With the 14-15 season of Proleague drawing closer, I had a chance to talk with all three of last season's casters about the upcoming season, Proleague, and everything they had on their minds about Korea and Starcraft. Note that the interviews took place in completely different settings and with different goals in mind, so there may be some inconsistencies in available information or details not yet revealed at the time of these interviews.
+ Show Spoiler [Interview with Moonglade] +
I sat down with Moonglade at Dreamhack Winter to talk a little about the ongoing tournament and the upcoming Korean leagues that are set to begin soon. Note that this interview took early on Day 3.
Alright, let's start off with how you're liking DH. You're in the hometown of Dreamhack, how are you enjoying your stay?
I've been loving DH. I've casted one Dreamhack before this one, but Dreamhack Winter is the biggest event i've been to outside Blizzcon. The Starcraft so far has been pretty good, but I think the top 4 should be very, very good. Very excited!
Who are you looking at to make the finals?
Should definitely be Life, I'm thinking it should be Taeja that joins him there unless ForGG can somehow beat him in TvT, which he is very, very good at.
Were you surprised by Taeja's loss to Life? Their series at Blizzcon was a nailbiter, this one... Wasn't.
Well, we did see Life win Blizzcon a few weeks ago, so I'm not entirely surprised, but they were very quick games with Life being insanely aggressive with ling/bane all-ins and whatnot. I guess I wasn't expecting Taeja to go down so quickly, but I think he'll be better prepared for the finals if he makes it there.
So how about ForGG? He's in the top 4 of Dreamhack Winter after not doing too much this year. Did that surprise you?
It does, it does, but he's always had really good TvT so I'm not surprised he's beating top terrans in the round of 8. I think he can definitely make it to the finals, there's nothing but Terrans left in his way unless Life falls to the losers' bracket
What have you thought about the games so far? There have been quite a few one-sided series, but does any individual game or series stand out to you?
I think definitely MC vs jjakji where we had a tie in game 5 and went to game 6 was definitely the highlight for me in the tournament so far..
Switching topics a little, you've moved to Korea to commentate Proleague and will keep casting for both Proleague and SpoTV next year. How has that been so far?
I most definitely should be doing SpoTV next year, also got to do a little Hot6ix Cup, it was fun! I've enjoyed the change from the life of a player to more of a caster, and I think it's going to be very exciting next season when I get to be a part of it right from the start. And with the dual leagues, too.
What do you think about Proleague so far, as a tournament overall?
It's one of the oldest tournaments for Starcraft overall and I feel honored to get to do casting for it and I'm fortunate to do it next year as well. It's definitely the highest level of play anywhere and I'm just happy to get to be involved.
I'm sure you've heard about the roster changes and the shuffling. What do you think about the changes made to the teams for next year?
I think it's a shame that many of the Koreans think they can get a better deal outside of Korea than they can in Korea, it's a real shame given that their practice regimen overseas often suffers. I'm sure that's a factor behind why they move in the first place, but it's sad to see them drop from the top. It's a bit disappointing for me because I am in the Korean scene and get to watch all of their games, but maybe they can make something happen in the foreigner scene. We'll have to see where they end up.
With the changes that have been announced for WCS 2015, almost every Korean player will be coming back to Korea to play there because of the region lock. Do you think this is a good change or did you prefer the three region system?
I think it's a good system that'll help the other scenes grow more independently instead of a hitsquad of Koreans coming over to beat everyone kind of senseless. It's a good thing for the Korean scene as well, as the scene will get a lot [emph.] more competitive with the influx of new top players. With the Korean SC schedule next year with both SpoTV and GomTV it'll be very, very exciting
Many people talk about the issue of the Korean scene being oversaturated. Do you think the dual league solves the problem completely, or is there still room for improvement?
It relieves some stress from that issue, for sure, and I can say for certain that it'll be a lot better than it has before. Always hard to say what exactly will go down, though, but I think it'll be a lot better.
So regarding WCS as a whole and its goals, it all leads up to Blizzcon at the end of the year. Compared to last year, did you think that [I trail off when a ping-pong ball flies past me and Moonglade stares mysteriously]... Did you think that the players that ended up at Blizzcon this year were all deserving of being there? Some people say that ”Non-Korean” Koreans are worse overall than the domestic Koreans, yet there were numerous upsets with players that haven't performed well in Korea or played there at all making it far. Is the idea of ”Korean” Koreans being far better off-basis or is there some truth to it?
I think the players that stay in Korea CAN show better games, but when you go to a tournament whatever overall advantage they may have is nullified. A player like soO or Innovation might be great but at a tournament like Blizzcon you need other strengths compared to when you get to sit at home and prepare for a week. They're good at research and analysis, but it's a different level of chaos at a tournament like Blizzcon. So yeah, I think that players like Taeja and Life etc. have an advantage because they're so used to travelling and dealing with jet lag. Different kinds of tournaments for different players, I suppose.
With all those things considered, who would you say is the best player in the world right now? Innovation and soO stood on top in Korea while Life won Blizzcon, so it gets kind of messy.
Technically I guess Life is right now, he's definitely on top of his game right now with how he looked at Blizzcon, but there's also players like Zest that performed essentially perfectly all year long... and soO. Getting 5 second places in a row is... It's not winning, but no one is that consistent. It's insane.
On the topic of soO, do you think after all his consecutive losses, he has finally broken? He looked pretty good at Blizzcon, but he looks more and more crushed with every loss and definitely looked pretty bad in the games he played after Blizzcon.
I think it looks like he's definitely broken mentally, yes. He looked good but tired at Blizzcon and in Hot6ix Cup he played pretty badly, getting cheesed out without having much to say about it. I think he's certainly long overdue for a bit of a break, maybe next year he can try again. It's got to affect you, right, getting those 5 tough second places in a row.
