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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On May 08 2016 01:45 emc wrote: considering his decisions can alter the fate of a pro players destiny or not, I'd say he's hesitant for good reason. Frankly, I dont think he gives a shit about proplayers destiny a lot of players were cut off completely during the WoL broodlord infestor bullshit anyway. | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8300 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 08 2016 02:11 Beelzebub1 wrote: I mean, it's not like no top level Zergs are winning at all vs. Protoss, but I would say the Immortal keeps Protoss more then their fair share of strength in the match up being able to (don't flame me please) A move through Lurker armies. I really don't want to see the Colossus buffed because it's a terrible no skill a move unit, would much rather see Stalkers become more effective general combat units, maybe with some type of 200/200 research ability at Twilight that gives them +1 range or some little extra boost vs. light units so Protoss can stop opening Phoenix and ruining my life? While I'm talking about the Colossus being a terrible unit, just remove the damn Swarm Host from the game entirely, Zerg needs help with air not with ground or siege ability, if it's not going to be reworked into an anti air unit then just scrap it, the unit isn't fun to play with or against, it's just a failed crap gimmick unit that should have never made it into HOTS beta, let alone made it OUT of the beta. Buff the Stalker, buff the Infestor, buff the Cyclone, start buffing the units that take skill to use David, not all of the retarded a move splash "good vs. everything" units. I'm not sure how infestor takes skill. It just casts a spell like high templar. The only skill it may require is for you to predict where to land your fungle growth after WoL. | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
On May 08 2016 04:55 Shield wrote: I'm not sure how infestor takes skill. It just casts a spell like high templar. The only skill it may require is for you to predict where to land your fungle growth after WoL. How is the collossus take ANY less skill to use then a thor, brood lord, bc, carrier ultra????? | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1756 Posts
Collosus were hated because they were a staple, always used, always powerful. Blizzard just wants to make them a viable alternative to an already varied protoss arsenal. I think that's fine. | ||
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WhaleOFaTALE1
47 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On May 08 2016 05:00 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: All this collosus hate. It is a fairly unique unit and it needs some love. This coming from a masters terran. People say it is designed horrible /just a deathball unit. Please freaking tell me how it is designed ANY differently from a thor/ultra/immortal in that regard. They all wreck ground and thats what they are meant to do. I think it is arguablly a more onteresting unit then the thor (with cliff walk and being able to be hit by air) Immortals are cheaper and easier to get, meaning Protoss gets to invest more heavily in gateway units. Gateway-heavy armies are inherently less deathballish than Colossus heavy armies, because Adepts, Zealots and Blink Stalkers all can function fairly well on their own if their sole job isn't to protect 3-4 colossi (they don't need to do that same thing with immortals). | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On May 08 2016 05:00 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: All this collosus hate. It is a fairly unique unit and it needs some love. This coming from a masters terran. People say it is designed horrible /just a deathball unit. Please freaking tell me how it is designed ANY differently from a thor/ultra/immortal in that regard. They all wreck ground and thats what they are meant to do. I think it is arguablly a more onteresting unit then the thor (with cliff walk and being able to be hit by air) Although I agree that the Colossus does not deserve as much hate as it gets, and I always like to see units being useful, I also have to say that the Colossus is indeed designed horribly. (talking about the pre LotV Colossus here) Its the combination of all of its features that makes it incredibly hard to balance. It has high range, high damage, high hitpoints, splash and it can stand on top of other units. Either of these features is already pretty powerful. Having all of the above at once is just a formula for disaster. Of course mass Colossus was a great tactic because everything about that unit is great. Its one weakness is that it can be targeted by anti-air, but that is simply not enough. The other high tech ground units usually not have splash which makes target firing more important. You dont want to waste your thor attacks on zerglings or marines. With the Colossus splash damage you dont really care what is being attacked. They are also big and bulky which makes it hard to mass them (unlike the Colossus which can stack with other ground units). And their range is short enough so they have to get within range of enemy units when they want to attack. | ||
