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Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Northern Ireland22952 Posts
On February 15 2024 19:39 micronesia wrote:
I didn't see anybody mention it yet, but the special election to replace George Santos in New York completed on Tuesday, with the Democrats flipping the seat. I fully expected Suozzi to win, but the snow they had on Tuesday probably also helped since voting early seems to be discouraged by the GOP but not the democrats. Still, it was closer than it probably should have been judging from the campaign Pilip was running...
The republican margin in the House is even smaller now.
You love to see it.
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On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:On February 14 2024 17:17 WombaT wrote:On February 14 2024 15:49 Fleetfeet wrote:
I do love the theory that GH is some masked V-for-vendetta character frustratedly posting on the internet waiting for people to DM him saying "You know what, you're right, we SHOULD blow up the parliament building. How do we do that?". That's a funny image to me, and kinda sorta connected to reality? Not that I think GH wants to blow something up, but that V lives in a dystopian world where the a fascist authoritarian government has taken over and the idea of watching V have conversations on MSN messenger with people being like "The government is fascist and authoritarian, we need to do something" and people responding with "Nah it's not thaaat bad we can still vote" seems like a good skit.
I think that GH believes the US is broken beyond repair, and most people here don't. Most people believe it is broken, yes, but not beyond repair. Most of the disconnect comes from GH trying different angles to demonstrate that the US is broken beyond repair but people not being willing to accept that. He's listed getting people to accept that it's broken beyond repair as step one towards revolution, and this vote/not vote does feel like it's still just pushing people towards that idea.
(For clarity, I do not think the US is currently fascist and authoritarian.) Haha, the climax of V for Vendetta 2 Electric Boogoloo is just some really intensely shot, 20 minute long fight scene consisting of cutting back and forth between our hero GH and whoever the villain is as they exchange heated posts on TL. Done in the style of every single 90s ‘I’m in.’ hacking scenes. In a more serious but much, much less fun note I must say I share a lot of that fatalism, capitalism is as entrenched as it’s ever been and rather the root of many an issue, even as its flaws are biting pretty hard. Without going into TLDR territory, those flaws are nothing new, but for a pretty sizeable chunk of time ‘a rising tide raises all boats’ was somewhat true. It’s certainly not the case currently, and few parties anywhere, to my knowledge actually have policies, even on paper to deal with these issues, even within a redistributive capitalist framework, never mind the dreaded s word. Unless you have medical issues that your particular healthcare system is fucking you on, you’re an actively persecuted minority or you’re fuck off rich I’d wager that housing prices continuing on a decades-long trajectory of far outstripping both inflation and real wage increases is likely the absolute single most impactful issue of the day for almost everyone. Well, it suits landlords from the individual to the culture capital level I guess, but everyone else. And yet, remarkably few policy pushes here, you might get the odd house building pledge but that’s kind of a band aid as solutions go. There’ll be a few more houses going, it’s not going to meaningfully push prices back down. People may disagree with my assertion, but I’m pretty confident in it. A system is pretty fundamentally broken if it doesn’t even attempt to tackle what (I believe) is probably the single biggest socioeconomic issue of our time, at least in terms of a lived experience and quality of life. The other biggest issue, which is less immediately apparent, nor important for many is of course climate change, which were also doing a pretty shit job at dealing with. If not quite beyond repair, it does somewhat intrigue me as to why America in particular is fucked in an almost unique manner, and has problems unique to it. With the giant caveat that of course there were many, many issues regarding minorities, the US used to be ahead, or at least on par with European countries, Canada etc in quite a few respects. Much of it idealised of course, but it used to be a country many looked at as aspirational, to be envied even. But over the decades it’s sort of drifted on its own, particular trajectory of dysfunction. I’m curious as to why this is, and really can’t put a finger on it. Other countries have huge cultural differences between regions, or even households. Others have flawed political structures, ethnic tensions or any number of other commonalities, but yet the US somehow ends up with a lot of quirks that make it a special idiosyncratic snowflake amongst vaguely comparable countries. Bit of a ramble the last part, but it’s a question that continually exercises me and I’ve spent quite a bit pondering, I’m interested to hear what y’all think on that particular topic. A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience?
Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians.
Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk?
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On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:On February 14 2024 17:17 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Haha, the climax of V for Vendetta 2 Electric Boogoloo is just some really intensely shot, 20 minute long fight scene consisting of cutting back and forth between our hero GH and whoever the villain is as they exchange heated posts on TL. Done in the style of every single 90s ‘I’m in.’ hacking scenes.
In a more serious but much, much less fun note I must say I share a lot of that fatalism, capitalism is as entrenched as it’s ever been and rather the root of many an issue, even as its flaws are biting pretty hard. Without going into TLDR territory, those flaws are nothing new, but for a pretty sizeable chunk of time ‘a rising tide raises all boats’ was somewhat true. It’s certainly not the case currently, and few parties anywhere, to my knowledge actually have policies, even on paper to deal with these issues, even within a redistributive capitalist framework, never mind the dreaded s word.
