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On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage.
"Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man.
And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it.
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Yes, Republicans won the House off of the ACA, and look at them now.
They did a great job selling a complete lie to people stupid enough to believe them, and now the people are waiting for them to collect on their promise.
How is that turning out for them?
Who knew healthcare could be so difficulty!
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On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it.
Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that?
What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity.
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United States41470 Posts
Remember the Dijon mustard incident. Clearly Obama isn't one of us.
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He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world.
You have to understand that Obama was suppose to be something much greater then he became. He represented a fundamental shift in Us electoral understanding where a coalition of growing minority and young demographics being added to the left signaled a shift that would have changed things forever. He had a supermajority in congress and an electoral position that was literally unbeatable.
He represented and advocated for a change that was terrifying to conservatives in a face of an utterly unpopular and politically bankrupt party to represent them. Thats where the hate came from. He had all this power and then what did he do that he could really put his legacy behind? Obamacare was a step tword universal healthcare but lacked the charismatic support that would have sold it. His Middle eastern withdrawal was stained with the birth of ISIS (no matter how little he was at fault for it being made). His legislative legacy was crippled with an embarrassing 2010 midterms that he was never able to recover from. Race relations didn't magically improve and the mexico deal underpinned a lack of real success for him in office. Chicago is still Chicago and it becomes harder and harder to see something he actually did with all the hope and power he was given by his people.
Trump has embarrassed the nation and is undoubted the only candidate for worst president ever before even making a single political argument. I don't think he'll be able to get anything done that can't be repaired quickly once competent and non corrupt leadership takes office.
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On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity.
Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party.
People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too!
You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service.
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United States41470 Posts
On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable.
You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can.
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On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service.
I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would.
You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with).
There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover.
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United States41117 Posts
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United States41470 Posts
On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world.
This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on.
This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it.
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On July 17 2017 04:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can.
Trump wasn't notable at the time.
On July 17 2017 04:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service. I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would. You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with). There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover.
Opposition politics is a great unifying principle. But now the argument is changing from "conservatives" to "conservative politicians" (of whom there are very few). You will not find a defense of the GOP from me, although I will point out that part of the GOP's issues is because there are so many different brands of Republican.
That's one of the reasons they had no replacement; the others were because Obama was still president and they expected Hillary to win. Nothing having to do with racism.
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On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it.
I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good?
I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Iran specifically is an acknowledgment of the waning power of the US more so than actually making the US weaker. The US got a worse deal there than they would have gotten two decades ago and they don't have as much to show for that whole attempt as they would like.
He wasn't the worst at FP, but his policy results left much to be desired. For reasons that are, to be fair, not entirely his fault.
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United States41117 Posts
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He did get really unlucky with the GOP as well. The tea party should have really started a civil war within the party If the libertarians hadn't broke away from the party years previous. In the end it was embraced by the reactionaries who admittedly made the opposition to obama more about his race then the minority coalition that was the real threat to the old right style of politics.
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United States41470 Posts
On July 17 2017 05:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it. I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good? I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states.
Iran deal was a huge, huge deal for the world.
After the Bush doctrine was declared Iran needed a nuclear weapon to guarantee its national sovereignty. Which sucked because nobody else wanted Iran to have a nuke.
The other world powers followed US leadership into a sanctions regime to force Iran to the negotiating table.
Over time it became clear the US didn't plan on invading Iran anyway as Iraq had gone badly wrong and so Iran went to the negotiating table because they didn't really want the nuke and they did want the sanctions to end.
And then the US randomly forgot about the plan and just started threatening to invade Iran every year while never actually doing it and insisting that the sanctions would have to stay on and that they wouldn't negotiate.
The rest of the world got pretty pissed that the US was basically forcing Iran to continue the nuclear program and that they'd all hopped on this US led plan only to have the US steer them towards bullshit island.
Eventually the rest of the world started saying that they'd unilaterally end sanctions, whether or not Iran stopped their nuclear program, in order to get off Uncle Bush's wild ride.
Obama redeemed the situation by steering the sanctions coalition back to the original plan, sanctions to make Iran negotiate, sanction relief for ending the nuclear program.
The entire situation had become a case study in the failures of international American leadership. A plan that was written by America and executed by a team assembled by America failed at the moment of victory because America's political paralysis refused to allow them to accept the defined goals of the plan. The entire coalition devolved into infighting until the members threatened to blow the entire deal up rather than continue under American leadership. Anyone who thinks America was projecting strength and that Obama changed that needs just this one example to revise that opinion.
