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On October 05 2015 20:36 FeyFey wrote:
What do you mean the past couple of years, it has been like for the decade I am on the internet. With time you learn the signs if a person doesn't want to talk and everything. We don't see our opponents facial expression and everything, just the text they write. You also learn how to not approach people.
Couple of years of SC2, i.e. 5 years exactly. I was referring to SC2-related norms.
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Well main reason why you are raging (hard) is because of houdcounter units and design.
just one of thousend (including design) examples; which one is hitting hard on you?
(1) you lost your game because of stupid wm hits.
(2) you lost your game because of better micro/plan of opponent.
Sc2 offers ton of things like (1), barely of (2).
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Czech Republic12126 Posts
On October 05 2015 20:21 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 20:09 Umpteen wrote:
Which ladder/league is this? Playing EU/Gold, the only time I've ever had a hostile response to a post-game PM was when they had already been hostile in-game at the end of the match and I was trying to smooth things over. The situation which prompted me to discuss the issue here happened in LotV beta, Platinum league. I had - admittedly rarely - similar situations during my journey from bronze to diamond in HotS. But I doubt that the league level makes any difference. Well, wait, strike that, it sort of does. IMHO interaction should be even more encouraged in lower leagues, because at Master/GM level there are few enough people who are strongly dedicated to the game that they probably naturally drift towards discussing SC2-related issues in addition to just playing. I feel that without it, we (I mean - we gold/platinum/diamond(?) scrubs) lose a lot of valuable interactions and opportunities to just enjoy the game with others instead of flipping the table after a losing streak. EDIT: additional reply: Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 20:19 deacon.frost wrote:(...) Have you ever done any sport or what? People like StarDust are asking for a disaster, believe me  And I am not the most competitive person out there  Edit> Although you have to remember, that you cannot use your voice properly through PM which gives a lot. Just the text without gestures and intonation is not that well accepted as a real life discussion could be... I used to play basketball, although calling it 'competitive' would be too much (I organized tournaments and leagues at university and took part in them, with my team having records of 2-10 and similar). And of course that there were emotions, but there never seemed to be a universal ban on trying to communicate. Some of the players were semi-pros and they did not seem to look at it this way either. What you're saying about limits of text communications is totally valid, though I'm afraid this is something we cannot change, even with emoticons. So you either give people the benefit of doubt and assume they are not BM or things escalate unnecessarily.
I played football a lot + I have some experience with ice hockey and you just won't chat about the loss with your opponent unless there's a beer involved(in the case you are on the winning side). The basic rule was to wait after the shower at least or don't worry about consequences
The SC2 community isn't that toxic to not communicate, just give them a time. Start slowly with some general BS like - "hey, do you have a minute?" Don't just shoot the question you want to know, that's rude everywhere, not only in SC2.
TL,DR: Imagine you are asking John McEnroe on a court
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I think it's good to open dialogue like this, even if only a small portion of the player base reads this.
My experience is the same as the OP. However, normally I wouldn't pm somebody after a win (especially if they didn't gg). I would like to be able to though. Don't be surprised if they bite your head off. Just be polite; no point adding fuel to the fire. Keep it short. Realistically, you don't have much to learn and they won't want to talk for too long.
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Different people react very differently to this kind of approaches, in sc2 and in real world.
- Some sc2 players have ladder fear to the extent that the never play. Other find it ridiculous and don't understand at all why they don't play.
- Some sc2 players destroy their keyboard or hit the wall when they lose a game. Other wouldn't dream of it.
- Some sports players lose it and start fights with people regularly when they are losing. Others just get back up and continue to play despite how much shit they catch from the other team.
If you run into the keyboard-smashing kind of player when he is having a bad day, and you message him after you beat him, chances are that he won't respond well. As one of the calm players, I wish this wasn't the case, but that's how a lot of players are, and everyone has to deal with that.
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The only thing to really infer is that the OP has never played a sport in his life. If your opponents don't lose gracefully, ie the equivalent of gg, you have no right to rub it in by initiating a talking about the game with him/them.