Unless you have medical issues that your particular healthcare system is fucking you on, you’re an actively persecuted minority or you’re fuck off rich I’d wager that housing prices continuing on a decades-long trajectory of far outstripping both inflation and real wage increases is likely the absolute single most impactful issue of the day for almost everyone. Well, it suits landlords from the individual to the culture capital level I guess, but everyone else. And yet, remarkably few policy pushes here, you might get the odd house building pledge but that’s kind of a band aid as solutions go. There’ll be a few more houses going, it’s not going to meaningfully push prices back down.
People may disagree with my assertion, but I’m pretty confident in it. A system is pretty fundamentally broken if it doesn’t even attempt to tackle what (I believe) is probably the single biggest socioeconomic issue of our time, at least in terms of a lived experience and quality of life. The other biggest issue, which is less immediately apparent, nor important for many is of course climate change, which were also doing a pretty shit job at dealing with.
If not quite beyond repair, it does somewhat intrigue me as to why America in particular is fucked in an almost unique manner, and has problems unique to it.
With the giant caveat that of course there were many, many issues regarding minorities, the US used to be ahead, or at least on par with European countries, Canada etc in quite a few respects. Much of it idealised of course, but it used to be a country many looked at as aspirational, to be envied even. But over the decades it’s sort of drifted on its own, particular trajectory of dysfunction.
I’m curious as to why this is, and really can’t put a finger on it. Other countries have huge cultural differences between regions, or even households. Others have flawed political structures, ethnic tensions or any number of other commonalities, but yet the US somehow ends up with a lot of quirks that make it a special idiosyncratic snowflake amongst vaguely comparable countries.
Bit of a ramble the last part, but it’s a question that continually exercises me and I’ve spent quite a bit pondering, I’m interested to hear what y’all think on that particular topic. A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk?
Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples:
Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10]
Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v
The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected.
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On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:On February 14 2024 17:17 WombaT wrote:On February 14 2024 15:49 Fleetfeet wrote:
I do love the theory that GH is some masked V-for-vendetta character frustratedly posting on the internet waiting for people to DM him saying "You know what, you're right, we SHOULD blow up the parliament building. How do we do that?". That's a funny image to me, and kinda sorta connected to reality? Not that I think GH wants to blow something up, but that V lives in a dystopian world where the a fascist authoritarian government has taken over and the idea of watching V have conversations on MSN messenger with people being like "The government is fascist and authoritarian, we need to do something" and people responding with "Nah it's not thaaat bad we can still vote" seems like a good skit.
I think that GH believes the US is broken beyond repair, and most people here don't. Most people believe it is broken, yes, but not beyond repair. Most of the disconnect comes from GH trying different angles to demonstrate that the US is broken beyond repair but people not being willing to accept that. He's listed getting people to accept that it's broken beyond repair as step one towards revolution, and this vote/not vote does feel like it's still just pushing people towards that idea.
(For clarity, I do not think the US is currently fascist and authoritarian.) Haha, the climax of V for Vendetta 2 Electric Boogoloo is just some really intensely shot, 20 minute long fight scene consisting of cutting back and forth between our hero GH and whoever the villain is as they exchange heated posts on TL. Done in the style of every single 90s ‘I’m in.’ hacking scenes. In a more serious but much, much less fun note I must say I share a lot of that fatalism, capitalism is as entrenched as it’s ever been and rather the root of many an issue, even as its flaws are biting pretty hard. Without going into TLDR territory, those flaws are nothing new, but for a pretty sizeable chunk of time ‘a rising tide raises all boats’ was somewhat true. It’s certainly not the case currently, and few parties anywhere, to my knowledge actually have policies, even on paper to deal with these issues, even within a redistributive capitalist framework, never mind the dreaded s word. Unless you have medical issues that your particular healthcare system is fucking you on, you’re an actively persecuted minority or you’re fuck off rich I’d wager that housing prices continuing on a decades-long trajectory of far outstripping both inflation and real wage increases is likely the absolute single most impactful issue of the day for almost everyone. Well, it suits landlords from the individual to the culture capital level I guess, but everyone else. And yet, remarkably few policy pushes here, you might get the odd house building pledge but that’s kind of a band aid as solutions go. There’ll be a few more houses going, it’s not going to meaningfully push prices back down. People may disagree with my assertion, but I’m pretty confident in it. A system is pretty fundamentally broken if it doesn’t even attempt to tackle what (I believe) is probably the single biggest socioeconomic issue of our time, at least in terms of a lived experience and quality of life. The other biggest issue, which is less immediately apparent, nor important for many is of course climate change, which were also doing a pretty shit job at dealing with. If not quite beyond repair, it does somewhat intrigue me as to why America in particular is fucked in an almost unique manner, and has problems unique to it. With the giant caveat that of course there were many, many issues regarding minorities, the US used to be ahead, or at least on par with European countries, Canada etc in quite a few respects. Much of it idealised of course, but it used to be a country many looked at as aspirational, to be envied even. But over the decades it’s sort of drifted on its own, particular trajectory of dysfunction. I’m curious as to why this is, and really can’t put a finger on it. Other countries have huge cultural differences between regions, or even households. Others have flawed political structures, ethnic tensions or any number of other commonalities, but yet the US somehow ends up with a lot of quirks that make it a special idiosyncratic snowflake amongst vaguely comparable countries. Bit of a ramble the last part, but it’s a question that continually exercises me and I’ve spent quite a bit pondering, I’m interested to hear what y’all think on that particular topic. A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned.
