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On May 08 2015 01:02 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 00:52 Merkmerk wrote: "This unit is boring" = dog whistle balance whine.
Lurkers are fantastic now. They're a great response against mech and actually need to be played around.
Beta needs some more time as Terran/Protoss adjust to Zerg actually having a serious threat that needs to be scouted, countered, and dealt with. Fortunately Terran has dropship harass and the new siege tank drop nightmare harass, and Protoss has disruptors and the new warp prisms.
I love ZvZ now because it can differentiate - you can break the roach vs roach with lurkers, but you're vulnerable to a muta transition. Or you can go for a burrow + speed roach push/harass. "Unit is boring" is actually whining about design perspective, not a balance perspective. I don't know how are Lurkers great response to Mech, they are pretty much the only unit you shouldn't play against Mech as they are taking too much supply, can't deal with Thors while Siege Tanks and Cyclones out-range them. They only counter Hellions, but you can make cheap Roaches to deal with Hellbats/Hellions. Maybe they can be good against constant Hellion run-bys but someone with better Hellion control will simply avoid them. I agree with the rest of your post.
I use roach + hydra + lurker and viper cloud to deal with mech. Roaches tank while the lurkers get in position and start shredding.
Anyhow, P/T are used to a very passive Zerg play style that has been in the game since WOL - namely one where zerg has very few aggressive options especially in the early and mid game, and those options are very easily countered if scouted.
Protoss in particular is used to just rolling over Zerg with a macro'd gate/robo deathball and Zerg not being able to do much about it other than out macro it. Now you can roll in lurkers and yeah an a-moved deathball will lose.
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On May 08 2015 04:42 Quateras wrote: Aren't Ravagers killing turtle lurkers super easily?
You can unburrow Lurkers in time if you watch closely. It requires micro on both sides and whoever micros better wins.
All in all I think the lurker is a great unit for Zerg's armada. I think it's too strong atm, but the design of it is great. There were some decent suggestions. Personally think moving the upgrade to hive could work out if in turn you make the general lurker path more accessible.
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On May 08 2015 06:52 tili wrote: Another concept would be to mess with the width/hitbox of the aeo line, making it even 20% thinner would increase the ability to micro against it, making it more of a dynamic I'd much rather see the spines move slower than the width limited even further. Lowering the width would lessen its ability to force deathballs to break up, and I really appreciate that role. Lowering the speed would make the counter micro easier to perform.
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I wish they added a more sc2 specific unit than the lurker. the timing they come out is so awkward, maybe it's the tech requirement (needing hydra tech) that makes it just very weird to play in zvt
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lurker zvz is atrocious and i've always thought the siege tank was one of the worst designed units in the game so i'm not really a fan lol
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On May 08 2015 10:10 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 06:52 tili wrote: Another concept would be to mess with the width/hitbox of the aeo line, making it even 20% thinner would increase the ability to micro against it, making it more of a dynamic I'd much rather see the spines move slower than the width limited even further. Lowering the width would lessen its ability to force deathballs to break up, and I really appreciate that role. Lowering the speed would make the counter micro easier to perform.
I like this idea as well!
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9 range is just too long. Try 7 or 8.
On May 08 2015 13:06 brickrd wrote: lurker zvz is atrocious and i've always thought the siege tank was one of the worst designed units in the game so i'm not really a fan lol
This is why you are not a game designer^^
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On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san!
Wah wah. Unfortunately until WoL came and removed Lurkers from BW it was one of the most frustrating things in the game. but the best design of a zerg unit I've seen. Learn to split END OF STORY. P.S. Get air. or idk use drops or nydus worms. Its not that hard to GO AROUND. Sometimes I wish people would sit and think of alternatives rather then just posting a post saying this unit imba match up is boring. Heck cloud thing from vipers work too.
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On May 08 2015 14:53 FabledIntegral wrote:9 range is just too long. Try 7 or 8. Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 13:06 brickrd wrote: lurker zvz is atrocious and i've always thought the siege tank was one of the worst designed units in the game so i'm not really a fan lol This is why you are not a game designer^^
At least 7. However you need to buff Immortal range a bit now IMAO. Lurkers and Ravagers would be easier to deal.