Technically 6, counting their Proleague loss to KT as well.
Oh shit, you're right. [Moonglade looks torn between being sad and laughing] Horrible, horrible year from a mental standpoint. Definitely a true kong year.
I don't think there has ever been another player with 5 (6) second places in such a short timespan. He's definitely a unique character in that
I don't think so either, and I don't think there ever will be again. The feat of getting to 5 finals on your own is crazy enough, but somehow losing all of them. It's a miracle, just... the wrong kind.
Going back to the topic of Proleague for a moment, which team are you looking at to make it far with roster changes and everything else in mind?
I think SKT is going to be surprisingly weak unless they find new players or manage to get Soulkey to come back to them, he's actually looking great right now. I like KT, always a contender, I like Jin Air – both look like top competitors for next season. And CJ, I hope they make more of a splash for next season than they did this time. They did well when they really had everything on the line, but they just came together too late. If they'd faced the other team in the playoffs instead of having to play SKT, they could have maybe made the finals and made something happen there. StarTale might be good with Life and Bomber on the team, but still too early to say how they'll do in the Proleague environment.
That's pretty much all the interesting questions I had for you. Any last thoughts, shoutouts, callouts?
I'm very happy with transitioning into commentating, and thanks to everyone that's supported me and my commenting and I promise to only get better. Things are looking great for Starcraft, next year should be very exciting for both fans and the players.
Thanks for taking time for this interview!
Alright, let's start off with how you're liking DH. You're in the hometown of Dreamhack, how are you enjoying your stay?
I've been loving DH. I've casted one Dreamhack before this one, but Dreamhack Winter is the biggest event i've been to outside Blizzcon. The Starcraft so far has been pretty good, but I think the top 4 should be very, very good. Very excited!
Who are you looking at to make the finals?
Should definitely be Life, I'm thinking it should be Taeja that joins him there unless ForGG can somehow beat him in TvT, which he is very, very good at.
Were you surprised by Taeja's loss to Life? Their series at Blizzcon was a nailbiter, this one... Wasn't.
Well, we did see Life win Blizzcon a few weeks ago, so I'm not entirely surprised, but they were very quick games with Life being insanely aggressive with ling/bane all-ins and whatnot. I guess I wasn't expecting Taeja to go down so quickly, but I think he'll be better prepared for the finals if he makes it there.
So how about ForGG? He's in the top 4 of Dreamhack Winter after not doing too much this year. Did that surprise you?
It does, it does, but he's always had really good TvT so I'm not surprised he's beating top terrans in the round of 8. I think he can definitely make it to the finals, there's nothing but Terrans left in his way unless Life falls to the losers' bracket
What have you thought about the games so far? There have been quite a few one-sided series, but does any individual game or series stand out to you?
I think definitely MC vs jjakji where we had a tie in game 5 and went to game 6 was definitely the highlight for me in the tournament so far..
Switching topics a little, you've moved to Korea to commentate Proleague and will keep casting for both Proleague and SpoTV next year. How has that been so far?
I most definitely should be doing SpoTV next year, also got to do a little Hot6ix Cup, it was fun! I've enjoyed the change from the life of a player to more of a caster, and I think it's going to be very exciting next season when I get to be a part of it right from the start. And with the dual leagues, too.
What do you think about Proleague so far, as a tournament overall?
It's one of the oldest tournaments for Starcraft overall and I feel honored to get to do casting for it and I'm fortunate to do it next year as well. It's definitely the highest level of play anywhere and I'm just happy to get to be involved.
I'm sure you've heard about the roster changes and the shuffling. What do you think about the changes made to the teams for next year?
I think it's a shame that many of the Koreans think they can get a better deal outside of Korea than they can in Korea, it's a real shame given that their practice regimen overseas often suffers. I'm sure that's a factor behind why they move in the first place, but it's sad to see them drop from the top. It's a bit disappointing for me because I am in the Korean scene and get to watch all of their games, but maybe they can make something happen in the foreigner scene. We'll have to see where they end up.
With the changes that have been announced for WCS 2015, almost every Korean player will be coming back to Korea to play there because of the region lock. Do you think this is a good change or did you prefer the three region system?
I think it's a good system that'll help the other scenes grow more independently instead of a hitsquad of Koreans coming over to beat everyone kind of senseless. It's a good thing for the Korean scene as well, as the scene will get a lot [emph.] more competitive with the influx of new top players. With the Korean SC schedule next year with both SpoTV and GomTV it'll be very, very exciting
Many people talk about the issue of the Korean scene being oversaturated. Do you think the dual league solves the problem completely, or is there still room for improvement?
It relieves some stress from that issue, for sure, and I can say for certain that it'll be a lot better than it has before. Always hard to say what exactly will go down, though, but I think it'll be a lot better.
So regarding WCS as a whole and its goals, it all leads up to Blizzcon at the end of the year. Compared to last year, did you think that [I trail off when a ping-pong ball flies past me and Moonglade stares mysteriously]... Did you think that the players that ended up at Blizzcon this year were all deserving of being there? Some people say that ”Non-Korean” Koreans are worse overall than the domestic Koreans, yet there were numerous upsets with players that haven't performed well in Korea or played there at all making it far. Is the idea of ”Korean” Koreans being far better off-basis or is there some truth to it?
I think the players that stay in Korea CAN show better games, but when you go to a tournament whatever overall advantage they may have is nullified. A player like soO or Innovation might be great but at a tournament like Blizzcon you need other strengths compared to when you get to sit at home and prepare for a week. They're good at research and analysis, but it's a different level of chaos at a tournament like Blizzcon. So yeah, I think that players like Taeja and Life etc. have an advantage because they're so used to travelling and dealing with jet lag. Different kinds of tournaments for different players, I suppose.