Further investigation showed the Pulse shooting was almost certainly not an anti-gay attack, it seems that the shooter chose the place almost at random after eliminating his original target from consideration.
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On February 15 2024 23:15 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:On February 14 2024 17:17 WombaT wrote:On February 14 2024 15:49 Fleetfeet wrote:
I do love the theory that GH is some masked V-for-vendetta character frustratedly posting on the internet waiting for people to DM him saying "You know what, you're right, we SHOULD blow up the parliament building. How do we do that?". That's a funny image to me, and kinda sorta connected to reality? Not that I think GH wants to blow something up, but that V lives in a dystopian world where the a fascist authoritarian government has taken over and the idea of watching V have conversations on MSN messenger with people being like "The government is fascist and authoritarian, we need to do something" and people responding with "Nah it's not thaaat bad we can still vote" seems like a good skit.
I think that GH believes the US is broken beyond repair, and most people here don't. Most people believe it is broken, yes, but not beyond repair. Most of the disconnect comes from GH trying different angles to demonstrate that the US is broken beyond repair but people not being willing to accept that. He's listed getting people to accept that it's broken beyond repair as step one towards revolution, and this vote/not vote does feel like it's still just pushing people towards that idea.
(For clarity, I do not think the US is currently fascist and authoritarian.) Haha, the climax of V for Vendetta 2 Electric Boogoloo is just some really intensely shot, 20 minute long fight scene consisting of cutting back and forth between our hero GH and whoever the villain is as they exchange heated posts on TL. Done in the style of every single 90s ‘I’m in.’ hacking scenes. In a more serious but much, much less fun note I must say I share a lot of that fatalism, capitalism is as entrenched as it’s ever been and rather the root of many an issue, even as its flaws are biting pretty hard. Without going into TLDR territory, those flaws are nothing new, but for a pretty sizeable chunk of time ‘a rising tide raises all boats’ was somewhat true. It’s certainly not the case currently, and few parties anywhere, to my knowledge actually have policies, even on paper to deal with these issues, even within a redistributive capitalist framework, never mind the dreaded s word. Unless you have medical issues that your particular healthcare system is fucking you on, you’re an actively persecuted minority or you’re fuck off rich I’d wager that housing prices continuing on a decades-long trajectory of far outstripping both inflation and real wage increases is likely the absolute single most impactful issue of the day for almost everyone. Well, it suits landlords from the individual to the culture capital level I guess, but everyone else. And yet, remarkably few policy pushes here, you might get the odd house building pledge but that’s kind of a band aid as solutions go. There’ll be a few more houses going, it’s not going to meaningfully push prices back down. People may disagree with my assertion, but I’m pretty confident in it. A system is pretty fundamentally broken if it doesn’t even attempt to tackle what (I believe) is probably the single biggest socioeconomic issue of our time, at least in terms of a lived experience and quality of life. The other biggest issue, which is less immediately apparent, nor important for many is of course climate change, which were also doing a pretty shit job at dealing with. If not quite beyond repair, it does somewhat intrigue me as to why America in particular is fucked in an almost unique manner, and has problems unique to it. With the giant caveat that of course there were many, many issues regarding minorities, the US used to be ahead, or at least on par with European countries, Canada etc in quite a few respects. Much of it idealised of course, but it used to be a country many looked at as aspirational, to be envied even. But over the decades it’s sort of drifted on its own, particular trajectory of dysfunction. I’m curious as to why this is, and really can’t put a finger on it. Other countries have huge cultural differences between regions, or even households. Others have flawed political structures, ethnic tensions or any number of other commonalities, but yet the US somehow ends up with a lot of quirks that make it a special idiosyncratic snowflake amongst vaguely comparable countries. Bit of a ramble the last part, but it’s a question that continually exercises me and I’ve spent quite a bit pondering, I’m interested to hear what y’all think on that particular topic. A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. Further investigation showed the Pulse shooting was almost certainly not an anti-gay attack, it seems that the shooter chose the place almost at random after eliminating his original target from consideration.
Okay. Thank you for the clarification.
