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Charoisaur
Germany15956 Posts
On May 09 2016 07:26 CheddarToss wrote: Watching Hydra v Neeb I understand why Colossus needs to get a buff. It's so that Zerg can't just get Banes and Hydras and a-move to victory. no that's not the reason colossi should be buffed. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On May 09 2016 07:41 Charoisaur wrote: no that's not the reason colossi should be buffed. Well, at least we agree that they should be buffed. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On May 09 2016 07:26 CheddarToss wrote: Watching Hydra v Neeb I understand why Colossus needs to get a buff. It's so that Zerg can't just get Banes and Hydras and a-move to victory. Like Storm never existed. On May 09 2016 07:46 CheddarToss wrote: Well, at least we agree that they should be buffed. They should be rather get totally removed and replaced by something, that does not make protoss playing stale, defensive and boring again. The heavy investment of colossus + their tendency to snowball with other colossus and "meatshield" made Protoss to what they have become and force the complete game into a wrong direction in all PvX Matchups. Never again. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On May 09 2016 08:18 Clonester wrote: Like Storm never existed. They should be rather get totally removed and replaced by something, that does not make protoss playing stale, defensive and boring again. The heavy investment of colossus + their tendency to snowball with other colossus and "meatshield" made Protoss to what they have become and force the complete game into a wrong direction in all PvX Matchups. Never again. 1) Hydras hit waaaay earlier than storm. It's like people know nothing about the Protoss race and how long Protoss research takes because of old chrono, which equalized this deficit. 2) Fair enough. Then gateway units need a buff. But I guess that is also out of the question, because Protoss does not deserve a fair chance to win and because of the misguided view of large parts of the community that Protoss is even then OP, when PvZ winrate is at 45%? | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On May 09 2016 08:26 CheddarToss wrote: 1) Hydras hit waaaay earlier than storm. It's like people know nothing about the Protoss race and how long Protoss research takes because of old chrono, which equalized this deficit. 2) Fair enough. Then gateway units need a buff. But I guess that is also out of the question, because Protoss does not deserve a fair chance to win and because of the misguided view of large parts of the community that Protoss is even then OP, when PvZ winrate is at 45%? 1) By the time you're executing a strong Hydra/Baneling attack "waaaaay" before Storm is out you pretty much have to drone up very heavily with no punishment which I think is safe to say, was a mistake on the Protoss end. Foreign Protoss players like Neeb are (no disrespect intended they are obviously GM level players) not the highest caliber of players to make calls like, "Oh yea Neeb got bopped that's obviously imba" at all. I would never say the Immortal is imbalanced if I see it wrecking players like Firecake or Nerchio both of whom I'm big fans of, but I will say it's imbalanced if Zerg's like Dark or Soo are getting wrecked by it, that's a problem, the other is not, and the difference is obvious. 2) At least everyone see's the point of removing Colossus from the game, the unit just sucks, sure it's better if all units are viable but theres way better underused units to buff then the ultimate deathball unit. Buff the Stalker, buff the Infestor or Ghost, buff or change Cyclones, don't buff the damn Colossus. edited-grammarT_T | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On May 09 2016 08:26 CheddarToss wrote: 1) Hydras hit waaaay earlier than storm. It's like people know nothing about the Protoss race and how long Protoss research takes because of old chrono, which equalized this deficit. 2) Fair enough. Then gateway units need a buff. But I guess that is also out of the question, because Protoss does not deserve a fair chance to win and because of the misguided view of large parts of the community that Protoss is even then OP, when PvZ winrate is at 45%? In this specific match, Storm could have been a thing. Storm does not take much longer then Robo (Twilight) - RoboBay (Temp-Arch) - Range upgrade (Storm). Hydras might hit before storm, but so they do in Hydra-Bane or Hydra-Ling way before Colossus. Hydra Bane is not made to be countered by these 2 tec routes at the beginning. Also Hydra-Bane gets countered by ForceFields and a Neeb has shown that he is inferiour in this game and didnt played protoss to the fullest. Hydra Bane costs a large amount of gas, you cannot play Hydra-Ravager-Bane in numbers. Scouting Hydra Bane and thus playing sentrys in a decent number makes you winning this moments. But when you fail to scout the 3 base Hydra-Bane play, then you lose, yeah. Or when there are Broodlords on the map, you counter em with Void Rays and never spend the 350 gas for Storm tech... you lose. Thats nothing wrong with the balance, just with the way Neeb played this. Its seriously stupid to take Balance approaches from a WCS Event and statistics that are leading larger parts from western online and offline events. If you want to buff Protoss at a certain position at the moment, you will need to nerf the immortal at the same day. You will not agree, I know, the rest will. And one dream that will never happen: "Buffed gateway units". 1/2 year of Stalker sentry and 3 month of adept prism ripped that dream forever and a day. You might hope for Upgrades in Temp-Arch for Zelots, but thats all Blizzard will ever do in that way. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