With all those things considered, who would you say is the best player in the world right now? Innovation and soO stood on top in Korea while Life won Blizzcon, so it gets kind of messy.
Technically I guess Life is right now, he's definitely on top of his game right now with how he looked at Blizzcon, but there's also players like Zest that performed essentially perfectly all year long... and soO. Getting 5 second places in a row is... It's not winning, but no one is that consistent. It's insane.
On the topic of soO, do you think after all his consecutive losses, he has finally broken? He looked pretty good at Blizzcon, but he looks more and more crushed with every loss and definitely looked pretty bad in the games he played after Blizzcon.
I think it looks like he's definitely broken mentally, yes. He looked good but tired at Blizzcon and in Hot6ix Cup he played pretty badly, getting cheesed out without having much to say about it. I think he's certainly long overdue for a bit of a break, maybe next year he can try again. It's got to affect you, right, getting those 5 tough second places in a row.
Technically 6, counting their Proleague loss to KT as well.
Oh shit, you're right. [Moonglade looks torn between being sad and laughing] Horrible, horrible year from a mental standpoint. Definitely a true kong year.
I don't think there has ever been another player with 5 (6) second places in such a short timespan. He's definitely a unique character in that
I don't think so either, and I don't think there ever will be again. The feat of getting to 5 finals on your own is crazy enough, but somehow losing all of them. It's a miracle, just... the wrong kind.
Going back to the topic of Proleague for a moment, which team are you looking at to make it far with roster changes and everything else in mind?
I think SKT is going to be surprisingly weak unless they find new players or manage to get Soulkey to come back to them, he's actually looking great right now. I like KT, always a contender, I like Jin Air – both look like top competitors for next season. And CJ, I hope they make more of a splash for next season than they did this time. They did well when they really had everything on the line, but they just came together too late. If they'd faced the other team in the playoffs instead of having to play SKT, they could have maybe made the finals and made something happen there. StarTale might be good with Life and Bomber on the team, but still too early to say how they'll do in the Proleague environment.
That's pretty much all the interesting questions I had for you. Any last thoughts, shoutouts, callouts?
I'm very happy with transitioning into commentating, and thanks to everyone that's supported me and my commenting and I promise to only get better. Things are looking great for Starcraft, next year should be very exciting for both fans and the players.
Thanks for taking time for this interview!
+ Show Spoiler [interview with Wolf] +
To complement the interview with his partner-in-crime, I e-sat down with Wolf to talk about WCS, the future of the Korean scene, Proleague, casting and everything in between. This interview took place on December 10th.
So to start off, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Proleague season that ended this summer. Unquestionably it was a step up from the 12-13 season both in terms of production and level of play, and I'd like to know what you think about the season as a whole looking back.
Last season was definitely a step up. First things first, we had the Nexon Arena. That place is beautiful. Two whole floors of seating, proper booths, and a nice stage. Not to mention the giant screen.
In eSports in general, fans want a feeling of 'legitimacy'. When you're watching players play out of a glorified PC방, you don't get that feel. When you sense the studio is empty, you don't get that feel. When the studio is packed and you're watching at home, you think "Well, damn. What have we here? aliev game?" When you hear the fangirls scream, and players on the stage, you get hyped. In the 12-13 season, that wasn't there.
It's a snowball effect, really. Even if you're a local Korean fan, when you see that stage, you think, "Well, I've got to go down there! Look how awesome that looks!" And people show up. And they tell their friends and their friends, etcetera.
For the foreign scene, I really think that, especially in the earlier rounds of last season, the community REALLY helped push Proleague's 'legitimacy'. There were hype videos, highlight reels, tons of posts and a lot of energy. I really pushed for that last season, along with Brendan.
We can cast the games and make them exciting. The players are, undoubtedly, the best in the world. But without the fans, none of this exists. And I said it over and over last season, and I'll say it again now, "Tell a friend about this beautiful thing that you love." Spreading the word offline, forum discussion, comments, threads, gifs, everything counts. Last year, the community did all that and more.
How much of a role do you think the SC2 community having become more familiar with KeSPA players helped out? Unlike 12-13, Zest and Flash (for SC2 games, that is) and soO and herO were known names at this point, along with the three ex-eSF teams. Do you think that played a part?
I think so, definitely. During the 12-13 season, the KeSPA players were improving, but they were not up-to-par with the ESF teams yet. On top of that, there were often scheduling conflicts with the GSTL. The community had already grown up around GOMTV, the GSL, and, of course, the GSTL. The players were known, and the subscriptions were there, etcetera. The model was familiar.
The KeSPA players weren't considered as strong as the ESF players in the fans' eyes either, I think. They definitely weren't in mine. A few outspoken posters saying "Just wait just wait" and "You'll see you'll see" wasn't very convincing. The 'elephant in the room' idea definitely stirred up some discussion, but it really wasn't until KeSPA players starting beating ESF players regularly in 2013 that people realized their full potential.
By that time, they had become more known, and people were saying that ESF was dying, there were fears there wouldn't be another GSTL... The best players in the world weren't really ESF players anymore. People were excited to see what would happen in Proleague with newly solidified teams as well as three ex-ESF favorites thrown into the mix. Then it just happened.
Do you think that the dissolution of eSF in favor of a more KeSPA-centric scene has been good or bad for SC2? We're certainly in a different spot now compared to 18 months ago, and KeSPA has a more prominent role in modern-day SC2.
That's a pretty tough question to answer. I guess it really depends on who you ask. I think a lot of players really got hurt by it. If you think of any ESF B-Teamer, they're probably gone now. Some of them had to move on in their lives, quitting StarCraft and either getting 'normal jobs', or joining the military. It was really sad for me to watch them go. A lot of coaches/staff lost their jobs too. And the GSTL disappeared. Ever since I came to Korea, the GSTL was kinda 'my thing'. More than Code A, I cast every GSTL match since I moved to Seoul. But I guess that's mostly 'personal' stuff.