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On February 15 2024 16:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 16:25 RvB wrote:
The housing market is a textbook case of government failure. Supply is artificially restricted by excessive zoning laws and at the same time demand is subsided via things like rent control and tax breaks for home ownership. Markets can certainly fail but the housing market is not a good example. Zoning laws are "artificial restrictions"? Do you agree that space on land is a limited resource? If so, then it is a natural restriction. Zoning just defines other uses for land as well, and restricts the land available for housing further, but if we let urban sprawl all over Central Park, Yellowstone, prime farmland or other natural resources better used for other purposes we'd still have a housing crisis. There's plenty of land *currently* available for building houses under the current zoning laws. You could build apartment blocks instead of single story homes. You could revitalize deteriorating areas (of which the US has plenty). You could use housing zones for housing rather than each house having a private swimming pool. You could restrict second home ownership rules. But while zoning is often arbitrary and incoherent, the mere existence of zoning rules is not an artificial limitation, it's simply a consequence of a very natural limitation.
Excessive zoning laws is what I said. Zoning laws also include regulations concerning things like density and height. Apartment blocks aren't allowed on land zoned for single family housing. Zoning is useful since you don't want heavy industry in the middle of a residential area but currently zoning laws in most developed countries are far too restrictive.
For instance, in NL people often argue we don't have enough space to build new housing but 70% of the land is zoned for agricultural use. Trying to change it from agricultural to residential takes years and is very difficult. Yet demand for land zoned for residential use is so much higher than for agricultural use that if the same plot of land changes from agricultural to residential the value increases by a factor of 10.
And then there are all the other rules like density, height, how many parking spots are required, how much space a building is allowed to take, etc. Often the rules make sense in isolation but taken together it's a mess and massively increases costs
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Not to mention we've got a lot of empty office buildings that could be converted to apartment buildings if zoning laws weren't getting in the way.
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On February 15 2024 19:12 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 18:56 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:On February 14 2024 17:17 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Haha, the climax of V for Vendetta 2 Electric Boogoloo is just some really intensely shot, 20 minute long fight scene consisting of cutting back and forth between our hero GH and whoever the villain is as they exchange heated posts on TL. Done in the style of every single 90s ‘I’m in.’ hacking scenes.
In a more serious but much, much less fun note I must say I share a lot of that fatalism, capitalism is as entrenched as it’s ever been and rather the root of many an issue, even as its flaws are biting pretty hard. Without going into TLDR territory, those flaws are nothing new, but for a pretty sizeable chunk of time ‘a rising tide raises all boats’ was somewhat true. It’s certainly not the case currently, and few parties anywhere, to my knowledge actually have policies, even on paper to deal with these issues, even within a redistributive capitalist framework, never mind the dreaded s word.
Unless you have medical issues that your particular healthcare system is fucking you on, you’re an actively persecuted minority or you’re fuck off rich I’d wager that housing prices continuing on a decades-long trajectory of far outstripping both inflation and real wage increases is likely the absolute single most impactful issue of the day for almost everyone. Well, it suits landlords from the individual to the culture capital level I guess, but everyone else. And yet, remarkably few policy pushes here, you might get the odd house building pledge but that’s kind of a band aid as solutions go. There’ll be a few more houses going, it’s not going to meaningfully push prices back down.
People may disagree with my assertion, but I’m pretty confident in it. A system is pretty fundamentally broken if it doesn’t even attempt to tackle what (I believe) is probably the single biggest socioeconomic issue of our time, at least in terms of a lived experience and quality of life. The other biggest issue, which is less immediately apparent, nor important for many is of course climate change, which were also doing a pretty shit job at dealing with.
If not quite beyond repair, it does somewhat intrigue me as to why America in particular is fucked in an almost unique manner, and has problems unique to it.
With the giant caveat that of course there were many, many issues regarding minorities, the US used to be ahead, or at least on par with European countries, Canada etc in quite a few respects. Much of it idealised of course, but it used to be a country many looked at as aspirational, to be envied even. But over the decades it’s sort of drifted on its own, particular trajectory of dysfunction.
I’m curious as to why this is, and really can’t put a finger on it. Other countries have huge cultural differences between regions, or even households. Others have flawed political structures, ethnic tensions or any number of other commonalities, but yet the US somehow ends up with a lot of quirks that make it a special idiosyncratic snowflake amongst vaguely comparable countries.
Bit of a ramble the last part, but it’s a question that continually exercises me and I’ve spent quite a bit pondering, I’m interested to hear what y’all think on that particular topic. A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Oh, so it for sure is a legitimate question because you could reasonably expect people to have heard stuff about shootings and the governor being anti-LGBTQ+, and then wonder whether that information was worth anything! Got it! The defense of "Yeah but their fears are irrational" doesn't exactly do much either. Sure, it's a legitimate, albeit ignorant question. I stand corrected.
Roger!
