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On May 10 2016 23:25 NinjaToss wrote:
My own two cents, I really like the Colossus and if it's a slight buff then I'm okay with it. People seems to think Blizz wants to bring the Colossus back to its HotS version, I believe Blizz doesn't want that.
Well seeing how their idea was to increase the dps, I'm not so sure. Either the change is so slight that it isn't really a buff, or they change basically back to HotS levels.
High dps against potentially multiple targets from range is why the colossus has been too powerful in the past. Unless it is changed so that it is not as effective against late game compositions, it will be continue to be a lategame oriented, deathballish unit. I think reducing the base damage and adding +light damage is the best way to do this, as lategame armies tend to be composed primarily of armored units (or at least, like the ghost, neither armored nor light). It doesn't fit 100% (a lot of zergs still use hydras for anti-air in the later stages of the game, although ideally they would be switching to queens) but I don't see a better way. Plus, if you are nerfing the immortal you really, really need to give protoss a unit that can hold off ling/bane/hydra timings.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
Well seeing how their idea was to increase the dps, I'm not so sure. Either the change is so slight that it isn't really a buff, or they change basically back to HotS levels.
Maybe you don't realize how substantial the nerfs were. The damage wasn't just lowered, the upgrade scaling was halved as well.
Pre-legacy = 15 damage + 2*3 (attack upgrades) for 21 damage at +3 attack and then take off 3-4 for armor with enemy at +3 armor.
Final damage = 17-18.
Legacy = 12 damage +3 (attack upgrades) for 15 damage at +3 attack and then take off 3-4 for armor with enemy at +3 armor.
Final damage is 11-12.
That's a 1.5x - 1.55x nerf in those conditions with zero compensation related to the unit directly. You also have to keep in mind that chronoboost was heavily nerfed and things like upgrade and tech timings for half of the protoss race are still built around the old economy and old chronoboost - colossus play feels that a lot.
With no upgrades in play, the nerf is 1.25x - 1.27x by raw damage.
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High dps against potentially multiple targets from range is why the colossus has been too powerful in the past.
It did full damage to all units at range 9 and liberators, lurkers and ravagers were not in the game. I also think that making a portion of the damage anti-light only would help with that, less of a unit that you want against anything in a high supply army just because it does a lot of splash damage.
I'm not a fan of the WOL+HOTS colossus - if we're balancing around some powerful AOE being in the game (like disruptor) i'd like to have the best unit designs possible.
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A default-8-range, 1.15x rate-of-fire buffed colossus would be way way better in the midgame (a lot more than merely noticable) but still a shadow of what the WOL+HOTS Colossi were before you're supply capped or at +3 attack. I don't even think that going that far would be neccesary, it's just an example of what you could do. You could even make it cost 8 supply if there's any worry about its role in an army that's approxing max supply 
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Another option that blizz could use to redesign the collosus is some sort of hazard field type attack. By making the hazard fields not stack, it provides natural mechanic that disincentivizes massing. You could also make the hazard field targetable (perhaps with a horizontal and vertical line option), which would IMO create some interesting engagement dynamics with army positioning as well as synergize with force fields (imagine the clutch play potential here!).
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I really wish they would just fix the Disruptor and make it the go to Robotics splash unit and just be done with the Colossus, it just adds an extremely boring and a move element to the game, this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
Chargelots..
Immortals..
Ultralisks..
Hellbats..
Thors..(strong is debatable for this one definitely)
Colossus..
Carriers..
Void Rays..
Corruptors..
Literally the last thing this game needs is more a move units, buff units that take skill to use and differentiate and make them useful for what the race is struggling against. If Protoss is struggling against ling/bling compositions but wrecking armored comps then tone the Immortal down while toning the Disruptor up, it's really not as complex as David likes to make it sound.
Also, can we have all the old proleague maps? I'd kill to have King Sejong Station and Overgrowth back in the game, those maps absolutely poop all over maps like Prion and Ulrena.
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On May 11 2016 02:29 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I really wish they would just fix the Disruptor and make it the go to Robotics splash unit and just be done with the Colossus, it just adds an extremely boring and a move element to the game, this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
It can't be fixed because it is a poor design that doesn't replace the Colossus.
