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On July 17 2017 05:27 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:02 Sermokala wrote:On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it. I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good? I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states. The thing about US influence is that it is not always needed or wanted. We can't interject ourselves into every squabble in the world. Myanmar and some other South Asia places are going through the shit right now. Where are we? Africa has been going through some shit. Where are we? Choosing ones battles is a trait of a patient person. Iran is a toss up simply for the fact that instigating them on the nuclear deal would have led to a worse outcome. Arab Spring could have gone a couple of different ways, and the best way was to leave America as far removed as possible while still being able to influence certain things in the region. I don't see how Cuba made us weaker. We now have access to an entire island that has been effectually cut off from the developing world for 50 some odd years,. Corporations are already taking advantage of the lifting of the embargo. You can get a flight to Cuba from San Diego for $500. I think easing relations with Cuba will benefit a lot of people in both countries if it is handled with care.
We're busy buying cheap stuff from Africa thanks to corrupted govrnments we support. Africa is perfect from a Western perspective. Fuck Iran who dared throwing away their puppet government. Anyway, Iran will solve itself, they keep sending as much youngsters as possible to university, just let them get more money for that.
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On July 17 2017 05:27 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:02 Sermokala wrote:On July 17 2017 04:48 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:34 Sermokala wrote:
He increased US standing in the world by not being Bush, He made people happy beacuse he was removing US influence in the world and for better or for worse made the US weaker in the world. This is total nonsense. Obama didn't retreat from the world. He engaged Iran and Cuba in diplomacy showing US leadership in both scenarios. He joined Britain and France in Libya, used American aid as an extremely effective tool for soft diplomacy in Egypt, reinforced the NATO presence in Eastern Europe, was very actively involved in creating the sanctions regime that responded to the crisis in Ukraine, was involved in the Paris climate treaty, the TPP was an Obama project, and so on and so on. This idea that the world liked Obama because Obama was weak is nonsense. The world liked Obama because America could be counted upon to exercise both leadership and prudence. It represented a strong America that would not ignore crises but also would not cause them. While half of America was desperate to exacerbate the crisis of the Iranian nuclear weapons project (but not attempt regime change, the only way it could be resolved without diplomacy) Obama brought the world back from the brink. That's the kind of stable and responsible leadership the world wants from America and Obama embodied it. I'm not saying he retreated from the world I'm saying he removed Us influence and made us weaker. Cuba and Iran are the better things that he did that maybe have made us weaker but will benifit us. The agriculture competition from cuba and increased global oil supply from iran are simple things to point to what makes us weaker. You can't tell me that he used the arab spring successfully for the US interests at the least he protected what we had in the most important part of the region. He used a joint effort with regards to eastern Europe and Ukraine and removed our influence by being the only one that negotiates these things. Again a for better or for worse thing. Paris was a plus and I don't really know if NATO in eastern Europe is a good thing or not. But in all these things he did was was logically and morally probably right. Is there something that can be pointed out as a bold or risky choice he made during his presidency that was good? I'm going to Ignore you used TPP as a positive for Obama out of respect. That monstrosity would have turned corporations into nation states. The thing about US influence is that it is not always needed or wanted. We can't interject ourselves into every squabble in the world. Myanmar and some other South Asia places are going through the shit right now. Where are we? Africa has been going through some shit. Where are we? Choosing ones battles is a trait of a patient person. Iran is a toss up simply for the fact that instigating them on the nuclear deal would have led to a worse outcome. Arab Spring could have gone a couple of different ways, and the best way was to leave America as far removed as possible while still being able to influence certain things in the region. I don't see how Cuba made us weaker. We now have access to an entire island that has been effectually cut off from the developing world for 50 some odd years,. Corporations are already taking advantage of the lifting of the embargo. You can get a flight to Cuba from San Diego for $500. I think easing relations with Cuba will benefit a lot of people in both countries if it is handled with care.
Cuba has a lot of agriculture that will weaken Californian and Floridian economies by putting a potentially large caribbean producer of their goods right next door to the Us. Cuban sugar alone can significantly hurt some sectors and once they become technologically and industrially more advanced their weaker currency will make the US markets obviously weaker. Most of the Embargo has been continued with the support of corporations in these markets.