My original post wasn't sarcastic - I love being comically shitty with my friends. What I hope also happens is that they get the information they're asking for. I know plenty of country fuckers that could have heard similar questions regarding California (shit, needles, etc) about Vancouver and my response to their question of "Hey is it safe?" would be something in the ballpark of "No, but it's real easy to buy Heroin, so that's a plus."... followed by a "Actually the majority of the city is safe. East Hastings (Vancouver's homeless alley/camp) can be a bit fucky to see and experience the first time and I wouldn't choose it as a place for an evening stroll, but overall you're no less safe in most of Van than you would be in your average bar"
Point being that it's not up to me to decide for them whether or not their fears are legitimate. Especially in a case where I'm not a member of a discriminated party. If a Muslim were to ask me if my current locale is safe for them, I'd tell them I've never tried wearing a turban just to see what happens, so I couldn't say.
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On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 05:18 BlackJack wrote:[quote] A couple days ago I went into San Francisco and hailed a driverless taxi. A white electric Jaguar i-Pace pulled up with nobody in the car. I got into the back seat and the car drove itself to the restaurant I wanted to go to, found a safe spot to pull over and then let us out. We live in the best times and everything is amazing. People that want to insist that everything is shite and broken beyond repair are living in their own delusions. Are there some issues with wage stagnation, squeezing of the middle class, housing affordability? Sure, there's no such thing as utopia. It's also not true that housing isn't being addressed. For example in California there were 56 housing bills signed into law in 2023 designed to reduce burdensome regulations and permitting processes and increase production. We're also seeing an uptick in union activity with multiple high profile strikes. The UAW won a 25% raise over 4 years which is nothing to sneeze at. Anyway I never understood people that lament about so called "late-stage capitalism" and how everything is terrible and we need a revolution. Globally you can see decades long downward trends in poverty, hunger, infant mortality. A lot of it spurred on by new tech and innovation. The U.S. more than any other country contributes the most to new tech and innovation. Somehow I'm supposed to be sold on the idea that the U.S. is the worst offender in this capitalist nightmare and in dire need of massive reform. No thanks. This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate. Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out. In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Show nested quote +Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected.
My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays."
But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not.
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On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
[quote]
This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.
Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate.
Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out.
In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not.
Important context question: Was 'safe' in the instance of your LGBT friends explicitly to mean 'will I get stabbed or worse', or could it be understood as 'do I need to be afraid of someone shouting a slur at me'?
If they weren't clear either way and you just inferred that they meant 'stabbed y/n?' then the discussion is quite different.
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There‘s no middle ground in Florida, there‘s beaches, and then there’s trails of people with maga hats wading through the bayou.
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On February 16 2024 07:44 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not. Important context question: Was 'safe' in the instance of your LGBT friends explicitly to mean 'will I get stabbed or worse', or could it be understood as 'do I need to be afraid of someone shouting a slur at me'? If they weren't clear either way and you just inferred that they meant 'stabbed y/n?' then the discussion is quite different.
We were definitely talking about physical violence. But I think the odds of them encountering someone shouting slurs at them in say Ft Lauderdale or Miami is pretty low also, probably no higher than in SoCal.
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On February 16 2024 07:58 Vivax wrote:
There‘s no middle ground in Florida, there‘s beaches, and then there’s trails of people with maga hats wading through the bayou.
That's some marvelously hilarious imagery hahahaha. Thank you for that.
On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 07:27 Fleetfeet wrote:
[quote]
This is why I don't weigh in on he actual question of whether not the US is shit. From the outside looking in, I can obviously see some issues (Healthcare, inflexible two-party system, gerrymandering etc) but without actually being in the system and feeling how inflexible or shit it actually is, all someone from the outside can do is listen to people on the inside about how conditions actually are.
Functionally, I see unchecked capitalism as a problem - it's led to the issues we see between the cost of necessary medicines being exorbitantly more expensive than they should be. However, I do not think overall capitalism is wholly unchecked, and continued change going forward will continue to rein in some of the greater offences, as well as general anti-capitalist sentiment working its way into how companies operate.
Ultimately, I don't think we can escape capitalism. If you were to 'delete capitalism' in a city as an experiment (like an ARPG starting a new season, wipe all bank accounts / corporations and start fresh) I cannot belive we'd see anything other than a reconstruction of the same general capitalist structure, just with different actors and names. It's the method we know for exchanging goods and services, and big players would still rise for providing their goods or services well, and then be able to use that market share to bully smaller players out.
In my day-to-day life, I see socialist ideas creeping their way into capitalist structures, and can't help but think that is how things continue going forward. I do not see any revolution happening on a major scale unless something ACTUALLY breaks. People will not be motivated to fix it until then. Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not.
