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On November 24 2014 15:22 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 14:23 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 01:15 wei2coolman wrote:On November 23 2014 22:09 TLCJR4LIFE wrote:On November 22 2014 16:18 Slaughter wrote: Lets not get out of hand here with the grand generalizations. I would really like to see larger scale stats (which are hard to get) for these type of things before you start saying "they seem to be occurring more and more" by which you mean "the media is hyping them recently so you actually hear about a few cases that get to be high profile". It shouldn't happen ever. Yet it seems to happen on a bi-weekly basis. Pigs executing people for little to no reason. What normal person just walks around with a drawn, loaded gun. Accidental discharge != execution You should never blindly believe the account of someone who wields a monopoly on the use of force. "Liang and Landau retreated deeper into the stairwell and waited five minutes to report the shooting " (http://nypost.com/2014/11/23/apparent-deadly-missteps-in-police-shooting-of-unarmed-man/) Instead of providing first aid or calling for medical help the officers decided to think up a cover story for their actions irregardless of the impact it would have on the civilian they had shot. Clearly, both of these officers should be tried and found guilty of first degree murder. 5 minutes? That sure is a short period of time, especially if you are in distress over you know....shooting someone (especially if you did not intend to). So how exactly would your system work? If you privatize security the average citizen is still giving up "the monopoly" of force, just to a different entity. How is this any different? How does this solve this kind of problem? The same possibilities for mistakes or abuse exist.
Sorry what? Officers are supposed to buzz in as soon as possible after wounding anybody with their weapon or engaging in a fire fight, in case they need back up or an ambulance or just to report the situation. 5 minutes is life and death for anyone with a bullet wound, or the cops themselves if they are in danger. If you are in so much distress after firing your weapon as a cop that you can't just call it in, you shouldn't be a cop.
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On November 24 2014 16:44 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 15:22 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 14:23 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 01:15 wei2coolman wrote:On November 23 2014 22:09 TLCJR4LIFE wrote:On November 22 2014 16:18 Slaughter wrote: Lets not get out of hand here with the grand generalizations. I would really like to see larger scale stats (which are hard to get) for these type of things before you start saying "they seem to be occurring more and more" by which you mean "the media is hyping them recently so you actually hear about a few cases that get to be high profile". It shouldn't happen ever. Yet it seems to happen on a bi-weekly basis. Pigs executing people for little to no reason. What normal person just walks around with a drawn, loaded gun. Accidental discharge != execution You should never blindly believe the account of someone who wields a monopoly on the use of force. "Liang and Landau retreated deeper into the stairwell and waited five minutes to report the shooting " (http://nypost.com/2014/11/23/apparent-deadly-missteps-in-police-shooting-of-unarmed-man/) Instead of providing first aid or calling for medical help the officers decided to think up a cover story for their actions irregardless of the impact it would have on the civilian they had shot. Clearly, both of these officers should be tried and found guilty of first degree murder. 5 minutes? That sure is a short period of time, especially if you are in distress over you know....shooting someone (especially if you did not intend to). So how exactly would your system work? If you privatize security the average citizen is still giving up "the monopoly" of force, just to a different entity. How is this any different? How does this solve this kind of problem? The same possibilities for mistakes or abuse exist. Sorry what? Officers are supposed to buzz in as soon as possible after wounding anybody with their weapon or engaging in a fire fight, in case they need back up or an ambulance or just to report the situation. 5 minutes is life and death for anyone with a bullet wound, or the cops themselves if they are in danger. If you are in so much distress after firing your weapon as a cop that you can't just call it in, you shouldn't be a cop.
Yes it is life or death, I was more arguing against his assertion that they used that time to "think up a cover story".
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On November 24 2014 15:21 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 14:49 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 14:36 MattBarry wrote:On November 24 2014 14:35 Vegetarian wrote: More evidence against central planning the product of security:
"In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members.
Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse." (http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang?fullpage=1) Probably because there's no gangs in Utah (hyperbole). That's a pretty contrived example It was my understanding that the police are supposed to protect civilians from murder as opposed to committing 15% of all homicides in the given time frame. Simple solution to that. Just adopt the English way of doing it and don't give guns to the patrolling policemen. It is much harder to commit a homicide without a firearm.
Unlike England the U.S. has a massive gun culture behind it, and with the amount of guns circulating in the country, it would really be a severe problem to try and just remove guns from police officers when they are facing armed criminals on a daily basis.
Oh, and before saying nonsensical shit like 'WELL JUST BAN ALL GUNS' do realize that must of the firearms utilized in firearm related crimes are actually illegal and imported into the country. Not to mention firearm related crimes are at an all-time low.
