I can't believe i actually read all 24 pages.. and I have come to this conclusion I'm in love with Mayson.
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Yes, vote Ron Paul! (do you support him Mayson??)
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I suppose I should contribute. In Singapore guns are illegal and generally the crime rate is pretty low. But on the flip side we are a police state without the kinds of freedoms that are enjoyed in the US.
I've served in the Singapore military for 2 and half years as well, so guns aren't foreign to me at all.
I do support Ron Paul, although there are certain things he's for that I completely disagree with. However, there's not one candidate running for the 2008 presidency I fully agree with.
The reason gun control works in Singapore is because of other factors. I guarantee you it would be difficult to prove that the lack of guns itself is the cause.
To prove causation, one must first have two very, very similar samples, both of which are representative of the overall population being tested.
Then, two conditions must be applied to it: one with guns, one without.
Then, once all confounding variables have been checked for, is there a difference? Typically, the answer is that it's intellectual fraud to compare two countries.
See, take any two countries, and compare them. You have different population sizes, different population distributions, such as a higher concentration of people in a given area, different crime rates, and different types of crime.
So now you can't directly compare them. This is why comparisons of the US to other countries is useless. There's no statistically-significant conclusions that can be drawn from the comparison, making correlation relationship and causation impossible to prove.
This is why many studies done within the US often try to compare two similar areas of the country, where many aspects of each given area is similar. Cramer did a study in 1990 that was published in "American Rifleman" that accurately explains this.
Summary: There is no correlation between gun control laws, lax or strict, and crime. This means that gun control laws themselves do little to change the behavior of those defined by not following the laws.
On December 08 2007 22:36 kroko wrote: This week I read from newspaper that, according to Harvard study the murder rates are higher in states were the gunlaws are 'easier'(dunno correct english word..TT). Weird isnt it ?
Any chance you could tell me the name of the study?
On December 08 2007 15:11 qgart wrote: So mayson, are you ever going to answer my post or keep on repeating you "law-abiding" crap over and over again?
Mayson is correct in emphasizing the legality. He is implying that gun control seeks to pass laws which are aimed at people who do not follow laws. I find myself making similar arguments on immigration policy. It seems when current laws aren't enforced, there is a component of society which seeks to patch things up by creating more laws, regardless the fact that the problem is enforcement, not codification. I'm not trying to aligns Mayson's views to mine in regards to immigration; the rationale is similar, though.
For the record, I do agree with you.
It's really a shame people don't understand simple logic.
Take anything. Let's take teddy bears.
Flood the market with teddy bears. Everyone buys them; lots of people own them, including criminals. Now, ban them. Citizens don't want to give them up, but they don't want to become a criminal, so they give in. The criminals don't care, haven't cared, and don't give them up.
Now the only people with teddy bears are the criminals.
Cocaine, heroine, marijuana, etc., are all illegal. Does the status of something being illegal make any difference? No. Why? Something must be enforced for it to have an impact.
Oh, and I admit I was wrong in one area. Banning guns does help:
Too bad it helps the fucking criminals.
If you ban guns, you restrict citizens themselves to protect themselves if criminals such as US Terrorists, or even the guy that started the shooting at the mall want to start a shooting, they just need a little money, or even drugs, to get what they want ILLEGALLY its not that hard -.- Obviously for citizens, if you want to be a good person, you dont want to buy guns Illegally just for your protection, might as well get caught by the law
Bingo.
Citizens aren't illegally buying guns for their own defense, typically. That's what criminals do.
so your basing stating that if guns are banned: Criminals and Authority are the only ones left with guns = weak citizins that will get abused by criminals and possibly totalitarian authority?
but if production of guns stop, at one point criminals (not organized crime, because they have enough ressources to import anything, but violence and shootings dont really affect regular citizens, except for the odd occasion of being at the wrong place at the wrong time) the ones that cause most civil incidents, poor and desperate, wont be able to get guns and will be to expensive to get them through the black market, which automatically will lead to less dead innocent people that were a victim in a crime. This obviously does not reduce crime, but neither does having more guns because crime was not invented by the people who inveted guns, CRIME NEEDS TO BE SOLVED AT A SOCIAL LEVEL. And having a totalitarian gouverment that might take advantage of this position on its own citizens is NOT CAUSED BY GUN CONTROL, it is caused by people being divided and weak and missinformend about who they elect and who they listen. So the whole things comes down to a very vague and social problem, were people need to fight the root of society and things need to be changed in many diferent fields, but ALLOWING guns for everyone will no reduce crime, at least not in the long term, until crime adapts itself some other way, wich it always does throught the first day man walked. So thats why your an idiot because you think guns can stop crime. A gun can stop A crime (maybe), but it cant stop CRIME itself.
ill rephrase this better after my exam, but hopefully you understood my point of view, even though i aint no specialist.
you just don't fight violence with more violence, how many times does that need to be said for people to understand that.
