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On February 03 2024 04:03 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 02:58 JimmiC wrote:On February 03 2024 02:50 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 02:16 JimmiC wrote:On February 03 2024 01:02 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 13:22 RenSC2 wrote:On February 02 2024 09:49 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 09:33 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:15 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
Nope you answered a question I didn’t ask. And when you call Hamas freedom fighters, or act like they are a rational political group you are sympathizing.
If they were freedom fighters they would have picked a different target and used different tactics. Their leadership didn’t have an accident. They meticulously planned and executed a strategy to bring them closer to their goals. And it was successful.
The rest of your post is garbage. There was at least two freak outs in last couple of months and I’ve run out of patience. Good luck in your life but I’m past caring. It does not matter to me at all what you think of me or my posting. I’ve never that I can recall ever called Hamas freedom fighters, show me the post. Please, for the class. National self-determination and liberal values aren’t always bedfellows. Hamas can both want freedom from being under the boot of Israel and themselves be quite restrictive in what rights they would give, or do give to their subjects. Did every former colony of the British Empire enjoy better civic rights for their population after independence? Some did, some didn’t, but it’s not really a justification for the British Empire continuing as it did to the present day. When or where did I say that or anything remotely close? I’m your analogy did the people under British rule call the freedom fighters oppressive and corrupt in massive percentages? When they were funded and controlled by either the US or Russia were they a proxy army or freedom fighters? If the latter than all the coups people claim about the US destabilizing areas, in South America for example, was actually the US supporting freedom fighters? I never claimed you did say such a thing, it was an illustrative example that national self-determination and a more generally accepted universal standard of human rights don’t always coexist Hamas can simultaneously be fighting for freedom from Israel, while their own regime denies basic freedoms to their populace, both can be true. Have you dug out the post where I called Hamas noble freedom fighters yet btw? You certainly implied in this very post that Hamas are freedom fighters. You said they can "be fighting for freedom". That's pretty much the definition of a freedom fighter. I find that to be problematic for one of two reasons. Either, 1) You've made "freedom fighter" such a loose term that it loses all its meaning. If someone fights to keep his slaves, is he a freedom fighter? He's fighting for his own freedom to hold slaves, thus a "freedom fighter". Freedom fighter is a positive term that I feel requires more than fighting for some vague version of "freedom". The "freedom" itself needs to be a highly qualified greater good. If someone is fighting for their freedom to impose their own rule on others, I can't call them freedom fighters. That's where Hamas fails. They may be fighting Israel, but their actions have always been worse. Their treatment of humanity has always been worse. Their belief in rights has always been worse. "Freedom" for them is awful for everyone else. So I can't even say that they're "fighting for freedom from Israel". I don't want to even imply that they're freedom fighters. What they want is not freedom. 2) You're purely proposing a hypothetical. You do say, "can simultaneously be". That says that you're not saying they are, just that they could theoretically be. The problem with this is that by purely proposing a hypothetical, you are linking the two things together. Tucker Carlson is known for this tactic. He's "just asking questions". He uses highly leading questions to imply certain things without ever directly saying those things. It's very weaselly. Of course, he's far from the first or only one to do it. Another example, in the 2000 Republican primaries, Bush's cronies would do "Polls" in southern states and ask questions like "How would you feel if you found out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child?" Those "pollsters" were just asking questions. However, the question itself was extremely leading and got a bunch of southern Republican voters to link McCain with an affair and black people, which likely hurt McCain's chances in a religious and racist south. Even if you're purely asking questions or making statements from a theoretical standpoint, you're subtly making links in people's minds. @Jimmy + Fleet thanks for responses just using this one to quote off It is essentially both a loaded term with positive connotations, but definitionally so vague as to basically always apply to such scenarios. Which, is why I studiously avoid using it, and only did in response to other posts. And really in irritation at accusations of Hamas sympathies. As the old adage goes ‘one man’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist’ and all that. It is generally agreed that national self-determination is a legitimate thing to pursue, peoples should be able to pursue their own destiny. But that