'Good or bad' objectively? Well, in Korea, SC2 is looking better. Players who were on financially struggling teams but were doing very well individually found homes. KeSPA teams have always had sponsors. Big sponsors, in fact. You can Google 'chaebol' to get an idea of how big. These sponsors are similar to AT&T, Verizon, and Apple, if you want to make a US comparison. The infrastructure was already in place for players to get paid. So for the better players, it was definitely good.
To give the bottom line, I think things were headed in the wrong direction in Korea. Now they're headed in the right one. Change is always hard, and it almost never happens without stepping on some toes, but I think this shift is for the best.
The GSTL had its history in SC2 and its fair share of great and memorable moments, it was really unfortunate that it couldn't work out somehow. But given how 2015 looks, it would have had to make way for other leagues eventually anyway. So on the note of 2015, dual leagues are a thing now! I spoke with Moonglade at Dreamhack Winter and hope to catch Brendan as well, but I'd like to know what you think about the idea of dual leagues. Is it a better solution than piling more money and points on the GSL, or will it be a bit too stressful for the players playing GSL/SSL/PL?
StarCraft in Korea always worked best in dual leagues. Think back to the OSL/MSL. Why was it so successful?Competition. It's win-win. If there's some serious competition, the companies will try to one-up each-other. That means more production value, better intro videos, larger-scale finals... The fans win. Both companies have to fight to strive to be the best.
The players will be stressed a bit more, no doubt. But imagine if you fail to qualify for SSL. Well, that's okay, there's GSL too. Fail both? You've still got a great chance to prove yourself in Proleague. If you're a good enough player, you're basically guaranteed air-time. That means you'll stay relevant, and you'll be able to prove to your team, as best you can, that you're worth it.
The BEST players in the world might end up playing in all three. That's insanely stressful. Imagine prepping for two groups at once, and knowing your map and opponent for Proleague, as well as potentially being put in the ace match. So what happens then? In my opinion, it means we'll have a lot more rotations in Proleague. The best might not always be able to play. They don't want to show styles, strategies. In individual leagues, there will likely be more upsets. Players who focus on one group over trying to focus on two will have an inherent advantage. No question there. Upsets are good. They're exciting.
Lastly, if you're a fan of one player in particular.. Let's say, TY for example. If he fails to qualify for SSL, you can see him try for GSL. If he's in both, if he loses in one, you can hope he'll do better in the other. You have more chances to see your player perform. That's not even counting Proleague, where he's likely to appear. I think hardcore fans of players individually, rather than fans of teams, will really enjoy this.
I'm really excited, and I think dual leagues are really great for Korean SC2.
As I understand you'll be a regular caster for Proleague as you were last season and also work with SpoTV for SSL along with your two partners in crime. If you could describe your feelings for 2015 in terms of Starcraft, what would you say?
If I had to sum up my feelings for StarCraft 2 in 2015, I guess the best word that comes to mind is 'excited'. We've got dual leagues, and StarCraft year round. More opportunities for players, as well as fans! With two huge studios producing regular SC2 content, there's always something to watch. Always something to learn. With the new WCS rules, we'll also have some returning Korean players who are big fan favorites. I really feel like, once more, Korea is the region to watch. It's the place to be if you want to watch the best StarCraft in the world. And now it's happening basically all week long, all year long. Even if you can't stay up, you'll have hours and hours of VODs to check out on your PC when you get up in the morning. It's incredible, really.
I asked Moonglade this question as well, so I have to ask you: we put a lot of weight on predictions at TL (because everything is a competition), and I'd be interested in hearing yours for the upcoming season. What team(s) are you looking at to make a good run / a better run that most people expect?
For next season of Proleague, I was originally saying, over and over, watch out for Samsung Khan. Reality was solidifying himself. Stork was a new beast. Dear, well, he's Dear. Shine was finding his place as a great Sniper, and Solar was still looking on point. RorO never lost ZvPs, especially never on his map. Many called him the best Zerg in the world... Reality and RorO left, though. Stork is now a 'playing coach', and the track record for that to be a good thing for players, is, well, never very good.
That aside, Samsung could do well. CJ Entus is going to do much better than people think. I don't think you can go into this season of SPL thinking that SKT and KT are clear favorites. CJ looks incredibly strong. Don't forget JinAir, either. Even though Maru fell off at the end of this year, I have faith. So does sOs. And MVP, well... MVP looks a bit reorganized. I wouldn't be surprised for them to have a solid Round 1 performance, with MarineKing leading the charge. StarTale looks scary, but who knows.
Never count out the Telecoms, though. SKT lost some key players, but gained some greats as well. And the defending champion KT Rolster doesn't look even a tad bit weaker than when we ended last season. In fact, many of their players look even tougher. It's gonna be a great season.
If you could make one change to the way Proleague is run in terms of map, format, number of teams, players invited, parnerships, anything, what would it be? (You can say something that's going to change anyway but hasn't been announced yet)
Hmm, good question. I realllllly like how the format is. I think it's basically perfect. I really enjoy the all-kill format, once in a while, but that's what Playoffs are for. It's the perfect balance of two formats. If I could just wish for one thing, it'd be to replace one of the teams with a foreigner all-star team. I guess that's just a dream of mine, but foreigners generally do better in Korea than people give them credit for, and I would love to see it in action. Think F-United from old GSTL days, but with current players. I know it's not reasonable in today's HUGE tournament scene (DH, IEM, etc). Too much travel. Can't live in Korea. But if I had a magic lamp...
If you have anything else you'd like to bring up or say to people, feel free to do that! Bonus points if you call someone out.
That's all I think. Get hyped, SC2 fans!
Thanks for taking time for this interview!