Yes US influence is best for us when it is more concentrated and not overextended and best for the world when is in combination with other nations. The arab spring could have gone a few different ways but I don't belive it was best with America not involved with the result of its policies. If we would have supported a Military dictatorship in Egypt why didn't we signal that to the people when they were in the streets for weeks about it?
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United States41470 Posts
Your point was that Obama was weak. I showed how the existing US policy was a failing clusterfuck that made America look completely incapable of both action and leadership and how Obama recovered the entire situation and created a new coalition led by the US with firm commitments from the nations that had previously been threatening to undermine the sanctions regime to step in if Iran resumed their nuclear project. You promptly dismiss that as "instead of doing the wrong thing he did the right thing". You're right, he did the right thing. But it wasn't weakness, it was strength.
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On July 17 2017 04:48 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:41 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can. Trump wasn't notable at the time. Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service. I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would. You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with). There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover. Opposition politics is a great unifying principle. But now the argument is changing from "conservatives" to "conservative politicians" (of whom there are very few). You will not find a defense of the GOP from me, although I will point out that part of the GOP's issues is because there are so many different brands of Republican. That's one of the reasons they had no replacement; the others were because Obama was still president and they expected Hillary to win. Nothing having to do with racism.
lol, Funny that's what really launched him from his long time Democrat life into being the Republican superstar he is today.
I'd like to take this moment to remind people Democrats (and Republicans) knew the types of things Trump was doing before being president and had basically no problem with any of it, because he wasn't a politician. You think Hillary didn't know he was a groper when she was hanging with him at his wedding? You think Mark Cuban didn't know what kind of person Trump was when he loaned him his arena for free? Of course they knew, but so long as they thought it helped them personally they couldn't care less how terrible Trump was as a person.
Save Trump, I don't think there's a single person that can claim more credit for Trump than Clinton. That being said, do we need to go back to the pathetic responses from Republicans regarding Obama's country of origin.
Had they just shut it down when I said they should have in this very thread he would have been made the fool he is, instead everyone including the leaders of the house and senate for Republicans gave bullshit "I can't tell people what to think" responses (as if they don't spend most of their time saying that people should agree with them).
Republicans made a conscious choice to let the birtherism fester for political gain. Very few if any Republicans came out and called Trump the ridiculous, racist, moron he was for pushing that nonsense.
I won't say everyone who hated Obama did it because they were racist, but equally stupid is pretending it was just some small faction. That's not to say that had he been white they would have voted for him, but the visceral hate was often animated by how Obama upset the longstanding American tradition of white supremacy.
Upwards of 40% of Republicans have consistently said (and still do) that Obama was part of the most massive and twisted conspiracy and cover-up to make an illegal Kenyan immigrant the president of the US.
You can tell me that's not because they are racist (I know that's not true) but you can't pretend they are some small section of Republicans.
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My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected.
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On July 17 2017 05:49 Sermokala wrote:
My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected.
So many people think because Obama, the person, was loved that also his politics was loved. Which is simply not true
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On July 17 2017 05:23 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:12 LegalLord wrote:
Iran specifically is an acknowledgment of the waning power of the US more so than actually making the US weaker. The US got a worse deal there than they would have gotten two decades ago and they don't have as much to show for that whole attempt as they would like.
He wasn't the worst at FP, but his policy results left much to be desired. For reasons that are, to be fair, not entirely his fault. The Iran outcome Obama achieved is the exact outcome that was desired when Bush created the sanctions regime.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but to be fair, getting a deal to cease development of nuclear weapons agreement is a lot more effective earlier in the development cycle (i.e. Bush's era).
I'm ambivalent on the Iran deal and not informed enough to make judgments really, but one could make a reasonable argument that what Obama got would have been a victory in the Bush era, but by the Obama era hardly matters.
Not that that's necessarily Obama's fault either, or that the facts of where Iran's nuclear weapons development was in Bush era vs Obama era support that argument, but just throwing that out there.