doesn’t always necessarily lead to greater freedom, or better conditions for the populace, although obviously it often can. This would strike me as one such case: 1) Do Hamas want a state for their people? - Yes 2) Is such a state under their control likely to be oppressive? - Yes If I’m frequently acknowledging 2, occasionally pointing out 1 doesn’t immediately invalidate the former utterances. Having to add endless caveats to posts to avoid accusations of Hamas sympathy also gets grating. My actual position on this is probably closest to Mohdoo, or at least how I interpret his posts, if I interpret the gist he may correct me. Hamas can’t win militarily, even with human shields and embedding themselves in the populace. Which, if not a legitimate tactic is basically necessity if they don’t want to be obliterated in a week. The Palestinians if they roundly disarm probably aren’t getting what they want because why would Israel give them it? They’ve shown less and less inclination over time and there’s a huge power imbalance that’s growing. Really the only hope for some kind of resolution that is palatable to both sides will come from external international pressure and those wheels are very, very slow to turn indeed on current/historical evidence. Hamas are dooming their people to continued suffering, whatever the cause it’s just not a winnable one. The IRA had sympathy for their cause in powerful stations (especially the US), the IRA didn’t have the British air striking civilian centres to root them out. The British don’t really, much as they’ll say otherwise, even care about Northern Ireland all that much, and even in the Troubles era there was never a huge visceral hatred between the peoples, who were culturally very similar. That kind of scenario, actually winnable. Ultimately it’s a perpetual conflict where all parties would benefit from a cessation. But they won’t because pride is one of our great flaws as a species. Hamas being in charge, and its methods take the only victory condition for even a two-state solution (nevermind what they actually desire) completely off the table Correct if I'm wrong, but the IRA was not the government in Ireland it was the British? And also the IRA was not ran by a foreign government? My other bone to pick is with your choice of likely in the 2nd point. They are the government and they are oppressive (and that is not me saying it, it is what the Gazans say). Most of your post I agree with, it is just that analogies don't really track. Like sure every resistance group gets branded terrorists. But there is a difference between planting a bomb and it killing a child vs walking into a home tying everyone up, raping the women and stabbing them all to death including the babies. There is a line you cross where the goal is no longer anything other than hate and terror. If their target on OCT 7th was a prison holding their people, any military outpost, a police station, any sort of infrastructure, even like a office building that housed the IDF in some way. I could see where many people are coming from, we would likely be more aligned. But considering what they did on top of how they treat their own women not mention their LGTB community, I feel to strongly about human rights to support them at all. If they "win" the Palestines will be worse off. It is the scenario I’m most familiar with so it’s my go-to, but there are as many differences as there are similarities. Indeed, I’m quite critical locally of my Irish fellows for often uncritically drawing a lineage between Irish Republicanism and Palestine, to the degree they make excuses for Hamas by (not necessarily consciously) drawing too many parallels. I think my very initial posts on Oct 7th alluded to a level of brutality and sadism that exceed mere pushes for self-determination and to a visceral, genocidal hatred of not just Israelis, but Jews in general. Cannot recall my exact wording but I’ll just reiterate again. It still doesn’t mean they’re not motivated by freedom from Israeli control, or are resisting that. What they would do with such a state of affairs isn’t going to be good, be it for their people, or Israelis. It’s a gap in my knowledge I’ll try to fill but I’d wager even if we magically removed Hamas from power and any influence, that broader Palestinian social and cultural views aren’t going to massively align with mine if we’re talking how women are perceived, never mind LGBT people. It doesn’t strike me as fertile ground for egalitarianism to sprout, at least initially. I don’t think Hamas is fully reflective of the populace, I do think they’re more extreme and wield power to withhold certain things, but neither do I think they’re the sole entity that’s subsuming some wellspring of Western values coming to the surface. I agree with you that much of their opinions would not match yours on human rights. Whereas outside of the wacky far right most of Israelis would. This is part of the reason why I do not understand why so many people treat Israel as the evil to the core empire. There is a lot of good in that nation. For me it's the opposite that is hard to understand. What is so special about Israel that we are willing to raise so many shields over their human right violations? This isn't a natural thing to do, even the US doesn't get that treatment a lot of the time. When China makes a concentration camp for its Uyghur population, we don't look for the opinions of the average Chinese person on stuff to compare them with the