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feanaro
United States123 Posts
On May 08 2016 05:42 RoomOfMush wrote: Although I agree that the Colossus does not deserve as much hate as it gets, and I always like to see units being useful, I also have to say that the Colossus is indeed designed horribly. (talking about the pre LotV Colossus here) Its the combination of all of its features that makes it incredibly hard to balance. It has high range, high damage, high hitpoints, splash and it can stand on top of other units. Either of these features is already pretty powerful. Having all of the above at once is just a formula for disaster. Of course mass Colossus was a great tactic because everything about that unit is great. Its one weakness is that it can be targeted by anti-air, but that is simply not enough. The other high tech ground units usually not have splash which makes target firing more important. You dont want to waste your thor attacks on zerglings or marines. With the Colossus splash damage you dont really care what is being attacked. They are also big and bulky which makes it hard to mass them (unlike the Colossus which can stack with other ground units). And their range is short enough so they have to get within range of enemy units when they want to attack. I would be ok with a small range nerf: maybe make thermal lance 100/100 and bring the (upgraded) range down to 8, or make it 7 range from the start with no upgrade. I also think nerfing the base damage and adding +light damage would help the focus firing dynamics: you wouldn't want to waste shots on roaches when you could be bringing down hydras, for example. | ||
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
I would rather have the Immortal of old. That Immortal was designed to attack into Lurkers or to stand under Liberation Zones. The old Immortal would laugh while fighting entrenched Lurkers or while walking under Luberatoration Zones as it would cap any shield damage to 10 per volley. With that being said, its ability didn't help versus units like Zerglings, Marines, or Zealots whose attacks never exceeded 10 damage per shot. It had a noticeable weakness. And that was the point. It faired extremely well versus certain units and very poorly versus others. But now the community wants to nerf the Immortal because it's too good overall. If that is true, then I say bring back the old Immortal. No one complained about that unit. And frankly, I think Protoss would welcome it back with open arms. I know I would. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 08 2016 05:00 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: All this collosus hate. It is a fairly unique unit and it needs some love. This coming from a masters terran. People say it is designed horrible /just a deathball unit. Please freaking tell me how it is designed ANY differently from a thor/ultra/immortal in that regard. They all wreck ground and thats what they are meant to do. I think it is arguablly a more onteresting unit then the thor (with cliff walk and being able to be hit by air) I'll break it down why the colossus is a horribly designed unit in a fairly easy to get format. 1st The colossus is a long range fighting/siege unit. 2nd As a range unit it has far more range then the standard armies at no inherit drawback like, fragility or mobility. 3rd As a siege unit the colossus doesn't have any mobility issues, in fact it its extremely versatile, able to move in between shots, over your own units and even up and down cliffs. 4th Due to its characteristics the colossus has extremely few ground based counters and the most reliable counters come from the air in the form of vikings and corruptors. 5th Due to the need to have strong counters to the colossus both terran and zerg air units were heavily influenced, terran by having vikings be extremely long range and anti-armored, corruptors by making them durable with anti-massive. 6th Due to this design direction air vs air dynamics for all races is skewed and borring, instead of having dynamic air vs air wars like we had in BW with the old Wraith vs Muta/Scourge or Corsair/Scout vs Muta/Scourge, we're reduced to having clumps of slow moving and uninteresting air units. So, not only is the colossus a badly designed unit, but it also has the dubious honor of warping the entire design of a entire class of units around it, with horrible consequences if I may add. LotV TvP/PvT may be in a weird place from a few points of view, but without a doubt it is orders of magnitude better now that the colossus doesn't see any play any more. We actually have interesting dynamics of armies posturing around the maps, being active, looking for openings, forcing errors with faints and jukes etc. The current dynamics of bio vs disruptors is also way better, while the disruptor can be incredibly punishing and maybe downright broken in a lot of situations, it still creates unit interactions and considerations that are orders of magnitude better than bio vs colossus. Against disruptors micro matters, you can run, split or lift your armies to safety. Against disruptors terrain matters, you can actually use the fact that the disruptors don't shoot up or down cliffs to maneuver around the army and attack locations in ways you could never dream of vs colossus. No, the colossus deserves no love, it deserves to be deleted from the game permanently, its wrought nothing but misery through its existence. | ||