So to start off, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Proleague season that ended this summer. Unquestionably it was a step up from the 12-13 season both in terms of production and level of play, and I'd like to know what you think about the season as a whole looking back.
Last season was definitely a step up. First things first, we had the Nexon Arena. That place is beautiful. Two whole floors of seating, proper booths, and a nice stage. Not to mention the giant screen.
In eSports in general, fans want a feeling of 'legitimacy'. When you're watching players play out of a glorified PC방, you don't get that feel. When you sense the studio is empty, you don't get that feel. When the studio is packed and you're watching at home, you think "Well, damn. What have we here? aliev game?" When you hear the fangirls scream, and players on the stage, you get hyped. In the 12-13 season, that wasn't there.
It's a snowball effect, really. Even if you're a local Korean fan, when you see that stage, you think, "Well, I've got to go down there! Look how awesome that looks!" And people show up. And they tell their friends and their friends, etcetera.
For the foreign scene, I really think that, especially in the earlier rounds of last season, the community REALLY helped push Proleague's 'legitimacy'. There were hype videos, highlight reels, tons of posts and a lot of energy. I really pushed for that last season, along with Brendan.
We can cast the games and make them exciting. The players are, undoubtedly, the best in the world. But without the fans, none of this exists. And I said it over and over last season, and I'll say it again now, "Tell a friend about this beautiful thing that you love." Spreading the word offline, forum discussion, comments, threads, gifs, everything counts. Last year, the community did all that and more.
How much of a role do you think the SC2 community having become more familiar with KeSPA players helped out? Unlike 12-13, Zest and Flash (for SC2 games, that is) and soO and herO were known names at this point, along with the three ex-eSF teams. Do you think that played a part?
I think so, definitely. During the 12-13 season, the KeSPA players were improving, but they were not up-to-par with the ESF teams yet. On top of that, there were often scheduling conflicts with the GSTL. The community had already grown up around GOMTV, the GSL, and, of course, the GSTL. The players were known, and the subscriptions were there, etcetera. The model was familiar.
The KeSPA players weren't considered as strong as the ESF players in the fans' eyes either, I think. They definitely weren't in mine. A few outspoken posters saying "Just wait just wait" and "You'll see you'll see" wasn't very convincing. The 'elephant in the room' idea definitely stirred up some discussion, but it really wasn't until KeSPA players starting beating ESF players regularly in 2013 that people realized their full potential.
By that time, they had become more known, and people were saying that ESF was dying, there were fears there wouldn't be another GSTL... The best players in the world weren't really ESF players anymore. People were excited to see what would happen in Proleague with newly solidified teams as well as three ex-ESF favorites thrown into the mix. Then it just happened.
Do you think that the dissolution of eSF in favor of a more KeSPA-centric scene has been good or bad for SC2? We're certainly in a different spot now compared to 18 months ago, and KeSPA has a more prominent role in modern-day SC2.
That's a pretty tough question to answer. I guess it really depends on who you ask. I think a lot of players really got hurt by it. If you think of any ESF B-Teamer, they're probably gone now. Some of them had to move on in their lives, quitting StarCraft and either getting 'normal jobs', or joining the military. It was really sad for me to watch them go. A lot of coaches/staff lost their jobs too. And the GSTL disappeared. Ever since I came to Korea, the GSTL was kinda 'my thing'. More than Code A, I cast every GSTL match since I moved to Seoul. But I guess that's mostly 'personal' stuff.
'Good or bad' objectively? Well, in Korea, SC2 is looking better. Players who were on financially struggling teams but were doing very well individually found homes. KeSPA teams have always had sponsors. Big sponsors, in fact. You can Google 'chaebol' to get an idea of how big. These sponsors are similar to AT&T, Verizon, and Apple, if you want to make a US comparison. The infrastructure was already in place for players to get paid. So for the better players, it was definitely good.
To give the bottom line, I think things were headed in the wrong direction in Korea. Now they're headed in the right one. Change is always hard, and it almost never happens without stepping on some toes, but I think this shift is for the best.
The GSTL had its history in SC2 and its fair share of great and memorable moments, it was really unfortunate that it couldn't work out somehow. But given how 2015 looks, it would have had to make way for other leagues eventually anyway. So on the note of 2015, dual leagues are a thing now! I spoke with Moonglade at Dreamhack Winter and hope to catch Brendan as well, but I'd like to know what you think about the idea of dual leagues. Is it a better solution than piling more money and points on the GSL, or will it be a bit too stressful for the players playing GSL/SSL/PL?
StarCraft in Korea always worked best in dual leagues. Think back to the OSL/MSL. Why was it so successful?Competition. It's win-win. If there's some serious competition, the companies will try to one-up each-other. That means more production value, better intro videos, larger-scale finals... The fans win. Both companies have to fight to strive to be the best.
The players will be stressed a bit more, no doubt. But imagine if you fail to qualify for SSL. Well, that's okay, there's GSL too. Fail both? You've still got a great chance to prove yourself in Proleague. If you're a good enough player, you're basically guaranteed air-time. That means you'll stay relevant, and you'll be able to prove to your team, as best you can, that you're worth it.
The BEST players in the world might end up playing in all three. That's insanely stressful. Imagine prepping for two groups at once, and knowing your map and opponent for Proleague, as well as potentially being put in the ace match. So what happens then? In my opinion, it means we'll have a lot more rotations in Proleague. The best might not always be able to play. They don't want to show styles, strategies. In individual leagues, there will likely be more upsets. Players who focus on one group over trying to focus on two will have an inherent advantage. No question there. Upsets are good. They're exciting.
Lastly, if you're a fan of one player in particular.. Let's say, TY for example. If he fails to qualify for SSL, you can see him try for GSL. If he's in both, if he loses in one, you can hope he'll do better in the other. You have more chances to see your player perform. That's not even counting Proleague, where he's likely to appear. I think hardcore fans of players individually, rather than fans of teams, will really enjoy this.