I don't mean to derail the topic, but if you're going to just say stupid shit like this, I'm going to respond to it. I'm not pro-gun or anything, I'm just simply a realist that understands that the 'blanket' solutions that so many people try and come up with will simply not work.
In this particular instance, the rookie cop made a major mistake. That being said, whoever assigned two rookie cops to a high risk area is a fucking imbecile. No matter how short you are on officers, you never, ever, ever, ever, assign two rookies two such a high risk area by themselves. A rookie is going to make mistakes, no matter how you spin it. This was an accident waiting to happen that could have easily been prevented if the rookie was simply just assigned patrol with a veteran officer.
On November 24 2014 15:34 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 16:44 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. LOL that isn't even close to equivalent... there's a reason home owners accidently shoot family members when they think an intruder is in their house.. they're jumpy as shit, it's dark and they're scared just like this cop appears to have been. a girl getting assaulted on purpose by a criminal is not an accident Problem is, shooting randomly your gun at something unseen shouldn't be the natural response to being afraid. Also, and this is probably more debatable, I would go as far as to say that as a member of a police force, you should man the fuck up and not be the one being afraid. You're supposed to protect people, not kill them out of being a sissy.
When you have criminals that are armed with illegally imported fully automatic weapons, or high caliber hand guns that could crack somebody's ribs despite wearing a thick kevlar vest on, yeah, people tend to get jumpy. Society isn't perfect, and American society sure as hell isn't anywhere close to being perfect. The U.S. needs to do a much better job at regulating and controlling firearms, but we need to be somewhat realistic here, you're talking about a rookie cop with no veteran leading him in a high risk area well known for shootings/robberies/criminal activity in a low light setting, in a country that is notorious for it's relatively lax gun laws.
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On November 24 2014 17:05 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 15:21 Manit0u wrote:On November 24 2014 14:49 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 14:36 MattBarry wrote:On November 24 2014 14:35 Vegetarian wrote: More evidence against central planning the product of security:
"In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members.
Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse." (http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang?fullpage=1) Probably because there's no gangs in Utah (hyperbole). That's a pretty contrived example It was my understanding that the police are supposed to protect civilians from murder as opposed to committing 15% of all homicides in the given time frame. Simple solution to that. Just adopt the English way of doing it and don't give guns to the patrolling policemen. It is much harder to commit a homicide without a firearm. Unlike England the U.S. has a massive gun culture behind it, and with the amount of guns circulating in the country, it would really be a severe problem to try and just remove guns from police officers when they are facing armed criminals on a daily basis.
New York City has incredibly tough gun laws, I'm all for them not giving cops guns either.
Oh, and before saying nonsensical shit like 'WELL JUST BAN ALL GUNS' do realize that must of the firearms utilized in firearm related crimes are actually illegal and imported into the country. Not to mention firearm related crimes are at an all-time low.
I agree with you here. We're not allowed to turn this thread into a gun's rights, but I think that banning guns is largely unrealistic, it's also unconstitutional for us (and in my opinion counter-productive in fighting gun violence.)
In this particular instance, the rookie cop made a major mistake. That being said, whoever assigned two rookie cops to a high risk area is a fucking imbecile. No matter how short you are on officers, you never, ever, ever, ever, assign two rookies two such a high risk area by themselves. A rookie is going to make mistakes, no matter how you spin it. This was an accident waiting to happen that could have easily been prevented if the rookie was simply just assigned patrol with a veteran officer.
There are tons of incompetent cops in New York, because New York is ruled with an iron fist. Constant cracking down on non-violent crime creates too much work for police officers which results in a wider hiring and lower competency standards. Meanwhile, the non-violent criminals come out of prison often-times ready and willing to commit violent crimes.
TLDR: War on drugs is a failure and all substances need to be decriminalized, so that we can fire a ton incompetent of law enforcement.
Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 15:34 ZenithM wrote:On November 22 2014 16:44 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. LOL that isn't even close to equivalent... there's a reason home owners accidently shoot family members when they think an intruder is in their house.. they're jumpy as shit, it's dark and they're scared just like this cop appears to have been. a girl getting assaulted on purpose by a criminal is not an accident Problem is, shooting randomly your gun at something unseen shouldn't be the natural response to being afraid. Also, and this is probably more debatable, I would go as far as to say that as a member of a police force, you should man the fuck up and not be the one being afraid. You're supposed to protect people, not kill them out of being a sissy. When you have criminals that are armed with illegally imported fully automatic weapons, or high caliber hand guns that could crack somebody's ribs despite wearing a thick kevlar vest on, yeah, people tend to get jumpy. Society isn't perfect, and American society sure as hell isn't anywhere close to being perfect. The U.S. needs to do a much better job at regulating and controlling firearms, but we need to be somewhat realistic here, you're talking about a rookie cop with no veteran leading him in a high risk area well known for shootings/robberies/criminal activity in a low light setting, in a country that is notorious for it's relatively lax gun laws.
