• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:23
CET 17:23
KST 01:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
The TL.net Awards - ESL Pro Tour 2023/24 Season1Master's Coliseum 8: Playoffs Week 1 Preview5Master's Coliseum 8 - Group D: Oliveira, Clem, Zoun, Spirit4Team Liquid Map Contest #20 - Presented by Monster Energy30Master's Coliseum 8 - Group B: MaxPax, Reynor, Rogue, SKillous2
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 6-12): Clem/MaxPax/herO win, Serral loses showmatch4OSC Season 12 World Championship1uThermal 2v2 Circuit8Last Chance Qualifiers for OlimoLeague 2024 Winter1Oliveira/TIME retires20
StarCraft 2
General
The TL.net Awards - ESL Pro Tour 2023/24 Season If the ESL tour is discontinued, how much are you willing to spend per year to support SC2 esports? (crowdfunding, stream subscriptions, donations, etc.) Weekly Cups (Jan 6-12): Clem/MaxPax/herO win, Serral loses showmatch A totally unpatched clean install of WoL possible? Oliveira/TIME retires
Tourneys
SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 $15,000 Master's Coliseum #8 - (Dec 14-Jan 19) Introducing Vancouver Sumo Starcraft II League H.4.0.S Galactic Battle Champions (18 January) uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Strategy
[G]: How to Write a Help[H] or Question[Q] Thread [G] Writing Build Order Guides
Custom Maps
Simple Questions/Answers Mod: Observer PlusPlus Cyclone
External Content
Mutation # 456 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 455 Shield Up! Mutation # 454 Cremation Mutation # 453 The Ultimate Price
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.com/ English Translation Question StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Why protoss always underperforms on pro level? New SSL2 Candidate maps~
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread Red Clan Cup 28 BWCL Season 61 Wrap-Up/S62 Announcement
Strategy
4 guys on gas Muta harass in zvt [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile MLG Halo Discussion Nintendo Switch Thread Transformice
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
WORLDS 2024
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Elon Musk's lies, propaganda, etc. Awesome Games Done Quick 2025! Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
fOrGG/Fin Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [Books] Epic-Fantasy series discussion thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
FPS vs. RTS: Cognitive Abili…
TrAiDoS
I made a Card Game (Deck …
LUCKY_NOOB
Aizen's message from the…
sosukeAiZEN
Inconsistent DPS? can som…
StaticNine
Crime in Fribourg!
Nebuchad
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5535 users

LotV is doing the economy fix wrong

Blogs > ninazerg
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-08 21:54:24
April 08 2015 09:10 GMT
#1
I think if there were ever a universal rule for SC2 expansions and patches, it would be that the fans believe that Blizzard did everything wrong. So, are the fans just whiny bitches, or is there some legitimate gripe to be had here? We'll talk about that in a bit, but first I want to talk about something that I believe is wrong with Legacy of the Void. I'm sure this new title will give fans of franchise everything they would expect from a SC2 title: fresh new units, new maps, exciting new strategies, heavily-exploited all-ins, unbeatable unit compositions, and the always magical first moment of crippling disappointment.

Then, there would be more crippling disappointment. I think this is fairly normal, though. Filthy casuals are learning what us hardcore nerds have known for years: video games are really difficult to master, and even harder to play against other people. Every game I play has whining people saying how OP this and that is, and how the game's parent company is 'ruining' it. I'm very certain if people played StarCraft: Brood War on a large-scale, even in this day, people would rage about how the game is broken fundamentally. Inevitably, there would be really bad threads by casual fans coming up with ways to 'fix' the game that wasn't broken.

So what I'm saying is: I don't know how to 'fix' SC2. At this point, I think the fanbase is too cynical and toxic for the game to really recover its image unless LotV is really good.

But I got some beef already.

I don't know if the current incarnation of Blizzard Inc. is trying to create a game that is more like Brood War, or is trying to create something different. I can't know their intentions, but I do know that fans complained that the play in SC2 had become too static; it was basically the same stuff over and over again mixed with some infuriating all-ins. Part of the problem came from terrible, terrible damage, and part of it came from three-base play.

Three-base play is where you develop the optimal economy on three bases to max your army, do your one or two engagements, then win or lose. You can do the same thing in Brood War, actually. The difference (in my humble opinion) is that in Brood War, if you take a fourth base against other person's three, and defend their attack, then you will have a slightly better economy. In SC2, if you take a fourth base, that investment will leave you with too few units and your opponents' timing attack will kill you, so you have to play positioning games until you're close to being maxed.

