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Germany335 Posts
On May 14 2023 18:47 Balnazza wrote:
It isn't really a triple elim bracket though, since I'm pretty sure in a triple elim the amount of matches would vary more. You would also probably be just qualified after 2x Bo3 instead of 3, right?
Speaking purely as a user, I don't really see what the problem with the (pseudo)Swiss system is? You can explain it in two sentences and you can see all matches in one table. Sure, the seeding isn't known beforehand for the next rounds, but who really cares about that in a groupstage?
Compared to that, I find even the CS:GO ESL Pro League triple-elim bracket confusing and they only use eight teams per group, not sixteen. I had to think rather long about it and I still feel the seeding doesn't make that much sense. Swiss (or "swiss") I did understand in like 45sec top...
yes it really is a triple elim bracket.
you can see an example at  Pseudo-Swiss format
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Okay, good to know. Still looks much more confusing, with matches just "appearing" in the bracket because of players dropping down one bracket etc.
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I think the swiss format is done a little dirty by how bad the state of the game is right now, it's not an enjoyable season to watch but it wouldn't have been in the other formats either. I don't really know how to look past that to consider just the format change.
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bo5 swiss would be more than fine
if bo3 then rr
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On May 15 2023 03:02 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
bo5 swiss would be more than fine
if bo3 then rr
Switching away from RR made this stage far less tedious. It's the only season I've watched any of the group stages. Changing to Bo5s for this would, I suppose, carry on the tradition of mind-numbing boredom, and I'd return to my own tradition of watching none of it.
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The format is difficult to understand but it's actually really great. I think it's hard to complain about seeding and such when you have to lose 3 matches before you get eliminated. And you get rewarded with easier opponents when you lose. I had never heard of it before, but as a viewer it seems fantastic. Every match matters now.
However, the 16 player single elimination bracket waiting at the end is a bit of a disappointment. If it's single elimination then it should just be an 8 player bracket. 16 player bracket really demands double elimination in my opinion, since only top 4 qualify.
This is unrelated, but I've always thought that instead of the weekly cups there should have been a long-running, low stakes tournament that only did matches once a week. My main problems with the weekly cups are 1. they don't build much storylines, and 2. they keep giving money to players who are already swimming in it. A longer running tournament could pay out more than just the top 4. But either this swiss format, or a traditional round-robin could be a good format for such a tournament.
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My issue with this format is the seeding, somehow losing the first match push you into the "Lower Bracket" and you never have to face the top players at least until round 5. Meanwhile winning the first match , and 2nd match, push you into the path against the top contenders and your road is just getting much tougher. Thats what happened to Wayne, he almost got eliminated by Terran cheese/pressure build after having an amazing start in the group.
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I think it is good for the players. Having 3 "lives" make sure that if you generally play better than average you can advance. The factor of bracket luckiness/unluckiness is greatly reduced.
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On May 15 2023 03:33 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2023 03:02 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
bo5 swiss would be more than fine
if bo3 then rr Switching away from RR made this stage far less tedious. It's the only season I've watched any of the group stages. Changing to Bo5s for this would, I suppose, carry on the tradition of mind-numbing boredom, and I'd return to my own tradition of watching none of it.
if the swiss portion is to be full bo3, then at least the play-off portion should be a double elim bracket though for sure. Even 8 players would suffice, imo.
bo5 ofc
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On May 15 2023 16:37 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2023 03:33 QOGQOG wrote:On May 15 2023 03:02 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
bo5 swiss would be more than fine
if bo3 then rr Switching away from RR made this stage far less tedious. It's the only season I've watched any of the group stages. Changing to Bo5s for this would, I suppose, carry on the tradition of mind-numbing boredom, and I'd return to my own tradition of watching none of it. if the swiss portion is to be full bo3, then at least the play-off portion should be a double elim bracket though for sure. Even 8 players would suffice, imo. bo5 ofc
Double-Elim Bo5 is again just a drag, nobody needs that, especially with 16 players. Bo5 should be reserved for the last few rounds of a tournament, Bo3 is plenty enough for the rest
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On May 16 2023 05:40 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2023 16:37 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On May 15 2023 03:33 QOGQOG wrote:On May 15 2023 03:02 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
bo5 swiss would be more than fine
if bo3 then rr Switching away from RR made this stage far less tedious. It's the only season I've watched any of the group stages. Changing to Bo5s for this would, I suppose, carry on the tradition of mind-numbing boredom, and I'd return to my own tradition of watching none of it. if the swiss portion is to be full bo3, then at least the play-off portion should be a double elim bracket though for sure. Even 8 players would suffice, imo. bo5 ofc Double-Elim Bo5 is again just a drag, nobody needs that, especially with 16 players. Bo5 should be reserved for the last few rounds of a tournament, Bo3 is plenty enough for the rest
Yeah, more matches =/= more better. If it's tighter, players can do more to prepare and each game matters more, both of which make for improved spectating.
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I'd prefer proper swiss not this hidden seed / random mess.
Although the results look nice, ~everyone advanced that 'should' advance.
( Edit: looking at the EU groups only )
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On May 14 2023 21:52 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 18:47 Balnazza wrote:
It isn't really a triple elim bracket though, since I'm pretty sure in a triple elim the amount of matches would vary more. You would also probably be just qualified after 2x Bo3 instead of 3, right?
Speaking purely as a user, I don't really see what the problem with the (pseudo)Swiss system is? You can explain it in two sentences and you can see all matches in one table. Sure, the seeding isn't known beforehand for the next rounds, but who really cares about that in a groupstage?