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
On December 09 2007 03:43 uiCk wrote: so your basing stating that if guns are banned: Criminals and Authority are the only ones left with guns = weak citizins that will get abused by criminals and possibly totalitarian authority?
but if production of guns stop, at one point criminals (not organized crime, because they have enough ressources to import anything, but violence and shootings dont really affect regular citizens, except for the odd occasion of being at the wrong place at the wrong time) the ones that cause most civil incidents, poor and desperate, wont be able to get guns and will be to expensive to get them through the black market, which automatically will lead to less dead innocent people that were a victim in a crime. This obviously does not reduce crime, but neither does having more guns because crime was not invented by the people who inveted guns, CRIME NEEDS TO BE SOLVED AT A SOCIAL LEVEL. And having a totalitarian gouverment that might take advantage of this position on its own citizens is NOT CAUSED BY GUN CONTROL, it is caused by people being divided and weak and missinformend about who they elect and who they listen. So the whole things comes down to a very vague and social problem, were people need to fight the root of society and things need to be changed in many diferent fields, but ALLOWING guns for everyone will no reduce crime, at least not in the long term, until crime adapts itself some other way, wich it always does throught the first day man walked. So thats why your an idiot because you think guns can stop crime. A gun can stop A crime (maybe), but it cant stop CRIME itself.
ill rephrase this better after my exam, but hopefully you understood my point of view, even though i aint no specialist.
you just don't fight violence with more violence, how many times does that need to be said for people to understand that.
So you advocate non-violent means of responding to violence?
Sorry, I don't roll over, play dead, and curl up into a fetal position when my life is on the line. I ensure my own safety by whatever means necessary. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
I don't know why so many people in favor of gun control here can't read. There is no evidence that suggests a gun ban would work.
Criminals, by definition, do not follows the laws. There are already gun control laws in place. Criminals aren't following them. The laws need to be better enforced.
The production or sale of firearms to law-abiding citizens has never been an issue. The illegal sale of firearms from FFLs to criminals and arms traffickers is a problem, but instead of addressing the problem, gun control supporters would much rather just ban them outright.
That'll fix the problem, as I'm sure when you implement a gun ban, criminals would suddenly cease their predictable pattern of behavior, and immediately begin following the new laws.
The problem is not the legal firearms available to law-abiding citizens. The problem has never been that. The problem is that criminals are able to acquire firearms. Whether it be illegal sales directly from FFLs, straw purchases, theft from private and public entities, or illegal sales from arms traffickers (who typically get them from FFLs), criminals can, and will still get firearms.
Disarming the law-abiding leaves them open to attack. Instead of attempting to stop both legal and illegal sale of firearms by attacking the FFLs, attacking the illegal sale of firearms directly is the solution.
Please note that FFLs misuing their licenses are in the overwhelmingly small minority. Not all FFLs are corrupt; just a select few "bad apples."
Shut the fuck you condescending(me 2) piece of shit, you're extremely fucking one sided in all your arguements, so much that i can't imagine how smart you believe you are.
You talk like you just presented a genius take on every topic, even if you come up with arguements that are weak as fuck and has a ton of holes in them. And when someone points those holes out you make up some extremely vague counter arguement that sucks, or you just ignore it.
Then you of course make another shitty post like nothing happend directly afterwards, like you're still completely right, please get the fuck out of your imaginary world you pseudo intellectual piece of shit.
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
1. I'm not trolling. Just because I have consistently supported my statement with facts, figures, and statistics from the Department of Justice, and various non-profit organizations with no overt political orientation doesn't make me a troll.
If I was a troll, Hot_Bid, FakeSteve, or any of the other competent mods probably would have spoken to me already. I've received no such communications.
2. I dare you to find one unbiased source that disproves anything I've said. I'm directly calling you out, and challenging you.
I'd suggest we bet on this, but that would be overkill. I don't want to gain anything from your ignorance of the facts.
First, start with the Department of Justice in the US. You will find that law-abiding citizens do not contribute to crime. CHL holders have a crime rate five times lower than that of criminals, which is lower than the crime rate of law enforcement officers in many areas.