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You can't blame the Democrats losing seats on Obama though. As we have seen, their message was fractured and they were riding that election high. They failed as a party, not because Obama did anything personally. He had the office for 1 year, not two (Elected in 2008, officially started 2009, lost seats the following year), and if it was because he pushed ACA through the House, then that's fine. I would rather have ACA than what we had before. Even the insurers seem to be fine with it. They pulled out of markets because there weren't enough people to insure or they couldn't get the costs down to a profitable level.
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On July 17 2017 05:54 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:49 Sermokala wrote:
My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected. So many people think because Obama, the person, was loved that also his politics was loved. Which is simply not true
No one is making that claim Sharkie. If it seemed I was, then that's my mistake for not being clear enough. There are things he did that I wasn't a fan of. But to say he could have done so much in the political climate surrounding him, is not fair. He passed so many EOs that it became normal. Not because he wanted to circumvent Congress, but because he had no choice if he wanted to get anything done.
I can point out a myriad of different reasons black people I know didn't like him and some reasons white people didn't like him. None having to do with his race. But his policies.
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On July 17 2017 05:49 Sermokala wrote:
My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected.
It's worth noting that the Birther charade that Trump spearheaded accelerated the destruction of civilized political discourse. People being only thinly-veiled racists by deriding and opposing any and everything Obama did, simply because he was black, and he was different, people accusing him of being a Muslim from [insert random African country here], and bitching and moaning about Obamacare didn't help a thing. It threw modern political discourse into an era where it's fine to simply launch attacks on people without anything to back it up, and play the victim when people call you on your shit or attack you in return.
Trump is the massive figurehead for the segment of America that would rather facts didn't exist, who are happier maintaining the status quo as long as it's beneficial to them, and attacking anything and anyone that would promise to change things, even if that means throwing us back to the recession era, in multiple ways.
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On July 17 2017 05:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 04:48 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:41 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can. Trump wasn't notable at the time. On July 17 2017 04:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service. I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would. You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with). There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover. Opposition politics is a great unifying principle. But now the argument is changing from "conservatives" to "conservative politicians" (of whom there are very few). You will not find a defense of the GOP from me, although I will point out that part of the GOP's issues is because there are so many different brands of Republican. That's one of the reasons they had no replacement; the others were because Obama was still president and they expected Hillary to win. Nothing having to do with racism. lol, Funny that's what really launched him from his long time Democrat life into being the Republican superstar he is today. I'd like to take this moment to remind people Democrats (and Republicans) knew the types of things Trump was doing before being president and had basically no problem with any of it, because he wasn't a politician. You think Hillary didn't know he was a groper when she was hanging with him at his wedding? You think Mark Cuban didn't know what kind of person Trump was when he loaned him his arena for free? Of course they knew, but so long as they thought it helped them personally they couldn't care less how terrible Trump was as a person. Save Trump, I don't think there's a single person that can claim more credit for Trump than Clinton. That being said, do we need to go back to the pathetic responses from Republicans regarding Obama's country of origin. Had they just shut it down when I said they should have in this very thread he would have been made the fool he is, instead everyone including the leaders of the house and senate for Republicans gave bullshit "I can't tell people what to think" responses (as if they don't spend most of their time saying that people should agree with them). Republicans made a conscious choice to let the birtherism fester for political gain. Very few if any Republicans came out and called Trump the ridiculous, racist, moron he was for pushing that nonsense. I won't say everyone who hated Obama did it because they were racist, but equally stupid is pretending it was just some small faction. That's not to say that had he been white they would have voted for him, but the visceral hate was often animated by how Obama upset the longstanding American tradition of white supremacy. Upwards of 40% of Republicans have consistently said (and still do) that Obama was part of the most massive and twisted conspiracy and cover-up to make an illegal Kenyan immigrant the president of the US. You can tell me that's not because they are racist (I know that's not true) but you can't pretend they are some small section of Republicans.
There's a lot of history distortion in this post. Your perspective is, needless to say, warped. I still recall you posting things from random kooky websites and asking me to answer for them. To the extent that birtherism was a thing, it was denounced by most (if not all, at the national level) GOP politicians that were asked about it. And boy did the media love to ask about it. Even Dinesh D'Souza, who made that Obama movie, said he was born in Hawaii. It really was a fringe position.
