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It began here. Long story short, I played a PvZ game in LotV beta. My opponent went for a 1 base baneling bust, which I luckily scouted (very luckily - my probe saw the baneling nest going down), held and won the game. The build appeared pretty strong if unscouted even against gateway expand, so I wondered how succesful it generally was. However, my PM after the game apparently was thought to be offensive/provocative and my opponent replied as if it was indeed offensive. And thus I learned the hard way that I apparently should not PM people after winning the game, unless I apologize for even trying to dare, because if I don't, I invite aggresive behaviour which in that case would be acceptable.
After reading the BM thread on TL.net I now understand that messaging opponents after having won the game, no matter the topic, is quite universally understood to be 'asking for BM reply'.
I completely, utterly don't get the point of this and I believe this is detrimental to the community/social aspect of SC2.
Take a look at how long communication on ladder was, to say the least, rudimentary. Customary in-game GLHFs and GGs, occasional balance whines after games, but no chat system, inconvenient UI - all designed so poorly that one almost never communicated with people. Enter LotV beta and the new chat system. A more convenient window displaying the general chat and private conversations, automated tournaments - in short, reasonable changes expected to make the experience of playing SC2 more social.
However, no feature can deal with the social norms which have been growing for the past couple of years. Unless we - and especially those players who play the competitive version of SC2, i.e. 1v1 ladder - accept that people actually can talk to each other, the interactions will not thrive.
If I had known and obeyed this 'rule' earlier, I would have lost a couple of valuable practice custom games. If some people had not written to ma after stomping me in-game, I wouldn't have got some valuable advice.
It costs nothing to opt-out - accept private messages only from friends, block people, decide not to reply or simply write "Sorry, I don't want to talk, ggbye". But asking people to not write at all, even in a polite way, if they happened to win the game, is just too much.
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it's not complicated. it's very well known that many many people are extremely frustrated after losing a game of SC2 and no matter how well-intentioned or friendly your message is, depending on the other person's mood, it might just end up making them feel worse. not everyone is like that, but i don't see the point of trying to change people who are.
in all honesty this comes off as kind of a pretentious lecture. you say that if someone doesn't want to talk they can say "sorry i don't want to talk" - why can't you, the initiator, just ask politely "do you mind if i ask you a question about the game" instead of expecting it and then getting indignant when your opponent doesn't care to talk to you? you're putting all the responsibility on the other person when you are the one trying to initiate an unwanted conversation, as if to say that you're somehow inherently above them for being willing to chat. not everyone is on SC2 to chat.
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I appreciate that ladder anxiety exists, as well as reacting hard to losing games. My point is - the community introduces social norms which are antisocial in nature and I don't understand what sense they make. There is a feature which allows protection from unwanted conversations: allowing PMs from friends only. If someone doesn't want to chat, they can just go on and block interactions, period. That "opt-out" I can totally accept. But the default option allows and now even encourages chatting.
I guess in these circumstances you're right is "asking if I may ask a question" is indeed the only way. But with a chat system in place it seems to me to be odd, as if I had to be sorry for even trying. Especially since (I know this is anecdotal evidence, but I doubt anyone has any other) more often then not, I found conversations after games to be friendly and, so to speak, productive.
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Clearly you don't understand how bad manner this actually is.
You just beat the shit out of this guy and then message him asking something about the game. The only thing that can be inferred from this is that you get off on sucking yourself off to how well you played last game and enjoy rubbing it in his face.
Just because you can chat with someone because the game allows you to doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.
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I didn't want the thread to be "about my game", but oh well...
As a matter of fact - I don't understand how bad manner this actually was. I felt lucky I won and I clearly stated it in my message, which was never intented to be BM. I wanted to learn something about the game, and to do so it makes sense to actually talk to people. Especially in beta, where everybody is trying to figure out what to do, particularly in lower leagues like platinum.
If you write an offensive "you suck, go to bronze" message or anything similar, this is BM because it is offensive. But I don't understand why the very idea of talking to somebody who lost can lead to only one conclusion - the one you mention in your post.
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On October 05 2015 19:23 ShurykaN wrote:
Clearly you don't understand how bad manner this actually is.
You just beat the shit out of this guy and then message him asking something about the game. The only thing that can be inferred from this is that you get off on sucking yourself off to how well you played last game and enjoy rubbing it in his face.
Just because you can chat with someone because the game allows you to doesn't mean it is the right thing to do.
Clearly you should take a breath? I understand that people might have a hard time talking right after their loss, but seriously, people should try a bit harder not to get mad.
I disagree with people saying that you won't change people, that is it normal. I don't like the fact that people go full retard as soon as they lose a game, I don't think I am the one that should accept not to talk to others. That is totally thinking the wrong way.
