe GSL will overtake it soon). I guess from a Western audience perspective maybe it was all about those early MLG tourneys or whatever, but in terms of legacy on the game and level of competition, Proleague will always be legendary. Again, I'm less interested in what a predominantly white, Western audience feels like watching and more interested in the quality of the competition itself. Although you muddied some of the already muddy stuff, you are largely correct. Teams paid players to represent them in Proleague. If they won Individual Leagues it was great as far as bringing attention to your team. But, in the end, if you had a Code S final coming up in a few days and your coaches wanted you to play in Proleague, you were preparing for Proleague.
Fair enough. A bit of an overreaction perhaps. It's more that every once in a while I legitimately wake up sad that Proleague is gone. The other thing I loved about it is the story lines. I wish I could watch with fresh eyes not knowing what happened.
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On June 07 2024 00:17 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 22:29 LostUsername100 wrote:On June 06 2024 22:22 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 06 2024 22:14 LostUsername100 wrote:
The copium will never end, trully it should have ended years ago, but SC2 split player pool, and all tournaments being a crapshoot because of event format make it so people can choose whatever noise they like the best and ignore the signal.
It does not matter if Maru wins EWC, again, you're just looking at noise, 6 years straight being the best is far far better than any other SC2 player has done, for fucks sake whats Maru's map winrate vs Serral? 20%?
Serral has been #1 for bettors since 2018, when people vote with their money they're a lot more reasonable, the moment another player dominates as hard and as long Serral has it will be reasonable to think about another goat.
You clearly have no idea how sportbooks determine odds. I have a pretty good idea actually, I think you're just coping. Here's the first link from google on how sportbooks odds work: https://www.forbes.com/betting/guide/how-sports-betting-odds-work/It's pretty much how I think it works overall, feel free to correct them. The point of line setting is to create a situation where the casino/sport bets receives max profit. As such, the odds are not a reflection of what is the most likely occurrence. If they were the line would never move. The line continues to move because the casino/sport books are reacting to the betting public and adjusting the line allows them to minimize loss by insuring people can't get the value they might have gotten by the initial line. Also, the fact that you googled the conceit and picked some god awful article that simplifies everything shows your knowledge on this subject. You just picked a general guide as to how lines are set and examples of them. Unfortunately, betting lines are not static and, while you can lock in your bet at a certain rate, the line is always moving, even during the game. Another funny thing is that if you do get ahead of the betting public and get incredible value on something, the casino/sportsbook will try to pay you off with a cash settlement rather than letting the bet ride. Casinos aren't there to access and accurately depict the quality of a team or player. They exist to make money.
Lmao sorry for reviving this post but this is too funny.
Yes the point of line setting is to make sure they don't lose money on bets, if Serral vs Maru has maru as a huge favorite and Serral is paying 10:1 they're going to lose money most likely, it's why Serral always pays less, if Biden starts polling much better odds will reflect that. For example Pinnacle the betting website soccer odds have something like 99.6% correlation with the actual results, they're trying to get the odds right to make money, and they hire people to make sure they get the best odds possible. If odds aren't set the most correct they can be right away it opens up huge possibility to make ez money.
The fact lines move, doesn't mean anything, they don't help your argument at all people using money to voice an opinion is much better than writing TL shit posts, the fact I double checked what I know about betting lines is also a completely moot point.
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Northern Ireland22929 Posts
On June 22 2024 13:54 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. The GOAT debate's whatever, it's been debated forever and will continue to be debated. I care more about the legacy of the game and esports more generally and it's honestly a little sad to see Proleague being discounted and minimized so much by some fans. I totally get that it was hard for Western audiences to watch, etc. But whatever one thinks about the scene today, a Western audience doesn't get to apply some revisionist history to Proleague. Like sure Serral can be the GOAT, most of his contemporaries think he is and most fans probably do too, some others make a good argument for Maru or Rogue, reasonable people can disagree. But when the convo has devolved into Proleague being an afterthought and equivalent to NationWars, things have gone off the rails. I wish people would just leave it be. It's already depressing that Proleague is gone.
I can only speak for myself but I’m just discounting it as a metric outside of those who can be directly compared by virtue of playing in it. Hard to weigh and worthless are two very different things
I used the word afterthought, but I said team competition generally in SC2’s entire history has largely played second fiddle to individual tournaments in audience interest. Which I think is broadly hard to argue with
That being said general sentiment isn’t necessarily mine, I did watch and value that competition but I think mistakes were made, and unfortunate circumstances also contributed to it not grabbing the imagination of some.
SC2 overall was becoming as fragmented as it ever was. We’ve Korean diaspora in NA and EU, we’ve some of the best Kespa players not entering international tournaments due to Proleague being prioritised. OG eSF teams that had existing followings were either gone entirely, or shadows of what they had been. The roster of EGTL just wasn’t good enough to compete at this level and that coulda drawn eyes.
Before and since broadly speaking you had the crème de la creme in Korea, and the best of the best coming together at international weekenders, which wasn’t always the case here. It became an awkward thing to follow for the non-hardcore fan.
Some of that was out of Kespa’s control, but I do think they could have done a better job in working with other orgs and avoiding clashes, it would be mutually beneficial. Or the other orgs do the same, I’m unsure who’s at ‘fault’ here. The wider scene gets exposed to these Kespa monsters more frequently and they advertise their high level competition, and these other tournaments have the best of the best playing
Maybe given a bit more time it would have happened anyway 
But I think Kespa just transplanted a model that worked in a very closed, primarily domestic system into another game years old that was very international, and very open and didn’t really adjust for it.
You saw it prior, with the hype that Mv fucking P shows up at an MLG, or MC becoming a beloved player with that bit of exposure internationally. And since, many of these same players really became big fan favourites even outside real hardcore fans. Folks loved to get to know someone like a Stats when he popped up to a Homestory Cup
It takes time for investment to happen, for storylines and rivalries to really cement, and overall keeping things quite closed off I really don’t think helped here.