With regards to Trump, that birther thing came around at time that most Republicans were still trying to figure out wtf to do about Trump, and Trump himself was playing coy with it (to his shame). Trump saw an opening in the GOP, I fully believe that if he thought the Democrats were in worse shape than the GOP he would have run as a Democrat.
And what makes this racism nonsense even more absurd is that the fact that Obama's personal approval or likability almost always outdid the popularity of his policies, when polled. If anything, his race was a benefit. He certainly wouldn't have won the 2008 primary without it.
But if you really wanted to say that racism was a factor, it is obviously a more defensible statement then ZerOCoolSC2's original formulation.
Edit: fringe in the sense that it mattered to anyone. Again, like Russian hacking.
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On July 17 2017 06:01 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:49 Sermokala wrote:
My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected. It's worth noting that the Birther charade that Trump spearheaded accelerated the destruction of civilized political discourse. People being only thinly-veiled racists by deriding and opposing any and everything Obama did, simply because he was black, and he was different, people accusing him of being a Muslim from [insert random African country here], and bitching and moaning about Obamacare didn't help a thing. It threw modern political discourse into an era where it's fine to simply launch attacks on people without anything to back it up, and play the victim when people call you on your shit or attack you in return. Trump is the massive figurehead for the segment of America that would rather facts didn't exist, who are happier maintaining the status quo as long as it's beneficial to them, and attacking anything and anyone that would promise to change things, even if that means throwing us back to the recession era, in multiple ways.
There are always going to be reactionaries. In a democracy they are always going to have power. I don't like them but as long as the right doesn't court them to some degree every now and then they won't ever get elected or be represented. Let us pray that they keep having figureheads as incompetent and corupt as trump.
On July 17 2017 05:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You can't blame the Democrats losing seats on Obama though. As we have seen, their message was fractured and they were riding that election high. They failed as a party, not because Obama did anything personally. He had the office for 1 year, not two (Elected in 2008, officially started 2009, lost seats the following year), and if it was because he pushed ACA through the House, then that's fine. I would rather have ACA than what we had before. Even the insurers seem to be fine with it. They pulled out of markets because there weren't enough people to insure or they couldn't get the costs down to a profitable level.
As a democratic president hes the de facto leader of the democratic party. If anyone could have advocated for change he should have been able to sell it to his own party. He anyone could have kept the party on message and lead his party to greatness it has to be him in that position.
The ACA is something great though. I don't think you can complain that he never got anything done and if he sacrificed his legislative ability for just that I think he can be proud. I just wish he was able to go just one step further and have that public option somehow.
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On July 17 2017 06:02 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2017 04:48 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:41 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can. Trump wasn't notable at the time. On July 17 2017 04:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 03:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Obama was hated because he was black. There was so much good that he did that overshadows anything negative that might have happened. Sure, he dropped a ton of drone strikes, but he didn't have military men dying left and right (some died for sure, not saying there were no casualites).
US-World relations were probably never higher than when he was in office. We went from "Yes We Can" to "Lock Her Up" and "Build that Wall". For every step forward we took during Obama's presidency, we've taken 5 back under Trump. And it's only 6 months in.