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Since when is laddering considered a sport?
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Czech Republic12126 Posts
On October 05 2015 21:53 rotta wrote:
Since when is laddering considered a sport?
Who wrote it is a sport?
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On October 05 2015 21:53 rotta wrote:
Since when is laddering considered a sport?
It actually can result in similar emotions, so the analogy is not completely invalid. That being said...
On October 05 2015 21:44 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The only thing to really infer is that the OP has never played a sport in his life. If your opponents don't lose gracefully, ie the equivalent of gg, you have no right to rub it in by initiating a talking about the game with him/them.
...I actually have, which I mentioned a couple of posts earlier. My problem is what is expected to be a norm and what is expected to be an exception. I strongly believe that allowing conversation should be the norm, but it seems to be an exception or to be at least controversial for a large part of the laddering community.
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I personally can talk with people after a loss, but the person cant start with: "Hey dude, here why you sucks." or "Tell me did you strat work once? Cause I beat the crap out of you with my spidersense." :D
You can be the most gentleman(woman) on the planet the opponent has few chances to answer normally. Try to talk with the opponent by pointing out a bad thing you did or something he did well. You're the looser at the end but youre not a "total" looser, because you did this well or I got lucky there. Even if it's not true, it can reassure a bit.
I think its a way to start a conversation. Well, ofc there is some people you cant talk with even with the smoothest talk ever. :D They are just mad let them be mad for a while and try later. ^^
Loosing is never fun when you expect to win! :D
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sometimes after a loss i get a really solid "bullet point" critique of exactly what i did wrong.
as far as social features go... the SC2 client is fine... its the community that is anti-social... if the community wanted to socialize it would find a way.
Hell, the C&C community is loads more social and they don't even have a server never mind some elaborate features for congregating in the client.
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Keep talking to your opponents OP. I sometimes rage hard after a game, but every time there was a real conservation after a game (started sometimes even by BM...) it ended usually with a "gg wp gl with your next games" from both sides and the rage was gone. This said, you maybe should not start with "how often does this work for you?" because for the other one it can sound a lot like: "does this BAD strat work at all for you? It was so ez to defend!" Your second sentence makes your good intention clear but maybe switch those the next time 
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The loser should always be the one initiating these sorts of discussion just after a game, whether it's SC2, BW or AoE3. You just come across as a sore winner, even if that's not your intent. Even with friends I'd rather not start analyzing a game I won, since really my win is on the back of their mistakes.
If you really want to discuss strategy, then do it on a forum or after you've lost a game.
It's just common etiquette.
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Honestly in terms of 1v1 online games, the amount of toxicity in SC2 ladder isn't at all out of the ordinary. People get salty and frustrated when they lose, even if it's for the "right" reasons, and that gets in the way of having civil conversations. The more competitive and invested a person is in a match the more emotional they are going to be, just the nature of the game.
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On October 05 2015 20:55 Dingodile wrote:
Well main reason why you are raging (hard) is because of houdcounter units and design.
just one of thousend (including design) examples; which one is hitting hard on you?
(1) you lost your game because of stupid wm hits.
(2) you lost your game because of better micro/plan of opponent.
Sc2 offers ton of things like (1), barely of (2).
This is pretty much why I rage, lol.
I for one cannot understand the incessant need that this community has for "no gg" = bad manner. I guess I'm a bit like IdrA in that regard. Sometimes I don't want to gg. Sometimes...the game was NOT good! Sometimes it was stupid. Sometimes I'm frustrated or upset. Sometimes my opponent uses a strategy that is stupid, overly annoying to defend, and I just don't want to type gg because I don't think the game deserves it. A lot of my opponents are assholes too, lol. I play Zerg, so I bring a lot of this on myself. Most of the times I just don't gg in situations like Dingo described...where I feel the opponent won more due to the design flaws of the game than an exceptional display of player skill. I don't particularly enjoy games where the opponent won with the aid of stupidly designed units.