Right now Protoss has a dire lack of anti-light AoE in their arsenal and Colossus can easily be tweaked to fill this void. And no storm doesn't count, which is essentially tier 4 tech. Something like buffing Colossus range to 7 or 8, removing the range upgrade and giving them +light damage would make a lot of sense, giving Colossus a place in the mid-game vs. light army compositions but the lower range plus lower scaling on attack upgrades would make them a lot weaker in the late game than their WoL/HotS counterparts. edit: This is more from a game design perspective. From a balance perspective Protoss players haven't really adjusted vs. Dark's ling/bane into broods playstyle yet. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On May 09 2016 08:37 Beelzebub1 wrote: 1) By the time you're executing a strong Hydra/Baneling attack "waaaaay" before Storm is out you pretty much have to drone up very heavily with no punishment which I think is safe to say, was a mistake on the Protoss end. Foreign Protoss players like Neeb are (no disrespect intended they are obviously GM level players) not the highest caliber of players to make calls like, "Oh yea Neeb got bopped that's obviously imba" at all. I would never say the Immortal is imbalanced if I see it wrecking players like Firecake or Nerchio both of whom I'm big fans of, but I will say it's imbalanced if Zerg's like Dark or Soo are getting wrecked by it, that's a problem, the other is not, and the difference is obvious. 2) At least everyone see's the point of removing Colossus from the game, the unit just sucks, sure it's better if all units are viable but theres way better underused units to buff then the ultimate deathball unit. Buff the Stalker, buff the Infestor or Ghost, buff or change Cyclones, don't buff the damn Colossus. edited-grammarT_T 1) Zest got wrecked by far inferior players, such as Snute and Departure. So according to your argument, Zerg is OP, right? And as for Storm, check again, it takes ages to get to Templar Archives and another eon to research Storm. It is the equivalent of Hive tech. So in what universe can you have it ready against mass Hydras with Banes? That's like suggesting to Zergs to make Broodlords to counter Blink all-ins. 2) I have waited for Protoss to get buffed since release of this bloody game. All the while all stats show that Protoss is in dire need of a buff. After all this time I really don't care what buff David will decide to give to Protoss. But a buff is needed, that much is certain. @Clonester I'm not referencing any specific match. Since Neeb didn't play Protoss to the fullest, how about Zest? Is he also a noob? Because last I checked he didn't fare or look any better vs. Snute and Departure. Two Zergs, which objectively are nowhere near his level. So if the best Protoss in the world can't beat 2nd tier Zerg players, what hope do other Protoss players have? "Its seriously stupid to take Balance approaches from a WCS Event and statistics that are leading larger parts from western online and offline events." No, it is not. And you know why? Because Koreans play on different maps! They essentially play a different game than the rest of the world. And if this game were balanced on ladder maps, Koreans would also start using them. If anything, referencing GSL results as proof of balance is wrong. "If you want to buff Protoss at a certain position at the moment, you will need to nerf the immortal at the same day. You will not agree, I know, the rest will." PvZ is at 46.5% this week, like so many weeks before. And these stats also include Korean games, which were played on more balanced maps. So in reality, on ladder maps, Protoss is even weaker. I don't see how any part of Protoss can be OP. "And one dream that will never happen: "Buffed gateway units". 1/2 year of Stalker sentry and 3 month of adept prism ripped that dream forever and a day. You might hope for Upgrades in Temp-Arch for Zelots, but thats all Blizzard will ever do in that way." Sadly I think you are right. David Kim will listen to anti-Protoss whine, to players who never stop complaining about how overpowered Protoss is, even when Protoss is clearly weaker than Zerg. One of those people is Nerchio. Never misses a thread to complain about Immortals, even though he wins vs most Protoss while playing only with the mouse. I guess he wants his job to be even easier than it already is. | ||
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BigRedDog
461 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On May 09 2016 08:38 Clonester wrote: In this specific match, Storm could have been a thing. Storm does not take much longer then Robo (Twilight) - RoboBay (Temp-Arch) - Range upgrade (Storm). Hydras might hit before storm, but so they do in Hydra-Bane or Hydra-Ling way before Colossus. Hydra Bane is not made to be countered by these 2 tec routes at the beginning. Also Hydra-Bane gets countered by ForceFields and a Neeb has shown that he is inferiour in this game and didnt played protoss to the fullest. Hydra Bane costs a large amount of gas, you cannot play Hydra-Ravager-Bane in numbers. Scouting Hydra Bane and thus playing sentrys in a decent number makes you winning this moments. But when you fail to scout the 3 base Hydra-Bane play, then you lose, yeah. Or when there are Broodlords on the map, you counter em with Void Rays and never spend the 350 gas for Storm tech... you lose. Thats nothing wrong with the balance, just with the way Neeb played this. Its seriously stupid to take Balance approaches from a WCS Event and statistics that are leading larger parts from western online and offline events. If you want to buff Protoss at a certain position at the moment, you will need to nerf the immortal at the same day. You will not agree, I know, the rest will. And one dream that will never happen: "Buffed gateway units". 1/2 year of Stalker sentry and 3 month of adept prism ripped that dream forever and a day. You might hope for Upgrades in Temp-Arch for Zelots, but thats all Blizzard will ever do in that way. Storm doesn't seem very good at all against what Hydra was doing. If he saw storm, he would just morph lurkers, because contrary to popular belief, storm doesn't do that much damage. It has a radius of 1.5 (fungal is radius 2 for comparison). It does 80 damage over 4 seconds, if you don't move. 2 seconds is the most it would take someone to micro out, so they will usually only deal 40 max. The only thing not moving in a zerg army are lurkers, and they have 200 hp. That's 3 storms per lurker if they are spread correctly, and why you cannot efficiently beat lurkers with storm. | ||
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Gen.Rolly
United States200 Posts