opinions of the average Uyghur, we don't look at whether there is a lot of good in China, we just declare that violating the human rights of the Uyghur is wrong. If someone kills someone else, what we're considering is the circumstances of that killing, and not which of the murderer or the victim is the liberal and which is the conservative. But somehow when the government of Israel does something, we're asked to consider what an average Israeli thinks of gay people. No, I don't care. The important thing is what the government of Israel did. Unfortunately, the other thing is that the Israeli wacky far right isn't a wacky far right. It currently runs the country, after having won an election (not with the majority but you know how that goes). It can be safely said to represent the views of 40% of Israelis, something in that ballpark. As for the opposition, the main parties in the opposition aren't critical of the occupation of Palestine, and some of the clearly genocidal statements that were given in response to October 7th came from politicians labeled as leftwing in the current Knesset. So no, I wouldn't say that the average Israeli agrees with me on human rights, I believe that muslims are also human and deserving of those and I don't reckon the average Israeli believes that. This situation didn't happen because the Israeli people are especially evil, by the way, there's no such thing as an evil group of humans, or as an evil human for that matter. They grew up in a culture and in an environment that viewed Palestinians as subhuman, the enemy, and so it was much easier for them to develop extremist views on this topic (much like Palestinians can easily develop extremist views when it comes to Israelis (or Jews) due to their own circumstances). There are obviously Israelis who have similar opinions to me when it comes to human rights, and they are to be celebrated. It took me a while to see what was wrong with the society I live in, and there was much less pressure on me than there is on them. They're heroes. Here are a few: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/pro-palestinian-israelis-face-threats-but-vow-to-keep-fighting-for-peaceYoutubehttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/23/israel-man-jailed-refuse-serve-idf-military-tal-mitnick-interviewhttps://www.vice.com/en/article/gyazzj/meet-the-taylor-swift-stan-who-went-to-jailYoutube
You think that the world is giving Israel special treatment in it's favor? The UNGA has made more resolutions against Israel than all other countries in the world combined. That includes North Korea, Iran, Myanmar, Russia, Uganda. There is geopolitical pressure to do so because you can make friends with 20+ Muslim states (many of which are oil rich) by pooping on the one Jewish state, but that is certainly out of proportion with actual crimes committed. And it's the opposite of giving Israel special protection.
As to critiquing individual acts of the Israeli government in isolation, I don't see a problem with that. No one does that more than Israelis themselves. But when the result of given line of critique and resolutions will affect the balance of power between Israel and Hamas (plus Iran and their related terrorist groups) in their continued war, then weakening Israel may well mean strengthening Hamas. It's worth considering whether such a trade off is worth it.
As to the Uyghurs, I haven't heard anything bad about them, so it's a more clear cut case. If, on the other hand, I heard that they were regularly committing terrorism against Han Chinese, they established their own fascist state with the goal of attacking further, and the local Han feared for their lives, I would investigate the matter thoroughly before making any sweeping statements on the issue. Since it's not that, it's interesting that there are so few protests on their behalf or resolutions against China about it.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607
More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage.
I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place.
It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing.
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CNN staff say network’s pro-Israel slant amounts to ‘journalistic malpractice’
Pretty long and detailed article on CNN's current and past coverage policies with respect to Israel and Palestine. Gist is that both top-down instructions and review / censor mechanisms act to justify Israel's actions, promote statements by the Israeli government and censor statements by Palestinians.
“The majority of news since the war began, regardless of how accurate the initial reporting, has been skewed by a systemic and institutional bias within the network toward Israel,” said one CNN staffer. “Ultimately, CNN’s coverage of the Israel-Gaza war amounts to journalistic malpractice.”
In addition to the edicts from Atlanta, CNN has a longstanding policy that all copy on the Israel-Palestine situation must be approved for broadcast or publication by the Jerusalem bureau. In July, the network created a process it called “SecondEyes” to speed up those approvals.
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One result of SecondEyes is that Israeli official statements are often quickly cleared and make it on air on the principle that that they are to be trusted at face value, seemingly rubber-stamped for broadcast, while statements and claims from Palestinians, and not just Hamas, are delayed or never reported.