As I said earlier in response to you, for it to be effective versus certain units that the Colossus was effective versus, it can't do friendly fire. It is the reason why Ling/Bane is working so well now, because without the Colossus Protoss has limited AOE options in the mid game to fight it, and no Protoss is going to use the Disruptor against Lings that are attacking their own units. I wouldn't be surprised if Zealot heavy PvP builds become common in the future, because the Disruptor won't be effective versus Chargelots either (in fact, I'm calling that right now if the Colossus doesn't get a buff).
Finally, the Disruptor is more effective against Roaches and slower moving armored units than faster moving light units, which is where the Colossus shined. And Protoss already has the Immortal to counter armored units... so yeah...
The Disruptor is a very poorly designed unit, it overlaps with other units and it doesn't replace the Colossus at all. Right now people are realizing the gaping hole the Colossus has left, and that is why Ling/Bane is working.
On May 10 2016 04:46 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 03:17 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 07 2016 02:29 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Colossus - Would rather then Disruptor get worked on, it's infinitely more interesting to watch and play against then the Colossus.
. The Disruptor is literally disruptive to Protoss. It requires so much micro that it means you can't micro all the other casters Protoss has. Also, for it to be effective versus certain units, it can't do friendly fire. It is the reason why Ling/Bane is working so well now, because without the Colossus Protoss has limited AOE options in the mid game to fight it. No it means that you can't micro the other casters. Micro-ing the disruptors perfectly and the army at the same time is what set apart Zest from every other protoss player in the world. Micro-ing the disruptors *almost perfectly and the army at the same time is what set apart Dear from every other protoss -except Zest- player in the world. I mean, isn't it what we wanted and asked over the last five years? A game riche, complexe and impossible to master really perfectly that when someone get close you can truly appreciate the depth of his skill and see how that player can dominate the game?
Well I don't agree that aiming shots is the way to get a rich complex RTS game, that is more for a MOBA...but that is a matter of opinion.
As to the first point I think I misstated myself. The Disruptor doesn't require that much micro individually that is overwhelming, but when put with all the other caster units Protoss, it is impossible and I have to see any Protoss use them all close perfectly. Please link a video of near perfect play if you got one, where a player is microing Sentries, Disruptors, Stalkers, the MSC, High Templars, Disruptors and Phoenixes in unison (or at least 6 of 7 of those units).
Every Protoss player, no matter how fast they are, must spend time microing a Disruptor. And that time cannot be used to cast other spells. That is how the game works. And at every level, that matters, because even at the highest levels it means a Terran player splitting drops across the map will be that more effective against a Disruptor versus a Colossus.
That is a fact. It doesn't matter if you are Dear or Zest or me. Unless you are cheating, you can't do two things at once.
And if people could micro all the casters effectively, Archon/Chargelot/Immortal wouldn't be the go-to composition versus Zerg at the top and in Archon mode! It is the result of the spaghettification of Starcraft that TheDwf warned us about.
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On May 11 2016 02:55 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 02:29 Beelzebub1 wrote:
I really wish they would just fix the Disruptor and make it the go to Robotics splash unit and just be done with the Colossus, it just adds an extremely boring and a move element to the game, this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
It can't be fixed because it is a poor design that doesn't replace the Colossus. As I said earlier in response to you, for it to be effective versus certain units that the Colossus was effective versus, it can't do friendly fire. It is the reason why Ling/Bane is working so well now, because without the Colossus Protoss has limited AOE options in the mid game to fight it, and no Protoss is going to use the Disruptor against Lings that are attacking their own units. I wouldn't be surprised if Zealot heavy PvP builds become common in the future, because the Disruptor won't be effective versus Chargelots either (in fact, I'm calling that right now if the Colossus doesn't get a buff). Finally, the Disruptor is more effective against Roaches and slower moving armored units than faster moving light units, which is where the Colossus shined. And Protoss already has the Immortal to counter armored units... so yeah... The Disruptor is a very poorly designed unit, it overlaps with other units and it doesn't replace the Colossus at all. Right now people are realizing the gaping hole the Colossus has left, and that is why Ling/Bane is working. Show nested quote +On May 10 2016 04:46 Vanadiel wrote:On May 10 2016 03:17 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 07 2016 02:29 Beelzebub1 wrote:
Colossus - Would rather then Disruptor get worked on, it's infinitely more interesting to watch and play against then the Colossus.