This is bullshit. Who cares if it's a rookie cop? He just killed someone. He had his gun drawn while walking up a stairwell inside an apartment building... This shit is inexcusable.
On November 24 2014 16:52 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 16:44 Caihead wrote:On November 24 2014 15:22 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 14:23 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 01:15 wei2coolman wrote:On November 23 2014 22:09 TLCJR4LIFE wrote:On November 22 2014 16:18 Slaughter wrote: Lets not get out of hand here with the grand generalizations. I would really like to see larger scale stats (which are hard to get) for these type of things before you start saying "they seem to be occurring more and more" by which you mean "the media is hyping them recently so you actually hear about a few cases that get to be high profile". It shouldn't happen ever. Yet it seems to happen on a bi-weekly basis. Pigs executing people for little to no reason. What normal person just walks around with a drawn, loaded gun. Accidental discharge != execution You should never blindly believe the account of someone who wields a monopoly on the use of force. "Liang and Landau retreated deeper into the stairwell and waited five minutes to report the shooting " (http://nypost.com/2014/11/23/apparent-deadly-missteps-in-police-shooting-of-unarmed-man/) Instead of providing first aid or calling for medical help the officers decided to think up a cover story for their actions irregardless of the impact it would have on the civilian they had shot. Clearly, both of these officers should be tried and found guilty of first degree murder. 5 minutes? That sure is a short period of time, especially if you are in distress over you know....shooting someone (especially if you did not intend to). So how exactly would your system work? If you privatize security the average citizen is still giving up "the monopoly" of force, just to a different entity. How is this any different? How does this solve this kind of problem? The same possibilities for mistakes or abuse exist. Sorry what? Officers are supposed to buzz in as soon as possible after wounding anybody with their weapon or engaging in a fire fight, in case they need back up or an ambulance or just to report the situation. 5 minutes is life and death for anyone with a bullet wound, or the cops themselves if they are in danger. If you are in so much distress after firing your weapon as a cop that you can't just call it in, you shouldn't be a cop. Yes it is life or death, I was more arguing against his assertion that they used that time to "think up a cover story".
I'm sure they spent some time talking to "get their story straight." It's probably not a cover up, since I doubt they intentionally killed the guy, if they did they would have fire off entire clips like they always do, but I'm sure they've omitted or exaggerated details to try to justify their actions as accidental. I wouldn't trust a report that says "very dark stairwell" down to every detail.
edit:
On November 23 2014 23:18 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 16:21 Kiarip wrote: Government literally creates criminals by making non-violent crap illegal. Then all of a sudden they feel like they need a ton of police officers which results in a bunch of incompetent, fat, mentally unstable/handicapped officers resulting in worthless cowardly pieces of failure killing innocent people either "preemptively" out of cowardice or on a power-trip. Then in order to avoid heavy lawsuits the cities and municipalities pass laws and encourage the creation of rules of engagement which allow cops to treat humans like cattle, which only further attracts low-lifes to the job. To believe this, you'd have to believe that nothing would be illegal even in an anarchic state. I highly doubt you believe that is the true original position. What? How does this even follow?
I'm not even an anarchist. I'm just saying that the government full-knowingly turns criminals out of non-violent individuals by making certain non-violent actions illegal. Then it uses high "estimated crime rates" as an excuse to expand the police force, which in turn reduces the competency level of the average police officer. In addition, it further justifies the expansion of the police force by demonstrating that prior expansions of the police force led to an increase in arrest and conviction rates. And in the end, to fully complete the vicious circle, they constantly push "hard on crime" policies which in reality only work to create more criminals either by expanding the definition of what a crime is (so that more people fit the definition of a criminal,) or by pushing harsher sentences on lighter criminals which only further pushes individuals into the life of crime.
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I don't know what people are expecting.
1. Media teaches fear before anything else, there are just bad people out there, and ebola. 2. US Police Officers are badly trained, given a gun an sent off. 3. Easy access to guns leads to very high number of potential shootings. And in shootings its better to pull the trigger first. It is like CoD ! 4. Media again, bringing every Police shooting to your attention, because it is a thing now. Letting everyone belief "it´s getting worse" striking fear. 5. People snapping over tiniest things. In Cologne a PizzaHut employe was stabbed to death by a customer complaining about "too much cheese on the crust".