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On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them
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On February 05 2024 01:39 JimmiC wrote:
Prepare to be shocked. And on top of that no military anywhere is going to clear a building floor by floor with people when they can just blow it up. Every building that has gunman in it are going to get blown up. If there was an actual trial on war crimes instead of on twitter, the war crime would be on Hamas.
I get it sucks but war sucks, especially when one of the combatants entire strategy is to commit as many war crimes as they possibly can. Not only because that is fucking awful, but also because it allows the other side to do what would normally be war crimes and is instead legitimate targets.
A fascinating insight into your mind there.
Especially considering the relative power of these two forces and how we got here at all.
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An uphill battle is an understatement, almost as if the political side of Hamas does not want the ceasefire because they know if he is released then their days are numbered. Because he is literally idolized plus Israel will not allow him to be released. Unless Mossad has a guarantee they know Hamas would have him assassinated which again, would be their undoing. Because Barghouti beats every single Hamas leader ins every polling ever conducted.
This just screams pure PR.
JERUSALEM (AP) — He’s viewed by some Palestinians as their Nelson Mandela, and he’s a prime candidate to become their president in the future. He’s also the highest-profile prisoner held by Israel.
Now Marwan Barghouti’s freedom is at stake in cease-fire negotiations between Hamas and Israel. Hamas leaders demanded Friday that Israel release Barghouti, a leader of the militant group’s main political rival, as part of any deal to end the fighting in Gaza.
The demand brings new attention to Barghouti, who plays a central role in Palestinian politics even after spending more than two decades behind bars. His release could lay the groundwork for his eventual election to national office.
Hamas’ gambit to free him appears to be an attempt to rally public support for the militant group as well as a recognition of his status as a uniquely unifying Palestinian figure.
“Hamas wants to show to the Palestinian people that they are not a closed movement. They represent part of the Palestinian social community. They are trying to seem responsible,” said Qadoura Fares, who heads the Palestinian Ministry of Prisoner Affairs in the occupied West Bank and has long been involved in negotiations over prisoner releases.
Senior Hamas official Osama Hamdan called for Barghouti’s release as international mediators try to push Israel and Hamas toward an agreement after nearly four months of war.
Israel is seeking the release of more than 100 hostages still held by Hamas in Gaza. Hamas is demanding an end to Israel’s devastating military offensive and the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners.
The war broke out Oct. 7, when Hamas fighters crossed into Israel, killing some 1,200 people and dragging 250 hostages back to Gaza. The Hamas attack triggered an Israeli ground and air campaign that has killed more than 27,000 Palestinians, according to local health officials, and triggered a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.
Over 100 hostages were released during a weeklong truce in November. Israel estimates 136 hostages remain in captivity, though 20 have been pronounced dead. With protests calling for the hostages’ immediate release sweeping Israel, and fears that time is running out to bring them home safely, pressure is mounting on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to reach a deal.
For Palestinians, the plight of their imprisoned loved ones is deeply emotional. While Israel considers “security prisoners” to be terrorists, Palestinians widely see them as heroes battling Israeli occupation. Virtually every Palestinian has a friend, relative or acquaintance who has been imprisoned.
The Israeli human rights group HaMoked says Israel is currently holding nearly 9,000 security prisoners. Hamas seeks the release of all of them. But in his remarks Friday, Hamdan mentioned only two by name — Barghouti and Ahmad Saadat.
Saadat heads a small faction that killed an Israeli Cabinet minister in 2001 and is serving a 30-year sentence for allegedly participating in attacks.
Palestinians see the 64-year-old Barghouti, a member of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah party, as a natural successor to the 88-year-old Abbas, who leads the internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, the self-ruled government that administers parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank.
Abbas, whose forces in Gaza were overrun by Hamas in 2007, hopes to regain control of the territory after the war. But he is deeply unpopular because of corruption within the authority and because of his security coordination with the Israeli army.
Palestinians have not held elections since 2006, when Hamas won a parliamentary majority.
Fares, a Barghouti supporter, said that if Barghouti is released, he could become a consensus candidate in a round of new elections that Hamas, Fatah and other Palestinian factions could rally behind. A wartime opinion poll published in December showed Barghouti to be the most popular politician among Palestinians, ahead of both Abbas and Hamas’ leader, Ismail Haniyeh.
