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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
- damage per second is improved as Blizzard suggests - range is increased by +1 That way, protoss won't be helpless vs lurkers after immortal nerf. Immortal's balance is closely tied to lurker's balance in my opinion. You can't nerf one without the other. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On May 07 2016 15:39 NKexquisite wrote: Cyclone supply increase to what... 4? It's already the most useless 3 supply unit ever created.... As if massing cyclones would be a good strategy in some way... The state of the cyclone is so confusing... You forget swarm host, at least cyclon help to deal with warp prism and oracle, can hit and run gateway units. Honestly, i exchange my 4 supply SH vs your 4 supply Cyclon. A unit which can both target air and ground and zone the units with a great 25dps isn't useless at all, specially if the cost is decreased. | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On May 07 2016 20:52 Shield wrote: I think immortal nerf will make sense if colossus is buffed as: - damage per second is improved as Blizzard suggests - range is increased by +1 That way, protoss won't be helpless vs lurkers after immortal nerf. Immortal's balance is closely tied to lurker's balance in my opinion. You can't nerf one without the other. That would make Colossi stronger than they were in WoL and HotS, meaning Protoss would go back to Blink Stalker/Colossus deathballs. I'm pretty sure we should avoid that. Colossus armies are inevitably deathballs because Colossi are more expensive and require way more ground support units around them than Immortals do, and Immortals are complemented much more easily with zealot/adept/templar armies which are also good at multiple engagements rather than one big fight. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 07 2016 21:02 Teoita wrote: That would make Colossi stronger than they were in WoL and HotS, meaning Protoss would go back to Blink Stalker/Colossus deathballs. I'm pretty sure we should avoid that. Colossus armies are inevitably deathballs because Colossi are more expensive and require way more ground support units around them than Immortals do, and Immortals are complemented much more easily with zealot/adept/templar armies which are also good at multiple engagements rather than one big fight. Yes, hence why I said when immortal nerf would make sense. I'm against immortal nerf. | ||
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BaronVonOwn
299 Posts
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AvonMexicola
Netherlands36 Posts
I am getting so tired of being called a guy that plays a skill less a mover race when I have to constantly fight swaths of mm and hydra lurker. This is what happens to protoss in PvZ when the immortal get's nerfed and the colossus does NOT get a buff. Zerg makes a bunch of hydra's, Zerg turns half of them into lurkers, zerg amoves them into Protosses 3rd and presses the burrow button on the lurkers. GG. No skill required. But what about Disruptors I hear you say? They counter Lurkers! Yes 2 disruptors can kill 1 lurker every 21 seconds. So by the time you kill 4 lurkers everything and everyone you know and love as a Protoss is dead, That is if Zerg is playing with one hand and is to lazy to unborrow and burrow said lurkers on a slightly different spot. So when the Immortal get's nerfed I bet you PvZ is going to change into Protoss desperately doing 2 base all inns vs zerg in a pathetic attempt to kill them before the lurkers come out. Off course we still need this all in to include phoenix because otherwise Muta's will mutilate us to death before the lurkers even come out. Because Terrans unlike marines we have stalkers, they have the ability to make Muta's cry from Laughter at their AA ability. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On May 07 2016 20:52 Shield wrote: I think immortal nerf will make sense if colossus is buffed as: - damage per second is improved as Blizzard suggests - range is increased by +1 That way, protoss won't be helpless vs lurkers after immortal nerf. Immortal's balance is closely tied to lurker's balance in my opinion. You can't nerf one without the other. I totally think the opposite about the colossus range. Reducing it, like just removing thermal lance could guarantee that it is not massed in a death ball style. For instance, colossus range should remain inferior to lurker's range. Also, instead of increasing speed (applies to all units) I'd rather see an increase against light, say 12(+3) instead of 12(+1) (hots was 15(+2)) That way it can be used against Dark's mass ling bane mid game - against which stats seemed helpless - but still remains semi useless in late game. The key imho is to manage to make the coloss a mid game unit only that gets obsolete when the opponent hits tier 3 maybe its armor can be reduced too, to make it too squishy for late game??? Anyway, people saying that bringing colossus back would only mean death balls everywhere again seriously lack imagination.... | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On May 07 2016 22:56 Gwavajuice wrote: I totally think the opposite about the colossus range. Reducing it, like just removing thermal lance could guarantee that it is not massed in a death ball style. For instance, colossus range should remain inferior to lurker's range. Also, instead of increasing speed (applies to all units) I'd rather see an increase against light, say 12(+3) instead of 12(+1) (hots was 15(+2)) That way it can be used against Dark's mass ling bane mid game - against which stats seemed helpless - but still remains semi useless in late game. The key imho is to manage to make the coloss a mid game unit only that gets obsolete when the opponent hits tier 3 maybe its armor can be reduced too, to make it too squishy for late game??? Anyway, people saying that bringing colossus back would only mean death balls everywhere again seriously lack imagination.... Colossi are an immense investment and suck ass in small engagements, so if you take out other options early on (like immortals) you force protoss to do everything in their power to protect their investment, ie mass blink stalker/sentry and deathball it up. It's simply how the unit functions. | ||