Compared to that, I find even the CS:GO ESL Pro League triple-elim bracket confusing and they only use eight teams per group, not sixteen. I had to think rather long about it and I still feel the seeding doesn't make that much sense. Swiss (or "swiss") I did understand in like 45sec top...
yes it really is a triple elim bracket. you can see an example at Pseudo-Swiss format
Why is it a "Pseudo-Swiss"? Ultimately isn't that exactly what a Swiss tournament is (except it would continue until a complete ranking is done)?
As a format, Swiss is second to round robin to eliminate bracket luck. In return, it provides theoritically more "closer/competitive/meaningful" games.
I like round robin, but swiss gives us less "meaningless" games. Not sure what the stuff about seeding is though, I can see it being impactful negatively especially if the rules of seeding isn't published.
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Germany335 Posts
On May 16 2023 23:41 papapanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 21:52 hjpalpha wrote:On May 14 2023 18:47 Balnazza wrote:
It isn't really a triple elim bracket though, since I'm pretty sure in a triple elim the amount of matches would vary more. You would also probably be just qualified after 2x Bo3 instead of 3, right?
Speaking purely as a user, I don't really see what the problem with the (pseudo)Swiss system is? You can explain it in two sentences and you can see all matches in one table. Sure, the seeding isn't known beforehand for the next rounds, but who really cares about that in a groupstage?
Compared to that, I find even the CS:GO ESL Pro League triple-elim bracket confusing and they only use eight teams per group, not sixteen. I had to think rather long about it and I still feel the seeding doesn't make that much sense. Swiss (or "swiss") I did understand in like 45sec top...
yes it really is a triple elim bracket. you can see an example at Pseudo-Swiss format Why is it a "Pseudo-Swiss"? Ultimately isn't that exactly what a Swiss tournament is (except it would continue until a complete ranking is done)?
see Differences to swiss format
As a format, Swiss is second to round robin to eliminate bracket luck. In return, it provides theoritically more "closer/competitive/meaningful" games.
That would require a logical, verifiable and hence also published seeding pattern. Neither is the case here.
I like round robin, but swiss gives us less "meaningless" games. Not sure what the stuff about seeding is though, I can see it being impactful negatively especially if the rules of seeding isn't published.
Imo a 3 round Pseudo Swiss (aka GSL style groups) is good and easy. The 5 round one is not as good.
Also content wise if you do GSL style groups you loose 26 Bo3 matches in EU and can do a double elim Bo5 in playoffs.
Arguably 26Bo3 ~= 15 Bo5; For AM/AS it would be 13Bo3 ~= 7Bo5
You would get a better understandable format, more competitiveness (since less matches of lower tier players) and it would be fairer since the (re-)seeding isn't whack.
(I personally would even advocate to half the amount of players per regional and make everything Bo5.)
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Ive never understood the seeding in the old groups formats. Back in Premier WCS or in Round Robin format. As long as there is one, and it is impersonal, i simply dont care.
The actual format is quite efficient in terms of every match beeing important and thrilling, be it in the upper or lower part.
But also not as dooming as the GSL format, where you could be paired in first game against a race or opponent youre not as good as the other ones and so you lost the first match. Then you won the second... And in the do or die match, 50% of times you had the same person you played in first round again!! I never got to like that format
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Why would you reduce the amount of players for the Regionals when the goal is clearly to provide a broader playerbase in the region to play in a high-stake tournament? And what exactly is "hard to understand" on this system, it is so easy ._. Yes, the seeding is slightly unknown for the specific matchups, but you get the general idea.
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I imagine the seeding rules being indiscernable (if existent at all) is precisely the big problem for automating certain things on Liquipedia, even more so if the stated seeding rules differ from what actually happens.
The fact that players stop playing at 3-0 or 3-1 instead of going through all five rounds does have some non-trivial implications for post-group seeding: someone who starts 3-0 is currently treated as though they finished 5-0 in an actual Swiss, even though they could just as well finish 3-2. Even if you'd bet more on 5-0 than 3-2, it probably wouldn't take many iterations of this format for someone to get lucky.
On the lower end, it looks like final record still matters for prize pool purposes, so cutting someone off at 0-3 as though they finished 0-5 matters, since in an actual Swiss with 5 rounds, they could still recover to 1 or 2 wins, especially if they got unlucky with initial pairings.
Given that, probably better that they just do an actual Swiss, especially with it being the same number of rounds anyway.
FWIW I initially thought "yeah this is just triple elim" but it's not quite right. A multi-elimination bracket eventually has players in the upper bracket(s) "wait" at least one round so that whenever players drop down, each one can be paired with someone that survived their last lower bracket match. Here, no such "waiting" happens, and the resulting bracket pairing is horrendously unnatural.
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On May 14 2023 21:52 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 18:47 Balnazza wrote:
It isn't really a triple elim bracket though, since I'm pretty sure in a triple elim the amount of matches would vary more. You would also probably be just qualified after 2x Bo3 instead of 3, right?
Speaking purely as a user, I don't really see what the problem with the (pseudo)Swiss system is? You can explain it in two sentences and you can see all matches in one table. Sure, the seeding isn't known beforehand for the next rounds, but who really cares about that in a groupstage?
Compared to that, I find even the CS:GO ESL Pro League triple-elim bracket confusing and they only use eight teams per group, not sixteen. I had to think rather long about it and I still feel the seeding doesn't make that much sense. Swiss (or "swiss") I did understand in like 45sec top...
yes it really is a triple elim bracket. you can see an example at Pseudo-Swiss format
Thank you sir, the explanation is cristal clear.
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EPT