The hyperbole surrounding trump is warranted because there has never been this much corruption and lack of respect for the office of the president before. This administration is trying to undo everything we've accomplished simply out of spite. DeVos is trying to take education back to segregation times, EPA is trying to outdo China in pollution, DoJ is trying to lock up more people and criminalize anything they can to deepen the PIC (prison industrial complex), and trump is just a moron trying to hand the country over to the highest bidder. If China or NK offered him anything, he'd jump on the opportunity. Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked? That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service. I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would. You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with). There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover. Opposition politics is a great unifying principle. But now the argument is changing from "conservatives" to "conservative politicians" (of whom there are very few). You will not find a defense of the GOP from me, although I will point out that part of the GOP's issues is because there are so many different brands of Republican. That's one of the reasons they had no replacement; the others were because Obama was still president and they expected Hillary to win. Nothing having to do with racism. lol, Funny that's what really launched him from his long time Democrat life into being the Republican superstar he is today. I'd like to take this moment to remind people Democrats (and Republicans) knew the types of things Trump was doing before being president and had basically no problem with any of it, because he wasn't a politician. You think Hillary didn't know he was a groper when she was hanging with him at his wedding? You think Mark Cuban didn't know what kind of person Trump was when he loaned him his arena for free? Of course they knew, but so long as they thought it helped them personally they couldn't care less how terrible Trump was as a person. Save Trump, I don't think there's a single person that can claim more credit for Trump than Clinton. That being said, do we need to go back to the pathetic responses from Republicans regarding Obama's country of origin. Had they just shut it down when I said they should have in this very thread he would have been made the fool he is, instead everyone including the leaders of the house and senate for Republicans gave bullshit "I can't tell people what to think" responses (as if they don't spend most of their time saying that people should agree with them). Republicans made a conscious choice to let the birtherism fester for political gain. Very few if any Republicans came out and called Trump the ridiculous, racist, moron he was for pushing that nonsense. I won't say everyone who hated Obama did it because they were racist, but equally stupid is pretending it was just some small faction. That's not to say that had he been white they would have voted for him, but the visceral hate was often animated by how Obama upset the longstanding American tradition of white supremacy. Upwards of 40% of Republicans have consistently said (and still do) that Obama was part of the most massive and twisted conspiracy and cover-up to make an illegal Kenyan immigrant the president of the US. You can tell me that's not because they are racist (I know that's not true) but you can't pretend they are some small section of Republicans. There's a lot of history distortion in this post. Your perspective is, needless to say, warped. I still recall you posting things from random kooky websites and asking me to answer for them. To the extent that birtherism was a thing, it was denounced by most (if not all, at the national level) GOP politicians that were asked about it. And boy did the media love to ask about it. Even Dinesh D'Souza, who made that Obama movie, said he was born in Hawaii. It really was a fringe position. With regards to Trump, that birther thing came around at time that most Republicans were still trying to figure out wtf to do about Trump, and Trump himself was playing coy with it (to his shame). Trump saw an opening in the GOP, I fully believe that if he thought the Democrats were in worse shape than the GOP he would have run as a Democrat. And what makes this racism nonsense even more absurd is that the fact that Obama's personal approval or likability almost always outdid the popularity of his policies, when polled. If anything, his race was a benefit. He certainly wouldn't have won the 2008 primary without it. But if you really wanted to say that racism was a factor, it is obviously a more defensible statement then ZerOCoolSC2's original formulation. Edit: fringe in the sense that it mattered to anyone. Again, like Russian hacking.
"There's a lot of history distortion in this post." Was that a disclaimer for the rest of your post?
I mean the best you would get is garbage like this:
"It's not my job to tell the American people what to think," Boehner said on NBC's "Meet The Press" when asked about a recent focus group of Iowa voters shown on Fox News during which several said they believe Obama is Muslim.
"The state of Hawaii has said he was born there. That's good enough for me," Boehner said. "The president says he's a Christian. I accept him at his word."
Source
I guess you think that's "denouncing"? I'd call that a stretch.
You keep calling it fringe, but don't refute that 40%+ Republicans believe it. Are you saying 40%+ of the Republican party is "fringe"? Because I don't think that's what fringe means.
That people disliked him for other/legitimate reasons doesn't mean that others didn't have a special hatred because he was black.
I mean I suppose you could take how more Republicans said they knew Ted Cruz was born in the US than Obama and just say ~40%+ of the Republican party is categorically stupid instead, but you're not going to convince me (or anyone without racist tendencies) racist republicans/Birthers are a fringe
40%+ isn't fringe no matter how you slice it.
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United States41470 Posts
Eventually he'll realize that he can just flip it and start bragging about record disapproval numbers.
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On July 17 2017 06:15 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 06:01 NewSunshine wrote:On July 17 2017 05:49 Sermokala wrote:
My point was that Obama wasn't bold or took any risks that he could have with the power that he had. Instead of the Idealism that he sold people on in his campaign he delivered pragmatism. Instead of any great victories he delivered stability and recovery. He was a good president, not a great president or a bad president but one that you can compare yourself again to see how you're doing. Hes like the Big mac of presidents. The thing is is that he had the capability domestically to become the next Reagan. He made winning the presidency look easy and showed the way that any democrat could win the presidency for an age after him.