Do your trans friends go to the bathroom? I'm not saying that LGBTQ+ people are consistently getting lynched all over Florida, and I think that's a bar placed way too high. You just hand-waved away all the actual legislation and discrimination that the LGBTQ+ community might need to deal with in Florida, pushed by DeSantis and other conservative leaders in that state, by saying that since the trees aren't full of gay people and some areas can be inclusive in spite of the anti-inclusive laws, it's therefore irrational to worry about visiting Florida as a trans person. I agree with you that an important factor is whether the person is in a blue/liberal/tolerant area or in a red/conservative/intolerant area, but I feel like discriminatory legislation and a governor who's actively considering them as second-class citizens are still sufficient enough to cause reason for pause, even if it's probably not a life-threatening scenario.
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On February 16 2024 10:33 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 07:44 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:
[quote]
I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not. Important context question: Was 'safe' in the instance of your LGBT friends explicitly to mean 'will I get stabbed or worse', or could it be understood as 'do I need to be afraid of someone shouting a slur at me'? If they weren't clear either way and you just inferred that they meant 'stabbed y/n?' then the discussion is quite different. We were definitely talking about physical violence. But I think the odds of them encountering someone shouting slurs at them in say Ft Lauderdale or Miami is pretty low also, probably no higher than in SoCal.
Valid, and that's important context. It saves us from the idea that DPB is erroneously jumping from the idea of your friends being excessively worried about being called unpleasant things to bath-salted gator wrasslers threatening violence. I doubt DPB was arguing anything about those straw men, rather pointing to fears regarding some latent trans/homophobia being wholly justified.
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On February 16 2024 11:06 Fleetfeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 10:33 BlackJack wrote:On February 16 2024 07:44 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not. Important context question: Was 'safe' in the instance of your LGBT friends explicitly to mean 'will I get stabbed or worse', or could it be understood as 'do I need to be afraid of someone shouting a slur at me'? If they weren't clear either way and you just inferred that they meant 'stabbed y/n?' then the discussion is quite different. We were definitely talking about physical violence. But I think the odds of them encountering someone shouting slurs at them in say Ft Lauderdale or Miami is pretty low also, probably no higher than in SoCal. Valid, and that's important context. It saves us from the idea that DPB is erroneously jumping from the idea of your friends being excessively worried about being called unpleasant things to bath-salted gator wrasslers threatening violence. I doubt DPB was arguing anything about those straw men, rather pointing to fears regarding some latent trans/homophobia being wholly justified.
Correct. I'm not interested in engaging in those hyperbolic strawmen or moving of the goalposts from being treated as second-class citizens to literal genocide lol.
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On February 16 2024 10:59 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 07:58 Vivax wrote:
There‘s no middle ground in Florida, there‘s beaches, and then there’s trails of people with maga hats wading through the bayou. That's some marvelously hilarious imagery hahahaha. Thank you for that. Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 06:07 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 20:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 19:58 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 18:32 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 18:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 15 2024 12:41 BlackJack wrote:On February 15 2024 11:23 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 15 2024 09:10 BlackJack wrote:
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Yes and often people's perspective is what the media they are consuming is telling them. I think I see this firsthand as well as anyone as someone that has 'dual-citizenship' in California and Florida. People in Florida think if you go to California you'll trip over a mountain of human feces and used needles and people in California think if you go to Florida and you're gay the gay-stapo will round you up into the paddy wagons to take to prison. I've had LGBT friends in California unironically ask me if I think it's safe for them to vacation in Florida. Miami? Hell no, you're better off going to Uganda is what I told them, naturally. I love that you simultaneously mock people for believing what media has told them AND just straight lie to your misled friends asking arguably legitimate questions. I can relate, though I will usually follow with an "I'm fucking with you. They might be homophobes but not the "form a lynch mob" sense, just the usual "think less of you from a safe distance" sense." Don’t worry, my sarcasm picks up better in real life than it does on here. If you think this is an arguably legitimate question then it sounds like you’ve bought into the negative trope about Florida as much as they have. If Governor DeSantis's anti-LGBTQ+, anti-DEI, anti-woke rhetoric is taken seriously; If his Florida election support and approval ratings are considered; If the Orlando gay nightclub mass shooting (Pulse) is remembered; If advocacy groups are cautioning the LGBTQ+ community about coming to Florida + Show Spoiler +...Then I'm not surprised that people might be concerned. I should clarify, I don't find it surprising either. The last few years should tell us that all kinds of people have irrational fears about all kinds of things when they get sucked into a media echo chamber that loves to sensationalize and terrify people for ratings and profit. Why do you consider mass shootings and anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric from the governor to merely be media sensationalism that doesn't warrant legitimate concern for one's safety? Why is it irrational for LGBTQ+ people to think twice before traveling to Florida, when DeSantis's hate has so much support in his state and when