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Klowney
Sweden277 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On May 07 2016 20:42 Teoita wrote: For the love of everything that's nerdy and awesome in the universe please don't make me build fucking Colossi again, not right after i just started playing again, and having fun because that unit is gone. Please. Not sure how i feel about the Immortal nerf. On the one hand, it does outshine everything else Protoss has in PvZ...on the other, the matchup seems just fine right now balance wise, so i don't know why zergs (Kespa zergs specifically) are so up in arms about Immortals. because zerg that isnt named Dark cant win a macro ZvP its like BL/inf PvZ except the other way around | ||
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highsis
259 Posts
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feanaro
United States123 Posts
On May 07 2016 23:01 Teoita wrote: Colossi are an immense investment and suck ass in small engagements, so if you take out other options early on (like immortals) you force protoss to do everything in their power to protect their investment, ie mass blink stalker/sentry and deathball it up. It's simply how the unit functions. This is part of the reason I suggested reducing the cost of thermal lance (hell, we already have to sink 200/200 into robotics bay) so that a less powerful colossus would still be viable in the midgame without ruining the lategame. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On May 07 2016 23:58 Ej_ wrote: because zerg that isnt named Dark cant win a macro ZvP its like BL/inf PvZ except the other way around Actually it's the other way around. Just a couple of days ago Departure beat Zest 3:1 (Kung Fu Cup) and it looked ezpz. Second class Zerg utterly wrecking the best Protoss in the world. That is the state of PvZ balance. | ||
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Comedy
489 Posts
Brood lords are pretty good vs immortals right? If only protoss air didnt shrek everything combined with 1-2 oracles, storm feedback and archons. Swarmhost I feel very meh about it. when I play Zerg I'm not going to use swarmhosts, the unit has run it's course and just isn't fun. I'd rather see it deleted altogether to get some redemption for 2014. I'd rather see zerg and protoss air interaction change, or tempest + Broodlord supply both increased. Anything that prevents pvz from getting to that impossible protoss air deathball stage. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On May 08 2016 00:25 CheddarToss wrote: Actually it's the other way around. Just a couple of days ago Departure beat Zest 3:1 (Kung Fu Cup) and it looked ezpz. Second class Zerg utterly wrecking the best Protoss in the world. That is the state of PvZ balance. And even, if there are 5 or 15 protoss in Korea, who are able to keep it even against Z; among mortals Protoss clump up in the lower leagues and Z clump up in the higher leagues on a completely unprecedented level. Colossus buff might help with that imbalance, so whoever is against it, at least offer an alternative solution. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
Good luck against immortals then. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Without a fresh start, a fresh mind, they will never get anything solid anymore. They stuck so deep in the woods, what they cant find out anymore. | ||
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Empirimancer
Canada1024 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On May 07 2016 02:40 Charoisaur wrote: His statements don't sound like he has a lot of confidence in his decisions... considering his decisions can alter the fate of a pro players destiny or not, I'd say he's hesitant for good reason. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1005 Posts
On May 07 2016 23:58 Ej_ wrote: because zerg that isnt named Dark cant win a macro ZvP its like BL/inf PvZ except the other way around I mean, it's not like no top level Zergs are winning at all vs. Protoss, but I would say the Immortal keeps Protoss more then their fair share of strength in the match up being able to (don't flame me please) A move through Lurker armies. I really don't want to see the Colossus buffed because it's a terrible no skill a move unit, would much rather see Stalkers become more effective general combat units, maybe with some type of 200/200 research ability at Twilight that gives them +1 range or some little extra boost vs. light units so Protoss can stop opening Phoenix and ruining my life? While I'm talking about the Colossus being a terrible unit, just remove the damn Swarm Host from the game entirely, Zerg needs help with air not with ground or siege ability, if it's not going to be reworked into an anti air unit then just scrap it, the unit isn't fun to play with or against, it's just a failed crap gimmick unit that should have never made it into HOTS beta, let alone made it OUT of the beta. Buff the Stalker, buff the Infestor, buff the Cyclone, start buffing the units that take skill to use David, not all of the retarded a move splash "good vs. everything" units. | ||
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