Why ?
"We're the middle children of the history man, no purpose or place, we have no Great war, no Great depression, our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives, we've been all raised by television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires and movie gods and rock stars, but we won't and we're slowly learning that fact. and we're very very pissed off."
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On November 24 2014 17:41 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 17:05 superstartran wrote:On November 24 2014 15:21 Manit0u wrote:On November 24 2014 14:49 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 14:36 MattBarry wrote:On November 24 2014 14:35 Vegetarian wrote: More evidence against central planning the product of security:
"In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members.
Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse." (http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang?fullpage=1) Probably because there's no gangs in Utah (hyperbole). That's a pretty contrived example It was my understanding that the police are supposed to protect civilians from murder as opposed to committing 15% of all homicides in the given time frame. Simple solution to that. Just adopt the English way of doing it and don't give guns to the patrolling policemen. It is much harder to commit a homicide without a firearm. Unlike England the U.S. has a massive gun culture behind it, and with the amount of guns circulating in the country, it would really be a severe problem to try and just remove guns from police officers when they are facing armed criminals on a daily basis. New York City has incredibly tough gun laws, I'm all for them not giving cops guns either. Show nested quote + Oh, and before saying nonsensical shit like 'WELL JUST BAN ALL GUNS' do realize that must of the firearms utilized in firearm related crimes are actually illegal and imported into the country. Not to mention firearm related crimes are at an all-time low.
I agree with you here. We're not allowed to turn this thread into a gun's rights, but I think that banning guns is largely unrealistic, it's also unconstitutional for us (and in my opinion counter-productive in fighting gun violence.) Show nested quote + In this particular instance, the rookie cop made a major mistake. That being said, whoever assigned two rookie cops to a high risk area is a fucking imbecile. No matter how short you are on officers, you never, ever, ever, ever, assign two rookies two such a high risk area by themselves. A rookie is going to make mistakes, no matter how you spin it. This was an accident waiting to happen that could have easily been prevented if the rookie was simply just assigned patrol with a veteran officer.
There are tons of incompetent cops in New York, because New York is ruled with an iron fist. Constant cracking down on non-violent crime creates too much work for police officers which results in a wider hiring and lower competency standards. Meanwhile, the non-violent criminals come out of prison often-times ready and willing to commit violent crimes. TLDR: War on drugs is a failure and all substances need to be decriminalized, so that we can fire a ton incompetent of law enforcement. Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 15:34 ZenithM wrote:On November 22 2014 16:44 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. LOL that isn't even close to equivalent... there's a reason home owners accidently shoot family members when they think an intruder is in their house.. they're jumpy as shit, it's dark and they're scared just like this cop appears to have been. a girl getting assaulted on purpose by a criminal is not an accident Problem is, shooting randomly your gun at something unseen shouldn't be the natural response to being afraid. Also, and this is probably more debatable, I would go as far as to say that as a member of a police force, you should man the fuck up and not be the one being afraid. You're supposed to protect people, not kill them out of being a sissy. When you have criminals that are armed with illegally imported fully automatic weapons, or high caliber hand guns that could crack somebody's ribs despite wearing a thick kevlar vest on, yeah, people tend to get jumpy. Society isn't perfect, and American society sure as hell isn't anywhere close to being perfect. The U.S. needs to do a much better job at regulating and controlling firearms, but we need to be somewhat realistic here, you're talking about a rookie cop with no veteran leading him in a high risk area well known for shootings/robberies/criminal activity in a low light setting, in a country that is notorious for it's relatively lax gun laws. This is bullshit. Who cares if it's a rookie cop? He just killed someone. He had his gun drawn while walking up a stairwell inside an apartment building... This shit is inexcusable. Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 16:52 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 16:44 Caihead wrote:On November 24 2014 15:22 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 14:23 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 01:15 wei2coolman wrote:On November 23 2014 22:09 TLCJR4LIFE wrote:On November 22 2014 16:18 Slaughter wrote: Lets not get out of hand here with the grand generalizations. I would really like to see larger scale stats (which are hard to get) for these type of things before you start saying "they seem to be occurring more and more" by which you mean "the media is hyping them recently so you actually hear about a few cases that get to be high profile". It shouldn't happen ever. Yet it seems to happen on a bi-weekly basis. Pigs executing people for little to no reason. What normal person just walks around with a drawn, loaded gun. Accidental discharge != execution You should never blindly believe the account of someone who wields a monopoly on the use of force. "Liang and Landau retreated deeper into the stairwell and waited five minutes to report the shooting " (http://nypost.com/2014/11/23/apparent-deadly-missteps-in-police-shooting-of-unarmed-man/) Instead of providing first aid or calling for medical help the officers decided to think up a cover story for their actions irregardless of the impact it would have on the civilian they had shot. Clearly, both of these officers should be tried and found guilty of first degree murder. 