Again I personally loved Proleague, part of why I to this day still consider Innovation perhaps the scariest player I’ve ever seen was when he was the first Kespa transfer to really explode, and I could watch him stomp people weekly.
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I will do a split answer: One for teamleagues in general, one for Maru in particular. Though I want to point out that I a)love teamleagues (I was the headadmin and -caster for the "last" WC3-Teamleague for years, sooo...) and b)since I startet this thing somewhat, I would neither count WTL, NationWars nor Proleague for the Premier Wins of any player.
Teamleagues and their worth for the GOAT-debate:
As always, I will dip into WC3 for a comparison. In WC3, we mostly had two big teamleagues: WC3L and NGL. Now of course, these are not exactly comparable to Proleague, since they were online (except for the finals) and vastly less professional compared to the very structured Proleague. But still, they were the biggest WC3-Teamleagues by far, so I think for the purpose of discussion the comparison is fair.
Now, without checking the sadly hard to find data nowadays, I would say that across those teamleagues (who used two entirely different systems btw) Grubby is easily the most accomplished player. I'm certain he holds the most wins in 1v1 and 2v2 in WC3L and has probably the highest winrate and most allkills in NGL. He also should hold the most WC3L trophies with 4K and MYM, though he actually never won NGL (well, technically he won it with MYM, but he joined before the finals and wasn't allowed to play in them, so that is a hardly counting trophy).
Now, the biggest contender for the title of GOAT in WC3 (if we ignore the Reforged-era with Happy for now) is Moon. Moon holds three NGL titles and multiple WC3L trophies...but especially for NGL I couldn't particularly say that he excelled in them? I think he didn't contribute much on all three of those finals MYM won, it was usually Lucifer doing the heavy lifting. In WC3L I think Moon was better, but not nearly as potent as Grubby (if someone has actual stats for that, please let me know, I would love it!)
Still, when people debate between Moon, Grubby and Sky as the GOAT (and some others), they rarely think about their accomplishments in Teamleagues. Even though these teamleagues constituted the basis of this game for years, the results in them were rarely appointed to the respective player. Moons lackluster performance in the last NGL Finals (I think he didn't win a map in two matches?) is basically forgotten, no one holds that against him. But the other way around, no one really mentions Grubbys approximate one trillion allkills in NGL either.
SC2 is the successor of BroodWar, but it got extremly influenced by WC3 in terms of Esports. Before the Kespa-"invasion" and the takeover of fresh blood, it was the WC3-scene in terms of players, casters and organizers who run the business of SC2. And in that regard, there was a massive push towards 1v1 competition. Teamleagues got relegated to a fun experience, like they were in WC3, but they weren't the massive center of attention like Proleage was in BW. It probably also didn't help that Proleague didn't switch immediately, but I can't speak to that.
Therefore, in my opinion, teamleague results are not "nothing", but as Wombat pointed out, they are extremly hard to weight. You would need an in-depth analysis of a lot of factors, which feels a bit unnecessary. Just as an example: What is more impressive? Going 9-0 in one Stage against only rookies and weaker players or 5-4 when you always have to play the opponents ace? Whatever you decide is more important, in the end the statistic will just show 9-0 for one player and 5-4 for the other...and you will easily say "Oh, Player A was the bomb there, Player B kinda sucked tho".
Maru in Proleague:
This will be a lot shorter (I hope). I think we can all agree that Maru is without a doubt one of the best and most consistent players in Proleague, right? According to Liquipedia, he reached the individual Top 10 three times in a row, a feat only beaten by herO (who got it four times). From a quick glimpse, the only other player with three Top10 finishes is Innovation, though I might be wrong on that. And while herO had more Top10 finishes, Maru finished in the Top 2 each of his three times.
So yes, Maru is one of the best Proleague-players ever. I can even see why people would pick him as the best. Though from there, I disagree with a few things. First of all, I don't like that Liquipedia/Proleague ranks only after won matches instead of Win-Loss-Difference, but okay. But what I take offense on is when people say "Maru had insane stats". Did he? I don't think so. Because you shouldn't confuse "the highest stats" with "insane stats".
What I mean with that? In the Bundesliga Season 2016/17, Aubameyang had 31 goals. The best of that season. But insane? No, he was just one goal better than Lewandowski. What's insane? Lewandowskis 41 goals in 20/21, beating a fifty year old record no one ever thought could be broken. That's insane.
Maru had some amazing stats. 22-4 in the last season, I tink only player to reach a 85% winrate in the Top 10. Insane...right? Yeah, about that...he wasn't even the best player in that season, since according to the metric used, Stats had more wins and was therefore better. And they both had the same WL-Difference (+18). So is that really an "insane season"? I would argue with no, since there is a player that did equally aswell as him, but never gets talked about much.
Now, of course you could say "but winrate is the much better metric!", but then Marus scores in the other two seasons suddenly drops him out of the Top 5 each time. And if you use the WL-Difference like me, Marus score equally weakens throughout time, since other players had better scores in that regard.
Again, I want to clarify: Don't think in absolutes. I'm not saying Maru is thrash, we're not on HLTV here. I put Maru easily in the Top 5 of all Proleague SC2-players and I have no quarrel if you pick him as No. 1. But just like with his solo-results pre-2018, please don't overhype him. He was the best, but it's not like he was hovering above everyone else. He was "just" the best...but not like "there is Maru and then there is nothing else". That's just not true and undersells great scores from a lot of other players.
Small addendum:
It would have been super-intesting though if Proleague would have stuck around. Of course then Maru might never had the insane GSL-results he has today, but who knows.