And yet he lost congress in two years and couldn't get a democrat after him elected. It's worth noting that the Birther charade that Trump spearheaded accelerated the destruction of civilized political discourse. People being only thinly-veiled racists by deriding and opposing any and everything Obama did, simply because he was black, and he was different, people accusing him of being a Muslim from [insert random African country here], and bitching and moaning about Obamacare didn't help a thing. It threw modern political discourse into an era where it's fine to simply launch attacks on people without anything to back it up, and play the victim when people call you on your shit or attack you in return. Trump is the massive figurehead for the segment of America that would rather facts didn't exist, who are happier maintaining the status quo as long as it's beneficial to them, and attacking anything and anyone that would promise to change things, even if that means throwing us back to the recession era, in multiple ways. There are always going to be reactionaries. In a democracy they are always going to have power. I don't like them but as long as the right doesn't court them to some degree every now and then they won't ever get elected or be represented. Let us pray that they keep having figureheads as incompetent and corupt as trump. Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 05:56 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You can't blame the Democrats losing seats on Obama though. As we have seen, their message was fractured and they were riding that election high. They failed as a party, not because Obama did anything personally. He had the office for 1 year, not two (Elected in 2008, officially started 2009, lost seats the following year), and if it was because he pushed ACA through the House, then that's fine. I would rather have ACA than what we had before. Even the insurers seem to be fine with it. They pulled out of markets because there weren't enough people to insure or they couldn't get the costs down to a profitable level. As a democratic president hes the de facto leader of the democratic party. If anyone could have advocated for change he should have been able to sell it to his own party. He anyone could have kept the party on message and lead his party to greatness it has to be him in that position. The ACA is something great though. I don't think you can complain that he never got anything done and if he sacrificed his legislative ability for just that I think he can be proud. I just wish he was able to go just one step further and have that public option somehow.
I agree with you. I view Obama's handling of the Democratic party as a hands off approach until asked. When people asked him to campaign for/with them, he did. I'm just saying that you can't wholly blame him for the Democratic loss. They need to remember what got Obama elected and channel that energy again. Get that policy in order and present it to the people. Make everything they do as transparent as possible and truly advocate for the people. Slow down on the donation taking and just play politics as clean as this political climate will allow.
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On July 17 2017 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2017 06:02 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 05:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 17 2017 04:48 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:41 KwarK wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked?
That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. You can't think of a single notable Republican politician who was a birther? I can. Trump wasn't notable at the time. On July 17 2017 04:41 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:35 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:25 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:21 Introvert wrote:On July 17 2017 04:14 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On July 17 2017 04:04 Introvert wrote:
[quote]
Is this a general statement? How many things did he do that a conservative should have liked?