5 minutes? That sure is a short period of time, especially if you are in distress over you know....shooting someone (especially if you did not intend to). So how exactly would your system work? If you privatize security the average citizen is still giving up "the monopoly" of force, just to a different entity. How is this any different? How does this solve this kind of problem? The same possibilities for mistakes or abuse exist. Sorry what? Officers are supposed to buzz in as soon as possible after wounding anybody with their weapon or engaging in a fire fight, in case they need back up or an ambulance or just to report the situation. 5 minutes is life and death for anyone with a bullet wound, or the cops themselves if they are in danger. If you are in so much distress after firing your weapon as a cop that you can't just call it in, you shouldn't be a cop. Yes it is life or death, I was more arguing against his assertion that they used that time to "think up a cover story". I'm sure they spent some time talking to "get their story straight." It's probably not a cover up, since I doubt they intentionally killed the guy, if they did they would have fire off entire clips like they always do, but I'm sure they've omitted or exaggerated details to try to justify their actions as accidental. I wouldn't trust a report that says "very dark stairwell" down to every detail. edit: Show nested quote +On November 23 2014 23:18 docvoc wrote:On November 23 2014 16:21 Kiarip wrote: Government literally creates criminals by making non-violent crap illegal. Then all of a sudden they feel like they need a ton of police officers which results in a bunch of incompetent, fat, mentally unstable/handicapped officers resulting in worthless cowardly pieces of failure killing innocent people either "preemptively" out of cowardice or on a power-trip. Then in order to avoid heavy lawsuits the cities and municipalities pass laws and encourage the creation of rules of engagement which allow cops to treat humans like cattle, which only further attracts low-lifes to the job. To believe this, you'd have to believe that nothing would be illegal even in an anarchic state. I highly doubt you believe that is the true original position. What? How does this even follow? I'm not even an anarchist. I'm just saying that the government full-knowingly turns criminals out of non-violent individuals by making certain non-violent actions illegal. Then it uses high "estimated crime rates" as an excuse to expand the police force, which in turn reduces the competency level of the average police officer. In addition, it further justifies the expansion of the police force by demonstrating that prior expansions of the police force led to an increase in arrest and conviction rates. And in the end, to fully complete the vicious circle, they constantly push "hard on crime" policies which in reality only work to create more criminals either by expanding the definition of what a crime is (so that more people fit the definition of a criminal,) or by pushing harsher sentences on lighter criminals which only further pushes individuals into the life of crime.
New York has incredibly tough laws in comparison to the rest of the U.S., it still has incredibly laxed gun laws in comparison to the rest of the world.
The rookie cop made a mistake because of his extreme lack of training and being put in a situation he was doomed to fail at from the start. You cannot possibly expect him to make the right decision in such a situation. He needs to be held accountable, but one does have to remember that he shouldn't have been there with another rookie by himself in the first place.
Two, you don't know all the facts of this case. What if the rookie cop was responding to a emergency call regarding someone firing a firearm inside the apartment building? Or an armed robbery? Or anything else? It's not all cut and dry. Yes, he royally fucked up, but to judge him as utterly incompetent and solely place all the blame on him is absolutely ridiculous, especially when keyboard warriors like yourself probably would have pissed your pants in the same position.
Three, you're making huge leaps of logic here and making correlations without substantiating them with actual facts.
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On November 26 2014 05:09 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2014 17:41 Kiarip wrote:On November 24 2014 17:05 superstartran wrote:On November 24 2014 15:21 Manit0u wrote:On November 24 2014 14:49 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 14:36 MattBarry wrote:On November 24 2014 14:35 Vegetarian wrote: More evidence against central planning the product of security:
"In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members.
Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse." (http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-155/killings-by-utah-police-outpacing-gang?fullpage=1) Probably because there's no gangs in Utah (hyperbole). That's a pretty contrived example It was my understanding that the police are supposed to protect civilians from murder as opposed to committing 15% of all homicides in the given time frame. Simple solution to that. Just adopt the English way of doing it and don't give guns to the patrolling policemen. It is much harder to commit a homicide without a firearm. Unlike England the U.S. has a massive gun culture behind it, and with the amount of guns circulating in the country, it would really be a severe problem to try and just remove guns from police officers when they are facing armed criminals on a daily basis. New York City has incredibly tough gun laws, I'm all for them not giving cops guns either. Oh, and before saying nonsensical shit like 'WELL JUST BAN ALL GUNS' do realize that must of the firearms utilized in firearm related crimes are actually illegal and imported into the country. Not to mention firearm related crimes are at an all-time low.