advocacy groups are advising their communities based on actual legislation and discrimination they experience? Because a one-off mass shooting and "anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric" are pretty irrelevant regarding whether somewhere is safe to visit. Yesterday there was an attempted mass shooting at some church in Texas. You wouldn't say Texas is unsafe for Christians. Anti-LGBT hate speech is kind of a vague term and encompasses a lot of things, including Dave Chappelle telling jokes. Do you have any particular example of the governor's rhetoric you feel incites violence towards LGBT folk? Dave Chappelle isn't an elected politician governing an entire state, and I don't know enough about the Texas situation to comment on it. DeSantis's rhetoric isn't hollow; it's led to several anti-LGBTQ+ laws that perpetuate discrimination (and I'm of the opinion that increased discrimination enables violence against marginalized groups, and we know that the LGBTQ+ community is constantly being assaulted - or worse - for merely existing). The previous source I just shared with you has these particular examples: Since 2021, under the leadership of Governor Ron DeSantis, the state has seen a significant erosion in LGBT, especially transgender, rights.[3] In June 2021, a bill was passed preventing transgender women and girls from participating in female sports in schools.[4] In April 2023, Florida LGBT advocacy group Equality Florida issued a travel advisory for LGBT people to avoid visiting or moving to the state.[5][6] The following May, the Human Rights Campaign signed on to the travel advisory, citing legislation recently signed by Governor DeSantis, while stopping short of calling for a boycott of the state.[7]
In May 2023, several bills were signed by DeSantis, which prohibited access to hormone replacement therapy for transgender minors and created barriers to accessing hormone replacement therapy for adults, including banning insurance coverage for such treatments and requiring a physician to administer the treatment rather than a nurse practitioner.[8] Furthermore, the bills allow for transgender individuals using a restroom consistent with their gender identity in a public building to be charged with criminal trespass,[9] expand the Parental Rights in Education Act,[10] enable medical practitioners to deny service based on personal belief,[11] and restrict "adult live performances" anywhere a child might be present (notably targeting drag performances, as claimed by DeSantis).[10] ...
Since July 1, 2023,[101] it is illegal for a trans person at any state school, state university, or government building (e.g., at a beach or airport), to use any bathroom or changing facility consistent with their gender identity.[9] Each institution must place gender labels on its bathrooms and establish internal "disciplinary procedures" for its own members (faculty, staff, students, inmates, etc.) who enter the bathroom forbidden to them.[101] An authority figure at the institution who spots someone using the bathroom for the "opposite sex" may ask the person to "depart". If the accused person doesn't depart and doesn't have an official status at the institution, they can be charged with criminal trespass.[102]
On August 23, for Florida's 28 public community and state colleges, the Florida Board of Education approved a disciplinary procedure: employees who enter the bathroom forbidden to them can be fired. (This procedure does not affect Florida's state universities, which are in a different system.)[103] ...
On October 18, 2023, the Florida Board of Education voted to apply a similar restriction on bathroom use at private college and university buildings, including at any student housing run by those schools. The schools must prove their compliance by April 1, 2024.[101] ...
In December 2022, undercover agents of DeSantis' administration attended a drag performance in Orlando to determine whether the event was violating state obscenity laws, especially if minors were present. The undercover agents found no wrongdoing, and that the venue did not violate state obscenity or decency laws.[37] However, the state filed a complaint against the Orlando Philharmonic Plaza Foundation, the organizer of the event, claiming that these laws were violated anyways.[38]
In May 2023, Governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill to ban "adult live performances" anywhere a minor might view them, under criminal penalty.[39][40] Though the law does not explicitly name "drag shows" as a target, DeSantis said the law was about "drag shows" when he signed the bill.[10] On June 23, a judge issued a preliminary injunction against the bill, preventing its enforcement during a pending legal challenge, on the basis that not all drag performances are obscene and that current obscenity laws provide enough protection to minors.[41] Though the state appealed the preliminary injunction, the U.S. Supreme Court decided not to interfere with it.[42] ...
The [Florida] guidelines say that transgender youth under 18 should not be treated with puberty blockers, hormone therapy, or gender confirming surgeries (though surgery was already generally not provided to minors), excluding treatment for intersex minors. A memo stated that social transition "should not be a treatment option for children or adolescents." This contradicted the global medical consensus as reflected in the WPATH Standards of Care.[120] Most major medical organizations, including the U.S Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), and international bodies such as The Endocrine Society, opposed Florida's proposal.[121][122][123] ...
In August 2022, Florida, citing state-issued guidance against gender affirming care ("widely debunked", according to the UK's Independent), began a rule change process to institute bans on social transition and gender-affirming healthcare for trans youth and a requirement for any adult seeking gender-affirming care to receive approval from the Florida Board of Medicine at least 24 hours in advance.[124] ...
On October 28, 2022, Florida's Board of Medicine passed a motion to ban all gender-affirming healthcare for minors, including puberty blockers, hormones, and surgeries.[125][126] ... On October 31, 2022, the Florida Medical Board implemented the new rule that requiring a 24 hour waiting period for adults before they can undergo sexual reassignment surgery and to ban minors from any gender-affirming healthcare.[130] On November 4, 2022, the new rule was approved by the Florida Board of Medicine. ...