In Brood War, if you have a huge economy, like six bases or something, you have a ton of income, so you can add on a bunch of production facilities, and regenerate your army so that every time you trade units, you are able to regrow your army faster than they can until they can't force a trade and crumble. That's why having a lot of bases is awesome.

In Legacy of the Void, the economy change is supposed to address fans cries for games that encourage players to take more bases and throw out the meta-game of having one or two really big fights that decide the whole game. So if Blizzard's intention was to make the game more like Brood War, they did the complete opposite by some terrible April Fool's prank gone wrong.

You see, in Brood War, the optimal worker count is way less than in SC2. The reason is that the workers mine minerals slower and deliver 4 at a time instead of 5 Edit: I was running on so little sleep, but it's 8 per trip in SCBW. In SC2, the worker pathing is more efficient, and the time it takes for the workers to gather the actual crystal and bring it back is much quicker than in Brood War. Since only one worker can occupy a patch to mine at a time, you'll only need 2 per mineral in BW because if you add too many more, the worker will just bounce around looking for an empty patch to mine from. In SC2, you can have as many as three per patch, and this fact, coupled with how quickly they mine compared to BW, you have a much larger economy in a much shorter time frame.

The economy growth in SC2 makes it possible - if you hold off harassment attempts - to quickly pile up a big production infrastructure on three bases and max out your army really fast. Legacy of the Void has changed this by reducing the amount of minerals per patch, so that the bases will mine out quicker, not allowing a player to sit on three bases for long. My problem with that is this:

- In Brood War, you want to get 6 bases because it will give you a ton of economy and production
- In LotV, you have to get 6 bases because you don't want to run out of money

This feature doesn't really give players many options. It also seems to penalize players for not taking bases, rather than rewarding them for taking bases. My suggestion, if I were in charge of the whole StarCraft world (that'd be scary), would not be to reduce the amount of minerals per patch, but reduce the rate by which workers actually harvest minerals. This would mean each base would reach an optimal worker count at 2 or so per mineral, and the player could produce extra workers to maynard to a fourth base if they wanted to expand, - or - cut workers and go for a timing attack.

The current pace at which economy and production occur in SC2 (again, just in my opinion) allow a player to reach a 'critical mass' of a particular unit or unit composition faster than an opposing player can react to it. By 'react', I don't mean their actual dexterity, I mean their in-game limitations. Sometimes, by the time a player can scout and identify their opponent doing something, it's too late to adjust their tech tree, or place the appropriate production facilities, and winning becomes almost impossible.






Anyhow, a bit earlier, I asked "So, are the fans just whiny bitches, or is there some legitimate gripe to be had here?" and actually would say it's both. There are lots of whiny people who have no idea how to express themselves appropriately who play games. I feel like a lot of companies, including Activision and Blizzard, mistreat their fans because they know the fans will just take it. And it's not just Blizzard. Other companies do it as well. Everything is geared towards maximizing the profit for Blizzard, even if it means you get a rushed product and you have to kick and scream to get small things changed over the course of years. That's absolutely wrong.

I think SC2 fans have been mistreated terribly. I mean, Blizzard isn't beating you with a stick like an angry drunken step-dad, but you're still getting boned.

- You have no LAN

This was implemented, I'm convinced, so that no foreign pro-gaming countries could host a tournament without Blizzard's approval. If any company or organization hosted a major tournament not sanctioned by Blizzard, they would be instantly shut off from the server. LAN support would be easy to implement, but Blizzard doesn't want to deal with another pre-SC2 Kespa. This spoils the fun for everyone, so even minor stuff like 50$ tours can't proceed because battle.net goes down and there is no LAN or alternate servers.

- You own nothing.

You don't actually own a copy of SC2. You paid for the privilege to play. Blizzard can take away your ability to play SC2 at any time. This got a bit better with the arcade being open to play for free, but you still have nothing that is yours. With SC1, you got a disc, and as long as you and a friend both had a disc, you could both play whenever you wanted.

- You have no say

If there is an overpowered unit (think infestors in WoL) Blizzard will ignore the problem as long as possible. Once you've paid for their product, there's not much more money they can milk out of you from that particular title, and will only make changes so the game won't suck so bad that it scares away potential late-buyers or makes players pause to buy sequels. Now that LotV is out, I don't see any reason to add any patches or updates for balance purposes past first six months or so.


In conclusion, Blizzard is an abusive significant-other that doesn't understand you, and is using you for your money, and it hurts me when I see you get back into that relationship over and over and keep getting hurt. It hurts me to see you getting hurt like that, and you deserve better than that.