I agree with you here. We're not allowed to turn this thread into a gun's rights, but I think that banning guns is largely unrealistic, it's also unconstitutional for us (and in my opinion counter-productive in fighting gun violence.) In this particular instance, the rookie cop made a major mistake. That being said, whoever assigned two rookie cops to a high risk area is a fucking imbecile. No matter how short you are on officers, you never, ever, ever, ever, assign two rookies two such a high risk area by themselves. A rookie is going to make mistakes, no matter how you spin it. This was an accident waiting to happen that could have easily been prevented if the rookie was simply just assigned patrol with a veteran officer.
There are tons of incompetent cops in New York, because New York is ruled with an iron fist. Constant cracking down on non-violent crime creates too much work for police officers which results in a wider hiring and lower competency standards. Meanwhile, the non-violent criminals come out of prison often-times ready and willing to commit violent crimes. TLDR: War on drugs is a failure and all substances need to be decriminalized, so that we can fire a ton incompetent of law enforcement. On November 24 2014 15:34 ZenithM wrote:On November 22 2014 16:44 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. LOL that isn't even close to equivalent... there's a reason home owners accidently shoot family members when they think an intruder is in their house.. they're jumpy as shit, it's dark and they're scared just like this cop appears to have been. a girl getting assaulted on purpose by a criminal is not an accident Problem is, shooting randomly your gun at something unseen shouldn't be the natural response to being afraid. Also, and this is probably more debatable, I would go as far as to say that as a member of a police force, you should man the fuck up and not be the one being afraid. You're supposed to protect people, not kill them out of being a sissy. When you have criminals that are armed with illegally imported fully automatic weapons, or high caliber hand guns that could crack somebody's ribs despite wearing a thick kevlar vest on, yeah, people tend to get jumpy. Society isn't perfect, and American society sure as hell isn't anywhere close to being perfect. The U.S. needs to do a much better job at regulating and controlling firearms, but we need to be somewhat realistic here, you're talking about a rookie cop with no veteran leading him in a high risk area well known for shootings/robberies/criminal activity in a low light setting, in a country that is notorious for it's relatively lax gun laws. This is bullshit. Who cares if it's a rookie cop? He just killed someone. He had his gun drawn while walking up a stairwell inside an apartment building... This shit is inexcusable. On November 24 2014 16:52 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 16:44 Caihead wrote:On November 24 2014 15:22 Slaughter wrote:On November 24 2014 14:23 Vegetarian wrote:On November 24 2014 01:15 wei2coolman wrote:On November 23 2014 22:09 TLCJR4LIFE wrote:On November 22 2014 16:18 Slaughter wrote: Lets not get out of hand here with the grand generalizations. I would really like to see larger scale stats (which are hard to get) for these type of things before you start saying "they seem to be occurring more and more" by which you mean "the media is hyping them recently so you actually hear about a few cases that get to be high profile". It shouldn't happen ever. Yet it seems to happen on a bi-weekly basis. Pigs executing people for little to no reason. What normal person just walks around with a drawn, loaded gun. Accidental discharge != execution You should never blindly believe the account of someone who wields a monopoly on the use of force. "Liang and Landau retreated deeper into the stairwell and waited five minutes to report the shooting " (http://nypost.com/2014/11/23/apparent-deadly-missteps-in-police-shooting-of-unarmed-man/) Instead of providing first aid or calling for medical help the officers decided to think up a cover story for their actions irregardless of the impact it would have on the civilian they had shot. Clearly, both of these officers should be tried and found guilty of first degree murder. 5 minutes? That sure is a short period of time, especially if you are in distress over you know....shooting someone (especially if you did not intend to). So how exactly would your system work? If you privatize security the average citizen is still giving up "the monopoly" of force, just to a different entity. How is this any different? How does this solve this kind of problem? The same possibilities for mistakes or abuse exist. Sorry what? Officers are supposed to buzz in as soon as possible after wounding anybody with their weapon or engaging in a fire fight, in case they need back up or an ambulance or just to report the situation. 