In April 2023, both houses of the Florida state legislature passed a bill codifying the ban on gender affirming care for minors, and allowing the state to modify or nullify parental custody agreements from other states if the child involved is allowed access to or is “threatened with” being allowed access to gender affirming care.[132] ...
On March 28, 2022, Governor of Florida Ron DeSantis signed the Parental Rights in Education Act,[156] often referred to as "Don't Say Gay" by its opponents.[157][158] The Florida Legislature had passed it earlier that month. The law took effect on July 1, 2022.[159] It applied from kindergarten through grade 3. On May 17, 2023, DeSantis signed a separate bill that expanded the restrictions to older students.[10] Here's the link again, for convenience: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Florida#:~:text=Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and,Court's decision in Lawrence v The Wiki goes into a lot more detail than just what's presented here, but this is a start. DeSantis isn't just talking the bigoted talk; he's also walking the bigoted walk. It's certainly enough to legitimize concerns for safety, which was what you rejected. My friends aren't trans minors trying to play girls sports or get hormone therapy while on vacation. Even if they were they would just not be able to do that as opposed to having some threat to their personal safety. I take it your argument is somehow that all the crazy Florida men high on bath salts and fresh off of wrasslin' gators will somehow think "My governor doesn't want biological males to play women's sports so that means I need to lynch some gays." But since I'm from Florida I'll offer some insight into the politics/geography of the state. You see, the areas where people go to vacation are not MAGA country. In fact they are deep blue. My home county (Broward county) went for Biden 64-34. Miami, Palm Beach, Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, all went for Biden. Culturally you'd have a hard time telling if you are in one of these places vs say San Diego or Los Angeles. These are the places people go to on vacation and you're probably more likely to get assaulted for wearing a MAGA hat than for being LGBT. If you vacation to Florida to go to a small hick town in the middle of the state without any beachs and only swamps, I'd probably advise you not to go regardless if you're LGBT or not. Do your trans friends go to the bathroom? I'm not saying that LGBTQ+ people are consistently getting lynched all over Florida, and I think that's a bar placed way too high. You just hand-waved away all the actual legislation and discrimination that the LGBTQ+ community might need to deal with in Florida, pushed by DeSantis and other conservative leaders in that state, by saying that since the trees aren't full of gay people and some areas can be inclusive in spite of the anti-inclusive laws, it's therefore irrational to worry about visiting Florida as a trans person. I agree with you that an important factor is whether the person is in a blue/liberal/tolerant area or in a red/conservative/intolerant area, but I feel like discriminatory legislation and a governor who's actively considering them as second-class citizens are still sufficient enough to cause reason for pause, even if it's probably not a life-threatening scenario.
I handwaved away your list of legislation because very little of it applies to tourists. None of it even applies to the vast majority of LGBT people that aren't trans. Whether someone wants to have pause over visiting an area is up to them. Some people might have pause going to Cabo San Lucas or Cancún over fear of the drug cartels. Most people consider tourist/resort areas generally safe. Nothing is perfectly safe. At the end of the day it's all subjective. If someone told me to not visit Puerto Vallarta because a Mexican might lop my head off I'd consider that ignorant and borderline offensive even if Mexico does have drug cartels that might lop peoples heads off.
But there is reason to believe that people's perceptions on the risk of certain things are warped and I'd bet the media pushing fear and sensationalism is the main culprit. For example, a poll asked "How many unarmed black men do you think are killed by Police each year." Over half of those identifying as very liberal thought the number was 1,000 or greater. The actual number was 27. During COVID Gallup asked what % of people that get COVID need to be hospitalized. Over half of Democrats thought the likelihood was 30% of greater. The correct answer was <1%. So people should at least try to be aware that their suspected risk of something may be off by a factor of 30x or 50x.
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On February 16 2024 13:23 BlackJack wrote:But there is reason to believe that people's perceptions on the risk of certain things are warped and I'd bet the media pushing fear and sensationalism is the main culprit. For example, a poll asked "How many unarmed black men do you think are killed by Police each year." Over half of those identifying as very liberal thought the number was 1,000 or greater. The actual number was 27. This is just bullshit. Unsurprisingly, the NY Post writer cited no sources for that.
[url=https://policeepi.uic.edu/data-civilian-injuries-law-enforcement/facts-figures-injuries-caused-law-enforcement/]The University of Illinois Chicago[url] has organized data from the CDC, and their spreadsheet says police killed 166 black people in 2019.
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I checked and it looks like they did cite their source for that figure in the article. The reason your number is different is likely because you're including everyone that was killed and the poll specifically asked about unarmed people that were killed.
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On February 16 2024 14:52 BlackJack wrote:I checked and it looks like they did cite their source for that figure in the article. The reason your number is different is likely because you're including everyone that was killed and the poll specifically asked about unarmed people that were killed.
How many unarmed black people with a moustache got killed by police using knifes on a tuesday afternoon in april?
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EPT