I'm really excited, and I think dual leagues are really great for Korean SC2.
As I understand you'll be a regular caster for Proleague as you were last season and also work with SpoTV for SSL along with your two partners in crime. If you could describe your feelings for 2015 in terms of Starcraft, what would you say?
If I had to sum up my feelings for StarCraft 2 in 2015, I guess the best word that comes to mind is 'excited'. We've got dual leagues, and StarCraft year round. More opportunities for players, as well as fans! With two huge studios producing regular SC2 content, there's always something to watch. Always something to learn. With the new WCS rules, we'll also have some returning Korean players who are big fan favorites. I really feel like, once more, Korea is the region to watch. It's the place to be if you want to watch the best StarCraft in the world. And now it's happening basically all week long, all year long. Even if you can't stay up, you'll have hours and hours of VODs to check out on your PC when you get up in the morning. It's incredible, really.
I asked Moonglade this question as well, so I have to ask you: we put a lot of weight on predictions at TL (because everything is a competition), and I'd be interested in hearing yours for the upcoming season. What team(s) are you looking at to make a good run / a better run that most people expect?
For next season of Proleague, I was originally saying, over and over, watch out for Samsung Khan. Reality was solidifying himself. Stork was a new beast. Dear, well, he's Dear. Shine was finding his place as a great Sniper, and Solar was still looking on point. RorO never lost ZvPs, especially never on his map. Many called him the best Zerg in the world... Reality and RorO left, though. Stork is now a 'playing coach', and the track record for that to be a good thing for players, is, well, never very good.
That aside, Samsung could do well. CJ Entus is going to do much better than people think. I don't think you can go into this season of SPL thinking that SKT and KT are clear favorites. CJ looks incredibly strong. Don't forget JinAir, either. Even though Maru fell off at the end of this year, I have faith. So does sOs. And MVP, well... MVP looks a bit reorganized. I wouldn't be surprised for them to have a solid Round 1 performance, with MarineKing leading the charge. StarTale looks scary, but who knows.
Never count out the Telecoms, though. SKT lost some key players, but gained some greats as well. And the defending champion KT Rolster doesn't look even a tad bit weaker than when we ended last season. In fact, many of their players look even tougher. It's gonna be a great season.
If you could make one change to the way Proleague is run in terms of map, format, number of teams, players invited, parnerships, anything, what would it be? (You can say something that's going to change anyway but hasn't been announced yet)
Hmm, good question. I realllllly like how the format is. I think it's basically perfect. I really enjoy the all-kill format, once in a while, but that's what Playoffs are for. It's the perfect balance of two formats. If I could just wish for one thing, it'd be to replace one of the teams with a foreigner all-star team. I guess that's just a dream of mine, but foreigners generally do better in Korea than people give them credit for, and I would love to see it in action. Think F-United from old GSTL days, but with current players. I know it's not reasonable in today's HUGE tournament scene (DH, IEM, etc). Too much travel. Can't live in Korea. But if I had a magic lamp...
If you have anything else you'd like to bring up or say to people, feel free to do that! Bonus points if you call someone out.
That's all I think. Get hyped, SC2 fans!
Thanks for taking time for this interview!
+ Show Spoiler [Interview with Brendan Valdes] +
Unlike Wolf and Moonglade, Brendan Valdes remains a relatively unknown caster despite a full season of Proleague behind him. I had a chat with him about being the luckiest guy on Earth, Proleague, favorite teams and being god.
Out of the three of you (Wolf, Moonglade, Brendan Valdes), you're likely the least well-known. Given how late you came into SC2 as a caster and with how few people knew you beforehand, could you introduce yourself? Who is Brendan Valdes?
Hello, my name is Brendan Valdes. I used to go by the ID Brendan which I felt was a little too generic given the other million dudes also called Brendan, so for the upcoming season I'm also going to go by the ID Brendan Valdes. I'm 23, from New York New York – the city that is – and I came to Korea 2.5 years ago in May of 2012. I had just won a raffle held by Azubu where the prize was being flown out to Korea to watch OGN The Champions season 1 live. I got the full VIP treatment: tickets, the tour, everything paid. At this point I was playing at the semi-pro level in League of Legends and had played at a high Masters level in Starcraft II.
I discovered that I really enjoyed everything about Korea, so after my stay was supposed to end I extended my stay for a week, which became a month, at which point I got in touch with Azubu wondering if I could work with them. They asked me to submit a Diablo guide (which I stayed up all night writing) as kind of a test, and when I sent it in they told me essentially ”Cool, you're hired.”
During OGN Season 2, one of the casters – Torch – had to fly back to the US for a wedding, so Azubu asked me if I could help out with casting The Champions for a while. I was ecstatic, casting OGN alongside Torch and Moletrap. Eventually SpoTV reached out to me about casting Proleague, and since I was playing a bunch of Starcraft at the time I thought ”Yeah, I can cast this”. I'd actually met Wolf at WCG in China, so to make a long story shorter it's kind of amazing how things worked out with me eventually ending up on the caster's desk next to Wolf, casting Proleague.
So in other words, you're that lucky guy everyone hopes to be.
Absolutely, I consider myself very lucky. Even when I started casting OGN and later Proleague I was just this semi-pro who'd been at the right place at the right time. I remember a lot of reactions when I started casting Proleague that were basically ”Who the hell is this LoL guy?”, but you know, I did my best and... Here we are.
When you appeared on the caster desk at the beginning of the season, it's fair to say that most people didn't know who you were and that you didn't have a lot of experience casting high-level SC2. Getting to cast the most prestigious, most storied league in Starcraft right off the bat, what was that like?