Second, look at statisticians' reports and criminologists' reports. You will find nothing that supports your point of view.
Third, I will give you one source that supports your point of view. Kellerman did a study a while back that resulted in the famous 43:1 ratio, demonstrating how dangerous guns are to citizens. The best part is that his own theory proves that guns are significantly less dangerous than other things commonly found in a home, or in close proximity to one.
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
I don't think he's retarded.
Don't tell me a rapist would risk his life on a woman who may carry a concealed firearm. He'd have much more confidence in carrying out his wicked deed knowing that his victim only had a pepper spray or knew martial arts (heh what a joke).
And he's repeatedly quoted real sources to back up the assertion that gun control does not reduce crime (even increasing crime in certain states).
On December 09 2007 04:02 MarklarMarklar wrote: Shut the fuck you condescending(me 2) piece of shit, you're extremely fucking one sided in all your arguements, so much that i can't imagine how smart you believe you are.
You talk like you just presented a genius take on every topic, even if you come up with arguements that are weak as fuck and has a ton of holes in them. And when someone points those holes out you make up some extremely vague counter arguement that sucks, or you just ignore it.
Then you of course make another shitty post like nothing happend directly afterwards, like you're still completely right, please get the fuck out of your imaginary world you pseudo intellectual piece of shit.
I'm so smug about all of this because, frankly, gun control is a baseless, foundation-less point of view. The only "facts" that support your point of view are fabrications, or cleverly cited statistics out of context, conveniently ignoring the confounding variables.
Numbers can't lie. You are the only one with silly arguments here.
You think that if a la decides to ban guns from society the US will suddenly become like resident evil. Armless people except for a few ones, against the evil zombies. Truth is most people with a gun don't know how to use it. Truth is there are a lot of accidents with guns because people without training have them. Truth is your so praised entities that should check that people with the power to have a gun know how to use it, don't really do their job.
Criminals get hold of guns easily because laws give them easy access to them.
If you want to lower the criminal rates, you don't get your population scared and give them guns. Its a stupid solution. You educate the sectors where criminals come from. Because most of them don't become criminals for fun, they just don't see another (easier) way out of their situation.
Anyone ever notice that its always people from other countries (where guns aren't allowed) that like to argue about whether or not gunless society is good or bad?
Mind your own business. What do you care if us stupid americans have guns to kill each other? Its doesn't effect you one bit. I think you're just jealous of our simple freedom.
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
1. I'm not trolling. Just because I have consistently supported my statement with facts, figures, and statistics from the Department of Justice, and various non-profit organizations with no overt political orientation doesn't make me a troll.
If I was a troll, Hot_Bid, FakeSteve, or any of the other competent mods probably would have spoken to me already. I've received no such communications.
2. I dare you to find one unbiased source that disproves anything I've said. I'm directly calling you out, and challenging you.
I'd suggest we bet on this, but that would be overkill. I don't want to gain anything from your ignorance of the facts.
First, start with the Department of Justice in the US. You will find that law-abiding citizens do not contribute to crime. CHL holders have a crime rate five times lower than that of criminals, which is lower than the crime rate of law enforcement officers in many areas.
Second, look at statisticians' reports and criminologists' reports. You will find nothing that supports your point of view.
Third, I will give you one source that supports your point of view. Kellerman did a study a while back that resulted in the famous 43:1 ratio, demonstrating how dangerous guns are to citizens. The best part is that his own theory proves that guns are significantly less dangerous than other things commonly found in a home, or in close proximity to one.
Is this a homework assignment? I'm not going to argue about something like guns when it's so painfully obvious they serve no good purpose. They're made to hurt and that is what they do. The 43:1 ratio alone should be reason enough for citizens NEVER to own a firearm.
The best part is that his own theory proves that guns are significantly less dangerous than other things commonly found in a home, or in close proximity to one
How is that a proper argument? You're just steering the subject away from guns, other things commonly found in a home serve a purpose while the purpose of a gun is to inflict pain/death.
On December 09 2007 04:27 CharlieMurphy wrote: Anyone ever notice that its always people from other countries (where guns aren't allowed) that like to argue about whether or not gunless society is good or bad?
Mind your own business. What do you care if us stupid americans have guns to kill each other? Its doesn't effect you one bit. I think you're just jealous of our simple freedom.