Israelis see Barghouti as an arch-terrorist, and convincing Israel to free him will be an uphill battle.
Barghouti, a leader in the West Bank during the second Palestinian uprising in the early 2000s, is serving five life terms for his role in several deadly attacks. During that uprising, Palestinian militants carried out deadly suicide bombings and shooting attacks in Israel and the Palestinian territories, targeting buses, restaurants, hotels and Israelis driving in the West Bank, eliciting crushing Israeli military reprisals.
In 2002, Barghouti was arrested on multiple counts of murder. He did not offer a defense, refusing to recognize the court’s authority. Since then, he has repeatedly thrust himself into the spotlight.
In 2021, he registered his own list for parliamentary elections that were later called off. A few years earlier, he led more than 1,500 prisoners in a 40-day hunger strike to call for better treatment in the Israeli prison system. From jail, he has continued to call for a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem — lands Israel seized in the 1967 war.
Barghouti was born in the West Bank village of Kobar in 1962. While studying history and politics at Bir Zeit University, he helped spearhead student protests against the Israeli occupation.
He emerged as an organizer in the first Palestinian uprising, which erupted in December 1987, but Israel eventually deported him to Jordan. He returned to the West Bank in the 1990s, as part of interim peace agreements that were meant to pave the way for a Palestinian state but got bogged down by the end of the decade when a second uprising erupted.
Barghouti was seen as political leader of the armed wing of Fatah at the time.
Israel has previously rejected calls to free him. It refused to include him in a 2011 exchange of more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for a single soldier held captive in Gaza by Hamas, said Fares, who was party to the negotiations. Yehya Sinwar, the current Hamas leader in Gaza and a mastermind of the Oct. 7 attack, was freed in that exchange.
The 2011 negotiations revolved around the release of a single hostage. With the lives of over 100 hostages now hanging in the balance, there is more pressure than ever on Israel to release Palestinian prisoners. That may make conditions ripe for a deal that could simultaneously win Barghouti’s release and bolster Hamas’ standing among Palestinians.
“Hamas is more strong and more clever than ever before,” Fares said. “They understand how necessary it is for the Palestinian people to have consensus.”
Source
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On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them
Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented.
It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime.
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On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance?
Destroying the 2500 buildings around it?
You're bound to get it that way.
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Norway28489 Posts
On February 04 2024 14:13 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 15:28 Salazarz wrote:
Re: comparisons between IRA & Hamas and how much worse and hateful Hamas is:
During the Troubles, over 1000 British servicemen were killed by IRA & friends, and vast majority of the ~1900 civilian deaths in that conflict were a direct result of IRA attacks, with something like 80% of them being loyalists. IRA and affiliated groups have lost around 500 members.
The death toll in the Palestine-Israel conflict for the past 20 years prior to the October attacks was at roughly ~10k Palestinians to 500 Israelis, and that's without counting injuries, disease, starvation, forced resettlement, and so on.
Casualties of the October attacks and the following military operation are at ~30k Palestinians to ~1500 Israelis. That's an interesting slice of time that conveniently excludes both Intifadas and most of the major wars, many of which lead to thousands of Israeli deaths, and obviously inform Israel's actions to this day. More to the point though: Kill/Death ratios are for comparing your skills in video games, not establishing moral high ground, so I'm not sure why people keep doing it. In WW2, only around 400k Americans died while 6-8 million Germans died. That does not make the Americans the bad guys and the Germans the good guys in that war.
K/D ratios aren't really morally relevant when comparing armies, but absolutely relevant when looking at civilian casualties. This is the foundation for stuff like considering all males above 18 (or 15-16) combatants, whether done by Israel when fighting in Gaza or by the US when drone striking a wedding, as reducing the civilian casualty number IS important to maintain any semblance of moral justification. This is why Israel's retaliation in the view of an increasing amount of people has gone far beyond the pale: If you kill 30000 people where most are civilians (mid january seems the number was 23k according to UNOCHA) to retaliate against having 1200 people (where I'm actually seeing that fewer than 800 were civilians) then at some point you've lost the moral high ground.