As for the Immortal, seems strong in every pro Korean PvZ, wouldn't mind the old Immortal to be honest. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
Something like buffing Colossus range to 7 or 8, removing the range upgrade and giving them +light damage would make a lot of sense, giving Colossus a place in the mid-game vs. light army compositions but the lower range plus lower scaling on attack upgrades would make them a lot weaker in the late game than their WoL/HotS counterparts. I don't think that most people realize how much less damage colossus does compared to WOL and HOTS - it's around 1.5x - 1.55x lower against many targets when +3 attack and +3 armor are in play even though the cost in time, minerals, gas and supply is the same. A small redesign into a reliable anti-light unit with some splash damage would be great, IMO - especially if you're talking about nerfing the immortal which is the core unit in PvZ that the entire meta is based around right now (right from the start of the game where you're often dropping a stargate to safely be able to play double robo immortal) | ||
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90ti
United States100 Posts
As an old school toss player, id love to use toss again but zerg is so much easier to play and less punishing. Somehow the rotisserie chicken lib still hasnt had its ground dmg touched yet...very strange. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
For the colossi I believe there are many options that would make it interesting, like changing his attack from horizontal to vertical, which would make it stronger to control choke point but weak in a deathball vs a concave, or limiting its range between 6 and 9 for example. For the SwarmHost... Well as an harass option is not worth it, and as a core unit leads to boring play, I'd like to see the SH as a AA unit, the brewing something like scourge rather than locust, and remove parasite bomb for it. And, come on, raise the supply cost of the tempest. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
On May 09 2016 22:14 Vanadiel wrote: Colossi and Swarmhost are alike, in the sense that they are flawed by design. Nerf or buff can only make units viable or not, but do not change the fondamental design of the unit. I agree that Blizzard recognized this, because they changed the design of the swarmhost by making it a harass unit. However that did not work out either, so it does need to change again. For the colossi I believe there are many options that would make it interesting, like changing his attack from horizontal to vertical, which would make it stronger to control choke point but weak in a deathball vs a concave, or limiting its range between 6 and 9 for example. For the SwarmHost... Well as an harass option is not worth it, and as a core unit leads to boring play, I'd like to see the SH as a AA unit, the brewing something like scourge rather than locust, and remove parasite bomb for it. And, come on, raise the supply cost of the tempest. Colossus with vertical damage would make them more true to the war of the worlds movie too, I just rewatched it a couple weeks ago and I'm confident the lasers do indeed move away ("vertically") from the robot  | ||
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coolmiyo
51 Posts
even if some of the changes are not the best, u have to patch the game and see what happens. if he doesnt act like this, the game will stay the same forever. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On May 09 2016 23:09 coolmiyo wrote: i like david kim is more confident and he finally takes the command of the game, patching it no matter what people thinks. even if some of the changes are not the best, u have to patch the game and see what happens. if he doesnt act like this, the game will stay the same forever. Yup. Involving the community was the worst decision Blizzard has ever made. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On May 09 2016 23:11 InfCereal wrote: Yup. Involving the community was the worst decision Blizzard has ever made. Such a shortsighted point of view. Big companies like Valve and Riot also take plenty of feedback from the community and it is usually for the better. The difference? The other companies know how to filter the constructive criticism from the bad one. Blizzard is fucking awful at tacking any sort of criticism, constructive or not. If they listen to all the criticism of course you get these god awful patches where nothing makes any sense, but if they don't listen to any criticism at all the game never evolves. Right now I have no idea of which direction the game is going because of the super erratic way Blizzard patches, but it most certainly is not good. Now stop blaming the community for Blizzard's design choices, its their job to not only listen to it, but also to filter the information. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On May 09 2016 23:20 Destructicon wrote: Such a shortsighted point of view. Big companies like Valve and Riot also take plenty of feedback from the community and it is usually for the better. The difference? The other companies know how to filter the constructive criticism from the bad one. Blizzard is fucking awful at tacking any sort of criticism, constructive or not. If they listen to all the criticism of course you get these god awful patches where nothing makes any sense, but if they don't listen to any criticism at all the game never evolves. Right now I have no idea of which direction the game is going because of the super erratic way Blizzard patches, but it most certainly is not good. Now stop blaming the community for Blizzard's design choices, its their job to not only listen to it, but also to filter the information. Both dota and league keep making volvo/riot money. SC2 does what for Blizzard, maybe a SP mission pack? Possible monetization of the game through unit skins could help alot in that direction. Also, dota's spectator options put sc2's to shame. Maybe a sort of monetization could make Blizz throw some money at the game and give us spectator options similar to dota. This would also mean a larger team for balancing, because i'm pretty convinced the balance team of sc2 is pretty small atm. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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