Yeah we're so jealous of your freedom I think I'm just gonna go to a hooker legally and make her forget my huge jealousy of you being able to buy guns and then I'll legally smoke some pot. Goddamn my limited freedom.
Seriously though, poverty in also Africa doesn't affect us, that doesn't mean we can't care.
On December 09 2007 04:27 CharlieMurphy wrote: Anyone ever notice that its always people from other countries (where guns aren't allowed) that like to argue about whether or not gunless society is good or bad?
Mind your own business. What do you care if us stupid americans have guns to kill each other? Its doesn't effect you one bit. I think you're just jealous of our simple freedom.
Unfortunately, USA's guns business has a lot to do with the world and not just your country.
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
I don't think he's retarded.
Don't tell me a rapist would risk his life on a woman who may carry a concealed firearm. He'd have much more confidence in carrying out his wicked deed knowing that his victim only had a pepper spray or knew martial arts (heh what a joke).
And he's repeatedly quoted real sources to back up the assertion that gun control does not reduce crime (even increasing crime in certain states).
Exactly.
Criminals are deterred from committing a crime when they know their target may have guns. Don't believe me?
- Criminals are more afraid of confronting a potential victim with a gun than they are of the police. *U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985)
- 3/5 of convicted felons say they would not “mess around” with a person they suspected might have a gun. *U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, "The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons," Research Report (July 1985)
It's funny because everyone here understands why it's rediculous except you.
ps. I love your sig.
girlthatgetsraped: "would you hold on a sec while I get a gun out of my purse dear rapist that is holding a knife to my throat"
rapist: "sure thing ma'am!, meanwhile I'll put on a condom because I wouldnt possibly want to get you pregnant!"
*high five*
Statistical fact: for or against guns, everyone here thinks you're retarded. Why anyone here is actually trying to argue with such on obvious troll is beyond me.
1. I'm not trolling. Just because I have consistently supported my statement with facts, figures, and statistics from the Department of Justice, and various non-profit organizations with no overt political orientation doesn't make me a troll.
If I was a troll, Hot_Bid, FakeSteve, or any of the other competent mods probably would have spoken to me already. I've received no such communications.
2. I dare you to find one unbiased source that disproves anything I've said. I'm directly calling you out, and challenging you.
I'd suggest we bet on this, but that would be overkill. I don't want to gain anything from your ignorance of the facts.
First, start with the Department of Justice in the US. You will find that law-abiding citizens do not contribute to crime. CHL holders have a crime rate five times lower than that of criminals, which is lower than the crime rate of law enforcement officers in many areas.
Second, look at statisticians' reports and criminologists' reports. You will find nothing that supports your point of view.
Third, I will give you one source that supports your point of view. Kellerman did a study a while back that resulted in the famous 43:1 ratio, demonstrating how dangerous guns are to citizens. The best part is that his own theory proves that guns are significantly less dangerous than other things commonly found in a home, or in close proximity to one.
Is this a homework assignment? I'm not going to argue about something like guns when it's so painfully obvious they serve no good purpose. They're made to hurt and that is what they do. The 43:1 ratio alone should be reason enough for citizens NEVER to own a firearm.
The best part is that his own theory proves that guns are significantly less dangerous than other things commonly found in a home, or in close proximity to one
How is that a proper argument? You're just steering the subject away from guns, other things commonly found in a home serve a purpose while the purpose of a gun is to inflict pain/death.
Sigh.
There is only one study with supports your point of view. The theory the major point said study is based on is inherently confounded due to unaccounted variables.
Quoting an inherently confounded statistic is statistically-insignificant.
On December 09 2007 04:14 IntoTheWow wrote: "statistics out of context" lol thats a new one.
Numbers can't lie. You are the only one with silly arguments here.
You think that if a la decides to ban guns from society the US will suddenly become like resident evil. Armless people except for a few ones, against the evil zombies. Truth is most people with a gun don't know how to use it. Truth is there are a lot of accidents with guns because people without training have them. Truth is your so praised entities that should check that people with the power to have a gun know how to use it, don't really do their job.
Criminals get hold of guns easily because laws give them easy access to them.
Criminals don't have easy access to guns because the laws give them easy access. That's completely asinine.
Criminals have access to guns because they are not bound by laws, hence their label.
Edit: Legal access to firearms present a short series of "hurdles," if you will. These "hurdles" are perceived as necessary by law-abiding citizens. Criminals don't care one way or the other, as they'll do whatever they need to to get a firearm if they want one.
Their pattern of behavior shows that they do not act within the laws.