. The Disruptor is literally disruptive to Protoss. It requires so much micro that it means you can't micro all the other casters Protoss has. Also, for it to be effective versus certain units, it can't do friendly fire. It is the reason why Ling/Bane is working so well now, because without the Colossus Protoss has limited AOE options in the mid game to fight it. No it means that you can't micro the other casters. Micro-ing the disruptors perfectly and the army at the same time is what set apart Zest from every other protoss player in the world. Micro-ing the disruptors *almost perfectly and the army at the same time is what set apart Dear from every other protoss -except Zest- player in the world. I mean, isn't it what we wanted and asked over the last five years? A game riche, complexe and impossible to master really perfectly that when someone get close you can truly appreciate the depth of his skill and see how that player can dominate the game? Well I don't agree that aiming shots is the way to get a rich complex RTS game, that is more for a MOBA...but that is a matter of opinion. As to the first point I think I misstated myself. The Disruptor doesn't require that much micro individually, but when put with all the other caster units Protoss, it is impossible and I have to see any Protoss use them all close perfectly (please link a video of near perfect play if you got one). Every Protoss player, no matter how fast they are, must spend time microing a Disruptor. And that time cannot be used to cast other spells. That is how the game works. And at every level, that matters, because even at the highest levels it means a Terran player splitting drops across the map will be that more effective against a Disruptor versus a Colossus. That is a fact. It doesn't matter if you are Dear or Zest or me. Unless you are cheating, you can't do two things at once. And if people could micro all the casters effectively, Archon/Chargelot/Immortal wouldn't be the go-to composition versus Zerg at the top. It is the result of the spaghettification of Starcraft that TheDwf warned us about.
Were you responding to me about friendly fire? lol I guess I've seen the Disruptor used so few times that I didn't even realize it did friendly fire?
That is just flat out retarded, maybe they could at least try to remove friendly fire to see if it makes any difference in it's viability?
I don't know, I'd rather the design team just swallow their pride, make a bold move and say, "Hey, the Disruptor is really bad and no matter how much it get's buffed or nerfed it's going to be bad, were going to put in the Reaver for a test map and really get alot of feedback on it" or something along those lines.
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That would certainly be a big start. I also think you're probably gonna need to nerf the damage, and allow players to detonate the shots early.
But I'm not on the design team.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
Chargelots..
Immortals..
Ultralisks..
Hellbats..
Thors..(strong is debatable for this one definitely)
Colossus..
Carriers..
Void Rays..
Corruptors..
You forgot zergling, roach, hydralisk in there. They're even more simplistic than chargelots, immortals & void rays because they don't have activate abilities.
I don't think that the disruptor turned out particularly badly but it's definately one of the hardest units in the game to control and use and has some weaknesses that the colossus did not have - mainly the friendly fire (enemy gets on top of your stuff? Can't shoot yourself..) and the way that it's highly effective against slow units but cannot reliably hit fast units like zerglings and to some extent stimmed marines etc.
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I think the Colossi buff is great. Because of these, maybe PvT get a bit more changed in the matchup with this. Really nice Patch
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On May 11 2016 03:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
Chargelots..
Immortals..
Ultralisks..
Hellbats..
Thors..(strong is debatable for this one definitely)
Colossus..
Carriers..
Void Rays..
Corruptors.. You forgot zergling, roach, hydralisk in there. They're even more simplistic than chargelots, immortals & void rays because they don't have activate abilities. I don't think that the disruptor turned out particularly badly but it's definately one of the hardest units in the game to control and use and has some weaknesses that the colossus did not have - mainly the friendly fire (enemy gets on top of your stuff? Can't shoot yourself..) and the way that it's highly effective against slow units but cannot reliably hit fast units like zerglings and to some extent stimmed marines etc.
That's a falsity, at least compared to chargelots. You have to make your own concave with hydra and roaches, chargelots micro themselves and firm their own concave. Try a moving roaches and hydra and watch them ball up with half of the army just squirming around not doing anything, a move chargelots and they all connect and engage.
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United Kingdom20345 Posts
On May 11 2016 04:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 03:32 Cyro wrote:this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
Chargelots..
Immortals..
Ultralisks..
Hellbats..
Thors..(strong is debatable for this one definitely)
Colossus..
Carriers..
Void Rays..