But if I feel the opponent played a style which is really mechanically oriented and won out with sheer raw execution then I am quick to GGWP because that is the sort of shit I enjoy and really want to praise. I'll even send the opponent a comment saying how impressive his play is.
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In BW if I played a really good game with someone (win or lose) and there was something that I was curious about. I would ask. Hey, did you take that 4th right around when I did X or whatever. Most people were pretty chill about talking about their mindset/strat during the game. On Iccup it was very common at the lower levels to talk strats or discuss the game played post game. Heck, even as my base was being blown to bits at times I would ask the other player what I should have done if they were me. Sometimes I'd get shitty answers (Play better lulzlzlzlzlz) but most times I'd get some really good information, especially when I played higher ranked players.
If I ever got hands down spanked or vice versa then post game rage can be a factor. Especially when I feel, or the opponent, felt cheated (out of the win, not hacking) for whatever reason.
I noticed with the crappy B.net of SC2, that has really faded away and most people are just down right hostile after EVERY game now. Which is sad because both players stand to learn something if everyone just took a breath.
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It's weird, while I agree that there's a lot of "salt" on ladder and online in general since it's the same principle than car rage, it's mostly anonymous and has no consequences so people are abnormally violent.
But in general on NA I find my experience is not that bad. Even having a Z apologize to me because he randomly scouted both my proxy pylons during a 7gates lately.
Seriously if you ask a legitimate question for personal development or give a small hint, and all you get back is insults, then just don't bother with that person. There's no point dealing with psychopathic behaviors online, but that shouldn't mean you should stop being nice, curious and helpful with everybody because of those few idiots that can only deal with looses by being angry or blaming external factors race, hack...) instead of trying to improve.
Oh BTW if you fucking WM drop me and kill mt whole mineral lines in 3 seconds with 2WM.... I may not answer back if you message me post game.
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I agree with the op. If you can curb your knee-jerk reaction to immediately scream BM after the winner messages you, you can make some really good practice partners or online friends in a very much lonely battlenet. Of course it depends on the content of the message: if your opponent messages you with "ez" after the game, then there's little reason to reply in a civil manner or at all.
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On October 05 2015 21:53 rotta wrote:
Since when is laddering considered a sport?
It's pretty much the same thing. A sport is just a game that can be played competitively, and you can be sure that if you are laddering it is a competitive game. It's pretty much accepted nowadays that computer games are sports. I honestly wouldn't be expecting having to explain this sort of thing in TL of all places. If you are playing tennis in a park with some friends, just because it isn't a worldwide tournament, you are still playing a sport. So it is with laddering. The difference in monetary or recognition stakes doesn't change that it is still a sporting act.
Just because one is "real life" game and the other is a virtual game, and you can't see their face, people and emotions are the same anywhere. Unless there is some unfortunate circumstance in your life where you never had to play a game in your life, even a board game, everyone recognises that if your opponents are so dejected of a loss in the game that they wouldn't even acknowledge your existence with a farewell, you don't go and initiate a conversation about the finer points of strategy with them.
You certainly don't just go" how often does your XYZ strat work?" And then start talking a load of crap when the other guy isn't talking back to you. In real life the guy would ignore you and walk away. And that's what he did, only that this is the virtual world so he clicked a button called "ignore". You didn't even bother to greet the guy you decided to talk to. Who does that in real life? This is not BM. This is not some special SC2 etiquette, it's just plainly obvious and in line with every experience in life.
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It depends on how you talk to the persona... for instance if I lose against you by trying some shitty build and you PM me asking "Does that even work against others?" it is kind of trolling maybe, I can't know but I will think it is...
If you won against me but you PM me to ask other thing or give me some advice about my gameplay like "You lacked scout, I had XX more expas hidden", well, thanks for that.
Anyway, it depends on how you talk and what you ask (and also how you ask), as well the mood of the other player considering he could maybe be pissed off because losing =/
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EPT