Think about it.


p.s. - Blizzard, get your shit together

***
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Meavis
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Netherlands1298 Posts
April 08 2015 09:22 GMT
#2
On April 08 2015 18:10 ninazerg wrote:
Blizzard, get your shit together


pls blizz ;_;
"Not you."
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands4660 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-08 09:31:25
April 08 2015 09:28 GMT
#3
Stopped reading after 6 paragraphs.+ Show Spoiler +
TL;DR!

Why do you care so much about SC2? Just play BW instead.
FBH #1!
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
April 08 2015 09:46 GMT
#4
I disagree with you and would go mostly with the "whiny bitches" answer. The specific points of mistreatment you mention are popular to whine about, but are they such a big deal?

- no LAN: does anyone really care anymore? It's not killing tourneys anymore and for individual players it's pointless, because you need internet to play ladder anyway, and ladder is all that matters for serious players like you, right?

- own nothing: that's actually pretty bullshit and I agree it should be changed, but it is a bullshit of the whole industry, stupidly allowed by laws and governments. Blizzard would be silly if they didn't go this way and as they are a publicly traded company, someone would probably go to jail if they didn't milk people this way.

- no say: that's not a problem, that is FUCKING AWESOME. The fact that Blizzard resists the urge to allow whiny bitches to steer their game is their greatest achievement. I bet that if they would listen to people, you would hate the game even more.

Overall, the whole idea that the game "needs fixing" is just a product of whine bitches' need to find something to whiny bitch about and doesn't really exist outside of some highly circklejerking communities (and their associated whiny bitchy following who would however jump on any hatetrain offered to them).

I am actually not even mad with all the misguided posts on TL on the "fixing" of the game. Just go on, argue, debate, make up solutions to made up problems. We are going to enjoy the game meanwhile regardless (unless you infiltrate LR threads, that would lower the enjoyment a little - but you all hate the game, so why would you even go there?)
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
April 08 2015 10:05 GMT
#5
You're terribly wrong in the most of things you say about factual differences between BW and SC2 worker mechanics. 4 minerals per trip WHAT? Someone with more patience may come and prove you wrong piece by piece, but I'll just rate this post a 1.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
April 08 2015 10:27 GMT
#6
You're going to love the next TL Strat LotV piece
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
TheEmulator
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
28077 Posts
April 08 2015 10:31 GMT
#7
On April 08 2015 18:28 Peeano wrote:
Stopped reading after 6 paragraphs.+ Show Spoiler +
TL;DR!

Why do you care so much about SC2? Just play BW instead.

BW players still feel the need to validate themselves by talking about how bad it's successor is.

Which I agree with and do as well
Administrator
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 08 2015 10:43 GMT
#8
"LotV is doing the economy fix wrong"
instant 5/5
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
April 08 2015 11:33 GMT
#9
Kinda seems like you accidentally started talking about SC2 economy while calling it BW. But definitely because of the AI quirks of peons in BW, things get very complicated.

You can read this THESIS someone wrote many years ago about mining AI in StarCraft Brood War, because I think you don't need my summary to get interested in it.

http://projekter.aau.dk/projekter/files/42685711/report.pdf

IMO one of the significant side effects of these quirks, are that it IS worth it to build more workers even to the point that you have 3x per patch (in part because you can transfer them to a new base when needed), and the harassment done to kill workers that are above 2x per patch is still valuable, but it isn't crippling, the same way killing a worker in ZvZ is when you have 1 or less workers per patch. It is just a weird catch-up function that was accidentally designed into the game, where for the most part the advantage gained from killing some workers is recoverable, and there is some time where your armies are still about the same size that you can return the favour to your opponent before the economic advantage really kicks in. The difference in SC2 is that this never happens because there's no such thing as inefficient mining. They either mine perfectly or they aren't doing anything at all, which means losing 8 workers when you're on two base means you lose 1/4th of your economy. Losing 8 workers in BW is harsh on two base, but you aren't dead and usually it evens out because the investment spent to harass you affected your opponent's expansion timing.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13378 Posts
April 08 2015 11:37 GMT
#10
On April 08 2015 19:27 Plexa wrote:
You're going to love the next TL Strat LotV piece


:D <3
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Probemicro
Profile Joined February 2014
3708 Posts
April 08 2015 11:53 GMT
#11
On April 08 2015 18:10 ninazerg wrote:
I don't know if the current incarnation of Blizzard Inc. is trying to create a game that is more like Brood War, or is trying to create something different. I can't know their intentions


what is casual pandering
what is $$$
solidbebe
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Netherlands4921 Posts
April 08 2015 12:19 GMT
#12
And secretly I was actually getting a little excited about LotV after not giving sc2 any attention for 2 years.