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Northern Ireland22929 Posts
On June 23 2024 00:36 Balnazza wrote:
I will do a split answer: One for teamleagues in general, one for Maru in particular. Though I want to point out that I a)love teamleagues (I was the headadmin and -caster for the "last" WC3-Teamleague for years, sooo...) and b)since I startet this thing somewhat, I would neither count WTL, NationWars nor Proleague for the Premier Wins of any player.
Teamleagues and their worth for the GOAT-debate:
As always, I will dip into WC3 for a comparison. In WC3, we mostly had two big teamleagues: WC3L and NGL. Now of course, these are not exactly comparable to Proleague, since they were online (except for the finals) and vastly less professional compared to the very structured Proleague. But still, they were the biggest WC3-Teamleagues by far, so I think for the purpose of discussion the comparison is fair.
Now, without checking the sadly hard to find data nowadays, I would say that across those teamleagues (who used two entirely different systems btw) Grubby is easily the most accomplished player. I'm certain he holds the most wins in 1v1 and 2v2 in WC3L and has probably the highest winrate and most allkills in NGL. He also should hold the most WC3L trophies with 4K and MYM, though he actually never won NGL (well, technically he won it with MYM, but he joined before the finals and wasn't allowed to play in them, so that is a hardly counting trophy).
Now, the biggest contender for the title of GOAT in WC3 (if we ignore the Reforged-era with Happy for now) is Moon. Moon holds three NGL titles and multiple WC3L trophies...but especially for NGL I couldn't particularly say that he excelled in them? I think he didn't contribute much on all three of those finals MYM won, it was usually Lucifer doing the heavy lifting. In WC3L I think Moon was better, but not nearly as potent as Grubby (if someone has actual stats for that, please let me know, I would love it!)
Still, when people debate between Moon, Grubby and Sky as the GOAT (and some others), they rarely think about their accomplishments in Teamleagues. Even though these teamleagues constituted the basis of this game for years, the results in them were rarely appointed to the respective player. Moons lackluster performance in the last NGL Finals (I think he didn't win a map in two matches?) is basically forgotten, no one holds that against him. But the other way around, no one really mentions Grubbys approximate one trillion allkills in NGL either.
SC2 is the successor of BroodWar, but it got extremly influenced by WC3 in terms of Esports. Before the Kespa-"invasion" and the takeover of fresh blood, it was the WC3-scene in terms of players, casters and organizers who run the business of SC2. And in that regard, there was a massive push towards 1v1 competition. Teamleagues got relegated to a fun experience, like they were in WC3, but they weren't the massive center of attention like Proleage was in BW. It probably also didn't help that Proleague didn't switch immediately, but I can't speak to that.
Therefore, in my opinion, teamleague results are not "nothing", but as Wombat pointed out, they are extremly hard to weight. You would need an in-depth analysis of a lot of factors, which feels a bit unnecessary. Just as an example: What is more impressive? Going 9-0 in one Stage against only rookies and weaker players or 5-4 when you always have to play the opponents ace? Whatever you decide is more important, in the end the statistic will just show 9-0 for one player and 5-4 for the other...and you will easily say "Oh, Player A was the bomb there, Player B kinda sucked tho".
Maru in Proleague:
This will be a lot shorter (I hope). I think we can all agree that Maru is without a doubt one of the best and most consistent players in Proleague, right? According to Liquipedia, he reached the individual Top 10 three times in a row, a feat only beaten by herO (who got it four times). From a quick glimpse, the only other player with three Top10 finishes is Innovation, though I might be wrong on that. And while herO had more Top10 finishes, Maru finished in the Top 2 each of his three times.
So yes, Maru is one of the best Proleague-players ever. I can even see why people would pick him as the best. Though from there, I disagree with a few things. First of all, I don't like that Liquipedia/Proleague ranks only after won matches instead of Win-Loss-Difference, but okay. But what I take offense on is when people say "Maru had insane stats". Did he? I don't think so. Because you shouldn't confuse "the highest stats" with "insane stats".
What I mean with that? In the Bundesliga Season 2016/17, Aubameyang had 31 goals. The best of that season. But insane? No, he was just one goal better than Lewandowski. What's insane? Lewandowskis 41 goals in 20/21, beating a fifty year old record no one ever thought could be broken. That's insane.
Maru had some amazing stats. 22-4 in the last season, I tink only player to reach a 85% winrate in the Top 10. Insane...right? Yeah, about that...he wasn't even the best player in that season, since according to the metric used, Stats had more wins and was therefore better. And they both had the same WL-Difference (+18). So is that really an "insane season"? I would argue with no, since there is a player that did equally aswell as him, but never gets talked about much.
Now, of course you could say "but winrate is the much better metric!", but then Marus scores in the other two seasons suddenly drops him out of the Top 5 each time. And if you use the WL-Difference like me, Marus score equally weakens throughout time, since other players had better scores in that regard.
Again, I want to clarify: Don't think in absolutes. I'm not saying Maru is thrash, we're not on HLTV here. I put Maru easily in the Top 5 of all Proleague SC2-players and I have no quarrel if you pick him as No. 1. But just like with his solo-results pre-2018, please don't overhype him. He was the best, but it's not like he was hovering above everyone else. He was "just" the best...but not like "there is Maru and then there is nothing else". That's just not true and undersells great scores from a lot of other players.
Small addendum:
It would have been super-intesting though if Proleague would have stuck around. Of course then Maru might never had the insane GSL-results he has today, but who knows.
A fine post if I may say so myself!
I wasn’t even aware there was a particularly big team league in WC3, and that’s as someone who loved WC3 and watched like 144p VoDs of the WCGs when the likes of Grubby and Moon did battle in WCGs
Team leagues in a 1v1 game just add a lot of variables if one is assessing individual greatness. Are you on a good team or carrying a worse one? Who are you matching with week on week?