Furthermore Iran acts as a strong regional counterbalance to SA, which is the state promoting the Wahhabism that causes all the problems. Furthermore Iran fucks up OPEC, which is great for the US in terms of oil security and fucks over US rivals, most notably Russia, SA, ISIS etc. I have literally no idea how you could argue that Iranian oil makes the US weaker but lower oil prices is fucking fantastic, both for the American putting gas in his car and as a punitive economic blow against Russia. Russia's economic collapse can be laid at the feet of Obama and his diplomacy.
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United States41470 Posts
On July 17 2017 05:12 LegalLord wrote:
Iran specifically is an acknowledgment of the waning power of the US more so than actually making the US weaker. The US got a worse deal there than they would have gotten two decades ago and they don't have as much to show for that whole attempt as they would like.
He wasn't the worst at FP, but his policy results left much to be desired. For reasons that are, to be fair, not entirely his fault.
The Iran outcome Obama achieved is the exact outcome that was desired when Bush created the sanctions regime.
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On July 17 2017 05:02 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it. I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good? I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states.
The thing about US influence is that it is not always needed or wanted. We can't interject ourselves into every squabble in the world. Myanmar and some other South Asia places are going through the shit right now. Where are we? Africa has been going through some shit. Where are we?
Choosing ones battles is a trait of a patient person. Arab Spring could have gone a couple of different ways, and the best way was to leave America as far removed as possible while still being able to influence certain things in the region.
I don't see how Cuba made us weaker. We now have access to an entire island that has been effectually cut off from the developing world for 50 some odd years,. Corporations are already taking advantage of the lifting of the embargo. You can get a flight to Cuba from San Diego for $500. I think easing relations with Cuba will benefit a lot of people in both countries if it is handled with care.
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On July 17 2017 05:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:02 Sermokala wrote:On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it. I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good? I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states. Iran deal was a huge, huge deal for the world. After the Bush doctrine was declared Iran needed a nuclear weapon to guarantee its national sovereignty. Which sucked because nobody else wanted Iran to have a nuke. The other world powers followed US leadership into a sanctions regime to force Iran to the negotiating table. Over time it became clear the US didn't plan on invading Iran anyway as Iraq had gone badly wrong and so Iran went to the negotiating table because they didn't really want the nuke and they did want the sanctions to end. And then the US randomly forgot about the plan and just started threatening to invade Iran every year while never actually doing it and insisting that the sanctions would have to stay on and that they wouldn't negotiate. The rest of the world got pretty pissed that the US was basically forcing Iran to continue the nuclear program and that they'd all hopped on this US led plan only to have the US steer them towards bullshit island. Eventually the rest of the world started saying that they'd unilaterally end sanctions, whether or not Iran stopped their nuclear program, in order to get off Uncle Bush's wild ride. Obama redeemed the situation by steering the sanctions coalition back to the original plan, sanctions to make Iran negotiate, sanction relief for ending the nuclear program. The entire situation had become a case study in the failures of international American leadership. A plan that was written by America and executed by a team assembled by America failed at the moment of victory because America's political paralysis refused to allow them to accept the defined goals of the plan. The entire coalition devolved into infighting until the members threatened to blow the entire deal up rather than continue under American leadership. Anyone who thinks America was projecting strength and that Obama changed that needs just this one example to revise that opinion. Furthermore Iran acts as a strong regional counterbalance to SA, which is the state promoting the Wahhabism that causes all the problems. Furthermore Iran fucks up OPEC, which is great for the US in terms of oil security and fucks over US rivals, most notably Russia, SA, ISIS etc. I have literally no idea how you could argue that Iranian oil makes the US weaker but lower oil prices is fucking fantastic, both for the American putting gas in his car and as a punitive economic blow against Russia. Russia's economic collapse can be laid at the feet of Obama and his diplomacy.
But most of what you said about Iran can be described as "instead of doign the wrong thing he did the right thing. He didn't flip Iran to become our ally in the middle east like Nixon did to China. He made the deal he could have to get us out of a terrible spot that bush had put us in and left things at rougly the same long game policy that we've been working in one form or another sense their revolution.
It was a failure of US leadership and is the perfect example of overextension of the American empire likewise with iraq. I'm not saying it wasn't the smart or good thing to do I'm saying it was just the thing to do. Obama kept the previous relationship to SA's monarchy and kept the US opposed to Iran. He didn't fundamentally changed anything he just reacted and reposisioned us.
High oil prices means a stronger petrodollar and a stronger Us oil industry. Yes the Russian economic collapse is good but when has a bad Russian economy ever meant anything good? US foreign policy should be that a good economy means an empowered people that naturally turn to the pervasive and superior western cultural apparatus. Putin is bad but him falling will just make russia even worse.
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On July 17 2017 04:27 KwarK wrote:
Remember the Dijon mustard incident. Clearly Obama isn't one of us.
I heard he wore khakis once too. That's pretty much just as bad as sexually assaulting people and then bragging about it.
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EPT