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On May 08 2015 16:23 Rukis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Wah wah. Unfortunately until WoL came and removed Lurkers from BW it was one of the most frustrating things in the game. but the best design of a zerg unit I've seen. Learn to split END OF STORY. P.S. Get air. or idk use drops or nydus worms. Its not that hard to GO AROUND. Sometimes I wish people would sit and think of alternatives rather then just posting a post saying this unit imba match up is boring. Heck cloud thing from vipers work too. Wait, what? Ummm... what did you think I meant? You reply as if I was balance-whining. >_>
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I've waited 5 years to do this. This is the greatest post that has ever graced TL.
+ Show Spoiler +
Same logic all race. Now ur Nada.
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On May 08 2015 18:05 EarthwormJim wrote:I've waited 5 years to do this. This is the greatest post that has ever graced TL. + Show Spoiler +Same logic all race. Now ur Nada. Ahhh, well done! Remember to a-move far behind the lurkers, to avoid the marines from clumping up on the way there.
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On May 07 2015 23:18 atrox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 22:58 TimKim0713 wrote: The thing is that lotv isn't bw. We don't want another bw with just better graphics...
Wrong for blizzard to bring back the old unit. The royal we? LMAO, yes having a unit that is a bw clone would make the game another broodwar. SC2 is already broken beyond saving. It will never be as good as broodwar now, so why not try saving it by introducing a little bit of broodwar into this heap of mess.
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On May 08 2015 12:29 ETisME wrote: I wish they added a more sc2 specific unit than the lurker. the timing they come out is so awkward, maybe it's the tech requirement (needing hydra tech) that makes it just very weird to play in zvt
Ling Hydra is almost playable vs bio if you rush armor upgrades and play defensively for a while(which is more or less the same than Lurker play). It shuts down drops in a breeze, and Hydras come out much earlier than Mutas. 5 Hydras kill a medivac in 3 volleys, (4 Hydras with +1 upgrade)
Obviously it isn't that effective as lingbane in fights, but the costs and macro is the same (2banes = 1 hydra), changing meele upgrades for ranged ones. You exchange banes for Hydras.
And Obviously it is quite weak against mech openers, but I won't change Zerg schemes vs Bio much considering how Zerg is defending Banshee-Hellion openers into Bio, almost always without roaches.
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I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW
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On May 08 2015 22:22 Merkmerk wrote: I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW
TvZ Bio is pretty iconic though.
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The lurker unit seem silly right now. Range 9 linear aoe? 200 hp? Really, this seems like the next collosus unit. Welcome to legacy of the swarm
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On May 08 2015 22:22 Merkmerk wrote: I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW While I enjoyed BW lots, let's not pretend that the game was the ultimate perfect flawless RTS. I think having half of the tech completely unviable in TvP was not one of the great parts of BW that we should strive to copy... And I'd argue that ZvBio is one of the better working MUs in hots, so I'd be sad to see it go. As spectator more than player I'd think.
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On May 08 2015 23:12 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 22:22 Merkmerk wrote: I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW While I enjoyed BW lots, let's not pretend that the game was the ultimate perfect flawless RTS. I think having half of the tech completely unviable in TvP was not one of the great parts of BW that we should strive to copy... And I'd argue that ZvBio is one of the better working MUs in hots, so I'd be sad to see it go. As spectator more than player I'd think.
So far in beta TvZ is still Bio-heavy and still MMMMvsLBM mainly, as a Lurler-based takes a significant time to be set up, tons of gas, and the availability of scans + flying siege tanks restricts that kind of strategy.
The Ultralisk/Marauder change has been fairly more significant in TvZ, forcing a transition into BioCyclone/BioMech in the lategame. So far, I feel that the matchup is very very rich and Lurkers still have to find their place, since they are used much more defensively than aggressively.
And even if Lurker gets to a mainstream spot in TvZ, it's not like BioTankRaven + the new air unit vs LingHydraLurker is going to be boring at all, and there will be a lot a lot of skill involved in.
So I think that we are making things too drastic, as the mentality of Terran players during 5 years has been mostly: "MMM or death". There is a lot of beta testing time to go yet, and we'll see how much Lurkers affect the dynamics of the matchup. IMAO the Lurker has been much more relevant in ZvZ than on ZvT, were suppposedly we wanted to see the lurker to bring new styles in and have some area control.
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Lurkers were not often used in ZvZ during brood war days. Only a select few scenarios and games ever saw this.
ZvZ was always Muta/Ling which in turn became Muta/ling/bling or now Roach/Hydra (Roach/Ravager in lotv).
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