5 minutes is life and death for anyone with a bullet wound, or the cops themselves if they are in danger. If you are in so much distress after firing your weapon as a cop that you can't just call it in, you shouldn't be a cop. Yes it is life or death, I was more arguing against his assertion that they used that time to "think up a cover story". I'm sure they spent some time talking to "get their story straight." It's probably not a cover up, since I doubt they intentionally killed the guy, if they did they would have fire off entire clips like they always do, but I'm sure they've omitted or exaggerated details to try to justify their actions as accidental. I wouldn't trust a report that says "very dark stairwell" down to every detail. edit: On November 23 2014 23:18 docvoc wrote:On November 23 2014 16:21 Kiarip wrote: Government literally creates criminals by making non-violent crap illegal. Then all of a sudden they feel like they need a ton of police officers which results in a bunch of incompetent, fat, mentally unstable/handicapped officers resulting in worthless cowardly pieces of failure killing innocent people either "preemptively" out of cowardice or on a power-trip. Then in order to avoid heavy lawsuits the cities and municipalities pass laws and encourage the creation of rules of engagement which allow cops to treat humans like cattle, which only further attracts low-lifes to the job. To believe this, you'd have to believe that nothing would be illegal even in an anarchic state. I highly doubt you believe that is the true original position. What? How does this even follow? I'm not even an anarchist. I'm just saying that the government full-knowingly turns criminals out of non-violent individuals by making certain non-violent actions illegal. Then it uses high "estimated crime rates" as an excuse to expand the police force, which in turn reduces the competency level of the average police officer. In addition, it further justifies the expansion of the police force by demonstrating that prior expansions of the police force led to an increase in arrest and conviction rates. And in the end, to fully complete the vicious circle, they constantly push "hard on crime" policies which in reality only work to create more criminals either by expanding the definition of what a crime is (so that more people fit the definition of a criminal,) or by pushing harsher sentences on lighter criminals which only further pushes individuals into the life of crime. New York has incredibly tough laws in comparison to the rest of the U.S., it still has incredibly laxed gun laws in comparison to the rest of the world. The rookie cop made a mistake because of his extreme lack of training and being put in a situation he was doomed to fail at from the start. You cannot possibly expect him to make the right decision in such a situation. He needs to be held accountable, but one does have to remember that he shouldn't have been there with another rookie by himself in the first place. Two, you don't know all the facts of this case. What if the rookie cop was responding to a emergency call regarding someone firing a firearm inside the apartment building? Or an armed robbery? Or anything else? It's not all cut and dry. Yes, he royally fucked up, but to judge him as utterly incompetent and solely place all the blame on him is absolutely ridiculous, especially when keyboard warriors like yourself probably would have pissed your pants in the same position. Three, you're making huge leaps of logic here and making correlations without substantiating them with actual facts.
No I agree, it's not just his fault, it's also the fault of the people that trained him, the people that sent him there with another rookie, the people that hired him, the fault of the people that created rules of engagement for cops that allow them to do things that a civilian with a gun would be arrested for and the fault of the people that expanded new york's police-force to the size of a small army of inevitably incompetent egotistical sociopaths.
Still a manslaughter, but I'm all for sending the rest of them to rot in hell.
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edit: oops thought this was on the new page sorry.
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On November 22 2014 16:23 killa_robot wrote: Was an accident, but he needs to be criminally charged for it. Don't think it's really related to the other police shootings though, given none of those were claimed to be accidents.
You should never accidentally shoot someone, and a police officer should not have his gun out when no reported crime is in progress whatsoever.
I'll be shocked if he isn't charged with at least 2nd degree murder.
The only really sad issue is that people bring race into it when it's rarely the issue.
Just some idiot that shouldn't be allowed to wield a weapon. Like most people in the USA
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this isn't by any means a death that had any malicious intent or any hate agenda.
the police department's regime was to train rookie officers by pairing them with senior. out of all places you could give them experience, don't give them one at a place that is pitch black, a high crime rate and a project house. does it suck a life was lost because of this unfortunate incident? yeah absolutely. does this deserve a higher priority on the newsfeed? no.
i'm sure a large majority is going to misinterpret this as a hate crime due to the fact the murderer was a police officer and the victim was a black man.
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On November 26 2014 22:48 saocyn wrote: this isn't by any means a death that had any malicious intent or any hate agenda.
the police department's regime was to train rookie officers by pairing them with senior. out of all places you could give them experience, don't give them one at a place that is pitch black, a high crime rate and a project house. does it suck a life was lost because of this unfortunate incident? yeah absolutely. does this deserve a higher priority on the newsfeed? no.
i'm sure a large majority is going to misinterpret this as a hate crime due to the fact the murderer was a police officer and the victim was a black man. No-one here actually interprets it as a hate crime. Most people wonder why that person was walking around with his gun drawn.