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after a chess game you won, when you can talk face to face, how would you initiate the conversation? i would go with "excuse me" or "hey, good game" or smth like that, not burst out with the question. that's not only more polite, it also increases the chance to get an honest answer
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On October 05 2015 19:31 AsAr wrote:
after a chess game you won, when you can talk face to face, how would you initiate the conversation? i would go with "excuse me" or "hey, good game" or smth like that, not burst out with the question. that's not only more polite, it also increases the chance to get an honest answer
Noted. Still, it appears that just initiating conversation is frowned upon.
By the way, my guess is that if I had written "hey, good game" prior to asking, it would have been considered even more BM, like a sort of "post-game offensive gg".
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If you want to talk to people after the game find friends to practice with, not random people on ladder. It's fine to talk to people but unless you're autistic you should try to be more understanding of others and read the situation.
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On October 05 2015 19:37 ShurykaN wrote:
If you want to talk to people after the game find friends to practice with, not random people on ladder.
Wait, so no chatting on ladder allowed at all? Since when is this BM?
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On October 05 2015 19:37 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 19:31 AsAr wrote:
after a chess game you won, when you can talk face to face, how would you initiate the conversation? i would go with "excuse me" or "hey, good game" or smth like that, not burst out with the question. that's not only more polite, it also increases the chance to get an honest answer Noted. Still, it appears that just initiating conversation is frowned upon. By the way, my guess is that if I had written "hey, good game" prior to asking, it would have been considered even more BM, like a sort of "post-game offensive gg".
well i can really only speak for myself, but i would flood you with information about my build if you were to greet me like this 
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On October 05 2015 19:41 corydoras wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 19:37 ShurykaN wrote:
If you want to talk to people after the game find friends to practice with, not random people on ladder. Wait, so no chatting on ladder allowed at all? Since when is this BM?
Speaks well of the levels of toxicity within the playerbase. I'd like to talk about interesting games regardless of who won but I've had enough death threats and such to block all communication.
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On October 05 2015 19:31 AsAr wrote:
after a chess game you won, when you can talk face to face, how would you initiate the conversation? i would go with "excuse me" or "hey, good game" or smth like that, not burst out with the question. that's not only more polite, it also increases the chance to get an honest answer
Personally I wouild find this much more BM than what the thread-starter wrote.
I usually get pretty heated after a loss, depending on the game and the reason I lost. But I mostly chat positively if someone writes to me and isn't obviously BM.
If I really got upset from the game and the person that defeated me wants to do small-talk he can do it elsewhere, however if he wants to talk about strategy get/give advice in earnest and is nice about it I'm all for that. I prefer that to be clear from the start though, just fire away your question.
If someone would message me in game "wow I got lucky that game, seems like a strong build, how often do you win zvp with that strat?" I would have no problem talking with that person about it. Would probably enjoy it too.
I don't buy this whole "chatting is taboo" thing, SC2 is trying to become more soicable, sadly we are stuck in the past and people are used to play isolated. This is lotv not wol or hots, get with the times or get "blocking" just like TS wrote. You don't need to telegraph that you want to chat with strangers, just block and just chat with friends.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
You just beat the shit out of this guy and then message him asking something about the game. The only thing that can be inferred from this is that you get off on sucking yourself off to how well you played last game and enjoy rubbing it in his face.
I often throw a few lines at people @ master+ saying GG and if there is any reason that's obvious to me but may not be obvious to them contributing to a loss, a lot of people are happy to read those comments especially as you get to the point where people are trying to improve.
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Which ladder/league is this? Playing EU/Gold, the only time I've ever had a hostile response to a post-game PM was when they had already been hostile in-game at the end of the match and I was trying to smooth things over.
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I think most people would be fine if you wanted to ask them about a match you just played. SC2 does have the abillity to make certain people veeeery mad though :p.