Oh, it was huge. Unlike many fans I didn't have a big Brood War background, I only started following Starcraft at the beginning of SC2 so I didn't know a lot about Proleague or any of the legacies left behind by Brood War. I knew it had a huge history that I respected, but I wasn't really watching it back in the day. But when I heard all the stories I was really like ”Wow... this is really the Proleague.” And just getting to be up on stage and cast these games alongside Wolf and Moonglade for most of the season... It was so much fun. Just an incredible experience that I wouldn't trade for anything.
Last season was unquestionably a step up from the 12-13 season in terms of both production and game quality, but what are your thoughts about the season as a whole and how it played out?
On the whole I thought it was very, very good. I didn't get to watch most of the 12-13 season so I can't really comment on that, but in the 13-14 season there were just a ton of great stories that were going on with players making names for themselves. Byul, Dark, even Maru being so dominant, sOs and herO ending up on top of the rankings in very different ways. There was Jin Air and CJ putting up a huge fight at the end and the season ending with the perfect finals of KT facing SKT. When Flash beat Parting... The finals were absolutely insane, definitely my favorite and most memorable cast and perfect end to the season. And honestly, I expect similar to next season with KT and SKT still maintaining their top status even though we're seeing all these roster changes, even entire teams mixed around, but I really think anyone could take it.
You mentioned the finals as your favorite cast, do you have any other memorable moments from the season that really made you go ”Wow, this is so good, I can't believe what I'm seeing”?
Wow, that's hard. I'll need to think about this because there are a lot of them that stand out. Hmm, favorite match outside the finals. I'm having a tough time just picking one here, but if I had to pick a favorite game – this might surprise some people – I would say Sora vs Zest on Maze. It might surprise some people but I thought it was just a great game all round, super late game Airtoss PvP with Zest trying to find another solution at the end with Zealot Archon but eventually couldn't. Or actually, I like that as a story but I wouldn't call it my favorite game because I just remembered Soulkey vs Reality.
Oh, yeah. That happened...
It's actually crazy looking back and thinking about this insane two and a half hour game that ended in a draw with Swarm Hosts just running in circles around Reality, and then the re-game was an hour long as well. That was so crazy, something like that had never happened in Proleague and people didn't really know what to do about it. I like that game a lot.
As for stories though, there are a lot of them. I like Zest making a gigantic name for himself by taking down these big names and eventually just becoming this Protoss powerhouse. I like Flash, with all the hype surrounding him and raking in a bunch of wins and eventually that match vs Parting in the finals. Outside of those, I like the Prime fan club. Prime was the last team pretty much every round and kept getting crushed, and people kept showing up with the Prime banner and spreading the Prime love on the forums. Despite their performances people just kept pulling for them, so when they won you could just see the happiness. Even though, you know, they didn't eventually do that well it was still great to watch.
Do you think what Prime needs is another player, a bigger roster, or just Byun? He said a few days ago on his stream that he's going to play Proleague, so he could maybe theoretically play a part again.
I think they're going to do much better this season, I actually think they might end up 4th or 5th. They have Creator, and Terror. They have these players that they kept putting out those players that didn't do so well but you could see how they had talent and just needed more time. If they kept practising and Byun comes back to complement the roster, I see them getting a much better placing than last season. Maybe not top 4, but definitely better.
You said you came into the scene rather late and don't have a lot of experience and background in the scene, but I'd love to hear what you think about Starcraft going forward. A lot of changes are happening and going to happen, what are your thoughts on the big picture?
Well, I'm sure you're familiar with the term ”ded game” too, after rise of other games sc losing popularity in korea, interesting because i love game, thought it was funny, community takes it seriously ”omg downhill”, I was like i dunno man, love the game, all that matters. Enjoyed playing, casting, no bs about LoL or other games getting in the way, still enjoyed it. LotV next year, totally change the game, more fast-paced and action, more room for micro tricks, gonna improve the game, HotS too slow and clunky mechanics, encourage passive play in mid/late game, next year even huger than 2014, probably going to grow, can't wait,
Speaking of those changes, we have dual leagues now! With the SSL and the GSL coupled with Proleague, do you think the tournament circuit will be too stressful for the players or is it a step in the right direction?
It's good. It gives players another chance so to speak, so if a player doesn't make one he can still walk across the street and have a chance to get into the other other. Obviously we're still going to have the best players in both, and more SC in Korea is never wrong. I guess it allows more talent to develop and a lot more healthy competition given recent WCS changes. What I don't want to see is this stupid ”competition” between the two and people arguing endlessly over which is better, that's just... not useful.
But yeah, we're gonna be able to see players in both even if they're not the ones we expected. The qualifiers were yesterday and a lot of big names actually didn't make it. sOs, who just won Hot6ix Cup, he didn't make it, same with soO, which kind of tells you just how brutal those qualifiers are. I also like that it opens up for unknown players to make names for themselves like in Brood War. There are no really unknown players in SSL yet that no one's ever heard of, we've got players like Terminator and Myungsik, players that werent expected to get in but often do anyway. But so far no one, which can feel a bit boring. This opens up for that, so overall definitely good.
Just as I did with Wolf, I have to ask you about the now-infamous soO. He lost at Blizzcon, he lost 4 times in the GSL, he lost at Dreamhack, SKT lost the Proleague finals... It's a lot of weight to carry for any player. Do you think he's broken mentally at this point?
I don't know. I was thinking the same thing, he's really been on a... I guess ”downward swing”, but he's still getting all of these crazy placings, second over and over and over again. But again, he didn't qualify for SSL, but I feel like he's gonna keep pushing on until he gets that win. I mean everyone knows about ”angry soO” at this point right? When I look into his eyes I just see this anger, passion, determination for a win, maybe Artosis really did curse him, as long as he's doing as well as he is he's gonna continue playing. He's making decent money and ton of fame, one of the best Zergs, will probably get a title next year.