That second paragraph is so insane that you make conservatives who despise Trump (like myself) defend him. It's ridiculous. Watching this thread melt down when he won was hilarious, but it turns out that the outrage is still being maintained 9 months later. It's a general statement and a general observation. You don't have to agree with me and I hope you would bring a counter argument to the table. If you remove yourself from the political lines and see it as a civilian, things were looking to be better for you under Obama than under trump. If the things his administration put into place takes hold and we don't overturn it, you're going to be worse off and so will the generations to follow. He gave us a basic structure of universal healthcare. Not perfect but it was a start. We need to make it better. He gave us respectable environmental regulations. He increased our popularity abroad and got things done that needed to be done (concessions and all that notwithstanding for some countries). He gave us a chance to further American interests and standing. I'm not angry he won, I'm angry people seem to be okay with how this administration is running. How many vacant positions are we at now? How many keep resigning? How many countries are looking at us like our days are numbered? How many conservative politicians are breaking rank and doing their own thing without trump approval? If you think defending him puts you on a higher moral ground or whatever, then go for it. You defend someone who abuses and embarrasses his position on a world stage. "Counter-argument"? You just said he was hated because he was black, an absurd statement that you should back up. Surely you can see why conservatives or others on the right wouldn't like his presidency, right? Or is that list you have not up for debate? Take Obamacare for instance (the primary reason the House was lost in 2010 and never returned). Nah bro, it was undeniably a good thing! All those people who kicked the Democrats out hated Obamacare because its namesake is a black man. And you can't compare what people thought of Obama to what they think of Trump in this context. Obama was president first. He was "despised" for what he did, when he did it. Conservatives denied his citizenship and still did even after he released his birth certificate. Every racial epithet towards black people were used towards Obama. You know all of this to be true (not trying to use a broad brush, but indulge me). People hate Obamacare. But they love the ACA. Why is that? What he did is nothing compared to what trump is doing. 6 months. I wonder how far he can take America in 4 years, in either direction. I'm watching with morbid curiosity. Some conservatives/Republicans were on the birther train. No one notable. It's like Democrats thinking Russians hacked voting machines. It's called "partisanship." And it's intellectually dishonest to ignore any of the many, many reasons people gave for disapproving of Obama's presidency because people used racial slurs on twitter. I know it's just easier to blame racism, but it doesn't correspond to reality and thus will be a continuing issue for the Democrat party. People loved Obama, but they hated his policies. Must be racism too! You have yet to acknowledge that people on the other side could have (and did have) legitimate reason to despise his presidency. People kept the Democrats out of power (not Obama, who they re- elected) because the ACA destroyed healthcare and insurance for many of the them when they all got their letters notifying them of change of service. I did acknowledge that they could have disliked him because of his policies. But conservative politicians haven't given the people who voted them in anything they said they would. You can say I'm playing the race card all you care. I'm saying that it was the foundation for the opposition to his policies and why they (GOP) never came up with anything to supplement or replace it (or are still struggling with). There are myriad problems with the Democratic party that have been talked about ad nauseam in this thread, so there's not point in going over it again. They can't play the moral high ground without coming off as elitist, and they can't sink to the GOP level without looking petty. It is literally a lose-lose situation for them at the moment and I have no idea how they can recover. Opposition politics is a great unifying principle. But now the argument is changing from "conservatives" to "conservative politicians" (of whom there are very few). You will not find a defense of the GOP from me, although I will point out that part of the GOP's issues is because there are so many different brands of Republican. That's one of the reasons they had no replacement; the others were because Obama was still president and they expected Hillary to win. Nothing having to do with racism. lol, Funny that's what really launched him from his long time Democrat life into being the Republican superstar he is today. I'd like to take this moment to remind people Democrats (and Republicans) knew the types of things Trump was doing before being president and had basically no problem with any of it, because he wasn't a politician. You think Hillary didn't know he was a groper when she was hanging with him at his wedding? You think Mark Cuban didn't know what kind of person Trump was when he loaned him his arena for free? Of course they knew, but so long as they thought it helped them personally they couldn't care less how terrible Trump was as a person. Save Trump, I don't think there's a single person that can claim more credit for Trump than Clinton. That being said, do we need to go back to the pathetic responses from Republicans regarding Obama's country of origin. Had they just shut it down when I said they should have in this very thread he would have been made the fool he is, instead everyone including the leaders of the house and senate for Republicans gave bullshit "I can't tell people what to think" responses (as if they don't spend most of their time saying that people should agree with them). Republicans made a conscious choice to let the birtherism fester for political gain. Very few if any Republicans came out and called Trump the ridiculous, racist, moron he was for pushing that nonsense. I won't say everyone who hated Obama did it because they were racist, but equally stupid is pretending it was just some small faction. That's not to say that had he been white they would have voted for him, but the visceral hate was often animated by how Obama upset the longstanding American tradition of white supremacy. Upwards of 40% of Republicans have consistently said (and still do) that Obama was part of the most massive and twisted conspiracy and cover-up to make an illegal Kenyan immigrant the president of the US. You can tell me that's not because they are racist (I know that's not true) but you can't pretend they are some small section of Republicans. There's a lot of history distortion in this post. Your perspective is, needless to say, warped. I still recall you posting things from random kooky websites and asking me to answer for them. To the extent that birtherism was a thing, it was denounced by most (if not all, at the national level) GOP politicians that were asked about it. And boy did the media love to ask about it. Even Dinesh D'Souza, who made that Obama movie, said he was born in Hawaii. It really was a fringe position. With regards to Trump, that birther thing came around at time that most Republicans were still trying to figure out wtf to do about Trump, and Trump himself was playing coy with it (to his shame). Trump saw an opening in the GOP, I fully believe that if he thought the Democrats were in worse shape than the GOP he would have run as a Democrat. And what makes this racism nonsense even more absurd is that the fact that Obama's personal approval or likability almost always outdid the popularity of his policies, when polled. If anything, his race was a benefit. He certainly wouldn't have won the 2008 primary without it. But if you really wanted to say that racism was a factor, it is obviously a more defensible statement then ZerOCoolSC2's original formulation. Edit: fringe in the sense that it mattered to anyone. Again, like Russian hacking. " There's a lot of history distortion in this post." Was that a disclaimer for the rest of your post? I mean the best you would get is garbage like this: Show nested quote +"It's not my job to tell the American people what to think," Boehner said on NBC's "Meet The Press" when asked about a recent focus group of Iowa voters shown on Fox News during which several said they believe Obama is Muslim.