When facing a monster ace player like a Maru or an Innovation teams are left with a decision to try and match them with a similar ace, or alternatively make the call to throw out a sacrificial lamb with a snipe build in that matchup and hope to win elsewhere
You could see a pretty big swing between idk a 8-6 record where you’re only playing the absolute best of other teams, and a 14-0 where other teams just played the percentages.
Or going to something like Nation League, Serral can only solo carry Finland because Finland are Finland. It’s still impressive, but nobody Korean could hope to replicate it because there’s equivalent depth in that nation. Even other nations like France or German have enough quality that if Serral was part of their rosters he wouldn’t be putting up those numbers
There’s a lot of additional context to plough though versus say, turning up at Katowice against the best and winning the thing. That’s quite simple to assess.
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On June 23 2024 01:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 00:36 Balnazza wrote:
I will do a split answer: One for teamleagues in general, one for Maru in particular. Though I want to point out that I a)love teamleagues (I was the headadmin and -caster for the "last" WC3-Teamleague for years, sooo...) and b)since I startet this thing somewhat, I would neither count WTL, NationWars nor Proleague for the Premier Wins of any player.
Teamleagues and their worth for the GOAT-debate:
As always, I will dip into WC3 for a comparison. In WC3, we mostly had two big teamleagues: WC3L and NGL. Now of course, these are not exactly comparable to Proleague, since they were online (except for the finals) and vastly less professional compared to the very structured Proleague. But still, they were the biggest WC3-Teamleagues by far, so I think for the purpose of discussion the comparison is fair.
Now, without checking the sadly hard to find data nowadays, I would say that across those teamleagues (who used two entirely different systems btw) Grubby is easily the most accomplished player. I'm certain he holds the most wins in 1v1 and 2v2 in WC3L and has probably the highest winrate and most allkills in NGL. He also should hold the most WC3L trophies with 4K and MYM, though he actually never won NGL (well, technically he won it with MYM, but he joined before the finals and wasn't allowed to play in them, so that is a hardly counting trophy).
Now, the biggest contender for the title of GOAT in WC3 (if we ignore the Reforged-era with Happy for now) is Moon. Moon holds three NGL titles and multiple WC3L trophies...but especially for NGL I couldn't particularly say that he excelled in them? I think he didn't contribute much on all three of those finals MYM won, it was usually Lucifer doing the heavy lifting. In WC3L I think Moon was better, but not nearly as potent as Grubby (if someone has actual stats for that, please let me know, I would love it!)
Still, when people debate between Moon, Grubby and Sky as the GOAT (and some others), they rarely think about their accomplishments in Teamleagues. Even though these teamleagues constituted the basis of this game for years, the results in them were rarely appointed to the respective player. Moons lackluster performance in the last NGL Finals (I think he didn't win a map in two matches?) is basically forgotten, no one holds that against him. But the other way around, no one really mentions Grubbys approximate one trillion allkills in NGL either.
SC2 is the successor of BroodWar, but it got extremly influenced by WC3 in terms of Esports. Before the Kespa-"invasion" and the takeover of fresh blood, it was the WC3-scene in terms of players, casters and organizers who run the business of SC2. And in that regard, there was a massive push towards 1v1 competition. Teamleagues got relegated to a fun experience, like they were in WC3, but they weren't the massive center of attention like Proleage was in BW. It probably also didn't help that Proleague didn't switch immediately, but I can't speak to that.
Therefore, in my opinion, teamleague results are not "nothing", but as Wombat pointed out, they are extremly hard to weight. You would need an in-depth analysis of a lot of factors, which feels a bit unnecessary. Just as an example: What is more impressive? Going 9-0 in one Stage against only rookies and weaker players or 5-4 when you always have to play the opponents ace? Whatever you decide is more important, in the end the statistic will just show 9-0 for one player and 5-4 for the other...and you will easily say "Oh, Player A was the bomb there, Player B kinda sucked tho".
Maru in Proleague:
This will be a lot shorter (I hope). I think we can all agree that Maru is without a doubt one of the best and most consistent players in Proleague, right? According to Liquipedia, he reached the individual Top 10 three times in a row, a feat only beaten by herO (who got it four times). From a quick glimpse, the only other player with three Top10 finishes is Innovation, though I might be wrong on that. And while herO had more Top10 finishes, Maru finished in the Top 2 each of his three times.
So yes, Maru is one of the best Proleague-players ever. I can even see why people would pick him as the best. Though from there, I disagree with a few things. First of all, I don't like that Liquipedia/Proleague ranks only after won matches instead of Win-Loss-Difference, but okay. But what I take offense on is when people say "Maru had insane stats". Did he? I don't think so. Because you shouldn't confuse "the highest stats" with "insane stats".
What I mean with that? In the Bundesliga Season 2016/17, Aubameyang had 31 goals. The best of that season. But insane? No, he was just one goal better than Lewandowski. What's insane? Lewandowskis 41 goals in 20/21, beating a fifty year old record no one ever thought could be broken. That's insane.
Maru had some amazing stats. 22-4 in the last season, I tink only player to reach a 85% winrate in the Top 10. Insane...right? Yeah, about that...he wasn't even the best player in that season, since according to the metric used, Stats had more wins and was therefore better. And they both had the same WL-Difference (+18). So is that really an "insane season"? I would argue with no, since there is a player that did equally aswell as him, but never gets talked about much.
Now, of course you could say "but winrate is the much better metric!", but then Marus scores in the other two seasons suddenly drops him out of the Top 5 each time. And if you use the WL-Difference like me, Marus score equally weakens throughout time, since other players had better scores in that regard.