Corruptors.. You forgot zergling, roach, hydralisk in there. They're even more simplistic than chargelots, immortals & void rays because they don't have activate abilities. I don't think that the disruptor turned out particularly badly but it's definately one of the hardest units in the game to control and use and has some weaknesses that the colossus did not have - mainly the friendly fire (enemy gets on top of your stuff? Can't shoot yourself..) and the way that it's highly effective against slow units but cannot reliably hit fast units like zerglings and to some extent stimmed marines etc. That's a falsity, at least compared to chargelots. You have to make your own concave with hydra and roaches, chargelots micro themselves and firm their own concave. Try a moving roaches and hydra and watch them ball up with half of the army just squirming around not doing anything, a move chargelots and they all connect and engage.
And ball up? You need to control carefully to allow for adequate surface area. It's at least as challenging as hydralisk control
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 08 2016 06:22 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2016 05:00 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote:
All this collosus hate. It is a fairly unique unit and it needs some love. This coming from a masters terran. People say it is designed horrible /just a deathball unit. Please freaking tell me how it is designed ANY differently from a thor/ultra/immortal in that regard. They all wreck ground and thats what they are meant to do. I think it is arguablly a more onteresting unit then the thor (with cliff walk and being able to be hit by air) I'll break it down why the colossus is a horribly designed unit in a fairly easy to get format. 1st The colossus is a long range fighting/siege unit. 2nd As a range unit it has far more range then the standard armies at no inherit drawback like, fragility or mobility. 3rd As a siege unit the colossus doesn't have any mobility issues, in fact it its extremely versatile, able to move in between shots, over your own units and even up and down cliffs. 4th Due to its characteristics the colossus has extremely few ground based counters and the most reliable counters come from the air in the form of vikings and corruptors. 5th Due to the need to have strong counters to the colossus both terran and zerg air units were heavily influenced, terran by having vikings be extremely long range and anti-armored, corruptors by making them durable with anti-massive. 6th Due to this design direction air vs air dynamics for all races is skewed and borring, instead of having dynamic air vs air wars like we had in BW with the old Wraith vs Muta/Scourge or Corsair/Scout vs Muta/Scourge, we're reduced to having clumps of slow moving and uninteresting air units. So, not only is the colossus a badly designed unit, but it also has the dubious honor of warping the entire design of a entire class of units around it, with horrible consequences if I may add. LotV TvP/PvT may be in a weird place from a few points of view, but without a doubt it is orders of magnitude better now that the colossus doesn't see any play any more. We actually have interesting dynamics of armies posturing around the maps, being active, looking for openings, forcing errors with faints and jukes etc. The current dynamics of bio vs disruptors is also way better, while the disruptor can be incredibly punishing and maybe downright broken in a lot of situations, it still creates unit interactions and considerations that are orders of magnitude better than bio vs colossus. Against disruptors micro matters, you can run, split or lift your armies to safety. Against disruptors terrain matters, you can actually use the fact that the disruptors don't shoot up or down cliffs to maneuver around the army and attack locations in ways you could never dream of vs colossus. No, the colossus deserves no love, it deserves to be deleted from the game permanently, its wrought nothing but misery through its existence.
You are definitely wrong about one thing. The Colossus was never designed to be hit by air units. Blizzard only introduced a patch near the end of the WoL Beta that allowed air units to target the COlossus. THis was well after the roles/statistics of the air units were established.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2016 04:13 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 03:32 Cyro wrote:this game already has sooo many no skill a move units that are almost always extremely strong.
Chargelots..
Immortals..
Ultralisks..
Hellbats..
Thors..(strong is debatable for this one definitely)
Colossus..
Carriers..
Void Rays..
Corruptors.. You forgot zergling, roach, hydralisk in there. They're even more simplistic than chargelots, immortals & void rays because they don't have activate abilities. I don't think that the disruptor turned out particularly badly but it's definately one of the hardest units in the game to control and use and has some weaknesses that the colossus did not have - mainly the friendly fire (enemy gets on top of your stuff? Can't shoot yourself..) and the way that it's highly effective against slow units but cannot reliably hit fast units like zerglings and to some extent stimmed marines etc. That's a falsity, at least compared to chargelots. You have to make your own concave with hydra and roaches, chargelots micro themselves and firm their own concave. Try a moving roaches and hydra and watch them ball up with half of the army just squirming around not doing anything, a move chargelots and they all connect and engage.
This is false. Chargelots do not form their own concave any more than any other melee unit in SC2. You might as well make the same baseless example over Ultras and Zerglings. All of these units will run headlong 1 at a time into the opponents army depending on the angle of the engagement.
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EPT