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feanaro
United States123 Posts
On May 08 2016 06:22 Destructicon wrote: I'll break it down why the colossus is a horribly designed unit in a fairly easy to get format. 1st The colossus is a long range fighting/siege unit. 2nd As a range unit it has far more range then the standard armies at no inherit drawback like, fragility or mobility. 3rd As a siege unit the colossus doesn't have any mobility issues, in fact it its extremely versatile, able to move in between shots, over your own units and even up and down cliffs. 4th Due to its characteristics the colossus has extremely few ground based counters and the most reliable counters come from the air in the form of vikings and corruptors. 5th Due to the need to have strong counters to the colossus both terran and zerg air units were heavily influenced, terran by having vikings be extremely long range and anti-armored, corruptors by making them durable with anti-massive. 6th Due to this design direction air vs air dynamics for all races is skewed and borring, instead of having dynamic air vs air wars like we had in BW with the old Wraith vs Muta/Scourge or Corsair/Scout vs Muta/Scourge, we're reduced to having clumps of slow moving and uninteresting air units. No, the colossus deserves no love, it deserves to be deleted from the game permanently, its wrought nothing but misery through its existence. So rather than concluding that the colossus deserves to be removed, why couldn't you suggest a fix to some of these issues? People have already brought up the idea of reducing the range, why don't you throw out a number that you think would work? If you think it should be more vulnerable, why not give us an idea how much less hp/shields would be the right balance? | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 08 2016 06:10 Cloak wrote: If Immortals are going to get nerfed, then Liberators should get an Adept-style adjustment. Liberators are a clearly more OP ground presence. Can reduce their damage from 85 to 80 so they don't two shot Stalkers. And Protoss endgame is not unstoppable. A well played Ghost/Viking with 10-12 Liberators and then Turret spam is unstoppable. Of course that army is unstoppable if you don't have tempests. | ||
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On May 08 2016 07:55 seemsgood wrote: Of course that army is unstoppable if you don't have tempests. Vikings destroy Tempests. Liberators can aggressively zone out any ground support for Tempests, Tempests too slow to reposition in time. Only retreating Storms can push back the aggression, but that's where solid Ghost micro comes into play and eventually Protoss runs out of HTs. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 08 2016 07:20 feanaro wrote: So rather than concluding that the colossus deserves to be removed, why couldn't you suggest a fix to some of these issues? People have already brought up the idea of reducing the range, why don't you throw out a number that you think would work? If you think it should be more vulnerable, why not give us an idea how much less hp/shields would be the right balance? Range nerfs aren't the way forward, they'll be too polarizing, either range is too short and the colossus are useless since its much, much easier to close on them and kill them before they can be effective, or the range is too big and they are too strong, there is no middle ground with a unit like that. What I can suggest is fixing its broken design, which would involve giving it a mobile mode, where it can walk up and down cliffs and over units but has short range, and a long range mode where its static (like tanks), but can't move. That would provide it with a suitable weakness without its dumb gimmic counter and would open the room to rework all air units. Now if you want to complain that makes it too similar to siege tanks, well sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. The design is just that bad, it requires a significant rework, not a numbers tweak. Edit: Oh and such a rework would make colossus too similar to tanks/libs/lurkers in terms of design, and protoss needs neither a zone control unit, (they already have that from disruptors) nor do they need more aoe (they have shitloads of that already). The most suitable change really is just removing them, it just isn't worth it to work on them. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On May 08 2016 08:23 Cloak wrote: Vikings destroy Tempests. Liberators can aggressively zone out any ground support for Tempests, Tempests too slow to reposition in time. Only retreating Storms can push back the aggression, but that's where solid Ghost micro comes into play and eventually Protoss runs out of HTs. That is all about late game unit control problem than balance problem.I disagree with any suggestion which can effect terran late game vs P. Unless pro players prove i'm wrong about late game TvP. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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