Again, I want to clarify: Don't think in absolutes. I'm not saying Maru is thrash, we're not on HLTV here. I put Maru easily in the Top 5 of all Proleague SC2-players and I have no quarrel if you pick him as No. 1. But just like with his solo-results pre-2018, please don't overhype him. He was the best, but it's not like he was hovering above everyone else. He was "just" the best...but not like "there is Maru and then there is nothing else". That's just not true and undersells great scores from a lot of other players.
Small addendum:
It would have been super-intesting though if Proleague would have stuck around. Of course then Maru might never had the insane GSL-results he has today, but who knows. A fine post if I may say so myself! I wasn’t even aware there was a particularly big team league in WC3, and that’s as someone who loved WC3 and watched like 144p VoDs of the WCGs when the likes of Grubby and Moon did battle in WCGs
So you have never heard the legend of the "Drei Könige/Three Kings"? :O
But that is part of the issue: The teamleagues used to be kinda huge pre-2008 (I think NGL collapsed 2009, WC3L started to get smaller), especially when the korean scene collapsed and all top-koreans switched over to western teams, but they were always huge money-sinks. For example, when WE won NGL, they needed to win the tournament to even cover the travel-costs, otherwise the org would have lost quite a bit of money on it.
That's why eventually all teamleagues turned online and became smaller and smaller, while bigger tournaments were still around until the release of SC2. The financial aspect (especially with the financial crisis back then) was just too overwhelming and I think that translated to SC2 aswell.
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When you say kespa players, I'm thinking of players that came during the kespa switch. So I wouldn't include Life and Maru there.
Players might say that all that matters is proleague and while this is mostly the case, I also imagine that this stems from a very korean mentality, if a player chooses to further his own career instead of focusing on the tleague, you would be seen of as selfish. In this team environment everything is about team effort, but I don't think that this means that all-killing a team is bigger than winning a tournament in another format, though all-killing a team must be a very electric experience and would sit strong in your memory as well.
It's so bothersome to measure the weight of proleague wins, with how many factors there are and the format is so very different that it is much easier to exclude, but excluding it all-together is also lazy, in that way it's the same as Serral's hsc and WCS wins. The one is an invitational so it is inherently unfair, and the other had the asterix of missing almost all of the most relevant players.
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On June 22 2024 11:41 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 10:57 NoobSkills wrote:On June 22 2024 10:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support. Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming. Kespa players are individuals who played in the KESPA system on the teams and benefitted from the intense regiement of practice and having other great individuals to learn from, practice with, and discuss strategy with. Having that information and learned method of study and effort doesn't just disappear because you leave the KESPA system for a SC2 team or to play for yourself etc. "Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming." Where were the mentions about any qualifiers?? "Premiere" was the key word. Agreed on the second part. The experience sticks, even if the structure is no longer there. These players understand what they need to improve, and how to get support from their peers, even with the teamhouse structure no longer there. I'm curious, however, if the top Koreans would benefit much from a return to the rigid teamhouse structure. I can't imagine that would be the case. This is a 1v1 game. There is only so much a team and coach can do to help. Serral and the other foreigners I'm sure get ideas from each other quite regularly. That doesn't require a formalized team.
It looked to me like you were attempting to eliminate certain KESPA players from the convo, when you should just mostly bunch them together and call it a day.
As for my opinion on KESPA, proleague, KESPA teams, and teamhouses. I promise you if that entire system was still in place and the money still mattered as much as it used to, that the history of SC2 would be DRASTICALLY different. While you're right that it is a 1v1 game and only so much information is out there, being immersed in what you're doing far more time than your opponents is a massive benefit unless you're so individually naturally talented, but even those types of people can be beaten. TheVIPER in AOE2 was the ONLY player who had zero obligations outside of AOE2 and was playing it professionally for most of his career, so he dominated. KOBE was grinding out insane hours even in the off season again dominated. Astralis on average were putting in an extra 20 hours a week in CSGO when they were running through everyone. And the KESPA system kept a lot of people focused and on target, and while I can admit the conditions were poor and far too extreme that skill level is unmatched by anything seen in SC2 even when looking at the very best of SC2 players.
There weren't casuals getting into the OSL/MSL. Sure there were weaker players, but not unpracticed players relying on past skill/knowledge to carry them through. Sure it might have happened here and there, but that was the exception not the rule. Nobody could simply watch streams or hit ladders to discern differences in builds and how to better read opponents. You weren't showing up to team league unpracticed. I just think if that degree of KESPA team house training were implemented into SC2's history the results would surprise everyone.
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Northern Ireland22929 Posts
On June 23 2024 09:41 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2024 11:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 10:57 NoobSkills wrote:On June 22 2024 10:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support. Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming. Kespa players are individuals who played in the KESPA system on the teams and benefitted from the intense regiement of practice and having other great individuals to learn from, practice with, and discuss strategy with. Having that information and learned method of study and effort doesn't just disappear because you leave the KESPA system for a SC2 team or to play for yourself etc. "Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming." Where were the mentions about any qualifiers?? "Premiere" was the key word. Agreed on the second part. The experience sticks, even if the structure is no longer there. These players understand what they need to improve, and how to get support from their peers, even with the teamhouse structure no longer there. I'm curious, however, if the top Koreans would benefit much from a return to the rigid teamhouse structure. I can't imagine that would be the case. This is a 1v1 game. There is only so much a team and coach can do to help. Serral and the other foreigners I'm sure get ideas from each other quite regularly. That doesn't require a formalized team. It looked to me like you were attempting to eliminate certain KESPA players from the convo, when you should just mostly bunch them together and call it a day. As for my opinion on KESPA, proleague, KESPA teams, and teamhouses. I promise you if that entire system was still in place and the money still mattered as much as it used to, that the history of SC2 would be DRASTICALLY different. While you're right that it is a 1v1 game and only so much information is out there, being immersed in what you're doing far more time than your opponents is a massive benefit unless you're so individually naturally talented, but even those types of people can be beaten. TheVIPER in AOE2 was the ONLY player who had zero obligations outside of AOE2 and was playing it professionally for most of his career, so he dominated. KOBE was grinding out insane hours even in the off season again dominated. Astralis on average were putting in an extra 20 hours a week in CSGO when they were running through everyone. And the KESPA system kept a lot of people focused and on target, and while I can admit the conditions were poor and far too extreme that skill level is unmatched by anything seen in SC2 even when looking at the very best of SC2 players. There weren't casuals getting into the OSL/MSL. Sure there were weaker players, but not unpracticed players relying on past skill/knowledge to carry them through. Sure it might have happened here and there, but that was the exception not the rule. Nobody could simply watch streams or hit ladders to discern differences in builds and how to better read opponents. You weren't showing up to team league unpracticed. I just think if that degree of KESPA team house training were implemented into SC2's history the results would surprise everyone.