If Israel had killed 30k hamas soldiers and 500 civilians, then people would overwhelmingly feel entirely differently about the whole operation. But I care just as much about the 6 year old palestinian girl who loses her parents or dies in terror and darkness being trapped underneath rubble for two days as I care about the Israeli teenager who gets raped to death, and at some point, seeing far more examples of the former than the latter ends up affecting my sympathies.
World war 2 analogies are pretty poor for multiple reasons - but Germany/Japan are not primarily considered villains in that conflict because their armies were efficient and had a 2:1 K/D ratio in army vs army battles. They're considered villains because a) they were aggressors and b) they had a 15:1 K/D ratio in terms of civilians. People still debate whether Hiroshima/Nagasaki were justified, and the firebombing of Dresden is generally condemned - but these incidents are entirely dwarfed by the atrocities committed by the axis countries, and this is part of why ww2 is one of few conflicts where there's some degree of a 'good vs evil' narrative going on. If Japan's population of 72 million people had been exterminated at the end of ww2 rather than 'only' 130k-230k, or if the rape of berlin was done by american rather than soviet soldiers, the idea that the US represented 'good' in this conflict would have a much harder time propagating.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 05 2024 05:08 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 04:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 05 2024 00:21 Gorsameth wrote:On February 05 2024 00:07 JimmiC wrote:On February 04 2024 17:39 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68006607More than half of Gaza's buildings have been damaged or destroyed since Israel launched its retaliation for the Hamas attacks of 7 October, new analysis seen by the BBC reveals.
Detailed before-and-after imagery also shows how the bombardment of southern and central Gaza has intensified since the start of December, with the city of Khan Younis bearing much of the brunt of Israel's military action.
Israel has repeatedly told Gazans to move south for their own safety.
Across Gaza, residential areas have been left ruined, previously busy shopping streets reduced to rubble, universities destroyed and farmlands churned up, with tent cities springing up on the southern border to house many thousands of people left homeless.
About 1.7 million people - more than 80% of Gaza's population - are displaced, with nearly half crammed in the far southern end of the strip, according to the United Nations.
Further analysis, by BBC Verify, reveals the scale of destruction of farmland, identifying multiple areas of extensive damage.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has said it is targeting both Hamas fighters and "terror infrastructure", when challenged over the scale of damage. I wonder what KwarK thinks of this after making such a big deal out of the fact that the IDF definitely aren't trying to level the place. It kinda looks like that's exactly what they're doing. I don’t want to spew a number right now(because I don’t want to get it wrong) but there has been A LOT of tunnels. Many people “hosted” them in their homes or businesses (not that they likely had a choice, if a group ruling the area shows up with AKs and asked you to host you just say yes”.) I don’t know the numbers exactly but I would guess the number of building’s destroyed and the number of tunnels entrances are likely pretty close. I’m also fairly certain mistakes would be made given the sheer number. But I don’t think number of buildings destroyed alone proves much given how Hamas has designed their terror network. Your going to have a very hard time convincing me that half the buildings in Gaza have a tunnel under them Even if there were, blowing up a bunch of buildings 40-100's of feet above them isn't very effective at disabling them. Bout as effective as blowing up a garden shed, mother-in-law suite (with her inside), and burning all of your grass to get rid of the groundhog living in your yard. Aside from the depravity, I can understand how it might be cathartic, but it's still ineffective and demented. It's been abundantly obvious for a while now that Israel doesn't see a distinction between "terror infrastructure" and civilian infrastructure. They have even explicitly made a point to deprive Palestinian civilians basic supplies they need to survive as a publicly endorsed (and demanded) strategic war crime. What’s the effective way a destroying a tunnel entrance?
Securing, and collapsing big chunks of the actual underlying tunnel network.
What does destroying an entrance do if the overall system still remains? Level a bunch of buildings and close a few entrances and when the pressure is off new gateways into that system will just be built.
It doesn’t seem a particularly effective method, never mind the human cost which is also rather high.
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Norway28489 Posts
The BBC article linked which spurred this line of discussion states The analysis suggests between 144,000 and 175,000 buildings across the whole Gaza Strip have been damaged or destroyed.
To be fair it doesn't state how many have been 'destroyed' and what 'damaged' entails but if you look at the various 'before and after' pictures in the same article you can see that we're generally not talking about broken windows here.
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EPT