![[image loading]](http://www.spawnroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2upcxo7.jpg)
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On October 05 2015 18:33 corydoras wrote:It began here. Long story short, I played a PvZ game in LotV beta. My opponent went for a 1 base baneling bust, which I luckily scouted (very luckily - my probe saw the baneling nest going down), held and won the game. The build appeared pretty strong if unscouted even against gateway expand, so I wondered how succesful it generally was. However, my PM after the game apparently was thought to be offensive/provocative and my opponent replied as if it was indeed offensive. And thus I learned the hard way that I apparently should not PM people after winning the game, unless I apologize for even trying to dare, because if I don't, I invite aggresive behaviour which in that case would be acceptable. After reading the BM thread on TL.net I now understand that messaging opponents after having won the game, no matter the topic, is quite universally understood to be 'asking for BM reply'. I completely, utterly don't get the point of this and I believe this is detrimental to the community/social aspect of SC2. Take a look at how long communication on ladder was, to say the least, rudimentary. Customary in-game GLHFs and GGs, occasional balance whines after games, but no chat system, inconvenient UI - all designed so poorly that one almost never communicated with people. Enter LotV beta and the new chat system. A more convenient window displaying the general chat and private conversations, automated tournaments - in short, reasonable changes expected to make the experience of playing SC2 more social. However, no feature can deal with the social norms which have been growing for the past couple of years. Unless we - and especially those players who play the competitive version of SC2, i.e. 1v1 ladder - accept that people actually can talk to each other, the interactions will not thrive. If I had known and obeyed this 'rule' earlier, I would have lost a couple of valuable practice custom games. If some people had not written to ma after stomping me in-game, I wouldn't have got some valuable advice. It costs nothing to opt-out - accept private messages only from friends, block people, decide not to reply or simply write "Sorry, I don't want to talk, ggbye". But asking people to not write at all, even in a polite way, if they happened to win the game, is just too much.
Well, it's actually BM in every sport I have done. You don't talk about a competitive loss right after the game ended with whom just lost. It's a highway to hell  That's the reason why there's usually some time given to the opponent to "digest" the loss and calm down.
The problem in SC2 is that you cannot go for a drink or two after the game is ended to discuss what happened. You also cannot take a shower and then discuss it. This is in every sport the place where players usually calm down after the loss(locker room). Basically in real life this happens too. It's not that different. Just watch some interviews of players who are losing - they are frustrated, they are using just general BS phrases, because they know, they cannot tell to the camera "fuck off, I am pissed that we are losing and you are making it worse, get away from me otherwise I kill you". Well, in SC2 I can tell that
Have you ever done any sport or what? People like StarDust are asking for a disaster, believe me And I am not the most competitive person out there
Edit>
Also you have to remember, that you cannot use your voice properly through PM which gives a lot. Just the text without gestures and intonation is not that well accepted as a real life discussion could be...
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On October 05 2015 20:09 Umpteen wrote:
Which ladder/league is this? Playing EU/Gold, the only time I've ever had a hostile response to a post-game PM was when they had already been hostile in-game at the end of the match and I was trying to smooth things over.
The situation which prompted me to discuss the issue here happened in LotV beta, Platinum league. I had - admittedly rarely - similar situations during my journey from bronze to diamond in HotS. But I doubt that the league level makes any difference.
Well, wait, strike that, it sort of does.
IMHO interaction should be even more encouraged in lower leagues, because at Master/GM level there are few enough people who are strongly dedicated to the game that they probably naturally drift towards discussing SC2-related issues in addition to just playing. I feel that without it, we (I mean - we gold/platinum/diamond(?) scrubs) lose a lot of valuable interactions and opportunities to just enjoy the game with others instead of flipping the table after a losing streak.
EDIT: additional reply:
On October 05 2015 20:19 deacon.frost wrote:(...) Have you ever done any sport or what? People like StarDust are asking for a disaster, believe me And I am not the most competitive person out there Edit> Although you have to remember, that you cannot use your voice properly through PM which gives a lot. Just the text without gestures and intonation is not that well accepted as a real life discussion could be...
I used to play basketball, although calling it 'competitive' would be too much (I organized tournaments and leagues at university and took part in them, with my team having records of 2-10 and similar). And of course that there were emotions, but there never seemed to be a universal ban on trying to communicate. Some of the players were semi-pros and they did not seem to look at it this way either.
What you're saying about limits of text communications is totally valid, though I'm afraid this is something we cannot change, even with emoticons. So you either give people the benefit of doubt and assume they are not BM or things escalate unnecessarily.
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It really is a shame 
I only PM people after beating them if they "gg". Otherwise I figure there isn't much point (they'll get upset or won't respond).
Learning sportsmanship is one of the big reasons I'm going to encourage my son to take part in sports!
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What do you mean the past couple of years, it has been like for the decade I am on the internet. With time you learn the signs if a person doesn't want to talk and everything. We don't see our opponents facial expression and everything, just the text they write. You also learn how to not approach people.
If you mess up and end up talking to someone who doesn't want to talk, just do what you would do in real life. Apologize and move on. And don't pounce them with a wall of text. A neutral message containing a hello + your intention.
As for the Chess thing. In semi competitive chess, people rather like to analyze the game with their opponent. As they are the best person to analyze it with. They can share their intentions the best. So you get rather used to people asking you to go through the game real quick.
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EPT