Would it be for the better?
Great you have a scene where players hothoused to play SC2 might be slightly better at the game.
On the flipside you have a scene where someone working on their own can hit the heights, like Serral has.
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Slightly? It was such an undeniable CHASM of disparity between the KR scene and anywhere else in the world when SC2 was fully invested in by KR. The difference was they were legitimately professional, like an athlete would be. Training was intense.
The game is by all means a niche genre/esport now, where it's possible to be good/the best without "professional" level training.
Overall the game is not better than it used to be as an esport, but it's still SC and I'll love it forever.
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On June 23 2024 10:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 09:41 NoobSkills wrote:On June 22 2024 11:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 10:57 NoobSkills wrote:On June 22 2024 10:41 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 09:58 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 22 2024 09:13 Perceivere wrote:On June 22 2024 04:18 Waxangel wrote:
The one discounting Proleague are crazy; it's probably actually being underrated in the miz GOAT series.
During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams (the most notable exceptions being Life, Maru, and INnoVation for single years), and Proleague was clearly their primary focus. KeSPA players were only able to participate in international tournaments on a limited basis, and they generally won and/or took the top podium spots when they did (Life was the biggest outlier until he joined KT Rolster in 2015).
I've avoided the GOAT debate threads in general but that take is so bad it might be bannable for just being so wrong and ignorant. "During 2014-2016, the majority of top players were in KeSPA teams" I'm looking back at the Aligulac lists between 2014-2016, and the vast, vast majority of the top players on those lists were the same top players after Kespa pulled out. The only Kespa players that touched the top10 were Hydra and Rain, and even then only for short periods. Between 2014-2015, San was there for a little while. Phantasy, Soulkey, and Flash were in the top20-30. Flash, Violet, Leenock, and Soulkey were in the top10 for a few months, but not after 2014. I see no evidence indicating that the "majority of top players were" from Kespa between 2014-2016. Quite the contrary—only a tiny sprinkle, and only for short periods. 1v1 tournament placements-wise, the top rankers were also mostly non-Kespa, with the top3 almost always non-Kespa, post-2014. The results are pretty fascinating. They show that Kespa players had a very strong showing, until around late-2013, and then the Kespa players really began to fall behind quickly, actually. From that point on, it was very, very clear that the top SC2 players were non-Kespa. Both Aligulac and tournament results reflect this. I'm not sure what made you see it otherwise. Actually, looking back at these lists somewhat confirms my ideas regarding mental development. The Kespa players ranked really high pre-2013, and then not so high afterward. The Kespa players were also on average a few years older. The Kespa players had an age and mental developmental advantage for a couple years, until the non-Kespa youngins got into their mid-teens, and quickly caught up, and outpaced the older players. These younger, non-Kespa players didn't have one foot in SC2, and one in BW; they were more focused on SC2. They also had SC2's mechanics/muscle memory more deeply ingrained in their adolescent minds. So, it makes perfect sense that they would be disadvantaged early on, but would eventually outperform the much older Kespa players. Note too that many of the tournament winners pre-2014 were players who were also relatively old. Fruitdealer and MvP, for example. Life may have been the biggest exception to the rule, but Life also didn't really begin to show results until around age 15. Maru was 14 at the time. Maru did extremely well for being at such early age. One year makes a big difference around this developmental period. Those were close series he had with Life. If he were a year or two older, perhaps he would've won. KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Zest 3x, Classic 2x, INnoVation x2, Maru, herO, Life (he won WCS 2014 on StarTale which became a KeSPA team in 2015 and won S1 of Code S 2015 on KT), Dark, Solar, sOs 2x Former KeSPA players who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 Rain (Rain was banned from joining another KeSPA team after leaving SKT) Players who were never affiliated with KeSPA teams who won Code S/SSL/WCS WC/IEM WC from 2014-2016 ByuN 2x (both of which he won in the last four odd months of 2016) Yep, looks like the whole KeSPA team thing was overrated... AKA, you're a I thought it was clear we were comparing players who either retired, or returned to BW, to players who stayed with SC2. "Kespa players" in my mind were players who weren't only in Kespa teams, but also those who left SC2 after Kespa removed support. Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming. Kespa players are individuals who played in the KESPA system on the teams and benefitted from the intense regiement of practice and having other great individuals to learn from, practice with, and discuss strategy with. Having that information and learned method of study and effort doesn't just disappear because you leave the KESPA system for a SC2 team or to play for yourself etc. "Throwing in random qualifiers to try and make your point is a bit underwhelming." Where were the mentions about any qualifiers?? "Premiere" was the key word. Agreed on the second part. The experience sticks, even if the structure is no longer there. These players understand what they need to improve, and how to get support from their peers, even with the teamhouse structure no longer there. I'm curious, however, if the top Koreans would benefit much from a return to the rigid teamhouse structure. I can't imagine that would be the case. This is a 1v1 game. There is only so much a team and coach can do to help. Serral and the other foreigners I'm sure get ideas from each other quite regularly. That doesn't require a formalized team. It looked to me like you were attempting to eliminate certain KESPA players from the convo, when you should just mostly bunch them together and call it a day. As for my opinion on KESPA, proleague, KESPA teams, and teamhouses. I promise you if that entire system was still in place and the money still mattered as much as it used to, that the history of SC2 would be DRASTICALLY different. While you're right that it is a 1v1 game and only so much information is out there, being immersed in what you're doing far more time than your opponents is a massive benefit unless you're so individually naturally talented, but even those types of people can be beaten. TheVIPER in AOE2 was the ONLY player who had zero obligations outside of AOE2 and was playing it professionally for most of his career, so he dominated. KOBE was grinding out insane hours even in the off season again dominated. Astralis on average were putting in an extra 20 hours a week in CSGO when they were running through everyone. And the KESPA system kept a lot of people focused and on target, and while I can admit the conditions were poor and far too extreme that skill level is unmatched by anything seen in SC2 even when looking at the very best of SC2 players. There weren't casuals getting into the OSL/MSL. Sure there were weaker players, but not unpracticed players relying on past skill/knowledge to carry them through. Sure it might have happened here and there, but that was the exception not the rule. Nobody could simply watch streams or hit ladders to discern differences in builds and how to better read opponents. You weren't showing up to team league unpracticed. I just think if that degree of KESPA team house training were implemented into SC2's history the results would surprise everyone. Would it be for the better? Great you have a scene where players hothoused to play SC2 might be slightly better at the game. On the flipside you have a scene where someone working on their own can hit the heights, like Serral has.