You say that despite what happened at Dreamhack.
I do, yeah. I mean he got stomped by Solar in the finals and it was rough for him, but Solar was also playing very well even recently in the SSL qualifiers, so I don't think there was any shame in it. The finals were a bit depressing for soO, but I'm excited to see how well both of them can do in the future. Solar kind of came out of the woodwork in last season of Proleague and I think he can just keep building on that.
On the topic of doing well, do you have predictions for the upcoming Proleague season? What team(s) and player(s) are you looking at to do well? Bonus points if you name a player that hasn't had a huge breakout yet but will next season.
(Quiet consideration) Hmm... Probably still gonna be KT, SKT, CJ, Jin Air for the top 4... Hm. If I had to pick one team, I would probably go with KT. They just have so many strong players. Oh and I just remembered that Zest also didn't make it through the SSL qualifiers, which was kind of shocking to me. Still, KT have the strongest roster for the upcoming season I think. Name a strong player, Zest, TY, Flash... You name it, they've got it. Just a super all-around strong and consistent team which is great for a team league. The gap between KT and SKT is small, but SKT is less consistent than KT in Proleague I'd say.
So, for players... One player who didn't do well this year but will next year? That is so tough man.
Just so you know, I'm going to hold this over you at the end of next year.
(Worried chuckle) Hmm... Not gonna use this as my prediction just yet, but one guy I am looking forward to seeing play is TerrOr. The guy got whacked around a lot and just looked so nervous and terrible, he actually did decently well in qualifiers which is very hard, but I won't go to him just yet. One player... I guess I can't say Marineking after Hot6ix. Do you mind if I bring up a list of players to look at?
That's fine (I mute my mic and laugh)
There's just so many players... sKyHigh is making a decent appearance with his Hot6ix Cup run, but I'm not sure I'd go with him either. This is so hard. The problem is most players that do this just come out of nowhere. I'm juggling a couple here, maybe Dark or Billowy... Terror maybe? (More quiet consideration)
Alright, I'm gonna go with Dark. Dark is my pick to be really great in 2015. The reason is that, looking at Terror – he's still too young, too nervous. Some players like Maru can be great when they're so young, but Terror needs more time. Dark is just so confident in his play, so intent on making a name for himself. He wants to be it, the guy. On a team like SKT, I think he's got the best shot.
With that done, let's go back to Proleague for a bit. Ignoring any inside information you may have, if you could make one change to Proleague – be it format, participating teams, maps, rules, anything – what would you do?
Wow, that's a hard question too. Last season I think some maps were kept around for too long, other maps not long enough because they were so crazy. Especially in team leagues I think map balance is less of an issue, like, Maze created a lot of fun games even though most of them were PvP, so I think it's fine if you know in advance what the map is and how to play it, it creates a new layer of strategy for the teams. Maybe you want to field your Protoss later, but can you risk losing Maze to do that? So if I could make one change, I'd be more open to changing maps quicker or slower. Format... I like the format as it is right now, no real changes that I could think of that I'd like to make. I really like the way they handled it last year with the altering between standard Proleague format and the all-kill format in the playoffs.
Looking at the eight teams set to play in Proleague this season, which one would you cheer for? Everyone has a favorite team, you must have one as well.
I really like CJ Entus. I like KT as well, everyone likes KT, but CJ to me feels like the MVP of last season, just better. They're just so happy, when I watch them play it's like they're a family rather than coworkers. They have Coach Park who is my favorite coach, as well. You can just tell he cares, it's incredible. When part of the booth fell on Gumiho, he was the first person in booth, almost like he was Gumiho's father... Yeah, you can tell he cares. I like atmosphere on bench a lot as well, usually very brotherly and optimistic and makes you want to root for them. Obviously they also have very good, good players which has made for a lot of fun matches. So overall I'd go with CJ Entus as my favorite team.
Last tough question! You can make one change to Starcraft. You have a genie that will grant one wish, be it to balance, tournament circuits, players, format, anything. What do you change?
One change? Wow. If this were Heart of the Swarm I'd have a bunch of suggestions, I guess, gripes. After seeing Legacy of the Void I don't really have that many concerns about balance and design at the moment. I'll have to think.
Doesn't have to necessarily be inside the game, it can be a change to a tournament or anything as well.
Oh, I'm god?
You're god. Wolf gave me an entire essay on this though, so I'm expecting a good answer.
One change to Starcraft it is, then. Well, I know it's already kind of done with Legacy of the Void, but the thing I most want to see is more of the crazy micro techniques that pro players can pull off. I think the reason people love to watch rather than play Starcraft is because of these things the pros can do that are just insane. You know, Maru's splitting and stutter stepping, wrecking a mineral line with a single oracle, weaving in and out of missile turrets. I want to see more opportunities for that. I love what they're doing with LotV, I think there's more of this being added in. So I really feel like people love watching because they get to see these crazy plays more so than in any other game, and I feel Blizzard is on the right track with Legacy of the Void. So I guess if I were to change something it would be that. Kind of a general answer, but it's a good answer and it's what I'd do.
That's all the interesting questions I had for you. If you want to give a shoutout, a callout, tell someone that they're silly, go ahead!
Um, well. Thank you for doing this interview, really excited to be doing an interview like this. I know people don't really know me that well yet, so I'm going to do my best casting Proleague and getting better at Starcraft. Been playing a lot with Moonglade lately, the expert on the panel, and I want to keep getting better from an analysis point of view. Improving my casting, all that. So look forward to that. Next year, there's some stuff to be announced that people should get excited about. Tell your friends to get back into Starcraft because the game as a whole is changing. The tournaments, the formats, balance, it's all going to be new. Next year is going to be so exciting and I just want to jump in, I think it's going to be even a hundred times better.
Thank you for participating in this interview!