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On November 22 2014 16:47 Duncan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. "Whoops, I accidentally assaulted this girl due to hazardous circumstances!" -Rapist
haha good one
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On November 27 2014 00:43 JieXian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2014 16:47 Duncan wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. "Whoops, I accidentally assaulted this girl due to hazardous circumstances!" -Rapist haha good one
so only women can be raped now? I learn something new everyday.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 27 2014 01:12 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2014 00:43 JieXian wrote:On November 22 2014 16:47 Duncan wrote:On November 22 2014 16:43 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 16:41 Shebuha wrote:On November 22 2014 16:40 FiWiFaKi wrote:On November 22 2014 15:43 wei2coolman wrote: Rookie cop, project housing that is known for high crime rate with poor maintenance leading to low visibility. It's an accident waiting to happen. WHAT THE FUCK?!? Holy shit, sorry about the caps, but holy shit, you think that justifies anything? Geez, with that logic everything is an accident waiting to happen. Cannot believe you'd respond like that as someone who's been around teamliquid for a couple years. take a chill pill bruh lol If this is an accident waiting to happen, then a girl getting raped every time she goes outside after 9pm is an accident waiting to happen. I just... bleh, I don't expect such ignorant views from frequent users of TL. "Whoops, I accidentally assaulted this girl due to hazardous circumstances!" -Rapist haha good one so only women can be raped now? I learn something new everyday.
???
Nobody said that, or suggested that, or said anything that could remotely be interpreted as suggesting that. Take the chip off your shoulder.
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Interesting thread and it seems that a lot of people foresee Liang (police officer) being tried for murder rather than manslaughter. I've no idea about how New York specifically differentiates between Murder/Manslaughter but based on the Wikipedia definitions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_%28United_States_law%29) I can't imagine him anyone being able to prove that he had malice aforethought which rules out a murder charge?
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I think most people here are saying he'll be tried for manslaughter, which makes sense. I hope for the love of god this isn't made into a race issue by the media, been getting enough of that shit lately. Dude's asian, so that should help. What I do want to know is what changes are being made to the police force. I mean, this kind of stuff has been being brought to the attention of the public a lot more, and it can't be good for the police. Are there any changes incoming concerning qualifications for hiring or officer training? I can't expect something huge like changes on gun law, but something must be happening, right?
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Also would love to see some statistics about how often US police's guns are discharged versus how often it results in an innocent person dying. Seems to be a lot of news about police shooting innocent people but I'm assuming they provide a net benefit (i.e. do more good by preventing crimes than damage they do by shooting innocent people) or else they would have been scrapped by now?
If the US Media continues on its current route of hyping up police-driven mistakes and negligent behaviour will there be a point where people just decide it's not worth it to become a police officer? Or will the standard of police officer drop because people realise it seems ridiculous to take an underpaid job where you walk around nervously in dangerous areas without the ability to use your weapon for fear of accidentally shooting a civilian?
And if the quality (or overall quantity) of police drops is the entire USA better or worse off?
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i dont understand the shoot first ask questions later policy. somehow officer being scared justifies their actions, if an officer gets scared and act hastily without thought that leads to unfortunate events, why are they field officers in the first place? such people should be confined to desk jobs. is it a popular job because of hazard pay and any type of coward can become an officer? shouldnt officers be proud that they're putting their life on the line for others? yet it seems they put their life first before others. (shooting without confirming has happened coutnless times and they're all justified with "officer FELT threatened") i find this to be disgraceful behavior and even more so at the administrators that doesn't put any strict guild lines and do their best to protect their own interests/employees.
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On November 29 2014 08:16 jinorazi wrote: i dont understand the shoot first ask questions later policy. somehow officer being scared justifies their actions, if an officer gets scared and act hastily without thought that leads to unfortunate events, why are they field officers in the first place? such people should be confined to desk jobs. is it a popular job because of hazard pay and any type of coward can become an officer? shouldnt officers be proud that they're putting their life on the line for others? yet it seems they put their life first before others. (shooting without confirming has happened coutnless times and they're all justified with "officer FELT threatened") i find this to be disgraceful behavior and even more so at the administrators that doesn't put any strict guild lines and do their best to protect their own interests/employees.
It doesn't help that they think they are walking into one of the most dangerous workplaces, when in reality it's pretty far from even making the top 10 most dangerous jobs. This is just a symptom of a larger problem.
A lot of bad policing stems from an inability to accurately assess and handle threats. Whether it's no-knocking an innocent persons house and shooting them or an innocent family pet, or shooting a 12 year old with a pellet gun because they thought it was a 20 year old with a real gun it stems from simply not being trained to/able to deal with assessing and eliminating threats.
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100% on board with cops needing 2-3 years of Community relations/sociology courses before being allowed to carry a gun.
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