Would what be better? Players living conditions and freedom? No. The overall level of gameplay and expected high level performance of individuals? For sure.
You say slightly, but being immersed in what you're doing 24/7, around other people who are just as immersed, and getting to practice directly against that high level of play 24/7 would be FAR better than anything we've seen so far. Hell, we've seen it in broodwar since the decay of KESPA where the skill level is down. Sure, some pros take it super seriously, grind all the time, and keep themselves immersed, but that isn't the rule anymore like it used to be.
As for the heights that serral or maru or rogue have hit. How do you know they're anywhere near the maximum potential given the course of SC2 without any sort of comparison? There were no real team houses for the most part of that caliber and the team part of the game was minimal. The KESPA pros who were talented RTS players, didn't feel like switching to a new game. Then they were semi-forced to. Then they switched back. But during none of that time period was that talent truly immersed in the scene like they were in broodwar. It isn't like Flash was playing games all day everyday in the KT team house and with his BY.Clan flushing out the meta and mechanics of SC2. This btw isn't to say that it would have been solely flash, but every top level RTS pro in korea with top tier coaches and all consistently living in the same environment mostly.
I just don't buy into most anyone who thinks we're seeing anywhere near perfect level performances out of a lot of people in esports currently. It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though. But with how the money works nowadays and the lack of professionalism and drive a lot of players have nobody is pushing the top to be the best, they just have to be better than those who coast to reach the RO4 or maybe RO8. And honestly I cannot really blame them either who wants to put in an extra 20/30/40 hours per week just for a CHANCE of MAYBE winning an event when you can collect your salary and lesser prize pool with far less dedication.
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It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh
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On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:Show nested quote +
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh
If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional.
This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS.
And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent.
And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead.
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On June 23 2024 11:59 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2024 11:30 sc2turtlepants wrote:
It is fine though that they don't want to grind and just want to coast though.
This is an insane level of disrespect you're throwing at people reaching for the highest level of skill we've ever seen in pursuit of their livelihoods. smh If you think everyone in the top 32 or 64 of SC2 are all playing the same amount of hours and are all on the same exact grind you're simply delusional. This is not the "highest level of skill" even in terms of RTS. And while some at the top are putting in that effort or at least nearly as much effort, they're still nowhere near the perfection that was the KESPA era. It is different when EVERY single practice match you're playing is high level, where the RO64 or deep event players still were extraordinarily masterful, where you were under constant threat during team leagues. Far different than sitting at home or chilling at a PC cafe playing ladder matches where you don't control the opponent. And yes, coasting is an accurate description. Good enough to secure a salary from a team and chill out in all the bonus tournaments and online events to sustain yourself, but no need to dedicate yourself to perfection because coasting sustains you, unlike before where you could grind and still never get ahead.
And yet, players who weren't in teamhouses and Proleague could still compete with most of the top-dogs - namely the koreans who came over into the west. BlizzCon is full of wins against the best Kespa-koreans, even though they eventually always took the trophy home.
I can give you another take on your view: A lot of koreans "coasted by" (which I will agree with my foreposter, that is just disrespectful) because Proleague offered them money, even though they didn't impact GSL much, nor did they have the "dedication" to go west and prove themselves.
When Proleague was gone, you either were good enough to get money or you had to leave. Secure money can people make very complacent. I remember back in the day when the discussion was that the german EPS awards too much money, so german players never seemed to care enough to prove themselves internationally. Same can be applied to Proleague - not that I would personally, but that seems to be your take?