You're right nina, I must remain strong.

Don't cry now children, don't cry.
That's the 2nd time in a week I've seen someone sig a quote from this GD and I have never witnessed a sig quote happen in my TL history ever before. -Najda
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12255 Posts
April 08 2015 12:22 GMT
#13
I am interested, why do you think we have no say at all? And if that is a bad thing?
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES49490 Posts
April 08 2015 12:34 GMT
#14
5/5 for the responses, oh man lol.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22203 Posts
April 08 2015 12:36 GMT
#15
humanity has failed
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
lichter
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
April 08 2015 13:12 GMT
#16
not enough sass in this thread so disappointing
AdministratorYOU MUST HEED MY INSTRUCTIONS TAKE OFF YOUR THIIIINGS
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
April 08 2015 13:18 GMT
#17
sc2 needs more peruvians
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
excitedBear
Profile Joined March 2015
Austria120 Posts
April 08 2015 13:20 GMT
#18
On April 08 2015 22:12 lichter wrote:
not enough sass in this thread so disappointing

I will add some sass and say BW has become irrelevant.
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES49490 Posts
April 08 2015 13:22 GMT
#19
On April 08 2015 22:20 excitedBear wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2015 22:12 lichter wrote:
not enough sass in this thread so disappointing

I will add some sass and say BW has become irrelevant.


oh man lol
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
April 08 2015 13:41 GMT
#20
On April 08 2015 22:18 Endymion wrote:
sc2 needs more peruvians

no need, we have made proxy hatchery a standard macro build
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
15:20
Season 12 World Championship
Nicoract vs SKillousLIVE!
NightMare vs ReBellioN
Cure vs Creator
WardiTV1191
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 343
Rex 63
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 995
Hyuk 778
BeSt 430
actioN 428
firebathero 156
Snow 135
Leta 133
Barracks 85
hero 81
Shinee 60
[ Show more ]
sSak 36
sorry 34
Rush 32
Terrorterran 28
Sexy 27
Movie 26
ajuk12(nOOB) 25
Rock 22
ToSsGirL 19
HiyA 18
IntoTheRainbow 13
Backho 8
Sacsri 7
Bale 6
scan(afreeca) 5
Stormgate
RushiSC36
Dota 2
Gorgc14929
qojqva3490
Dendi1383
XcaliburYe301
syndereN159
febbydoto3
Counter-Strike
zeus1205
byalli471
nookyyy 93
kRYSTAL_13
Other Games
hiko1145
Beastyqt369
Lowko314
Hui .280
Liquid`VortiX154
Fuzer 135
ArmadaUGS129
FrodaN121
QueenE61
Mew2King53
amsayoshi44
Trikslyr41
KnowMe32
HTOMario3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick6387
StarCraft 2
ESL.tv122
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 33
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• Laughngamez YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 31
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 3128
• WagamamaTV592
League of Legends
• Nemesis2958
• Jankos1821
• PePiiNeRO1739
• TFBlade1243
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Monday
8h 37m
OlimoLeague
18h 37m
LiuLi Cup
19h 37m
SKillous vs Solar
MaxPax vs SHIN
OSC
23h 37m
Replay Cast
1d 7h
LiuLi Cup
1d 19h
Clem vs Krystianer
Dark vs Jieshi
OSC
1d 23h
OSC
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Master's Coliseum
2 days
herO vs Reynor
MaxPax vs Serral
[ Show More ]
OSC
2 days
OSC
3 days
SOOP
3 days
Classic vs GuMiho
Master's Coliseum
3 days
Astrea vs TBD
GuMiho vs TBD
H.4.0.S
4 days
Master's Coliseum
4 days
Chat StarLeague
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Master's Coliseum
5 days
Chat StarLeague
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-01-03
HSC XXVI
Bitka W Nexusie

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2024 Season 5
Top Gun of StarCraft Season2
CSL 15: 2024 Winter
OSC Championship Season 12
LiuLi Cup: 2024 Grand Finals
Master's Coliseum 8
PW Shanghai Major 2024
ESL Impact League Season 6
Shanghai Major: EU RMR B
Shanghai Major: EU RMR A
Shanghai Major: AMER RMR
BLAST Premier World Final
Thunderpick World Champ.

Upcoming

2025 SCS SPRING: Qualifier
2025 SCS SPRING
Platinum Anchor Qualifying S3
HSC XXVII
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025
ESL Pro League S21
Skyesports Souvenir 2025
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2025
IEM Katowice 2025
BLAST Bounty Spring 2025
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Bounty Spring Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.