"The state of Hawaii has said he was born there. That's good enough for me," Boehner said. "The president says he's a Christian. I accept him at his word." SourceI guess you think that's "denouncing"? I'd call that a stretch. You keep calling it fringe, but don't refute that 40%+ Republicans believe it. Are you saying 40%+ of the Republican party is "fringe"? Because I don't think that's what fringe means. That people disliked him for other/legitimate reasons doesn't mean that others didn't have a special hatred because he was black. I mean I suppose you could take how more Republicans said they knew Ted Cruz was born in the US than Obama and just say ~40%+ of the Republican party is categorically stupid instead, but you're not going to convince me (or anyone without racist tendencies) racist republicans/Birthers are a fringe 40%+ isn't fringe no matter how you slice it.
He's answering got ya questions, as is usual for this subject. Trying to tie the entire party to birtherism. I mean he did spend several sentences on it making very clear his view. But I know, a single choice quote for a no longer present Republican is evidence of widespread facilitation.
As I qualified in my edit, it's fringe in the sense that it doesn't matter to very many people. That's the reason I don't go around touting polls showing people believe stupid things, I don't think most of those things inform the voting decisions of a whole lot of people. Things like anti-vax or GMO scare mongering are much more important, in that sense.
I think if anything the Ted Cruz question is evidence against your thesis: really, the cause of these beliefs is ignorance. Trump went birther on Cruz and tried made it known to EVERYONE that Cruz was born in Canada. That doesn't help your argument at all.
Edit:
On July 17 2017 07:19 KwarK wrote:
I think the Ted Cruz example proves the opposite point. More Republicans believe Ted Cruz was born in America than Obama. If anything Ted Cruz is the perfect white control group to measure the impact of Obama's blackness against.
As I said earlier, the actual cause of these primarily is partisanship and associated phenomenon.
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United States41470 Posts
I think the Ted Cruz example proves the opposite point. More Republicans believe Ted Cruz was born in America than Obama. If anything Ted Cruz is the perfect white control group to measure the impact of Obama's blackness against.
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On July 17 2017 07:19 KwarK wrote:
I think the Ted Cruz example proves the opposite point. More Republicans believe Ted Cruz was born in America than Obama. If anything Ted Cruz is the perfect white control group to measure the impact of Obama's blackness against.
I agree with that comparison, and a similar question could be asked about John McCain (although needed to be worded differently, based on his special birth situation).
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On July 17 2017 05:39 Sermokala wrote:
Cuba has a lot of agriculture that will weaken Californian and Floridian economies by putting a potentially large caribbean producer of their goods right next door to the Us. Cuban sugar alone can significantly hurt some sectors and once they become technologically and industrially more advanced their weaker currency will make the US markets obviously weaker. Most of the Embargo has been continued with the support of corporations in these markets.
Cuban sugar might hurt the domestic sugar industry, but we should more than able to make up for it with a stronger exports of candy and other high sugar processed foods.
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