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United States1755 Posts
On June 22 2024 13:59 rwala wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2024 13:03 Mizenhauer wrote:On June 21 2024 10:16 rwala wrote:On June 21 2024 09:00 WombaT wrote:On June 21 2024 08:03 rwala wrote:On June 21 2024 03:44 WombaT wrote:On June 21 2024 03:06 rwala wrote:On June 20 2024 07:51 Balnazza wrote:On June 19 2024 14:53 Charoisaur wrote:On June 19 2024 08:40 Perceivere wrote:[quote] Even if we completely discount Serral's regional wins (which is an amazingly dismissive and dishonest reach), he would still have 18 premieres, vs Maru's 17. I counted Nation Wars 2019 for Serral, because it was basically him vs the world (sorry, ZhuGe, you did contribute some, I know). Serral ESL SC2 Masters 2024 Spring IEM Katowice 2024 Master's Coliseum 7 Master's Coliseum 6 ESL SC2 Masters 2023 Summer TeamLiquid StarLeague 9 HomeStory Cup XXI IEM Katowice 2022 IEM Katowice 2022 NeXT 2021 S2 – SC2 Masters DH SC2 Masters 2021 Fall: Season Finals DH SC2 Masters 2020 Winter: Season Finals DH SC2 Masters 2020 Summer: Season Finals NationWars 2019 HomeStory Cup XX 2019 GSL vs the World HomeStory Cup XVIII 2018 WCS Global Finals 2018 GSL vs the World and Maru. StarsWar 11 2024 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2023 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2023 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2022 Global StarCraft II League Season 3: Code S DH SC2 Masters 2021: Last Chance 2022 King of Battles 2 DH SC2 Masters 2021 Winter: Season Finals King of Battles: KB International Championship 2020 AfreecaTV GSL Super Tournament 1 2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 3: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 2: Code S 2018 Global StarCraft II League Season 1: Code S World Electronic Sports Games 2017 2015 StarCraft II StarLeague Season 1: Main Event 2013 WCS Season 2 Korea OSL: Premier League The fact that Serral accumulated everything in two-thirds the amount of time as Maru is also significant. Then you should also count Maru's Proleague victory as he hard-carried with a 22-4 record While I wouldn't count teamleagues at all...c'mon, this is silly. Maru didn't "hard-carry" Jin Air. They literally had three players in the Top 10. It's not like they would have been deadlast without Maru. But that is exactly the case with Finlands NationWar-win. Without Serral, they don't make it out the Group Stage. Serral went 24-2 that season, the next best Finnish player is ZhuGeLiang with I believe 3 wins to however many losses. Serral literally invited some dudes to a side-seeing tour to Paris. I highly doubt anyone would say "yes, the rest of Jin Air was just there to watch Maru play, they were basically useless". What’s silly is to compare NationWars on any level to Proleague, though I suppose this is actually a great example of what kind of perspective emerges from outcome-oriented thinking. I think a lot of people don’t realize that Proleague was arguably the most prestigious and important competition to ever exist in SCII (or at least on par with GSL, SSL, etc.). These were the matches that everyone watched. And players often devoted most of their practice time and saved their best builds for their Proleague matches with the hopes of impressing the managers and corporate sponsors and trading up to a new, better contract. NationWars was like a cute, fun thing featuring a handful of top pros, but mostly a bunch of mid- and lower-level pros. Very cool, but honestly nothing that should be seriously considered in any GOAT convo. There are lots of things in here on which reasonable people can disagree. This is not one of them. Except they really didn’t. There’s a reason big chunks of the community don’t put a huge amount of weight on it. I don’t think they’re right necessarily, but equally I think one can overstress its importance too. It was a vestigial competition ported from a Brood War with a very different scene and audience, and it didn’t even run that long in SC2 either. Where BW was closed and domestic, and Proleague was massive within that game and individual and team competition were equivalently prestigious, SC2 was more open, international and individual tournaments were the main focus from day 1. This isnt to diminish it either, but it really doesn’t neatly fit into the wider scene structure and GOAT chat outside of players who played in it and can directly be compared either. You had to be in Korea, on an eligible team and active for a relatively short period of SC2’s existence to even play in it at all. If memory serves Mvp didn’t in SC2, and Serral certainly never did. Said as someone who did actively follow and enjoy Proleague, but I don’t think it enjoys nearly the cachet within the wider SC2 context as it did within Brood War. The main focus of who? I'm less interested in what Western audiences were focused on and cared about and more interested in the legacy of these competitions and Proleague 100% has a place within a SCII GOAT convo. It doesn't matter if Serral didn't play in Proleague, and it doesn't matter if it had more cache within the BW scene. I think it's important to educate people that Proleague wasn't some fun NationWars-esque showmatch kinda deal. SC2’s audience? For basically the entirety of the game’s history team league efforts have been an afterthought A separate tournament where it’s Bo1, to even compete in it one has to be in an eligible team and basically live in Korea, in a game where individual competition has always drawn in more viewers Why even factor it in at all? It’s daft, it only lasted a few years. This is a pretty shocking take from someone who claims to have followed and enjoyed Proleague. It was not an "afterthought" at all, and it's also not a coincidence that the game's decline coincided with the end of Proleague (I'm not making a cause-effect statement, but one could). Peak SCII competition was synonymous with Proleague. Far from lasting only a few years, I believe it was and still remains the longest-running esports show (I believe GSL will overtake it soon). I guess from a Western audience perspective maybe it was all about those early MLG tourneys or whatever, but in terms of legacy on the game and level of competition, Proleague will always be legendary. Again, I'm less interested in what a predominantly white, Western audience feels like watching and more interested in the quality of the competition itself. Although you muddied some of the already muddy stuff, you are largely correct. Teams paid players to represent them in Proleague. If they won Individual Leagues it was great as far as bringing attention to your team. But, in the end, if you had a Code S final coming up in a few days and your coaches wanted you to play in Proleague, you were preparing for Proleague. Fair enough. A bit of an overreaction perhaps. It's more that every once in a while I legitimately wake up sad that Proleague is gone. The other thing I loved about it is the story lines. I wish I could watch with fresh eyes not knowing what happened.
It's all good, man. We all miss Proleague. It was a lot more fun to be a fan of a team back then. You might see your favorite player play a couple of matches in Code S each season, but you knew your favorite team would be playing week in and week out.
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EPT
